What is this b*11$h1t with the post-story game?!

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I mean, the way I see it Ryo leaves Yokosuka at the end of Shenmue I. He can't go back to stroll around at his leisure to buy up all the toys in town, so why should we? He's headed to Hong Kong at the end of the game, and I guess when I first played S1 all I cared about was heading there with him. You take the collection of things you were able to pull together during your run with you to Shenmue II and continue the journey.

You get one shot to live through this period of Ryo's life and spend the time you have the way you want to, and if that means collecting everything in one run, then you kinda have to plan for that. You've only got the time you've got before its time to leave, just like real life. Each to their own but I think that's kinda neat and actually adds to the replay value.

Buuuut also I can totally see if you're a completionist gamer who really values that kind of thing why it would bug you to no end and that's totally fair too. Regardless OP I hope you carry your save over and give Shenmue II a try, imo its the best in the series!
 
Shenmue is a story driven game. Not a jump and run like crash and spryo. Shenmue has no levels. it tells an open ended story. Story games back then did not had a hub were you could go back after finishing the story like in your average moden day open world game. It would also make no sense for Ryo coming back after the ending of Shenmue because he is on the ship to Hong Kong now.

I can understand that this is not good for a completionist gamer like the op is but games back then were not about collecting trophies and toys. Story games were for the story lovers only and the collectors had their fun with jump and runs guns to collect as many coins, wumpa fruits or whatever.
 
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9dragons said:
Shenmue is a story driven game. Not a jump and run like crash and spryo. Shenmue has no levels. it tells an open ended story.
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Exactly so comparing Shenmue with Crash and Spyro doesn't make any sense to me.

If someone finished FFVIII for example and missed something the person will have to load a save before the ending or other save, or the person will have to go with the new game, no NG+, the person will have to start everything again.

If someone finished God of War the person will have to load a game in a specefic part of the game or start a new game, Resident Evil the same thing and so many other story driven games are like this.

In Shenmue we can even transfer the save to Shenmue II, this way carrying our progress

To me Yu Suzuki is the originator of open world games, as far as I know he was the first to bring these open-world elements together in the game industry. At that time the genre open-world didn't exist so Yu Suzuki even put the word FREE for the game.

Shenmue II is bigger in relation to this but the first game have the elements of open-world games, it was the first to do this things as far as i know.

What Yu Suzuki and the team did at that time is amazing, as far as i know Shenmue was the first game to have a weather system that way and many other things.

i don't think is wrong calling Shenmue an open-world game, the first open-world game.
 
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Well technically this is the reason they give you the hint on the very last active day in the notebook. Something along the lines of "say goodbye to your friends and family"...it's basically the game subtly telling you "this is it! If you go forward with the story from this point on, there will be no other chance to simply hang out in the world and collect stuff."

Technically it was doing that way before any other open world game of its kind. There was no New Game+ back then...this was all new and uncharted territory back in the day given the type of game it was so it can be forgiven that there is no New Game+ here. That's not bad game design. It was just a different era where these things hadn't been worked out yet.

Also, as Mittens said. Technically Shenmue II is the post game ;) Especially if you're carrying over your save ;)

But the game does at least give you that sly hint on the final active day. You can keep doing stuff freely in the world...or you can progress forward with the story and end the game.
 
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tomboz said:
I’d never really given it much thought until now because I’ve never been compelled to collect all of the capsule toys myself, but I do think this is a valid criticism. For a game that seems to pride itself on giving the player freedom, forcing them to finish the game within a set amount of time after starting work at the harbor seems a little crappy. I mean… it makes sense to a certain degree as Ryo has left Yokosuka, but there was nothing stopping them from adding a free roam section prior to Ryo meeting Master Chen and Guizang at the harbor and allowing players to choose when they triggered the ending.

Even so, to the OP, I think you’d be doing yourself a massive disservice by skipping S2. It’s a much better game. If you do play, however, just keep in mind that a couple of the arcade machines are missable. S2 does handle the above a little better than the first game though, as it allows players to choose when they leave the first area and gives them a full day and a half to wrap things up in the second. Arcade games, street fights and other things that players find while playing the game can also be replayed by reloading a completed save file.
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While it may be a valid criticism, OP's attitude and demeanor absolutely sucks. You're disappointed, we get it, but getting all worked up because you missed the slothouse? Really? Play II and you won't even THINK about the slothouse, let alone worry about, "what you missed."

Just the absolute wrong way to go about things...
 
If the criticism is valid or not is datable I'd say. In a hindsight it might be when juding the by modern standards but not by old standards. No story driven game had a new game plus modus back then. If you missed a Gf in ff8 for example you had to use a old save or start over. Same thing for Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil and all the other story driven games. it was just normal back then. It might be very inconvenient from todays point of view but calling it flaw is a bit far fetched. Nobody knew stuff like that back then. And you can't miss stuff you do not know or even expect. The op is talking about the Dreamcast game. If we would be talking about the remaster I'd say the guys doing the remaster should maybe have considered to let the people revist their collected stuff again.

Besides that Shenmue is quite open for a 1999 game. You could spend days just collecting stuff and fooling around without the game is forcing you to progress. It is still no game plus but is way more collector friendly than most other 1990s story games.
 
I think the comparisons to early Final Fantasies around that time are very valid. Obviously completely different games but still story driven RPGs with lots of mini games/things to do, and they both “locked” you out as you say when you finished the game unless you had an earlier save.

No one was complaining that they couldn’t go back to the Gold Saucer or fight Ruby Weapon with FFVII lol. Plus, there was no second game to carry your data forward to
 
sayuhhm said:
You get one shot to live through this period of Ryo's life and spend the time you have the way you want to, and if that means collecting everything in one run, then you kinda have to plan for that. You've only got the time you've got before its time to leave, just like real life
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If we're going to keep bringing up that it's a "life simulator" and that it's "like real life" then maybe you can explain to me how 2 guys can beat up 70 guys in a row back-to-back, and how none of them have a knife or a gun. This is a game.

9dragons said:
It would also make no sense for Ryo coming back after the ending of Shenmue because he is on the ship to Hong Kong now.
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That's not what I'm asking for. Easy game design: they should've let you roam and work the job until you saved up enough money and was sufficiently prepared to make the perilous journey to China. Once you're ready you get on the boat. Game design 101.

Hiki said:
If someone finished God of War the person will have to load a game in a specefic part of the game or start a new game, Resident Evil the same thing and so many other story driven games are like this.
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The difference is none of those games have a hundred collectibles. Shenmue is open world with loaaaads of side stuff to collect and do. If you're going to offer loads of stuff to collect and do, whether it's level-based or open-world story driven you should let the player experience it instead of cutting it short and stealing it from under their nose like a thief.

danielmann861 said:
Well technically this is the reason they give you the hint on the very last active day in the notebook. Something along the lines of "say goodbye to your friends and family"
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This is after you start the forklifting job, when you're already on rails to finish the game and have no free time because you have a daytime job and then he can't leave the harbour until you explore the cutscenes.

9dragons said:
If the criticism is valid or not is datable I'd say. In a hindsight it might be when juding the by modern standards but not by old standards. No story driven game had a new game plus modus back then. If you missed a Gf in ff8 for example you had to use a old save or start over. Same thing for Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil and all the other story driven games. it was just normal back then. It might be very inconvenient from todays point of view but calling it flaw is a bit far fetched. Nobody knew stuff like that back then.
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I don't want an NG+, I just want basic game design where the player gets the option when to finish the game. Pokemon did this in 1996, where you can explore the world and collect Pokemon once you finished the story. Did Suzuki not have a Gameboy?!

Hiki said:
When i finished the game for the first time i did not complete the capsule toys, cassette tapes, i missed a lot of clues and much more.
All of this was an incentive for me to play the game again
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This is not viable because Inesan gives you a pathetic 500 yen a day. That's 5 capsules or 3 raffle tickets. I blow through that in 1 minute of gameplay. Then you have to wait solid 20 minutes idle in order to sleep again. You don't even have enough money to enjoy the side stuff the game has to offer. Then when the game finally gives you a proper source of money with forklifting, it's GAME OVER you're on rails to end the game irretrievably. And there's no time off work to spend on doing the side stuff; you're stuck in the harbour. Ridiculous game.


Lord Tentei said:
All in all. besides you not knowing this, did you enjoy the game man?
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Yes it was a great game, except:
  1. Clunkiest movement controls. I never touched the analog stuck, why it's the D-pad?!
  2. Racist character design
  3. So many loading screens, moving around the world takes ages
  4. It feels like a waiting simulator (maybe this is a plus because I got so many chores done around the house "playing" this game)
  5. Nothing is explained about the Slothouse. What are these SEGA tokens for? I can't trade them in anywhere. I read the manual AND passport and it said nothing about what to do with tokens. (Barman takes my tokens when I exit but they still show in my inventory?!)
  6. So many collectibles; no money to get them.
  7. 100 collectibles but buying from the shop in the slowest possible way 1-by-1.
  8. NPCs who have nothing to say are rude to me
  9. When learning moves the hint on the VMU only shows AFTER you executed the move correctly. I spent half an hour trying to do the Swallow Tail move Master Chen teaches you at the end of the game, guessing the buttons.
  10. Pointless shops like Mahjong (but you can't play Mahjong!), Nagai Industries and all those food places. Nothing to do in them and game doesn't take you there.
  11. Inesan keeps pestering me about getting home by 10pm but actually there's no penalty for running out the clock: you just teleport to your bed.
Except those things and the ruining my save file yeah it's a great game.
 
I really ought to know better than to get involved in this, but my God you're rude. Or if you're not rude, the way you come across is rude. Lots of people more patient than I are calmly trying to explain things, but your responses are really rather aggressive. I am normally polite, but something about your mannerisms really rub me up the wrong way, even if most of your criticisms seem valid. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt being new, but mostly this is a pleasant forum, so forgive me if your mannerisms rankle somewhat.

  1. Clunkiest movement controls. I never touched the analog stuck, why it's the D-pad?! - In the original Dreamcast game, the analogue stick moved Ryo's head. Bizarre game design, but remember, this was 20 years ago and the Dreamcast didn't have dual analog sticks.
  2. Racist character design - If the game was made today based on its original design, then I wouldn't say racist (i'm assuming you're referring to Tom), but I would say that it wouldn't go down so well today. It's more weird than anything else. The VO for Shenmue III is much more appropriate.
  3. So many loading screens, moving around the world takes ages - If you're playing this on modern consoles, then this isn't even a criticism. Like everything loads in a matter of seconds. If you're playing on the Dreamcast, then yes, lots of loading screens, but what do you expect? Nearly every game had loads of loading screens back in the day.
  4. It feels like a waiting simulator (maybe this is a plus because I got so many chores done around the house "playing" this game): Shenmue I yes, but Shenmue II allows you to skip time at key points.
  5. Nothing is explained about the Slothouse. What are these SEGA tokens for? I can't trade them in anywhere. I read the manual AND passport and it said nothing about what to do with tokens. (Barman takes my tokens when I exit but they still show in my inventory?!) - It's not like a modern AAA game where everything is linked to something. The games were there to add realism and to have fun and get lost in the world
  6. So many collectibles; no money to get them - perhaps work harder and better at the docks? A real life lesson for you there! Also, you can get capsules and cassettes at the harbour.
  7. 100 collectibles but buying from the shop in the slowest possible way 1-by-1. - OK, this is kinda annoying today, but Shenmue III allows you to buy multiple things at the same time.
  8. NPCs who have nothing to say are rude to me: Seriously? Keep away from the schoolgirls or you'll really be triggered.
  9. When learning moves the hint on the VMU only shows AFTER you executed the move correctly. I spent half an hour trying to do the Swallow Tail move Master Chen teaches you at the end of the game, guessing the buttons. The idea is that you listen to what they say and interpret it into the controls. This was pretty clever game design.
  10. Pointless shops like Mahjong (but you can't play Mahjong!), Nagai Industries and all those food places. Nothing to do in them and game doesn't take you there. - Again, this is a 20 year old game...
  11. Inesan keeps pestering me about getting home by 10pm but actually there's no penalty for running out the clock: you just teleport to your bed. As amusing as it would be to see Ine-san give Ryo a spanking, I think it's more her character and her fears for Ryo more than anything else.
 
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Gambling game runners are usually rude af... especially when you win a shitty toy in the gacha lucky hits

litte fucks
 
@SpaghettiCat I'll answer you queries in order if I may:

  1. Clunkiest movement controls. I never touched the analog stuck, why it's the D-pad?! While I understand the sentiment analogue controls were not the norm back then and in the early stages of implementation. It felt clunky even in 1999/2000 but it was a choice made by the team considering this started development in the mid 90's when analogue really wasn't a thing.
  2. Racist character design. I mean it's a Japanese game set in Japan so most are going to be designed as they should be but if you're referring to Tom in particular then I would suggest it is stereotypical and may draw attention by today's standards. But if you're suggesting the whole game is that way then I would really suggest think again.
  3. So many loading screens, moving around the world takes ages. Judging by a comment made below you;re on original hardware, so kudos for that. Back in 1999 this game was pushing the DC to it's limits. The Dreamcast has 16 MB main RAM, along with an additional 8 MB of RAM for graphic textures and 2 MB of RAM for sound. So to put that into context the file compression they had to use to get this game on a GD-ROM is nothing short of a marvel. A trade off of this compression is having to load areas as you approach them as they are stored individually (inc shops), like literally every disc-based game did back then and to an extent they do now. Ever played Assassins Creed and waited 2-3 mins for an area to load? By your definition you should be upset by this as well. This was also rectified in the re-releases where loading is about 3 seconds per area. Or if you have a GDEMU that speeds things up on DC.
  4. It feels like a waiting simulator (maybe this is a plus because I got so many chores done around the house "playing" this game). OK a fair point which is rectified in Shenmue 2 with the implementation of a wait system.
  5. Nothing is explained about the Slothouse. What are these SEGA tokens for? I can't trade them in anywhere. I read the manual AND passport and it said nothing about what to do with tokens. (Barman takes my tokens when I exit but they still show in my inventory?!) They're there for you to kill time while waiting and to gain certificates/toys for reaching certain ticket milestones. However due to gambling laws at the time you couldn't exchange them for money. It's totally optional and is there to add to the world. You can continue this in Shenmue 2.
  6. So many collectibles; no money to get them. Disagree here. You start with 10k yen. Now depending on what you do with that 10k it can get eaten quickly. However after you buy the Hong Kong ticket, assuming you haven't gone mad with the money before then you can have a fairly decent sum to blow on toys, arcades etc. Add in the forklift money which you can use at night between the work days and also on the last day and you have plenty to blow away. The game even says you should talk to everyone before you get locked into the final part of the game, admittedly it isn't 100% clear what's happening, but this is another chance to blow money. Shenmue 2 at least gives you some warning around leaving an area.
  7. 100 collectibles but buying from the shop in the slowest possible way 1-by-1. Again I get it and it is quickened in Shenmue 2 but it's hardly a massive issue.
  8. NPCs who have nothing to say are rude to me. OK this is flatly ridiculous. If you're hurt by that I really don't know what to say.
  9. When learning moves the hint on the VMU only shows AFTER you executed the move correctly. I spent half an hour trying to do the Swallow Tail move Master Chen teaches you at the end of the game, guessing the buttons. You mean swallow flip. Yeah I've seen people struggle with that but I do get the idea is to feel your way through the moves and did you struggle with any of the other instruction? Shadow-Step can be tough but it's in keeping with the other moves.
  10. Pointless shops like Mahjong (but you can't play Mahjong!), Nagai Industries and all those food places. Nothing to do in them and game doesn't take you there. Like almost every game known to humankind then. The difference here is that you can talk to the NPC's and go there if you want to. It's world building and I'd rather that than 100 different buildings with no one in them.
  11. Inesan keeps pestering me about getting home by 10pm but actually there's no penalty for running out the clock: you just teleport to your bed. That's part of her character, she's worried about Ryo but she knows she can't control him but appeal to his better nature as he is an adult. Also you get an early cut-scene if you stay out late with your friends staging some sort of intervention.

So to point out, as a few members have said, there is definitely some grounding in your concerns about the game. I take issue in that some of the issues have been put across in a manner that could be construed as rude. Now whether deliberate or not the tone of your replies bothers me and clearly has got the backs up of some of the other users. So I'm politely telling you to be mindful of your tone. Engage in discussions by all means, hell be critical that's the point of a forum, but do it in a manner that you would want someone to engage with you on.

Welcome to the forums and I do hope you give Shenmue 2 a go.
 
SpaghettiCat said:
This is after you start the forklifting job, when you're already on rails to finish the game and have no free time because you have a daytime job and then he can't leave the harbour until you explore the cutscenes.



Yes it was a great game, except:
  1. Clunkiest movement controls. I never touched the analog stuck, why it's the D-pad?!
  2. Racist character design
  3. So many loading screens, moving around the world takes ages
  4. It feels like a waiting simulator (maybe this is a plus because I got so many chores done around the house "playing" this game)
  5. Nothing is explained about the Slothouse. What are these SEGA tokens for? I can't trade them in anywhere. I read the manual AND passport and it said nothing about what to do with tokens. (Barman takes my tokens when I exit but they still show in my inventory?!)
  6. So many collectibles; no money to get them.
  7. 100 collectibles but buying from the shop in the slowest possible way 1-by-1.
  8. NPCs who have nothing to say are rude to me
  9. When learning moves the hint on the VMU only shows AFTER you executed the move correctly. I spent half an hour trying to do the Swallow Tail move Master Chen teaches you at the end of the game, guessing the buttons.
  10. Pointless shops like Mahjong (but you can't play Mahjong!), Nagai Industries and all those food places. Nothing to do in them and game doesn't take you there.
  11. Inesan keeps pestering me about getting home by 10pm but actually there's no penalty for running out the clock: you just teleport to your bed.
Except those things and the ruining my save file yeah it's a great game.
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No, it's the day you get fired from the forklift job. You have one of two choices. Continue on with the story and end the game...or spend some extra time pursuing collectiables back in Dobuita before moving on ;) There is only one major deadline in the game and that comes if you hang around until March and get the bad ending. But you are literally free to keep spending time in the world rather than push on with the main story which locks you out. That's the point of the final hint in question. It's the game giving you a sly hint that if you carry on then it will lock you out.

As for the list

1.) Kudos for playing it on the Dreamcast. It is a bit weird to control Ryo with the D pad, but alas, I put this down to the way it was designed. You control Ryo's head (camera) with the analog and movement with the Dpad. Clunky? Yes but I would assume limitations of the Dreamcast controller. Besides, that was an era where I think developers were still experimenting with 3D in general. Nothing had been set in stone and it was sort of the Wild West in the way developers approached 3D design as opposed to today where everything is almost standardized. Shenmue II on the Dreamcast does fix this issue though as you can toggle movement to the stick in the options.

2.) I disagree...I would say maybe stereotypical character design. Racist character design to me implies hate and I don't get the feeling its a hateful game in the slightest. Stereotypical? Yes. I would very much say stereotypical.

3.) The game came out at a time when there was no method of Data Streaming from the Disc. Not to mention the limitations of the hardware in general. This was GTA's big innovation on the PS2 in the sense that they could stream large chunks of area from the disc. Something that was not afforded to Shenmue at the time. Instead, Shenmue split each section and loaded each area individually. Something that is less a problem when you play on a Dreamcast modded with an ODE (or if you play the remastered versions) but it is what it is. That era was infamous for long load times from CDs in general. Limitations of the hardware.

4.) The rhythm of Shenmue is very much this; you get one or two story events per day to pursue followed by free time to explore the world at your own pace. The game is really split into three modes of play. Detective Mode. Battle/QTE mode. And FREE mode. FREE mode promoting your chance to simply just explore the world and collect stuff. While I do agree it's not perfect, it is fairly intentional. I mean for me, I've said before that I think Shenmue is a glorified tutorial for what was to come as Shenmue II does flesh out its world a little better. It fleshes out the job system. Gives you more freedom in how you earn money and makes money more important. As much as I love the original game, it is still a little bit tutorial in feel. But yeah, the game can be simply boiled down to those three modes of play. That's the basic rhythm of Shenmue but its also what I like about it. That it actually promotes the idea of exploring its world at your own pace.

5.) Well to be fair, nothing is explained in general in Shenmue :p Even the combat system has no real tutorial :p Truth is you can't do anything with the tokens other than accumulate them. The real victory to be had in the slot house comes from the rare capsule toys you can win while playing. I also assume this is a reflection of Japan's weird real world gambling laws as gambling is technically illegal in that country. Not that it stops them ;) The tokens are just there though to keep you playing and the prizes to be had are simply the rare capsule toys you can win while playing.

6.) While I've never gone for full collection...I have to assume someone has done full collection in Shenmue, right? I mean I would assume it was balanced and there is a way to earn everything in the game, right?

7.) Intentional design choice. I get it. It's slow and clunky compared to what was to come in Shenmue III, but I think it was just an intentional design choice striving for the idea of realism. A big part of this game is examining its world through Ryo's eyes and generally just living Ryo's life.

8.) Really? So every random person you meet in real life is also expected to be nice to you?

9.) I mean the audio clues are pretty obvious. This was one of my favorite things about Shenmue. That it didn't give you the obvious visual prompt and instead asked you to pay attention to what they were saying. The clues are usually pretty obvious. Swallow flip can be difficult to time, but once you figure it out its rewarding as all hell.

10.) Yeah, a Mahjong mini game would have been nice. As too would it have been to eat food in restaurants (even if it was just a pointless cut scene like drinking a can of soda)...I've always said that. It would have been nice for the restaurants to be a little more active as it never made sense to me that you could drink a soft drink but you couldn't eat anything in game. (shrugs)...I still think there were a lot of things they wanted to do in this game that simply just didn't get finished. The cinema is another example. There is a Cinema on the map yet it's completely inaccessible. Just makes me wonder what more they wanted to do?

11.) Gee, it's almost like they're building the illusion that Ine-San actually cares about you and is WORRIED about you ;) That and its also a sly hint that if you come home early, you might get a surprise cut scene that here and there ;)
 
3) I didn't even get to experience the whole game, like I didn't know what you're supposed to do in the Slot House, or you have to feed the cat tuna or you can re-visit the Heartbeats Bar, or play some of the mini-games and arcade machines that I haven't tried.

You had the entire game to play it at your pace and there's a decent amount of down time even when you're just focused in the story......you played it wrong.
 
It really sounds like that the original poster has not touched retro games since they were no retro yet. Most of the complaints sounds like from person that has not played any old games in ages.

Yes the swallow

attack is a bit tricky but the instructions are clear. If you know your buttons you can make it. Might be hard for someone that is used that games throw flashing icons in the face of the player.

The load times are not worse than other games. For such a big game in 1999 the load times are fine. I would recommend the original poster to never touch the Dreamcast or PS2 Version of Half Life. That are bad loading times. They are everywhere .

The controls are also ok but you have to get used to it.

At the end of the Day the op seems to complain that a old game plays like a old game with all the quricks the old games have.


That is a bit weird.
 
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