The Story From Lan Di's Perspective

Joined
Nov 23, 2019
I was thinking about the story from Lan Di's perspective and whether or not it's possible to learn anything about his motives or the CYM based on what we know so far.

The facts so far:
- Longsun Zhao was born in 1955. His father is Sunming Zhao, martial arts master (of Tiger Swallow) and all around good guy.
- Sunming Zhao is best friends with Yuanda Zhu and at some point before 1968, he is entrusted with the mirrors at the Cliff Temple to prevent them from falling into the hands of the Chi You Men.
- Sometime in the 1960s, Sunming Zhao meets Iwao Hazuki and they become friends and train together before something happens in Meng Cun and Sunming Zhao dies, Iwao is blamed for his death, returns to Japan with the mirrors, and fathers Ryo.
- Longsun Zhao is adopted by the Chi You Men (around 12-13 years old) and eventually becomes known as Lan Di, one of (or possibly THE) leader of the Chi You Men. He believes that Iwao murdered Zhao and learns that he moved to Japan with one of the mirrors. He murders Iwao in 1986 and steals the Dragon mirror; he only ever demands one and seems content when he finds out it's the Dragon mirror. He heads back to Hong Kong.
- Lan Di hates Yuanda Zhu and orders the Yellowhead gang to kidnap him. When he sees Ryo on the rooftop, he is content to abandon him and head to Guilin where the CYM has ordered the stonecutters of Bailu village to be kidnapped.
- Lan Di resides in a castle in Niaowu, near where Yuan is being held/interrogated and we know that Yuan knows that "one who holds the phoenix" is heading to Bailu Village to join Shenhua.
- Not much is said directly about the CYM but we learn that the mirrors are either keys to a treasure or the means to "opening the gates of heaven and earth and allowing Chi You to resurrect itself and devour this world of ours". Also worth mentioning that Xiuyu Xia, the owner of the Russyia China shop, says that praying to the stars on a moonless night will grant your wish when explaining the Phoenix Mirror. They also name themselves after emperors and wear imperial clothing (thus far Lan Di is the only one whose name we know).
- Lan Di learns that Iwao had both mirrors and when Niao Sun assumes that she has successfully betrayed Lan Di, she declares herself the de facto leader of the CYM.
- Lan Di is headed to the Cliff Temple with the Dragon Mirror, presumably to confront Niao Sun.

From this I think we can infer a few things:
1. Lan Di knows about both mirrors. No one ever doubts the fact that he knew about both, his father had both in his possession, and he makes moves to find the Phoenix Mirror. Many people know about both mirrors and they even sell a convenient replica mirror in Niaowu, so it's possible that they're a "known" thing, at least in that part of China. Lan Di also knows about the Cliff Temple, so it stands to reason that if he thought the Dragon Mirror was all he needed, he would have headed there immediately.

2. If we take the bad endings into consideration, Lan Di appears to know of Shenhua's powers and claims that Ryo has "outlived his usefulness". It's not canon, but it leaves the impression that Lan Di knows more about the situation than the facts above would lead us to believe. It also explains why he flies away at the end of S2.

3. Lan Di and the CYM are stuck without the Phoenix Mirror. The bad endings imply that there is a "path" that is open for a finite amount of time and that, even if Ryo were to have stayed in Yokosuka, Lan Di would eventually find him/ the mirror.

4. Lan Di certainly has a reputation for being someone not to fuck with but thus far he has only killed one person that we know of and when he is shown encountering Ryo, he doesn't kill him automatically or really appear to want to kill him. He's also about as respectful as one could be to the murderer of one's father, so he definitely has some kind of code that he lives by. He's not a sadist and doesn't necessarily view himself as a villain.

5. Thus far Lan Di is the most proficient martial artist in the series, appears to have nearly limitless wealth and resources, has climbed the heights of the criminal underworld and attained the revenge that he wanted for most of his life so the big question is: what does Lan Di want? He's not shown lacking power or money, he mocks Ryo for having a death wish so it's unlikely that he's the leader of some kind of suicide cult who wants to resurrect a monster to destroy the world, he's certainly not arrogant or self-aggrandizing so does he really fancy himself some kind of literal ruler/emperor? It's possible that his robes, which show the dragon clutching a pearl with 5 talons, offer insight into what Lan Di might want: wisdom, enlightenment, eternal life etc. particularly if he knows about Shenhua and her connection to reincarnation, past lives etc.

6. It's possible that Lan Di's cold, calm reaction to Niao Sun's betrayal indicates that he doesn't necessarily align himself with the CYM. He may be using them as a means to an end.

7. Suzuki has all but declared outright that Ryo won't be killing Lan Di by the end so could Lan Di be headed for redemption? Or is he destined to go out like an Indiana Jones villain, consumed by the very treasure he sought? Or maybe he'll die in a freak Shenhua Qi blast accident? Or maybe Lan Di will literally summon a dragon and Shenhua will literally summon a phoenix and the two will duke it out?
 
I think Lan Di's mentor is Tentei and his alter ego is Yuandha Zhu, the true leader of the CYM, this might be foreshadowed in II when you place the 4 keys, representations of the 4 Leaders, and he's the 'ghost' inside. He's been playing games with Lan Di, like using spies and proxies to make Lan Di think Iwao only had one Mirror. Then he sent Ryo the letter late on purpose, and is trying to engineer a battle between the two. I guess there's some kind of chamber in the cliff temple made from phantom river song. Perhaps Niao Sun wanted two stone masons to try and find a way through it, and that's why they can't reach the heart of the cliff temple.

I don't think Lan Di wants to resurrect Chi You, I think he wants the treasure to fulfil his father's dream of building a new dynasty. I believe both Lan Di and Shenhua are the descendants of the emperor (the dragon) and the empress (the phoenix) If Chi You is to be resurrected, I believe that's Tentei's plan, and he needs to complete the 'game' to put all the pieces into place, as a testament to 'the god of war'.
 
I think Lan Di's mentor is Tentei and his alter ego is Yuandha Zhu, the true leader of the CYM, this might be foreshadowed in II when you place the 4 keys, representations of the 4 Leaders, and he's the 'ghost' inside. He's been playing games with Lan Di, like using spies and proxies to make Lan Di think Iwao only had one Mirror.
This is certainly possible though I don't like using information from outside the game (ie: Tentei is not something that has even been hinted at in-game apart from suggesting that Longsun Zhao was taken in by the CYM). It's also worth pointing out that Lan Di would have had face to face interactions with Tentei so how could he have an alter ego as Zhu?

I don't think Lan Di wants to resurrect Chi You, I think he wants the treasure to fulfil his father's dream of building a new dynasty.
So you thing Sunming Zhao wasn't the nice guy he's painted as? Presumably that means Iwao actually did kill him right?

I believe both Lan Di and Shenhua are the descendants of the emperor (the dragon) and the empress (the phoenix)
This is highly unlikely as Puyi, the last emperor of the Qing dynasty was actually alive up to 1967 (an interesting bit of trivia being that, while he never had children, it was said that if he produced a male heir, he would be sent to be raised in Japan). Plus he abdicated power, so a line of succession wouldn't mean anything (and there are like a bunch of other claims to the "throne" anyway). Unless Suzuki is making up his own fictional history but thus far there isn't anything to indicate that he is.

If Chi You is to be resurrected, I believe that's Tentei's plan, and he needs to complete the 'game' to put all the pieces into place, as a testament to 'the god of war'.
Definitely worth considering if the CYM are aware of the prophecy/poem and what they think it means.
 
This is certainly possible though I don't like using information from outside the game (ie: Tentei is not something that has even been hinted at in-game apart from suggesting that Longsun Zhao was taken in by the CYM). It's also worth pointing out that Lan Di would have had face to face interactions with Tentei so how could he have an alter ego as Zhu?


So you thing Sunming Zhao wasn't the nice guy he's painted as? Presumably that means Iwao actually did kill him right?


This is highly unlikely as Puyi, the last emperor of the Qing dynasty was actually alive up to 1967 (an interesting bit of trivia being that, while he never had children, it was said that if he produced a male heir, he would be sent to be raised in Japan). Plus he abdicated power, so a line of succession wouldn't mean anything (and there are like a bunch of other claims to the "throne" anyway). Unless Suzuki is making up his own fictional history but thus far there isn't anything to indicate that he is.


Definitely worth considering if the CYM are aware of the prophecy/poem and what they think it means.
I think Lan Di and Shenhua descended from a past emperor and empress in some vague way, yes, probably not Puyi. Shenhua seems to have dreams of past lives including Luoyang so I think she's connected to the first empress and Luoyang was one of the capitals.

I think Lan Di is her counterpart so he would have to, as well. I think this heritage will connect to the control they may have, some influence over the calamity of the treasure, as Yeh describes it. In the end, I think they will work together in some way, to preserve the balance and stop 'Chi You' whether literally or symbolically. I have a feeling Ryo is the 'morning star glistens alone' somehow and the third influence.

I think Lan Di realises Tentei is Zhu in the helicopter, at the moment he's with Ryo, and he leaves them because he's not in the mood for another one of his games, or his tests.
 
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This is a great thread, It's interesting to think about what Lan Di's motivations are in context of the broader story.

They also name themselves after emperors and wear imperial clothing (thus far Lan Di is the only one whose name we know).
In game yes, but technically Suzuki did reveal the names of the other leaders. While I'm hesitant to call it canon since anything can change, he has been consistent throughout the years in sticking with this narrative. I do think the fact that they call themselves emperors is telling though. It's likely self aggrandizing and egotistical of them as a criminal organization but it could also mean that they somehow see themselves as figuratively (or literally) an extension of dynastic China.

Lan Di knows about both mirrors
While it's obvious everyone knows there are two mirrors, the fact that he didn't know Iwao had both is interesting. I always thought that Lan Di would figure if Iwao had both mirrors in his possession for so long why not use them? Of course there's the chance he did since we don't know for sure what the mirrors do.
Ryo has "outlived his usefulness"
It's likely plot convenience that the CYM didn't kill everyone in the dojo that day but I've always thought once Ryo arrives in HK onwards that the CYM let him live in hopes that he would lead them to the phoenix mirror. That or Lan Di just didn't see him as a threat and didn't care to bother with him. We see that even when he confronts LD at the end of S3, he seems more annoyed than anything as is content to let his flunkies deal with him. He also is content to let Ryo live in exchange for the mirror which indicates that he doesn't care about Ryo at all, the mirrors were always his prime motivator.
what does Lan Di want
This is one of my biggest gripes so far and with S3 in general. It was a huge missed opportunity to not expand on the motivations of the CYM and at least tell us what they think they want.
calm reaction to Niao Sun's betrayal
It could also mean he was expecting it. It does seem he wants the mirrors for himself but only S4 can tell.
could Lan Di be headed for redemption
I don't think so. S3 cemented Lan Di as a villain for me. I don't think Ryo will kill him but I do think he will die somehow. It's possible is arc will still be tragic but I don't see him being redeemed.
Lan Di's mentor is Tentei and his alter ego is Yuandha Zhu
I don't know why this theory keeps getting kicked around. It makes no sense for Zhu to be a member of the CYM nevermind its leader. It would also be incredibly unsatisfying if that were the case. It's likely Tian Di is just a new character.
Presumably that means Iwao actually did kill him right
This could go either way but if Iwao did kill him it was either justified or accidental. I think there is foreshadowing that Iwao is not the bad guy and didn't murder Zhao out of malice.
was said that if he produced a male heir, he would be sent to be raised in Japan
I didn't know this, thats really interesting
line of succession wouldn't mean anything
I think this is in the fictional history territory. It is possible that the CYM see themselves as an extension of dynastic China and want to reinstate themselves as its aristoracracy regardless of whether or not it's legitimate. On the other hand this isn't likely either since Suzuki seems like he wants to placate the Chinese and this wouldn't fly in the CCP.
Lan Di and Shenhua descended from a past emperor and empress in some vague way
I like this theory. We have evidence that Shenhua is at least a reincarnation if not descendant (Yuan is not her real father) but so far no evidence for Lan Di. However, we know the mirrors were entrusted to Sunming Zhao which could be a clue to his own heritage.

Another thing to consider is that Iwao takes "Zhao's mirrors" but guards them with his life. This implies that Iwao knows what the mirrors do and that their importance is far beyond treasure. Even if it is connected with resurrecting the Qing dynasty or allowing the CYM to rule China why would Iwao care? It's possible he made a vow to Zhao or someone else but it definitely feels like the mirrors do a lot more than that. The stakes need to be higher.
 
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I don't know why this theory keeps getting kicked around. It makes no sense for Zhu to be a member of the CYM nevermind its leader. It would also be incredibly unsatisfying if that were the case. It's likely Tian Di is just a new character.
I guess it might be anticlimactic if Tentei, the true leader is a brand-new character. Having it be someone familiar, might be a more emotional development for the characters.

I guess Zhu/Zhang's spy network is an autonomous, ghost cell within the CYM, they share information with the larger organization, but it's coordinated. Why does it take so long for Lan Di to confront Iwao? Why does he think he has 1 mirror? Perhaps Tentei is leading him in that direction.

Zhu knows about the Mirror light patterns, he tells Ryo that Zhao died in unknown circumstances, gives him a clue to go Guilin/Bailu Village, and Ryo finds the extra map, vague information, breadcrumbs, to lead someone where they need to be.

Niao Sun says "The CYM belong to me now" like Lan Di was the unofficial leader, maybe Tentei is the ghost leader and not everyone in the organization knows who is in charge of the shadow cells. Sun perhaps is too stupid to realize she's another pawn, a rabid dog, allowed to roam free and push Ryo and Lan Di out of their comfort zones. I think he's playing them all in some dark game, some representation of the War of Chi You.

At least that makes sense in my imagination lol.
 
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Shenhua seems to have dreams of past lives including Luoyang so I think she's connected to the first empress and Luoyang was one of the capitals.
Definitely. Shenhua is constantly associated with ancient history; the Shenmue tree is thousands of years old, she says she dreams of several past lives, the poem references her destiny being predetermined since ancient times, the flashback when we learn her name is clearly a long time ago, etc. Which is why it's so weird that the mirrors are relatively young. What could their connection to ancient history possibly be? I always thought phantom river stone or something else about the mirrors would be important.

In game yes, but technically Suzuki did reveal the names of the other leaders.
Thus far I've only seen anyone refer to the woman in red as Niao Sun, not Yan Di (the confusion is understandable but still, do they fancy themselves emperors or not?).

While it's obvious everyone knows there are two mirrors, the fact that he didn't know Iwao had both is interesting. I always thought that Lan Di would figure if Iwao had both mirrors in his possession for so long why not use them? Of course there's the chance he did since we don't know for sure what the mirrors do.
I think it's likely that Lan Di assumed that Iwao killed Sunming over the mirror and the fact that he learns that Iwao had both re-contextualizes the event in his mind. I believe that Lan Di witnessed the event (or at least part of it) based on the fact that he is absolutely certain that Iwao did it, where he did it, Iwao doesn't deny it, and Iwao is shocked when he realizes who Lan Di is. Lan Di would've been around 12-13 at the time and Iwao in his late 20s so it's possible that Iwao needed to overpower or incapacitate LD (could be where the scar comes from?). Could also imply that Iwao used a sword, after all, we know he's pretty good with a katana...

It's likely plot convenience that the CYM didn't kill everyone in the dojo that day but I've always thought once Ryo arrives in HK onwards that the CYM let him live in hopes that he would lead them to the phoenix mirror. That or Lan Di just didn't see him as a threat and didn't care to bother with him. We see that even when he confronts LD at the end of S3, he seems more annoyed than anything as is content to let his flunkies deal with him. He also is content to let Ryo live in exchange for the mirror which indicates that he doesn't care about Ryo at all, the mirrors were always his prime motivator.
I just meant that we don't know of anyone else that Lan Di has killed. We know that Niao Sun is willing to kill at the drop of a hat and the CYM kill people, just not LD. Which isn't to say that he hasn't.

This is one of my biggest gripes so far and with S3 in general. It was a huge missed opportunity to not expand on the motivations of the CYM and at least tell us what they think they want.
I think it's possible to assume that Lan Di and the CYM's motivations are not aligned. If we're going with Tentei existing, maybe Lan Di just wants the mirrors back because he views them as his father's property, and whatever the treasure is is something that is more Tentei's thing. Agreed that S3 should have been the point where we learn more about this though we know that the CYM target young orphans and generally don't seem to mind where their recruits come from. They are obviously offering something to their recruits outside the promise of wealth. Also worth pointing out that the CYM are known by reputation (fairly broadly it seems considering Ziming knows about them as a child) and Sunming Zhao risked his life to prevent them from getting the mirrors.

It is possible that the CYM see themselves as an extension of dynastic China and want to reinstate themselves as its aristoracracy regardless of whether or not it's legitimate.
This doesn't strike me as the kind of territory that Shenmue deals in. The CYM restoring a dynasty would have much more to do with a generalized threat I think than actual politics (ie: grants control of an army or a monster or fucking time travel over simple birthright claims). The main reason is because, as I mentioned, the CYM appear to have near limitless resources, so the kind of power that would come with being a literal emperor isn't that much of a step up. Imagine if Don Corleone wanted to become president.

Another thing to consider is that Iwao takes "Zhao's mirrors" but guards them with his life. This implies that Iwao knows what the mirrors do and that their importance is far beyond treasure. Even if it is connected with resurrecting the Qing dynasty or allowing the CYM to rule China why would Iwao care? It's possible he made a vow to Zhao or someone else but it definitely feels like the mirrors do a lot more than that. The stakes need to be higher.
Possible that Iwao knows about the poem? He was in Bailu Village where we know they recite it and let's just say he greatly favored protecting one mirror over the other. Maybe Lan Di knows about the poem as well?
 
Nice thread!

I'd always imagined Zhao was a good guy who was drawn to the power of the mirrors.

But Zhao would need a compelling reason to "turn bad"...

🤫 Crazy theory incoming 🤫

...like, he wanted to resurrect someone from the dead? A son, perhaps...? Lan Di.

"It can't be...you"

What if the mirrors can resurrect anyone? What if Zhao and Iwao were in Bailu to find information to unlock the powers of the mirrors?

What if they were successful and something went wrong, or a sacrifice had to be made, such as giving your own life to bring back another?

After witnessing the power of the mirrors first-hand, Iwao takes it upon himself to hide them from the world.
 
Nice thread!

I'd always imagined Zhao was a good guy who was drawn to the power of the mirrors.

But Zhao would need a compelling reason to "turn bad"...

🤫 Crazy theory incoming 🤫

...like, he wanted to resurrect someone from the dead? A son, perhaps...? Lan Di.

"It can't be...you"

What if the mirrors can resurrect anyone? What if Zhao and Iwao were in Bailu to find information to unlock the powers of the mirrors?

What if they were successful and something went wrong, or a sacrifice had to be made, such as giving your own life to bring back another?

After witnessing the power of the mirrors first-hand, Iwao takes it upon himself to hide them from the world.
Yamangishi says the tresures have good/bad fortunes, and Yeh describes there being a calamity at the heart of the treasure. I think Sunming tried to retrieve the treasure, (His family may have come from a emperor's blood line, representing the dragon) but he was corrupted by Chi You's shadow, or some kind of curse. Like the One Ring, it amplifies one's impulses, greed and hate within an idividual, a 'strength that could destroy you' I guess Niao Sun will be destroyed by Chi You, set a example, it feeds off her greed and jealously of Lan Di.

I guess Lan Di believes he will need Shenhua's abililities to quell the shadows, Chi You "I will take your power" Iwao offered to protect Sunming, but saw him being touched by the shadow "Keep your friends close" Ryo will remember Iwao's words and stop it happening to his friends.

Iwoa and his friend escape the temple, Sunming is burderned by a lingering shadow, and begins to mistrust Iwao, like Frodo turns on Sam. Unfortunately Iwao kills him in self defense, but because Iwao is a flawed young man, he runs away with the mirrors, he doesn't believe anyone will believe him.. why he had to kill his friend and hides the mirrors, like the servants of the Cliff Temple told Sunming to. He wishes to help Lan Di but before he can return, the CYM have targeted Sunming's son and tried to indoctrinate him, offering him the power and control, to protect people he could not.

If Tentei is Zhu, Sunming's 'best friend' he may have been secretley watching the fight, then he retrieved a copy of Iwao's sparring uniform and Sunming's copy of 'The Principles of Ying/Yang' banner, and placed it in 5 star corp, (a front company of a secret cell within the CYM), just a little game.. to mess with Ryo's mindset and dangle the clues over his prey.

I think there will be some kind of redemption for Lan Di, and unlike Iwao and Sunming, they break free from Chi You's influence. I guess after they defeated the true power behind the CYM, Lan Di will exile himself to Meng Gun. An older Ryo spars with him and he teaches him how to use Iwao's hidden scroll.
 
I think Lan Di's mentor is Tentei and his alter ego is Yuandha Zhu, the true leader of the CYM, this might be foreshadowed in II when you place the 4 keys, representations of the 4 Leaders, and he's the 'ghost' inside. He's been playing games with Lan Di, like using spies and proxies to make Lan Di think Iwao only had one Mirror. Then he sent Ryo the letter late on purpose, and is trying to engineer a battle between the two. I guess there's some kind of chamber in the cliff temple made from phantom river song. Perhaps Niao Sun wanted two stone masons to try and find a way through it, and that's why they can't reach the heart of the cliff temple.

I don't think Lan Di wants to resurrect Chi You, I think he wants the treasure to fulfil his father's dream of building a new dynasty. I believe both Lan Di and Shenhua are the descendants of the emperor (the dragon) and the empress (the phoenix) If Chi You is to be resurrected, I believe that's Tentei's plan, and he needs to complete the 'game' to put all the pieces into place, as a testament to 'the god of war'.

I'm sorry, but where did that come from?
 
I'm sorry, but where did that come from?
I admit it's a hunch. In 3, the elders say in the flashback that the empress and emperor are represented by the dragon and the phoenix. This isn't a revelation, but I think Shenhua and Lan Di are meant to contrast each other as representatives of those symbols, and their lineage adds another layer. I guess there's an order at the cliff temple (who may have placed the map in the bell tower), they're being scouted by the CYM, so they entrust Sunming the mirrors because of his lineage. Somewhere along the way, I think Sunming gave in to the temptation, promise of riches, a power to resurrect a mighty dynasty, and decides to use the powers inside the mirror. I think he briefly unleashed "the calamity" and it made him turn on Iwao. (it's a bit boring if Iwao didn't kill Sunming and it was a lie..) I think Lan Di is using the resources of the CYM to try and find the treasure "selling his soul" as Ziming said about joining with them. I guess Lan Di is following his father's footsteps, and this would contrast with Ryo following his father's path, in a way, and meeting the same martial artists or masters. It would build on the momentum of the story, that we gradually keep learning that there's more to Lan Di than meets the eye.
 
Nice thread!

I'd always imagined Zhao was a good guy who was drawn to the power of the mirrors.

But Zhao would need a compelling reason to "turn bad"...

🤫 Crazy theory incoming 🤫

...like, he wanted to resurrect someone from the dead? A son, perhaps...? Lan Di.

"It can't be...you"

What if the mirrors can resurrect anyone? What if Zhao and Iwao were in Bailu to find information to unlock the powers of the mirrors?

What if they were successful and something went wrong, or a sacrifice had to be made, such as giving your own life to bring back another?

After witnessing the power of the mirrors first-hand, Iwao takes it upon himself to hide them from the world.
I love this. This is something that I could see them doing to avoid Iwao having killed Zhao but still have that opening scene make sense. Worth mentioning that if we’re putting any stock into “moonless night” having any connection to the mirrors, there were two total lunar eclipses in 1967 (likely when Zhao was killed) and one coming up in 1988. Depending on how the mirrors work, of course.
 
I love this. This is something that I could see them doing to avoid Iwao having killed Zhao but still have that opening scene make sense. Worth mentioning that if we’re putting any stock into “moonless night” having any connection to the mirrors, there were two total lunar eclipses in 1967 (likely when Zhao was killed) and one coming up in 1988. Depending on how the mirrors work, of course.
In my opinion, I think Iwao has to have to killed Sumning, to progress Ryo's character arc, and to emphasise his similarity to the antagonist, he probably didn't kill him with intended malice though.

I have a feeling the moonless night, glistening north star, might have something to with Shenhua ascending and being reincarnated among the stars, in the ending sequence for the whole series.
 
In my opinion, I think Iwao has to have to killed Sumning, to progress Ryo's character arc, and to emphasise his similarity to the antagonist, he probably didn't kill him with intended malice though.
I lean toward this as well, though @orient provided the best example of how Iwao could not have killed Sunming while still having the story make sense imo. What doesn't work is if Lan Di was simply lied to by the CYM and it's all one big misunderstanding because that robs him of his agency. It's worth remembering that Iwao "must have known" that Lan Di was coming; he left his note explaining how he chose the path of the warrior and he very deliberately made it so that Ryo would come into possession of the Phoenix Mirror. On that note, the Hazuki basement contains a couple of items that gesture toward "immortality" (the elixir of youth and the undried leaf). Many ancient Chinese emperors were obsessed with alchemy and elixirs of immortality.

Also worth pointing out is that Master Chen and Guizhang appear to know more about Lan Di's motivations (ie: he's definitely looking to make use of both mirrors and will become "unstoppable"). They also appear to know more about Ryo's role to play in all this but are infuriatingly vague about it. The degree to which this is just "videogames gonna videogame" or intentional plot stuff appears to vary depending on who's talking to Ryo at a given time. Guizhang, for instance, tells Ryo that he "doesn't realize his role" in the context of preventing Lan Di from getting the mirror but then helps him on his quest to virtually bring the mirror to Lan Di. But it begs the question that if there is a destiny set about for Ryo that people are aware of (ie: go with the one who holds the phoenix) is there a similar destiny for one with the dragon mirror?
 
I lean toward this as well, though @orient provided the best example of how Iwao could not have killed Sunming while still having the story make sense imo. What doesn't work is if Lan Di was simply lied to by the CYM and it's all one big misunderstanding because that robs him of his agency. It's worth remembering that Iwao "must have known" that Lan Di was coming; he left his note explaining how he chose the path of the warrior and he very deliberately made it so that Ryo would come into possession of the Phoenix Mirror. On that note, the Hazuki basement contains a couple of items that gesture toward "immortality" (the elixir of youth and the undried leaf). Many ancient Chinese emperors were obsessed with alchemy and elixirs of immortality.

Also worth pointing out is that Master Chen and Guizhang appear to know more about Lan Di's motivations (ie: he's definitely looking to make use of both mirrors and will become "unstoppable"). They also appear to know more about Ryo's role to play in all this but are infuriatingly vague about it. The degree to which this is just "videogames gonna videogame" or intentional plot stuff appears to vary depending on who's talking to Ryo at a given time. Guizhang, for instance, tells Ryo that he "doesn't realize his role" in the context of preventing Lan Di from getting the mirror but then helps him on his quest to virtually bring the mirror to Lan Di. But it begs the question that if there is a destiny set about for Ryo that people are aware of (ie: go with the one who holds the phoenix) is there a similar destiny for one with the dragon mirror?
It's why I don't think Lan Di is the true villian, like in Star Wars, The Balance of the Force, Lan Di and Shenhua must renew the balance somehow or something else poetic. I doubt the dragon represents evil, and think Lan Di will play some good in the end. I guess among the CYM, Niao Sun (and maybe Ziming) will be used to represent the version of Lan Di who would be destroyed by their ambition.
 
I wouldn't read too much into Lan Di's reaction to Niao Sun's betrayal or into S3's ending at all since we know it was cut short by cutting Baisha and just in general it was very badly executed.

It probably is the way it is because YS Net ran out of money and time and Deep Silver had had enough of the delays.
 
I guess it might be anticlimactic if Tentei, the true leader is a brand-new charact
I'll have to disagree with you there. I think it makes more sense for him to be a new character, anything else would feel like it's coming out of left field (imagine if a character like Master Chen is Tian Di, it would just be weird/bad). Regardless though, I see no evidence for it to be Zhu or anyone else introduced so far.
Thus far I've only seen anyone refer to the woman in red as Niao Sun
Technically that name is not canon either since it's not in the games. But you're right it could be that the emperor names are being abandoned; we don't even know if there are 4 leaders anymore.
I think it's likely that Lan Di assumed that Iwao killed Sunming over the mirror and the fact that he learns that Iwao had both re-contextualizes the event in his mind
We don't know if Lan Di is aware that Iwao had both mirrors. He could just as likely think Ryo got it from Yuanda Zhu or found it in Bailu village. But if he does know, I'm curious as to how he would feel knowing Iwao had both mirrors all along.
This doesn't strike me as the kind of territory that Shenmue deals in
Yeah, I agree. Just musing on it is all.
think it's possible to assume that Lan Di and the CYM's motivations are not aligned
I think they are after something more mystical with the hopes it will grant them immortality or supernatural power. If there is a Tian Di/overlord to the CYM it would be likely that he wants this power to himself and the 4 leaders should be aware of this.
So either:
1) they don't truly believe in the treasure
2) they think it's something they don't want/care about
3) They are secretly plotting to steal it for themselves
4) or are true believers to the cause
I think there is some interesting ways the last 2 could play out.

Possible that Iwao knows about the poem?
Huge missed opportunity to expand on the poem and its implications in Bailu. It would be cool to know if Iwao knew about the poem. Maybe he interpreted it as being about himself and Zhao? lots of possibilities that are going to go unexplored.
 
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Crazy theory incoming
It's definitely offbeat but I've always liked the idea that the treasure can resurrect the dead. It also has the implications for each characters motivation to be different. Who does Lan Di want to resurrect vs Tian Di (his father vs Chi You)? Why didn't Iwao use it to resurrect Akane? Will Ryo use to bring back anyone? Ren? etc.

However, it doesn't make sense that Lan Di himself is resurrected. I think it creates more questions than it solves. How did he die? Does he know he was brought back? What does it have to do with Iwao? It also doesn't make sense Lan Di would think Iwao killed his father unless the CYM just lied to him but I find that kind of unsatisfactory.

Also worth noting that Zhao was considered extremely honourable and he was entrusted the mirrors by Yuan/family in Bailu. They must have trusted him immensely, I'm not sure the mirrors "corrupted" him like the one ring or the lust for treasure. There must be something else that happened that we aren't aware of yet.
 
I'll have to disagree with you there. I think it makes more sense for him to be a new character, anything else would feel like it's coming out of left field (imagine if a character like Master Chen is Tian Di, it would just be weird/bad). Regardless though, I see no evidence for it to be Zhu or anyone else introduced so far.

Technically that name is not canon either since it's not in the games. But you're right it could be that the emperor names are being abandoned; we don't even know if there are 4 leaders anymore.

We don't know if he Lan Di is aware that Iwao had both mirrors. He could just as likely think Ryo got it from Yuanda Zhu or found it in Bailu village. But if he does know, I'm curious as to how he would feel knowing Iwao had both mirrors all along.

Yeah, I agree. Just musing on it is all.

I think they are after something more mystical with the hopes it will grant them immortality or supernatural power. If there is a Tian Di/overlord to the CYM it would be likely that he wants this power to himself and the 4 leaders should be aware of this.
So either:
1) they don't truly believe in the treasure
2) they think it's something they don't want/care about
3) They are secretly plotting to steal it for themselves
4) or are true believers to the cause
I think there is some interesting ways the last 2 could play out.


Huge missed opportunity to expand on the poem and its implications in Bailu. It would be cool to know if Iwao knew about the poem. Maybe he interpreted it as being about himself and Zhao? lots of possibilities that are going to go unexplored.
Imo it's more dramatic, you fight with the 4 leaders, but the ultimate master mind is revealed, the 5th leader and it's someone we know, he's not just another head honcho, a phantom figure at the heart of the CYM. Now I imagine if there was going to be a secret identity, it'll be someone you underestimate, someone who looks weak like Zhu, they don't sit on a throne, but a wheel chair. If Tentei is the ultimate enemy, then you would think he would have retroactive influence on events in the previous games. I think Tentei being Zhu makes "more sense" than a new character, and potentially answers a few questions.

Ren says about Zhu "He used to be the big boss of Hong Kong, I heard he lost it all though".. yet Zhu has this elaborate network of agents, he seems pretty equipped for someone "who lost it all". Yeah.. Zhu has access to a very capable cell of agents, and spies. I guess Zhang leads one front of this cell, and the other front is Tentei.

If Lan Di turns on the CYM, there could be a flashback scene, where he explains to Ryo who Tentei is... in Kowloon, Lan Di arrives at the top to pick up Zhu. Lan Di could have landed on the building, he could defeated them all there and retrieved Zhu, but he nods at the CYM, and signals they should leave, Dou Niu says "This whole city will belong to me" but he becomes frustrated with Lan Di who is implied to have abandoned their deal, and he leaves without Zhu, why? Lan Di may have realised Zhu was a persona of Tentei, Zhu is standing with Ryo's friends at the time. Tentei could have been his mentor in the CYM, and played cruel games on Lan Di as a young man, in an attempt to corrupt him. He is thinking "I'm out of here, not another game.." Repeating myself.. perhaps Lan Di has own agenda to focus on, related to his father, and to contrast with Ryo following the footsteps of his father, and visiting the same places/people.

5 star corp maybe was a shadow company owned by the CYM, so Zhu could present an unsuspecting backstory for this persona, a front, and then he places himself in Ryo's parameter, (and perhaps also in Sunming's "his best friend") in some long manipulative game.

In the DLC for 3, I think it would be better in retrospective with this reveal, Zhang reintroduces himself "I heard the CYM are in this area, I came by this information by Zhu" that line is absolutely delicious if we know Zhu is the true leader. The guy trying to betray Zhang says "I won't be satisfied, I want to be like Zhu, I'm not like you (Zhang) I won't be satisfied unless I'm on top" ok that sounds like classic foreshadowing if Tentei is literally on top of the CYM and everything that is going on. But again Ren said Zhu "lost it all" something sounds sketchy and not adding up here. Then later Zhang says "this is my organisation's problem" he doesn't say who his organisation is, which is shady. I don't think they're the CYM per say, but I believe they're an extension. Then at the end of the DLC, Zhang says Zhu will give him a reward in Hong Kong next time he's in the area, Yu Suzuki or the writers could focus on new characters in further game if the series contintue (e.g. Ziming or 2 other leaders) it may have been cleaner to just end that plot there, but he gave the DLC an intersection into the further story, and I guess that's because Zhu still has a noticeable role to play in the series. He told Ryo a lot near the climax of II, but I believe his story might not be over yet.

Speculating further, the leaders of the organisation may be after different things.

Lan Di = Wants the treasures, he has 'sold his soul' to the CYM, like Xiuying described Ziming. He endured Tentei's training/tests, but he's stlll not a complete tool, and has his own code,"I'll allow you to die like a warrior" also in comparison to Sun who is just chaos and would rather set your base on fire. I think Lan Di has his own agenda, he wants the treasure, for the same reason his father became enticed by it.

Niao Sun = I think she's jealous of Lan Di and believes he was considered the favourite, acting leader of the CYM. "The CYM belong to me now" she wanted to become the favourite, and now she may want the treasure, to amass enough wealth, so she can burn the old organization down, and rebuild it her own image. This fits her old whole red phoenix motif.

Tentei/Zhu, wants to engineer a battle between Ryo and Lan Di, and begin an ethereal conflict involving Shehua's power, .. war representing Chi You. Doesn't really have a personal motive like Sun and Lan Di, he's top of the food chain and wants to screw everyone else over. The most evil of the evil, Palpatine-type.
 
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