Shenmue IV Will Happen - Here's Why!

[Suzaku]

You would be very hard pressed to name me something that Shenmue did, apart from visuals, that Majora's Mask or Ultima 9 (both released around the same time) didn't do. The closest analogue is Cyberpunk which tried to marry the scope and simulation of GTA with the graphical fidelity of an FPS. Simply put: there is a reason that developers make compromises.

Instead it's easy, Majora's for example didn't have fully voiced characters with a complex dialogue system, nor NPC with routines.
Ultima 9 was one of the chapters to not feature simple npc schedule iirc, and I don't remember every character being fully voiced, but I should check.

Like I said It's hard if not impossible to find a game like Shenmue that do all these things and more at the same time.
Maybe Skyrim is really the only one that comes near, but it still lacks some other things.

Dunkey makes money by being funny, trustworthy, and having very informed opinions of the games he features. He's an entertainer first but that is almost always backed up solid takes. He's not just a troll, basically.

From what I remember, wolf and dunkey takes were far from solid...

The brand power came from those games. The mainline Mario entries are of some of the most consistent quality in the entire industry spanning multiple generations. I would agree that Nintendo (and now From Software) games have a tendency to be graded on a curve (ie: Dark Souls 3 an only really be said to deserve a perfect score if you like Dark Souls) but that's just because the audience is large and consistent with their tastes. Mario games sell tens of millions of copies, so obviously that audience's tastes count for something. Shenmue 3 can't really be said to be "perfect if you like Shenmue" since a sizeable chunk of Shenmue fans dislike it.

Brand power comes from economic power, not from quality. Quality alone hardly sells.
Nintendo is good at selling, the fact the games are also good and consistent is secondary (look at Activision, EA, Ubisoft etc.).
Once you have the brand power you can make the world believe that Mario, Fortnite or Call of duty are the best games around and the standards.
Same with Marvel movies, music, the food industry, basically everything.

 

[japalp]

For any prospective publisher, the only rating that matters is sales. As much as we can talk about some of the bad luck that has happened in Shenmue’s history, it clearly wasn’t a huge hit from a sales perspective. Every game deals with issues when released.

I happened to enjoy Shenmue 3 a lot. It was a pleasure to play after waiting 18 years or whatever. But the reality is, a lot of people don’t like it. Regardless if all of these streamers hated on it, if the game was appealing to more people, it would have sold better. It obviously wasn’t that appealing. I don’t think it ever will be unless they completely overhaul the game which it wouldn’t be Shenmue at that point.

We had a chance with the anime, which actually was well received, to at least finish the story but it seems it wasn’t meant to be. I think the best thing would be a manga. The only way this continues in videogame format is if they let us fans help fund episodes or some other alternative funding method. I hope I am wrong.

 

[iknifaugood]

By the same logic, one couldn't say "Shenmue 3 is awful" since a sizeable chunk of fans like it. Personally I find myself thinking its really good game every time I play it (New Game+ really enhances the experience imho).

What I meant by this is the "curve" that allows a game like, say, Dark Souls 3, to be given a perfect score. Obviously it's not a game for everyone and obviously not every fan thinks it's perfect but generally speaking there's a consensus of its quality among the fanbase that those reviews reflect. If you like Soulslike games, DS3 is a really good example of one. Shenmue doesn't have this luxury because Shenmue clearly means different things to different fans. There is no consensus over what Shenmue even "is".

To name a few, the way It dragged a player (talking about someone who liked the game premise) was unmatched until many years later

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Like I said It's hard if not impossible to find a game like Shenmue that do all these things and more at the same time.

That's the point of my Cyberpunk example; there's a reason that games compromise. Shenmue tried to have it all which doomed it to a certain budget threshold; you simply cannot make a Shenmue game in line with the DC games, even today, on a tight budget; you need to radically change the formula to accommodate the size of the audience.

Brand power comes from economic power, not from quality. Quality alone hardly sells.

This is true to a certain extent but there still needs to be a baseline level of quality and consistency. Say what you want about Call of Duty but they pump out a full campaign, multiple online modes, with high production value and stable performance every year. If they stopped meeting those standards, people would stop playing (just look at what happened to Halo).

The only way this continues in videogame format is if they let us fans help fund episodes

Even this would depend largely on interest/budget if you're talking about using S3 as a basis.

 

[Seaman]

@iknifaugood I meant the way Shenmue took me into its world due the range of events, possibilities (i.e. opening drawers in order to find a box of matches or a move scroll) and such. Prior to that, was FFVII and Half Life in my case. Those hit me hard too, but nothing in comparison with Shenmue.

Now I understand better your point with the Souls example and the lack of concensus about what Shenmue is (adventure? RPG? Simulation? Something else?) and reminds me another piece of art which its widely liked or hated: Kill Bill. I named It before, a joke for some, a bigoted violent trash I read somewhere, a copy of many movies... and to others like me one of the best martial arts movies ever, because it touches the correct keys. There's a line of thought which I've found with Kill Bill that reminds me the case of Shenmue. For example, some people say "wtf she (Beatrix Kiddo) boarded a plane along her katana? And the seat has a slot for it? That doesn't makes any sense?" Meanwhile others smile at that scene and think "oh that's great". Because its the world that Tarantino (or Yu Suzuki in our debate) has concieved.

 

[iknifaugood]

I meant the way Shenmue took me into its world due the range of events, possibilities (i.e. opening drawers in order to find a box of matches or a move scroll) and such. Prior to that, was FFVII and Half Life in my case. Those hit me hard too, but nothing in comparison with Shenmue.

Yes Shenmue was undoubtedly extremely immersive at the time, particularly because of its focus on graphical detail (which includes all the superfluous interactions like opening drawers, entering shops etc.) and its realistic setting. People cite similar things regarding Red Dead Redemption 2.

and reminds me another piece of art which its widely liked or hated: Kill Bill. I named It before, a joke for some, a bigoted violent trash I read somewhere, a copy of many movies...

Your example of Kill Bill is a good one but it's far more consistent than Shenmue. It can be seen as a "joke" because it's frequently funny and is highly stylized. It can be seen as violent trash because it very deliberately has gratuitous violence that Tarantino himself describes as "so much fun!" (I don't think I've ever heard it described as bigoted, though). It can be seen as a copy of many movies because it's made up of almost nothing but homages or references to other movies. These are all deliberate choices that Tarantino made and put into the movie that contribute to its overall tone.

and to others like me one of the best martial arts movies ever, because it touches the correct keys.

You're correct.

some people say "wtf she (Beatrix Kiddo) boarded a plane along her katana? And the seat has a slot for it? That doesn't makes any sense?" Meanwhile others smile at that scene and think "oh that's great". Because its the world that Tarantino (or Yu Suzuki in our debate) has concieved

You're right but Kill Bill is very clearly stylized and is not supposed to be "realistic" or taken super-seriously. If people seriously have a problem with that then they would surely take issue with The Bride single handedly cutting through dozens of bodyguards or a million other choices that contribute to the overall tone of Kill Bill. Contrast that with why Shenmue has terrible English voice acting. Suzuki is clearly making that choice with Shenmue 3...why? Is it supposed to be funny? Are we supposed to be enjoying it ironically?

 

[Seaman]

Suzuki is clearly making that choice with Shenmue 3...why? Is it supposed to be funny? Are we supposed to be enjoying it ironically?

Hmm i dont know... I can only guess about taking it as another ingredient to that fictional universe and create some continuity? Similar to how Silent Hill 2 voice acting improved over the original but kept that neutral or almost dead "off" voice tone?
Your guess is as good as mine. Personally I find Shenmue english dub akward and I kind of like it (probably because I consider myself an akward person) but prefering the japanese dub for "serious" playthrough which in contrast sounds awesome and a plus for inmersion.
Now that reminds me, Yu Suzuki its a person with a reputed akward sense of humor (enjoying fart jokes, the comments about Chao and female players...) even his staff went mute sometimes after some barbarity coming out his mouth XD.

About the Kill Bill polemics and loud labels, I've did read about it at some spanish sites but now I realize that delving into this would just derail the duscussion.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

@BruceWayne911 do you think YSNet is looking for a bigger budget for shenmue 4 that’s why it’s probably not in development

 

[thedemon1238]

I read some comments on the subject in which the game budgets in the 90s were given as an example. In my opinion, Shenmue is a game that should be considered 6th generation, not 5th. For example "Development of Final Fantasy X began in 1999, with a budget of more than $32.3 million ($56.7 million in 2022 dollars) and a team of more than 100 people." Not so far away from 47 million, right? :) Not to say that Shenmue is literally more like a 7th generation game in some aspects. I'm not talking about the textures and polygons, but rather the scale of the details.

Also, yeah, maybe Shenmue III is not a big seller, but it's hardly a bad game. Most of the people that didn't like it didn't give it a chance (under 5 hours) or didn't play it at all. They are listening blindly influencers and youtubers. The marketing of the game was really bad or not enough money was given... Exactly this game needs videos in which to explain to the average gamer what is special about it, etc.

The third thing I want to talk about is the dialogue. Ever wondered why there's always a problem with English dialogue and never Japanese? You know that Shenmue has a lot of dialogue and voiced lines. Yu Suzuki wanted to have a variety of lines that would not be repeated. For example when Ryu asks something, he asks 3 different ways each time at random. Let's say that an NPC also responds in 3 different ways. I'm not very good at math, but I think there are 9 different question+answer options. (Question 1-Answer1, Question1-Answer2....Question2-Answer3.....) If you just record them down as whole dialogues, they will be less.(maybe 3 instead of 9) This is where I think the English localization problem comes in and that's why you get unnatural responses. They tried to save dubbing dialogue, a technique that works in Japanese but in English either doesn't work or the translators can't pick the right words where unnatural responses don't come out. Or it just requires more work to check that all options sound natural.

Let's not pretend that only Shenmue in the 90s had a low-budget dubbing. Almost all games sounds pretty bad until 2003-2005. Also Shenmue 3 has a huge improvement in the voice acting. Corey sounds better than ever. The actress who voices Shenhua is very popular in gaming and is considered very good... Even the NPCs sound more than good. But again there's unchecked variation of the random resposes.... The actors didn't even realize how this system use one question/response in different sentences.

 

[BruceWayne911]

@BruceWayne911 do you think YSNet is looking for a bigger budget for shenmue 4 that’s why it’s probably not in development

Anything is possible but I have my doubts.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

@BruceWayne911 do you think 110 industries were just trolling us?

 

[BruceWayne911]

@BruceWayne911 do you think 110 industries were just trolling us?

Yep

 

[Suzaku]

Personally I think Nintendo brand power comes from their awesome support to their platforms. Only Wii U pops to my mind in terms of short lived/abandoned console by them and that was due major backslash practically everywhere. Back at the day, Nintendo was supporting three consoles simultaneously (4 counting handhelds) while Sega in the other hand -which I always considered myself a fan and costumer- arrived at 128bit with three consoles abandoned in a row (5 counting handhelds). Similar to Nintendo, if one wanted their new line of releases, getting their new console was a must. Nintendo publicy stated that they would stick with N64 after Dreamcast announcement and PS2 insistent rumours. That made them gain lots of sympathies (including mine).
Speaking of facts, Breath of the Wild itself is a product born from gradually increasing critics to the overdone series formula.

we must not forget that nintendo consoles always launch late on every generation:

Genesis 1988 - Snes 1991
Saturn 1994 - N64 1996
Dreamcast 1998 - Gamecube 2001

so they enjoy a few more years at the end of each generation, but the lifespan of each console isn't much longer (apart for the poor Dreamcast ).

Sega supported MS, Genesis, 32X and game gear until 1996.
N64 was only 2 years old when Dreamcast launched, and in the end it lasted the usual 5 years

But in these cases it's more a matter of perception

 

[Seaman]

we must not forget that nintendo consoles always launch late on every generation:

Genesis 1988 - Snes 1991
Saturn 1994 - N64 1996
Dreamcast 1998 - Gamecube 2001

so they enjoy a few more years at the end of each generation, but the lifespan of each console isn't much longer (apart for the poor Dreamcast ).

Sega supported MS, Genesis, 32X and game gear until 1996.
N64 was only 2 years old when Dreamcast launched, and in the end it lasted the usual 5 years

But in these cases it's more a matter of perception

One of the things that made me Sega fan back at the day was their stubbornes to be defeated and how they paved the way for future console generations. Partially it was their curse, because it gave a template to their rivals. But oh boy Game Gear... At least here in my territory, was dead on arrival. Not joking, Columns and Devilish was the only thing you could find in 1994. I managed to get a few cartridges more but that was it. But in a trip to London when Trocadero/Sega World existed saw a shop with lots of different titles for GG so it depended of the territory (couldn't convice my uncles to buy me one tho).
Back to the Columns issue: it was so flooded of it here that one can still find several copies spread over pawn shops. I took a picture few months ago

My arterial tension dropped taking the picture.

 

[iknifaugood]

In my opinion, Shenmue is a game that should be considered 6th generation, not 5th.

That Dreamcast hardware is commonly considered to be part of the 6th generation so that would make Shenmue part of the 6th generation, though it released in competition (mainly) with the 5th.

"Development of Final Fantasy X began in 1999, with a budget of more than $32.3 million ($56.7 million in 2022 dollars) and a team of more than 100 people." Not so far away from 47 million, right? :)

FF7 cost $45 million. It's Sega that boasted the $70 million figure for advertising purposes (and because they lumped both DC games, the Saturn versions, and the marketing together).

Also, yeah, maybe Shenmue III is not a big seller, but it's hardly a bad game. Most of the people that didn't like it didn't give it a chance (under 5 hours) or didn't play it at all. They are listening blindly influencers and youtubers. The marketing of the game was really bad or not enough money was given... Exactly this game needs videos in which to explain to the average gamer what is special about it, etc.

This is true of Shenmue 2 for sure because the single biggest complaint about Shenmue remasters is the forced waiting, which is a legitimate, fundamental flaw of the first game that definitely makes the game difficult to recommend to a modern audience. But one that was fixed in the sequel! Maddening.

The third thing I want to talk about is the dialogue. Ever wondered why there's always a problem with English dialogue and never Japanese?

I don't speak Japanese so I can't say I was aware that it didn't possess the same awkwardness but I'm glad to hear that it doesn't. So you're saying that it's a known issue but one that's sort of fundamental to the way Shenmue handles dialogue. To that I would say: the system should be changed or it should be limited to the language it was designed for. I can't imagine any possible perceived benefit outweighing the cost.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

Do you think a shenmue 1&2 remake will get more fans into the series more than the shenmue anime?

 

[Tosh]

Do you think a shenmue 1&2 remake will get more fans into the series more than the shenmue anime?

That would really depend on what kind of remake it is.
Is it 1:1 the same game just with better graphics? Did they change the pacing of the story?
Did they update the movement controls? Did they use new voice recordings?
Is it a low budget remake from a third party studio or is it a real Sega game, supervised by Sega?

Its a videogame, so it all comes down to if its a good game or not.
And people are used to different things now than back in 2001 in pretty much every category.

Also i feel like its gonna be too late for that now.
Like imagine if Sega is going to develop a full Shenmue 1 + 2 Remake now,
literally everything from scratch, everything updated to 2023 standards,
tighter story, fast travel etc and then you have this whole new package where part 1 and 2 are one big new game.

And then what about Shenmue 3 as a sequel to that?
It wont fit into there at all because Shenmue 3 follows the concept of the original two games.
So would they remake Shenmue 3 too? A game from 2019?
I think its too late for that whole remake plan now, unless Sega is going to wait another 10, 15 years.

 

[Suzaku]

One of the things that made me Sega fan back at the day was their stubbornes to be defeated and how they paved the way for future console generations. Partially it was their curse, because it gave a template to their rivals. But oh boy Game Gear... At least here in my territory, was dead on arrival. Not joking, Columns and Devilish was the only thing you could find in 1994. I managed to get a few cartridges more but that was it. But in a trip to London when Trocadero/Sega World existed saw a shop with lots of different titles for GG so it depended of the territory (couldn't convice my uncles to buy me one tho).
Back to the Columns issue: it was so flooded of it here that one can still find several copies spread over pawn shops. I took a picture few months ago
View attachment 18921
My arterial tension dropped taking the picture.

You're right, in the end Sony "went full Sega" and won the market.
yeah it depends on territories, for example Brazil was a stronghold for Master System especially, or Europe in general, not just UK, Game Gear, MS and Genesis were pretty strong (MS beated NES in many territories).

Man I loved Columns on GG!

 

[japalp]

I am all for remakes but only after the saga is completed. The last thing this series needs is a big budget remake that doesn’t sell well enough. They need to figure out how to complete the story first before thinking about remakes.

 

[Seaman]

Shenmue 1&2 remake its "outsourced", called Dragon & Phoenix

This is true of Shenmue 2 for sure because the single biggest complaint about Shenmue remasters is the forced waiting, which is a legitimate, fundamental flaw of the first game that definitely makes the game difficult to recommend to a modern audience. But one that was fixed in the sequel! Maddening.

The forced waiting in Shenmue 1 implied some hard fight coming next, requiring training our moves. This was "fixed" in S2 removing training and getting experience by actually getting into fights (no matter you won or lose, in fact It was better losing and repeating for experience boost) so the forced waiting was rendered unnecesary. But I agree that "waiting game" made more sense back then when game worlds of that size and complexity were uncommon, but also because normally the first playthroughs had us aimlessly looking for clues or getting extras like capsule toys. In my first playthrough it took me forever to get the Heartbeats part and nowadays I get to the harbor in a blink of eyes (making the forced waits unconfortable). I wonder if devs didn't tweaked it enough after removing several content like the blocked zones, gambling and so on.. in a similar way, training minigames planned and cut from S2 and later featured in 3 would've helped to fill more game hours in the originals.

Now allow me to rant a bit about modern audiences. I've seen playthroughs in YouTube that are heartbreaking. When I said before about going aimlessly looking for clues, there was however a kind of "north point". I knew what my goal was. What I see today are plenty of people running like beheaded lemmings along Dobuita, with almost zero interaction, waiting for scripted events to magically pop out. Imo the average player has been idiotized due the "kill, kill, kill... Do you have spare time? Well, kill some more" scheme.

Do you think a shenmue 1&2 remake will get more fans into the series more than the shenmue anime?

No, the anime getting to season 2 concluded would've attracted more fans to the games just like Gungage did.

You're right, in the end Sony "went full Sega" and won the market.
yeah it depends on territories, for example Brazil was a stronghold for Master System especially, or Europe in general, not just UK, Game Gear, MS and Genesis were pretty strong (MS beated NES in many territories).

Yes, here MegaDrive was the real deal.
Unlike North America, people choose Sega because of Sonic and not the sports games.
But at the same time finding a MegaCD or 32x at stores were impossible.

Man I loved Columns on GG!

Argh! Argh! Why did you said that! ... Well, I loved It too... The first months! because it was my first console and game for it..but after practically a year of only Columns I got nausea just by listening to the bgm. Hey, do you remember the "night cycle"? Columns did it before Shenmue. Quite effective roll palette trick.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

Do y’all think shenmue 4 will sell better than 3