Shenmue IV Will Happen - Here's Why!

[GhostTrick]

I'm sorry expectations did come into this. Maybe not the main driver but certainly around here it's been discussed for years around what may/may not happen in Shenmue III thus creating an expectation once the game was announced. To a point it was never going to reach those.

That said it's not the sole reason for the dissatisfaction of some and let's be honest here its the same people who are repeating the same things to death and not the majority of the wider community who actually were receptive to Shenmue III.

We know the story and character development is thin and there should have been more. But we also know that there were some pie in sky expectations from some, who thought they were going to get an epic like Shenmue II for the budget and that's plain unrealistic.

You can definitely tell a good story on a budget games have but none are the scope and size of Shenmue and who are we to tell Yu Suzuki what to do? He's wanted to give us a Shenmue experience that he felt balanced with the first 2. Now he's gone too much down the side stuff route and I think knows this from the fair criticism given.

This is why Shenmue 4 needs to be made in only Yu Suzuki's vision, without us bitching at him it's this or that. Shenmue is an experience thats different for each, that's a given, but personally while I do play for story and wanted more, I also played for the world and sense of escapism the game provides and I got that.



See my reply above.


If you're going to say someones view is "wrong" at least have the decency to explain your counter arguement.

Then again, I know we discussed that matter over and over, but I'm not judging whenever in the grand scheme, YS's decision is bad or not. What I disagree with though is the notion that, because of the budget and solely on that, we couldn't get more story and characterisation. Yes, it's true, with the decisions being made here. When budget is constrained, choices are to be done. Could we have the same game with more story and same budget ? Dont know, dont think so. But skipping story bits was a decision that was taken.

We know her name.

Besides, I find her far more intriguing not knowing much about her at this time. It makes what lies ahead for Shenmue 4 far more exciting.

We know her name because we're fan who have been following side materials for year.
Imagine the person who played Shenmue I-II in 2018, didn't follow side materials and played Shenmue III ?

They know shit about her because how poor the writing is. Her betrayalton has no effect since her character has limited screen time. And once she's shown, you get a weird flashback telling you she was that girl you barely saw earlier... She's not even introduced. You guess she's a major antagonist, but very few information is provided.

It's not intriguing, it's barebone writing.

 

[spud1897]

Then again, I know we discussed that matter over and over, but I'm not judging whenever in the grand scheme, YS's decision is bad or not. What I disagree with though is the notion that, because of the budget and solely on that, we couldn't get more story and characterisation. Yes, it's true, with the decisions being made here. When budget is constrained, choices are to be done. Could we have the same game with more story and same budget ? Dont know, dont think so. But skipping story bits was a decision that was taken.

It does come into it when the decision looks to have been made to sink funding into the systems rather than the story, at least that's the assumption I'm making. What's clear here is they didnt have the room to do both.

Whether that's the right call is down to the individual playing the game, I'd have liked some more story and less mini-games but I enjoyed them nonetheless

 

[Suzaku]

So wrong and presumptive on so many levels.

I think I hit a nerve here...

 

[Suzaku]

There are developpers who have been able to tell meaningful story with a nice world building and chara dev on a tight budget.

Budget explains a lot of things. But not everything. And if people can do meaningful stories with less budgets while you cant, it might be a good moment to think about your priorities and how you spend your budget.

This has nothing to do with crazy expectations. In fact, I think a lot of people here had humble expectations. People didn't ask for a conclusion here or 50 hours of deep story telling. But they didn't ask either for no character developpement, no meaningful new characters and such.

I mean, ffs, Niao Sun's introduction is just bad. She's not even named.

I don't think there are other developers who created a story driven open world game with this level of details and with such low budget...
Yes you can create meaningful stories on tight budget if you do a 2D visual novel...

Luckly the priority of Yu Suzuki was to create a Shenmue esperience, and I hope all the noise people are making on the net will not make Suzuki change his approach.

Also I don't think people had humble espectation at all (on the contrary they were unrealistically inflated by 18years of wait), because if they were really humble, people would be amazed about what we got and what Yu Suzuki has achieved with just spare changes, instead of wishing for the death of the series like some spoiled brats.

Niao Sun introduction is really nice instead, it's teased during all the game as a normal woman and finally show up at the ending as a misterious and deceitful villain.

I think people are too much accustomed to Disney Marvel villains and stories, where everything must explained at the face of the viewer before any action happen on screen...
There are also other ways, more subtle, to present a story.

 

[Sonoshee]

We know her name because we're fan who have been following side materials for year.
Imagine the person who played Shenmue I-II in 2018, didn't follow side materials and played Shenmue III ?

They know shit about her because how poor the writing is. Her betrayalton has no effect since her character has limited screen time. And once she's shown, you get a weird flashback telling you she was that girl you barely saw earlier... She's not even introduced. You guess she's a major antagonist, but very few information is provided.

It's not intriguing, it's barebone writing.

If I were a new fan, the little I found out about this person from Shenmue 3 would mean I'd be wanting to know more about them - cue Shenmue 4. It's okay not to have everything revealed at once.

Ryo doesn't even know who she is either. Shenhua's kidnapped and the last thing I'd be doing is sitting down with a coffee with her asking her about her personal stuffs.
Besides, maybe Shenhua found out her real name while being kidnapped and will reveal this to Ryo in Shenmue 4.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I think what's most disappointing is the game doesn't have a compelling antagonist 'til the end, and then you barely interact with or learn anything about her. The 'disguise' element is pretty weak, too. This random woman appears a few times in town and doesn't really say anything of interest to you, and then you suddenly find out she's Niao Sun. I think they expected this to be a big plot twist and surprising to the audience, but they didn't build the stakes enough to make it matter. It's the actual execution of these items that really lets a lot of the game down.

 

[hmjohnny]

As much as there are people who hate on the game there seems to be a lot of apologetics going on in this thread as well.

It's fine if you liked Shenmue 3, but the fact remains is that it is essentially an unfinished game. Yes budget played a large factor into that and we don't know what else went wrong during development behind the scenes either (lots can go wrong on a project easily). On the other hand I think some blame lies at the developers. This is a story that was allegedly planned out but little of it feels it that way. Also, Suzuki failed at properly scoping the project for the budget he had (his fatal flaw) which definitely factored into some of the decision making turning the game out as it was.

This is why Shenmue 4 needs to be made in only Yu Suzuki's vision, without us bitching at him it's this or that.

I'm worried what we got with Shenmue 3 was Suzuki's vision. Compromised somewhat yes, and of course the fans had some impact (kickstarter goals, forklifts etc.), but essentially the core of the game is what Suzuki wanted.

If that is the case, and given the reaction of some people here to Shenmue 3, I'm not convinced today Shenmue 4 will be a good game. I'm pessimistic I'll admit, and open to changing my mind if it comes out, but I remain skeptical that the situation we are in today: uncertain sales, mixed reaction to S3, negative press, low budget, and most of all confidence of what Shenmue is supposed to be about, will impact how Shenmue 4 is made and ultimately how it turns out, if it ends up getting made at all.

At this point the continuation of this series is for the remaining fans who care, of which there are relatively few. The days of providing a full "Shenmue experience" are likely behind us. The best thing we can hope for is some closure to the story and characters we've fallen for these past two decades. I think our voices are really important in getting that accomplished.

 

[hyo_razuki]

It does come into it when the decision looks to have been made to sink funding into the systems rather than the story, at least that's the assumption I'm making. What's clear here is they didnt have the room to do both.

Whether that's the right call is down to the individual playing the game, I'd have liked some more story and less mini-games but I enjoyed them nonetheless

I think your post, together with Ghost Trick's kind of hits the nail on the head. Decisions had to be made and people like Nagoshi and others have said it a million times that project management is Yu's one big flaw as a game director.

Was it wrong to sink money into huge maps and lots of minigames and stuff? Not necessarily, that depends on what the individual player likes. That said, the game is a very unbalanced experience, heavy on the size and "gimmicks" side, very light on the storytelling side.

Now does that mean, cutting for instance "dumb faces game" and "epic purse snatcher set piece" would have automatically resulted in an interesting conversation with Shenhua about the prophecy poem or the second Shenmue tree and an epic Mr Muscles qte battle on the castle wall? Of course not, but a large part of project man is about scoping your project and allocating your resources.

Anyway, we're not going to change S3 anymore and it's time to look ahead. S4 - if it gets made - will have a more modest budget and that may be for the better.

The fighting system and a fuckton of minigames are in place. There probably won't be money to create huge useless maps like Niaowu, there won't be money to record an English dub, maybe not even a fully voiced Japanese version. Maybe this will help you get his focus back on target.

 

[DanyTargaryen]

I don't think there are other developers who created a story driven open world game with this level of details and with such low budget...
Yes you can create meaningful stories on tight budget if you do a 2D visual novel...

Luckly the priority of Yu Suzuki was to create a Shenmue esperience, and I hope all the noise people are making on the net will not make Suzuki change his approach.

Also I don't think people had humble espectation at all (on the contrary they were unrealistically inflated by 18years of wait), because if they were really humble, people would be amazed about what we got and what Yu Suzuki has achieved with just spare changes, instead of wishing for the death of the series like some spoiled brats.

Niao Sun introduction is really nice instead, it's teased during all the game as a normal woman and finally show up at the ending as a misterious and deceitful villain.

I think people are too much accustomed to Disney Marvel villains and stories, where everything must explained at the face of the viewer before any action happen on screen...
There are also other ways, more subtle, to present a story.

Well said.

I'm very grateful that we got Shenmue 3, and with its production level, it was very satisfying. We got two very big towns, filled with NPCs. And there was quite a bit of content.

The parts that were lacking to me, had nothing to do with budget. It was about the choices that were made by Yu's team and Yu himself. Such as, the writting of the story, and some small aspects of the gameplay. Like the battle system and the stamina system. It could have been better in those aspects. And I don't think they were as they were because of budget. They could have made the battles better, and the stamina more compelling. They made some design choices that hurt the game, unrelated to the production budget.

 

[Sonoshee]

At this point the continuation of this series is for the remaining fans who care, of which there are relatively few.

Seriously?

 

[hmjohnny]

Seriously?

Yes seriously. Do you think there are many people outside of this forum who care about Shenmue?

 

[spud1897]

Yes seriously. Do you think there are many people outside of this forum who care about Shenmue?

Given the engagement in the tweetathons each month I'd say more than you think. This place isn't the majority of the fans or is the 500k

 

[spud1897]

I'm worried what we got with Shenmue 3 was Suzuki's vision. Compromised somewhat yes, and of course the fans had some impact (kickstarter goals, forklifts etc.), but essentially the core of the game is what Suzuki wanted.

If that is the case, and given the reaction of some people here to Shenmue 3, I'm not convinced today Shenmue 4 will be a good game. I'm pessimistic I'll admit, and open to changing my mind if it comes out, but I remain skeptical that the situation we are in today: uncertain sales, mixed reaction to S3, negative press, low budget, and most of all confidence of what Shenmue is supposed to be about, will impact how Shenmue 4 is made and ultimately how it turns out, if it ends up getting made at all.

At this point the continuation of this series is for the remaining fans who care, of which there are relatively few. The days of providing a full "Shenmue experience" are likely behind us. The best thing we can hope for is some closure to the story and characters we've fallen for these past two decades. I think our voices are really important in getting that accomplished.

Given his interviews from 2017 where he said fans would be upset if Forklifts weren't in the game I'd say he was influenced by fans hugely.

Yu Suzuki Speaks to Weekly Famitsu on Shenmue III: Part One | Translation

A blog on the Shenmue series of games from Yu Suzuki with a mission to translate articles, videos and updates for English-speaking fans.

www.phantomriverstone.com

Latest Gaming News | GAMINGbible

The latest gaming news covering PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo, PC and more, including events like E3 and Gamescom and the best stuff that's trending online.

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Yu Suzuki Wants to Continue Making Shenmue Games as Long as People Are Interested - PlayStation LifeStyle

Shenmue creator Yu Suzuki has said that he wants to continue making Shenmue games as long as people are interested.

www.playstationlifestyle.net

He truly thought he was making the best game for all of us. Probably to the detriment of the story. This is why I think he needs to shut us off barring a few community links, take on board the criticism and make what he wants to.

I think @hyo_razuki pretty much summed up a good point. The project didnt look like it was scoped correctly and therefore we got what we did, which in my view is a solid basis for a Shenmue 4.

 

[hmjohnny]

Given the engagement in the tweetathons each month I'd say more than you think. This place isn't the majority of the fans or is the 500k

I'm not familiar with the 500k, is that a fan site? How many people participate in the tweetathons? Especially now that the hype of S3 has died down.

You're probably right that this isn't that majority of fans, the majority are probably largely silent and don't participate in online discussions. My point being that Shenmue had about 70k backers and some of those were either not fans to begin with, or have since been alienated. How many of them remain? I'm not saying only 1000 people like Shenmue, but relatively speaking, the fanbase is small compared to most games and not going to get any bigger. Shenmue 4 is going to be for those of us who remain interested and not garner any new interest at this point.

He truly thought he was making the best game for all of us. Probably to the detriment of the story. This is why I think he needs to shut us off barring a few community links, take on board the criticism and make what he wants to.

I think @hyo_razuki pretty much summed up a good point. The project didnt look like it was scoped correctly and therefore we got what we did, which in my view is a solid basis for a Shenmue 4.

I'm aware of all those interviews. I know there was stuff added for the fans, especially the forklifts (for some reason, who asked for that!).

Do you think that Suzuki made Shenmue 3 with his perceived fan expectations in mind in spite of what he wanted to make? Every creator keeps the fans in mind to a certain extent, and with KS you have to even more especially when bringing back a franchise from the dead with the fans support. I guess what I'm asking is despite that did Suzuki feel he fundamentally compromised what HE wanted for S3 to give the fans what he thinks they wanted? And if he did, why would S4 be any different.

 

[Arcadio]

In this interview, Suzuki was asked what he thought Shenmue fans wanted. He thought they wanted a slow and smooth life, so he slowed everything down in S3.In fact, he was wrong. The most important thing for fans is how the story goes.I think he will be really aware of the fans' demands after this failure, just like he learned from S1 and improved S2.

 

[Suzaku]

Well said.

I'm very grateful that we got Shenmue 3, and with its production level, it was very satisfying. We got two very big towns, filled with NPCs. And there was quite a bit of content.

The parts that were lacking to me, had nothing to do with budget. It was about the choices that were made by Yu's team and Yu himself. Such as, the writting of the story, and some small aspects of the gameplay. Like the battle system and the stamina system. It could have been better in those aspects. And I don't think they were as they were because of budget. They could have made the battles better, and the stamina more compelling. They made some design choices that hurt the game, unrelated to the production budget.

Unfortunatey choices has to be made especially because of budget restrains.
The main issue remain that, not a lack of vision or something.
the perfect balance between game and story was impossible to achieve with this low budget, without downgrading Shenmue to another game genre.
And since this is a videogame and not a book, Suzuki wisely choose to give priority to the game aspects.


More story and scenario covered ? Needs bigger budget
Improved battle system? Needs bigger budget
More characters? Needs bigger budget
and so on.

maybe only the stamina system could've been better balanced without additional costs.

But maybe even that is the result of budget restrains, after all even game testing teams and QA has its costs and even that was probably limited to the extremely necessary. So some aspects of the game was hard to fine tune on the spot by programmers.
For example QTE extremely small windows, just like stamina system, is something that is easily fixed by changing some values in a text file (or directly in the Unreal Engine 4 blueprints)...sure, as long as you have a real quality control and testing department, like any medium-big game.

If there are no QA teams that tells you "hey guys, the stamina depletes too fast", or "hey guys, for the majority of out testing team, QTE are impossible", even an easy fix become hard to address..

In the end it's all due to budget.

The only thing that is NOT a result of budget restrains, is the fact that Shenmue 3 was created as a more intimate and slower experience, and was intended like this since the end on Shenmue 2.
That would be just the same even in 2003, no matter the amount of budget, so I think many would just be disappointend by S3 in any case...

 

[Rydeen]

I don't think there are other developers who created a story driven open world game with this level of details and with such low budget...
Yes you can create meaningful stories on tight budget if you do a 2D visual novel...

Luckly the priority of Yu Suzuki was to create a Shenmue esperience, and I hope all the noise people are making on the net will not make Suzuki change his approach.

Also I don't think people had humble espectation at all (on the contrary they were unrealistically inflated by 18years of wait), because if they were really humble, people would be amazed about what we got and what Yu Suzuki has achieved with just spare changes, instead of wishing for the death of the series like some spoiled brats.

Niao Sun introduction is really nice instead, it's teased during all the game as a normal woman and finally show up at the ending as a misterious and deceitful villain.

I think people are too much accustomed to Disney Marvel villains and stories, where everything must explained at the face of the viewer before any action happen on screen...
There are also other ways, more subtle, to present a story.

At the risk of building an echo chamber, I couldn't possibly agree with this any more than I do. Particularly about what kinds of stories and characters people have become accustomed to in media today. Shenmue III has a very unorthodox style of storytelling, relative to mainstream games, movies, TV shows, etc, and I can understand how people who don't enjoy interacting with media at anything other than face-value would find it lacking. I would agree that SIII is a little thin on story events, but I would not agree that it's really lacking in story. It does well by the main characters, introduces what appears to be a rather complex antagonist in Niao Sun, and provides good supporting roles akin to those of the masters who teach Ryo about the four wude. The focus for the story continues to be on imagery, symbolism, and metaphor, which I suppose aren't as immediately 'accessible' for audiences to engage with as just straight dialogue is.

Just something I wanted to put out there about the budget affecting the volume of story events: Consider that Baisha was cut for budgetary reasons, and would have had its own inherent story elements, as well as (presumably) the character perspective system.

I think what's most disappointing is the game doesn't have a compelling antagonist 'til the end, and then you barely interact with or learn anything about her. The 'disguise' element is pretty weak, too. This random woman appears a few times in town and doesn't really say anything of interest to you, and then you suddenly find out she's Niao Sun. I think they expected this to be a big plot twist and surprising to the audience, but they didn't build the stakes enough to make it matter. It's the actual execution of these items that really lets a lot of the game down.

It's not about what she says to Ryo, though. What intrigues me about Niao Sun are all the implications of her character, which aren't explicitly stated. As Li Feng, she's presented as this thoughtful, demure, beautiful woman who cares about the townspeople and children in Niaowu. If you interact with her late in the game, she appears to make her base of operations close to the Red Snake's turf, and makes veiled threats on Shenhua's well being to Ryo. By the end of the game Ryo finds this person to be completely at odds with who he initially thought she was. The only thing I might have asked for was some clue as to whether or not she's well known within the community as Li Feng, but I don't think that's really important to her character. There are enough details at this point that I can speculate on my own about the gaps. I wouldn't have that luxury if every character were just giving their inner monologues at all times.

The only thing that is NOT a result of budget restrains, is the fact that Shenmue 3 was created as a more intimate and slower experience, and was intended like this since the end on Shenmue 2.
That would be just the same even in 2003, no matter the amount of budget, so I think many would just be disappointend by S3 in any case...

This is something I think people have lost sight of. The fact is that Shenmue III was originally intended to focus heavily on Ryo and Shenhua. What was the figure? It was at least 50% of the dialogue that was supposed to just be between Ryo and Shenhua. I don't think what we got for Shenmue III quite made it to that, but that idea is still somewhat reflected in the final product.

 

[DanyTargaryen]

Unfortunatey choices has to be made especially because of budget restrains.
The main issue remain that, not a lack of vision or something.
the perfect balance between game and story was impossible to achieve with this low budget, without downgrading Shenmue to another game genre.
And since this is a videogame and not a book, Suzuki wisely choose to give priority to the game aspects.


More story and scenario covered ? Needs bigger budget
Improved battle system? Needs bigger budget
More characters? Needs bigger budget
and so on.

maybe only the stamina system could've been better balanced without additional costs.

But maybe even that is the result of budget restrains, after all even game testing teams and QA has its costs and even that was probably limited to the extremely necessary. So some aspects of the game was hard to fine tune on the spot by programmers.
For example QTE extremely small windows, just like stamina system, is something that is easily fixed by changing some values in a text file (or directly in the Unreal Engine 4 blueprints)...sure, as long as you have a real quality control and testing department, like any medium-big game.

If there are no QA teams that tells you "hey guys, the stamina depletes too fast", or "hey guys, for the majority of out testing team, QTE are impossible", even an easy fix become hard to address..

In the end it's all due to budget.

The only thing that is NOT a result of budget restrains, is the fact that Shenmue 3 was created as a more intimate and slower experience, and was intended like this since the end on Shenmue 2.
That would be just the same even in 2003, no matter the amount of budget, so I think many would just be disappointend by S3 in any case...

You're right, for the most part. But in order to get the right budget, they need the right plan. Although you put it together very eloquently, I still think the story telling could have been much better regardless of budget. The stamina system wasn't necessary in the form that it was made, in my opinion. And the battle system didn't please, for the extent I have seen. I personally think it's fine, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't like the Virtua Fighter battle engine leaps more.

So now that Shenmue 3 came out, and that it sold a tepid amount. What is the solution at this juncture? Other than maybe getting the story out in other forms. Yu Suzuki himself made Shenmue I into a movie, probably hoping to whip together a bigger audience, without using a lot of additional money. Since you say budget was the problem, how do we solve this problem now?

 

[TwiceFriedRice]

I think I hit a nerve here...

I think you're just wrong here.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't think there are other developers who created a story driven open world game with this level of details and with such low budget...
Yes you can create meaningful stories on tight budget if you do a 2D visual novel...

Luckly the priority of Yu Suzuki was to create a Shenmue esperience, and I hope all the noise people are making on the net will not make Suzuki change his approach.

Also I don't think people had humble espectation at all (on the contrary they were unrealistically inflated by 18years of wait), because if they were really humble, people would be amazed about what we got and what Yu Suzuki has achieved with just spare changes, instead of wishing for the death of the series like some spoiled brats.

Niao Sun introduction is really nice instead, it's teased during all the game as a normal woman and finally show up at the ending as a misterious and deceitful villain.

I think people are too much accustomed to Disney Marvel villains and stories, where everything must explained at the face of the viewer before any action happen on screen...
There are also other ways, more subtle, to present a story.

The problem is "this level of detail".
It's nice to put a lot of budget to fill drawers with useless items to see. It's not when your story driven saga is missing a shitload of story content in its 3rd episode which have been expected for more than 15 years.

I'm not amazed by Shenmue III. Why would I be ? It did what it could with a 12 million dollars budget. It doesn't shine particullary well in any area.

And I'll tell you what, when you say expectations were inflated, I disagree strongly. My references aren't AAA titles. My references are AA or even A titles, that still manage to tell a meaningful story and build a huge world.

An exemple I love to take is the Legend of Heroes serie. It's been going since what, 2004 ? They've released 9 games so far, all interconnected, building a huge world, a huge cast of characters while maintaining interesting locations to visit and really well developped NPCs, which you can even meet again in later games, with their own story lines. Sure, the visuals are subpar. And you cant open the drawers. But guess what ?

It does really well at what its trying to do. It's not fully voiced, and yet there's a shitload of script.

And in the end ? It's still reviewing well. It's still fairly respected among its fanbase and critically. It's not an on-going joke/meme among the press/industry.

As for the part about Niao Sun... Please, let's be serious for a second. You're selling it as a well done moment and well prepared when it's basically a poorly made "haha I was the mean character since the begining !". A plot twist that has been done over and over. It's not a problem by itself. The problem is that its too poorly written to give a shit. You say it's because "people are used to Disney/Marvel so they need things to be straightforward". I'd say: "watch more movies, play more games" because if those are your references, I understand why you think so much good of Niao Sun's reveal.


It was neither subtle nor well done. Rather the opposite. It's completly sudden and makes no difference because the writers never heard the words "build up" or "tension". If they gave enough volume to the story of Niao Sun's character before the reveal it could've had an impact. But it was basically a nobody telling you she was the mean guy. Well in fact, not even saying so. It was so rushed that you basically have Ryo getting a flashback to tell you "it was her !!!" And you're calling that subtle ?