The “definitive” Shenmue experience? HD collection VS originals.

[punkmanced]

I thought I would start this thread to continue the rather candid and interesting discussion that most recently derailed the “patch 7 for PC” thread

Which version, if any, do you consider to be the “definitive” Shenmue experience at this point?

Does the HD collection provide a better/ more enjoyable overall experience? Or are the additional bells and whistles of the re-release just not enough to overlook the endless issues that are nowhere to be found in the rock-stable originals?

On a slightly more introspective note: how much have you been willing to overlook for the sake of modern convenience?

As someone who hasn’t played the games in well over a decade, and who [foolishly?] awaits that one final magic patch, I’m genuinely curious; share your honest thoughts down below.

 

[Vivi-gamer]

I did enjoy playing Shenmue 1 on PS4 but like many experiences many bug and hickups. However, the biggest concern was the problem I had prior to release and that is the scattershot aspect Ratio. Shenmue 1 I could put in 4:3 and play it consistently from Start to Finish like that - By no means what I had hoped for but the convivence of the PS4 won me over on that example. Shenmue II was simply unforgivable though, not only are cutscenes in 4:3 but also letterboxed. I still see no excuse for this as promotional trailers showed scenes in full widescreen and honestly it ruined the experience for me.

I resorted to playing Shenmue II's Xbox version on my 360, which after tinkering with the display settings got it to run and a pleasant resolution while mostly full widescreen. I'd happily take a stretched image over the scattered letterboxing of the HD port and did - Played through it again after a long time and had a blast!

I'm still holding out on PC Modders to fix the aspect ratio for good - I haven't got a Gaming PC but still bought a Steam version in hope. I recently tried out the Nvidia Shield TV but was horribly disappointed that the only way you could play Steam games was through a streaming version of Steam (Like PS Now) - Where I wanted to run the Modded version of the game to fully enjoy it.

So as it stands Shenmue 1 I can play on PS4 and grit my teeth but for Shenmue II my best option is still on the Xbox 360.

 

[Gamer707b]

I wont get too technical here, but if you have the originals then I would say stick to those. If you don't have a Dreamcast or don't want to track one down then your best choice might be the newer releases. As far as quality goes, its night and day. The originals stand the test of time. No need to update them, or download anything. Plus the added benefit of the originals being future proof. Which these re-releases are not.

 

[DigitalDuck]

I thought I would start this thread to continue the rather candid and interesting discussion that most recently derailed the “patch 7 for PC” thread

Yeah... sorry about that.

I'm going to take the post out of order just to start with a positive:

On a slightly more introspective note: how much have you been willing to overlook for the sake of modern convenience?

The convenience is not something to be understated - it's absolutely the biggest draw of the re-release. It was the main reason I wanted a re-release in the first place - I'm starting to run out of Dreamcasts! It's absolutely great that we have a version of Shenmue on modern consoles, and if I only want to play the game (e.g. experimenting with things, speedrunning) then I'll pick this version out of convenience.

However...

Does the HD collection provide a better/ more enjoyable overall experience? Or are the additional bells and whistles of the re-release just not enough to overlook the endless issues that are nowhere to be found in the rock-stable originals?

The biggest improvement of the re-release comes with massively reduced load times, especially when it comes to saving/loading files. That along with being able to save anywhere in Shenmue (I mean a proper save) makes it great for doing things like grinding the raffle. The new collection screen is pretty cool too.

Every other "improvement" comes with caveats, though.

An increased resolution means next to nothing when very few of the assets have been retouched to compensate. It wouldn't matter that the game's running in 8640p if you still have trees made up of four polygons and a 64x64 texture.

The game's in widescreen, except when it isn't because they wanted to preserve the original art (fair)... but then there are some cutscenes which are still in 16:9 and are broken because of it; there are times when the game is letterboxed despite no cutscene taking place; and there are some cutscenes which have complete changes in camera position, most notably those involving the kitten. Every time the camera changes position there's this strange fading effect where it starts dark and then grows brighter over the course of about a second, which can be incredibly off-putting.

It's nice to be able to choose between English and Japanese, but unfortunately you're stuck with the English dialogue timings either way, so it's a choice between bad voice acting or awkward pauses between different parts of sentences; meanwhile, the audio quality itself is significantly reduced for no reason whatsoever, things like footsteps no longer work, and there are still problems with the music (although it has come a long way since the first patch), especially the Shenmue II notebook mus??????wns everything else out.

The promised "modern" control scheme turned out to be literally the equivalent of pressing the ANALOG button on a PS1 DualShock with a game that doesn't support analogue controls, and as such is outdated by even the Xbox version of Shenmue II. The controls of the arcade games, particularly Space Harrier, are broken to the point of being near-unplayable, with D-pad movement having artificial elasticity where none existed before.

The re-release is missing features of the original games, like the passport disc and the promo movies; there are numerous additional bugs that still remain despite being known about and reported from before Day 1 (many of which should be easy fixes, like the Space Harrier controls or the timer in the motorbike section); and of course, it wouldn't be a DigitalDuck post without mentioning the many crashes.

There is absolutely no way I could recommend the re-release over the original. It's not terrible, but it's definitely inferior.

 

[Kodama]

Easily the Dreamcast versions IMO. Convenience isn't even a big factor to me since I'm a Dreamcast enthusiast and always have at least one hooked up at any time and the undubs loaded in via USB stick, but even if it was a factor I still couldn't recommend the new ports. I've already explained my position fully in that other topic for the most part...

I decided to give it one last ride, since it doesn't look like they'll ever get patched up. I have a small baby in the house and I can play PS4 upstairs which helps my wife a lot. I even put the aspect ratio to 4:3 and took off the hi-res output which surprisingly fixes a few graphical errors. However all the sound issues are still present, as is plenty of other graphical errors. I'm gonna push on just for fucks but this is definitely the last time I play these shitty ports before I go back to Dreamcast. This port is so heartbreaking to me, I didn't expect it to be fucking perfect or anything but I at least expected a respectable finished product...

 

[9dragons]

Besides a funny bug that Ryo becomes invisible from Time to time I had no problems with Shenmue 1. Finished Shenmue 2 for the first time just now on my ps4 and it had no bugs at all. I wish I could say the same about the DC Version of Shenmue 2. The discs stopped working all the time with a strange error message and I almost though I could not finish the game. I made it luckily but I do not dare to touch the DC Version again.

I am not much of a tech guy, so the HD Re Release do the job for me. They make it possible to play the game on a current gen platform which is awesome.

I was not expecting some technical improvements so I was not disappointed. Also for convenience reasons the HD Release wins any time over the Dreamcast Version.

Like most people I have just a Flat Screen and no CRT Television anymore and getting good image out of the Dreamcast that is suitable for a 4K TV is quite a hassle. Unlike most people I spend lots of money for retro gaming an a Flat screen. Bought a upscaler the Framemeister. With the Framemeister and RGB Scart the image is quite ok but not many people will go these way to get the DC working on a modern day TV set. My framemeister is also about the spoil, then I cannot play Dreamcast games anymore.

So I would rather recommend the HD Re release over the Original. Although the Original is still great and aged really well. But for convenience and for gaming preservation purposes the HD Version is better.

 

[Oregon Pacifist]

I'd say the current HD collection of Shenmue 1 & 2 is the way to go. I personally encountered hardly any bugs playing either title and when I did, they were very minor. Some people may complain about the inconsistent cutscenes between the two games but it didn't bother me at all. Both games are played in widescreen and 1080p which is much better than the originals.

When playing on the Dreamcast, I had problems loading certain discs on one of my Dreamcast consoles. Not to mention the console is very loud, switching discs is inconvenient, and the loading took much longer. I love playing the games on Xbox One.

 

[Kodama]

Just making this clear not that it matter as we can all spitball about this, but I don't think convenience has anything to do with what makes a version definitive. If a version of a game performs best on a colecovision as opposed to a PS4, the colecovision version is still the definitive version... at least that's how I've come to understand it...

 

[GYO6161]

I even put the aspect ratio to 4:3 and took off the hi-res output which surprisingly fixes a few graphical errors.

Is interesting you say this because with S1 on PS4, when i put the game in 4:3 and with High Res disabled at the same time, the shadows dissapear. Strangely enough is only with this combo where this happens.

 

[Youppi]

I'm really still butthurt that Shenmue 3 won't be able to accept a Shenmue 2 ending save. I know WHY, but I don't really buy it.

 

[sporkaganza]

In my opinion, something is "definitive" if no other version needs to exist for you to enjoy it to its fullest extent. In that context there is no definitive version of Shenmue. Even by a super hardcore purist's definition there isn't, because even if you have the original Japanese Dreamcast copies of I and II, you have no way to transfer your saves to III.

 

[orient]

I don't think there is a definitive version. Visually, the HD re-releases look better than the DC (and Xbox) versions ever could. The widescreen makes a huge difference during gameplay, and the letterboxing doesn't bother me. Being able to play Shenmue I in Japanese with English subs is huge as well -- that was the main selling point for me. Again, the occasional pauses in dialogue I barely even notice.

However, the originals have an advantage in the audio department, with some tracks sounding not-quite-right, and lower quality VO throughout (although the JP audio sounds fine to me). It's small, but I do think the VMU helps when learning moves.

The lack of passport content doesn't phase me in the slightest, though. The explainer videos are just weird and unnecessary by today's standards. From a preservation standpoint it would've been nice to have that stuff, but it isn't integral to the experience. I barely looked at it back in the day and I don't really miss it now.

An increased resolution means next to nothing when very few of the assets have been retouched to compensate. It wouldn't matter that the game's running in 8640p if you still have trees made up of four polygons and a 64x64 texture.

Criticising a port of an old game for having the same graphics as the original is like listening to The Beatles and complaining about the scratchy audio quality, or watching Casablanca and wishing it was in colour.

The only alternative would've been to remaster the games, because you can't just touch up bits and pieces -- you either modernise the graphics or you don't. We saw what a potential remaster would've looked like and, personally, I'm happy we ended up with a port instead. For re-releases like this, I want the original vision to be preserved, and I think the HD versions do a good job of that, while also delivering much better image quality. They're not perfect, but they're very good for a budget re-release.

 

[Amir]

For Shenmue I the re-release wins out for me (with the widescreen fix and Dewey's restored audio mod).

I still haven't started playing SII, but the fact it has the musical "errors" from the Xbox port is pretty offputting. If this were to be modded, then the re-release would be the definitive version for me.

I'd be curious to know how the re-releases compare to emulation, e.g. DEMUL. Not sure my PC is powerful enough so I haven't tried, but how have others found it?

 

[9dragons]

I think the main Goal of the re release was to preserve Shenmue 1 and 2 for future Generations and make it available on modern day Systems which is a good. Thing. A complete Remaster like the Halo Master Chief Collection would be nice for sure, but I am happy we got the original game.

I am not a big fan of These Remasters anyway. I like the Original Gamecube Release of Resident Evil and Resident Evil 0 for the gamecube much more than the HD Version. I know that hd Release Looks better but I sill prefer the original look. It just Looks better. High Definition often does not mess with the old Artstyle games had in the early 2000s.

 

[DigitalDuck]

Criticising a port of an old game for having the same graphics as the original is like listening to The Beatles and complaining about the scratchy audio quality, or watching Casablanca and wishing it was in colour.

Not at all. I'm not saying the re-releases are worse than the originals for having the same graphics, I'm saying the re-releases are not better for having the same graphics. It's not a downgrade, it's just not an upgrade either.

Praising the re-release's graphics is like saying the audio quality of a Beatles track has improved merely by being on CD when it's just a recording of the original vinyl, or saying that the colour in Casablanca is much better now you're watching it on a colour TV despite it still being in black-and-white.

The only alternative would've been to remaster the games, because you can't just touch up bits and pieces -- you either modernise the graphics or you don't. We saw what a potential remaster would've looked like and, personally, I'm happy we ended up with a port instead. For re-releases like this, I want the original vision to be preserved, and I think the HD versions do a good job of that, while also delivering much better image quality. They're not perfect, but they're very good for a budget re-release.

I'm glad they went this option too, remastering the graphics would've been too much budget-wise and meant even less spent on making the game stable. But at the same time, I can't say it's an improvement going from "blocky and blurry" to "blocky and blurry... IN HD!"

 

[orient]

But at the same time, I can't say it's an improvement going from "blocky and blurry" to "blocky and blurry... IN HD!"

I guess that's where our opinions differ, then.

I think the improvements to image quality really revitalises these games. Seeing them with such crystal clarity, in widescreen, without the relative softness of 480p, harsh jaggies and texture banding/shimmering -- not to mention improved performance, load times, no micro-pauses to load from disc etc. -- it all adds up to deliver an experience that feels closer to what they were aiming for back then.

 

[hyo_razuki]

Really difficult question. With shorter loading times, dual audio and a couple of European languages as subtitles like French, Spanish, German, making the game accessible for a lot of people who don't speak Japanese or English for the first time ever, the 2018 ports have a lot going for themselves. Also, hooking up a Dreamcast to a present-day TV oftentimes requires a workaround like a Framemeister or an Akura.

However, with the amount of bugs still remaining in the games today (I can only speak about the PS4 version), particularly in the departments of music and sound effects, combat and Arcade games the ports right now are a far cry from being worthy to be called competent at their current state, imho.

If the bugs in those three departments get ironed out at some point in the future, I'd be willing to call the ports the definitive versions of S1 & S2 but as of right now, I don't think there is a definitive version.

But if someone who had the opportunity to play the games on whatever system they wanted to play on asked me which versions of the games I'd recommend, I'd tell them that the Dreamcast version of S1 and the PAL Dreamcast version of S2 will give them the best Shenmue experience.

 

[Kodama]

Is interesting you say this because with S1 on PS4, when i put the game in 4:3 and with High Res disabled at the same time, the shadows dissapear. Strangely enough is only with this combo where this happens.

I actually just noticed that last night, it wasn't happening before but now it is lmfao. I can't win with these ports...

In my opinion, something is "definitive" if no other version needs to exist for you to enjoy it to its fullest extent. In that context there is no definitive version of Shenmue. Even by a super hardcore purist's definition there isn't, because even if you have the original Japanese Dreamcast copies of I and II, you have no way to transfer your saves to III.

Ummm... you're gonna have no way to transfer your saves to III no matter what version you play...

 

[Kodama]

I guess that's where our opinions differ, then.

I think the improvements to image quality really revitalises these games. Seeing them with such crystal clarity, in widescreen, without the relative softness of 480p, harsh jaggies and texture banding/shimmering -- not to mention improved performance, load times, no micro-pauses to load from disc etc. -- it all adds up to deliver an experience that feels closer to what they were aiming for back then.

Well that's debatable. A lot of the lack of load times and such are actually very jarring because the scenes were cut with load times in mind. There are also tons of new graphical issues and hiccups that aren't in the Dreamcast version...

But that said I basically agree with you. The anti aliasing and texture filtering really make the game look so much better, and the higher resolution is nice. This is definitely the best looking way to play the game. But I also agree that low res assets look really stupid up close. Like, incredibly stupid. But as long as the camera is pulled back a bit, the game looks fucking stunning...

 

[Kodama]

But if someone who had the opportunity to play the games on whatever system they wanted to play on asked me which versions of the games I'd recommend, I'd tell them that the Dreamcast version of S1 and the PAL Dreamcast version of S2 will give them the best Shenmue experience.

So then those are the definitive versions by definition lmfao, although I would recommend the undub version for Shenmue 1...