So does Niao Sun have both mirrors now? And other dangling plot threads...

[hmjohnny]

If there's still a Tentei, it's possible the mirror is with him and/or at the cliff temple/Chi You Men base.

But yeah the ending makes next to no sense so it's almost pointless trying to get a grasp of it.

I always wondered if there ever was a Tentei. I know the guide mentions it but I'm not sure if that can be taken as canon.

Suzuki has always mentioned four leaders of the CYM and nothing else. If anything it always seemed that the northern leader, Xuan Di, was the de facto leader if there ever was one.

That being said it does make sense from an organizational standpoint to have a big boss ruling over the CYM, unless we are to believe they are a 4 person democracy. Alas, Shenmue 3 missed the opportunity to delve deeper into the CYM lore giving us some clues to work with.

 

[orient]

EDIT: FWIW I don't think the mirrors being created in 1910 is a retcon. I believe that was always in the original script. I still have hope that Suzuki can make sense of this story in the long run.

Yeah, the whole "building a bridge for a royal envoy, creating the mirrors for the emperor" stuff feels like integral lore that would've been in there from the very beginning.

There's nothing that happened in III that makes me think they've "ruined" the story -- it simply leaves more questions than answers. (And no, before people complain, I'm not saying it's a well-structured or well-told story: it's barebones but competent, in my opinion).

There have been a few things people have declared as "retcons" that I don't think are: when the mirrors were made, Chai knowing Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror, the mirrors being a map to the treasure etc.

 

[hmjohnny]

There's nothing that happened in III that makes me think they've "ruined" the story -- it simply leaves more questions than answers. (And no, before people complain, I'm not saying it's a well-structured or well-told story: it's barebones but competent, in my opinion).

Yeah I agree with this. There wasn't any major red flags in Shenmue 3 to make me think the overall plot is bad, just not enough of it to say for sure.

That's my worry though, we are left grasping at straws here trying to analyze the story because too little of it was given either way. My fear is that all of these cool elements that they set up and hinted to might actually be bad, or like you say bare bones. Maybe the CYM are just the bad guys, maybe the mirrors just lead to a treasure etc.

I'm hoping Shenmue 4 alleviates this.

 

[orient]

That's my worry though, we are left grasping at straws here trying to analyze the story because too little of it was given either way. My fear is that all of these cool elements that they set up and hinted to might actually be bad, or like you say bare bones. Maybe the CYM are just the bad guys, maybe the mirrors just lead to a treasure etc.

I'm hoping Shenmue 4 alleviates this.

I definitely see where you're coming from. On the other end of the spectrum, I don't think every little thing requires an explanation, either. Do we really need someone to explain that Chai told Niao Sun about the mirror, or why Lan Di hung around in Japan or Hong Kong? And so many of the big questions -- Shenhua's role, Lan Di's motivation for wanting the mirrors -- they're clearly meant for further down the line.

There's a balance to strike between questions and answers, and Shenmue III was wayyyy down at the 'questions' end of that spectrum. I'd prefer IV to be more in the middle. There's nothing worse than a story that over-explains itself.

 

[24Nathan]

I always wondered if there ever was a Tentei. I know the guide mentions it but I'm not sure if that can be taken as canon.

Suzuki has always mentioned four leaders of the CYM and nothing else. If anything it always seemed that the northern leader, Xuan Di, was the de facto leader if there ever was one.

That being said it does make sense from an organizational standpoint to have a big boss ruling over the CYM, unless we are to believe they are a 4 person democracy. Alas, Shenmue 3 missed the opportunity to delve deeper into the CYM lore giving us some clues to work with.

 

[Suzaku]

About "when mirrors were made", there aren't retcons here.
Mirrors where supposed to be the keys for a treasure of the Qing dynasty, like Shenmue 2 told. Qing dynasty ruled China from 1644 to 1911 with the last emperor Puyi.

If there is a retcon in Shenmue 3, is the sword of the seven stars, that it's not flying during the intro in 3 (its not showed at all in the intro, so technically it's not a retcon).

 

[hmjohnny]

Thanks!

I've seen seen this before a long time ago but must not have made it to the end as I didn't remember him mentioning Tentei.

The rest of the interview doesn't instill a lot of confidence though when he seems to have forgotten so many of the details about the characters lol.

I personally feel like half of Shenmue 3 should have been spent on developing the CYM and learning more about them. Lot's of interesting potential but unfortunately it will come a little late in the story.

 

[hmjohnny]

I definitely see where you're coming from. On the other end of the spectrum, I don't think every little thing requires an explanation, either. Do we really need someone to explain that Chai told Niao Sun about the mirror, or why Lan Di hung around in Japan or Hong Kong? And so many of the big questions -- Shenhua's role, Lan Di's motivation for wanting the mirrors -- they're clearly meant for further down the line.

For sure not everything requires explanation, some things you just take for granted, others are just there to be cool.

The big mysteries like Shenhua or the mirrors etc. were obviously never going to be revealed this early. Still they should have been developed more. I would have like to have known the CYM motivation for the mirrors in Shenmue 3 or at least what's at stake. Ryo hands the phoenix mirror over to Niao Sun willingly to save Shenhua's life. It makes sense for his character but as an audience we have no idea what that means. To Ryo the mirrors are functionally worthless, what does he care if the CYM possess them to get a treasure, he is only after his revenge. However, if possessing the mirrors actually does give the CYM world ending powers then a lot is at stake and being halfway through the story the audience should have some idea of that.

It also adds a cool dimension to the Niao Sun/Lan Di rift as they may not want the mirrors for the same goal. Instead we are left wondering if NS possesses both mirrors and what that would entail. And if she doesn't why won't Lan Di and her work together since they are both CYM and should be working towards the same goals?

There's a balance to strike between questions and answers, and Shenmue III was wayyyy down at the 'questions' end of that spectrum. I'd prefer IV to be more in the middle. There's nothing worse than a story that over-explains itself.

Exactly. Over exposition is bad, which is why the mysteries should be developed slowly. Right now S3 missed the opportunity to do that so S4 will have to do some heavy lifting back loading a lot of the exposition which may work against its pacing.

 

[Suzaku]

Unless I'm missing something, I believe that Lan Di still possess the dragon mirror, while Niao Sun now has the phoenix.
Probably Niao Sun knows that Lan Di has the dragon, while Lan Di probably DON'T know that Niao Sun has the Phoenix.

In the end both of them will reach the "cliff temple" separate ways, so there will be a big clash there between both sides of the CYM, and Ryo could take advantage of this situation to take back at least one mirror.

That's my two cents.

 

[Sh3ppy]

it will be very interesting to see where the rift between NS and Lan Di ends up going. There’s loads of potential there but we can only speculate until we see more.

More and more I think that the story in 3 was likely more fleshed out, especially in Niaowu, through the character perspective system that was originally going to be implemented (Shenhua’s pov in particular). When that got binned, I’m guessing some exposition went along with it.

 

[tya]

Shenuah And Ryo are keys for mirrors's functionnal.
keys?
Hazuki's crest= Sword and sword handguard, shenmue trees, power within them in the end of S2... You named it.
Shenuah is Yin (sword handguard, the inner spirit), Ryo Yang (sword, the physical action).
Speak about powers... shenua's dreams= Feels she has over +100 years...