Why did Shenmue 1 and 2 struggle to capture more of an audience?

[spud1897]

Hello,

While doing an interview (to be released in the new year) I raised a question around why Shenmue (outside of the issues with the DC) didn't catch on.

Without me giving too much away the answer was very intriguing.

What are you guys thoughts? I will be including some in the next recording!

 

[hmjohnny]

Honestly, aside from the obvious issues with the success of the DC limiting its exposure I think the issue is that Shenmue 1 is a deeply flawed game.

When it came out it definitely had the wow factor from a technological standpoint. Especially if you weren't a PC gamer the level of detail and interactivity and the way the world felt and drew you in was unparalleled. Graphically the game was unrivaled and it marked the next big leap for games in a way a lot of people had never seen before. I think this did a lot to garner initial attention and sales and even carry the game for a bit but fundamentally this doesn't make a good game.

Shenmue 1 is bloated, about twice as long as needs to be. It meanders in pace, is slow and boring and obtuse at times, is sometimes slavish towards trying to make the world feel 'real' rather than tell a compelling narrative. Worst of all it suffers from the major design flaw of having you wait around in real time for events to happen. I believe this was a result of splitting S1 and S2 into two games and expanding upon the first game too much. I suspect it was a business decision to try and recoup the cost of development by selling the first chapter as a standalone game on a system Sega must have known whose days were numbered.

I don't think S1 is a bad game btw, I think it has great highs, a lot of excellent and compelling moments that really draw you into the mystery of the story and flow in a natural way but it's flaws are a lot to get over and I really think it turned a lot of people away from the series. I remember finishing Shenmue and thinking it was alright and I would give the sequel a chance but if I didn't like S2 I was out. I didn't even go into S2 with high hopes but I saw the potential in the series, I still do, that was hinted at but wasn't fully realized.

Looking at the HD re-releases I watched a lot of reviews on the games and they almost always focused on the first game. It just seemed like the vast majority of people couldn't get past S1 and just didn't see the potential in the series and took it at face value and then never bothered to try S2. I think it's the most common bad faith argument against Shenmue, that the series is judged solely on the flaws of the first game. However, it turned enough people off that they don't see what could be so great about the series. Most people look at Shenmue as a series and call it "that forklift simulator" or the game where you can open every drawer, and not realize the sequel is nothing like that. Watching Yahtzee's review put it best for me when he said after playing Shenmue that he didn't understand why anyone would want a sequel to this game (referring to the KS for S3). But that's the thing, no one wants a sequel to Shenmue, we already got that with S2. What we wanted was a sequel with that game and if he ever bothered to play it he may see why but like so many others S1 deterred him from giving the sequel an open minded chance, or a chance at all.

On the other hand maybe I'm overthinking how people would have reacted to S2 anyway. If the game had a wider exposure maybe the mainstream impression would be just as poor but I'd like to believe if S2 got a wider release in 2001/2002 and a better English dub it would have been at least a moderately successful game and S3 and the future of the series may not have been in jeopardy

 

[Thomasina]

The only thing I can think of is that it's slow. I really don't know, tbh. I'd like to see that answer.

 

[Mittens2317]

There's no single reason, a multitude of factors come into play here. I know that people like simple answers, and some even throw in the whole "oh it was far too sophisticated for the CoD fan boys" shite (even though the JRPG was arguably King around that time) but if all people were forced to play it, I don't think many would like it.

I believe Shenmue found its audience very well, and that audience stayed. The others who bought the original and didn't like it dropped off instantly, regardless of platform switch. That's why I don't put much stock in the sales figures of the original. It simply isn't indicative of the fan base. We're loud, but that's because we have collective small man syndrome.

Shenmue isn't the kinda game people would honestly consider putting in their Top 10 Greatest of All Time, but those who like it will always put it in their Top 3 Favourites. I think that's the distinction. It isn't really about the technical quality, but the enjoyability found by few, but ignites a brighter flame of passion than any first person powerhouse or pixel perfect platformer could ever hope to achieve.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

I can’t love this post enough ^

 

[danielmann861]

I think it's a multitude of factors. As I always have thought it's a multitude of factors.

It came out on a console that didn't have anywhere near the install base of its competitors. I really do feel like that is a major contributing factor. It came out on a console that while did well enough, was nowhere near the juggernaut of its fellow consoles.

Also, I think at the time that maybe people weren't ready for it or didn't know what to make of it. It was a game that decidedly took its time and asked the player to take their time in a market of games that were, at the time, all about instant gratification. Games back then were decidedly faster pace and more about gameplay and getting the player into the action as quickly as possible and keeping them engaged while telling a bare minimum story.

Shenmue was a game where you spent more time roaming its world talking to people than you did getting into action. Sure, there are fights on all three discs of the original Shenmue if you look for them. Otherwise, if you miss those events, you're left waiting for most of the action until the 2nd and mostly 3rd disc. At that time, it was unheard off to have a game that really asked you to take your time with it.

Maybe people weren't ready for that. I feel like it's only now where people are maybe starting embrace the slow burn. I mean look at Red Dead 2 and how many people were amazed by NPC's giving you directions. Shit, the Dreamcast was doing that shit years before R* even attempted it. It made me laugh when people were going gaga over that and left me thinking "that's how far ahead of the curb Yu Suzuki and AM2 were."

I truly believe that is a big thing. I think people didn't know what to make of it back then because the template for open world wasn't in place. Shenmue was largely experimental with its ideas. GTA III eventually set the populist blue print for all open world games that open world games are STILL following to this day. But Shenmue had no such template and instead asked the player to spend time in a world where they were mostly asked to interact at their own pace. Coming from a world of games that were heavily about fast paced action, I don't think many people really knew what to make of it.

And eventually due to its perceived flaws (bad voice acting or sometimes sluggish pace), it became a meme for people to mock or as Jeff Gerstmann puts it. "It was a mish mash of novel ideas that didn't come together." A statement that I disagree with for the record but I think that became the popular opinion about Shenmue and partially why it didn't catch on.

Those who tried it and spent time with it living in its world and playing it at their own pace loved it for what it offered. Those who didn't know what to make of it simply fell away from it and moved onto other popular games at the time. And those popular games of the time became the trendsetters going forward.

As an example of this, I always point to the Giant Bomb endurance run. They simply spent most of their time hitting the main story beats and completely missed on most of the good stuff simply because they were most focused on the main quest as opposed to simply living in its world and embracing it and thus found themselves bored by it. I think if that's how you played Shenmue back in the day then you were probably gonna be left disappointed and bored by it with no will to come back to it. Whereas those of us who explored or spent time with it were rewarded with an experience unlike any other.

But I do find it interesting that more and more I'm finding modern open world games to be seemingly dipping back into the Shenmue DNA a little by simply asking the player to take their time. RDR2 felt a bit in that direction to me and it is interesting how people seem to be accepting this. So it tells me that Shenmue wasn't wrong to do what it did. But like a lot of things SEGA did at the time, it was simply ahead of its time and I don't think people at that time knew what to make of it. Hence it never became a thing.

Long and short of it. GTA III was the accessible open world game that became the trendsetter and the blue print for what open world games would inevitably become. Shenmue was the experiement to many people and for some it was endearing as all hell while for others it was just confusing at the time to see a game with such a decidedly casual pace that simply asked you to wait for events or asked you to find stuff at your own pace. It played by its own rules and I don't think people really knew what to make of it back then where as something like GTA was easy to understand and set the template going forward. Only now does it seem that modern open world games seem to be playing catch up in their attempt to create fully realized worlds.

It's no different to movies that are largely ahead of their time. I think of Shenmue in the same way as I think of something like Kevin Smith's Mallrats. It was ahead of its time and the player base at the time just weren't ready to embrace it. That wasn't what they were looking for in games at that time. Combine that with the fact that it was on a less popular console that was overshadowed by the impending PS2 launch.

 

[Guppy]

A few reasons come to mind. First the series was tied exclusively to a struggling console. Second, the genre which it belongs to was basically dead by the time Shenmue came out, and adventure games thrived on PC rather than consoles. By not having much instant gratification like any other type of game meant it was niche in concept already. And last, the game setting was an acquired taste, as it was set in the 80s realistic Japan and Hong Kong, dealing with the mundane and in a foreign culture, instead of the tried and true universal sci-fi and fantasy themes, or war and crime life as seen in other mainstream games.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

A proper remake could combine the first two games and cut a lot of the fat in Shenmue 1. Lack of wait feature hurt the game for casual players because there isn't that much to actually "do" while waiting; of course, us Shenmue nerds love to just soak up them Yokosuka vibes. They could also cut out the entire harbor job/Mad Angels segment without missing too much of an actual story beat. Disc 3 is actually my least favorite to replay because there's no story progression, just work and nightly scuffles with the Mad Angels. My first playthrough I was really starting to think Disc 3 would be set in Hong Kong until that skinhead ate the boat ticket, d'oh!!

While Shenmue 2 prolonged the Yuanda Zhu hunt a bit longer than I liked, the pacing and action were on point throughout. And the new characters were excellent and really enriched the story. If more people completed Shenmue 1 thus playing Shenmue 2, it would have gained more esteem. The bungled release in the US only made commercial success that much more difficult to achieve.

Despite this the first two games as they are are damn near perfect experiences in my eyes. I'm glad they exist as they are.

 

[9dragons]

It come out at the wrong time on the wrong console. When it was released the unstopple Sony Hype for the PS2 was unstoppable at point and so everything Sega related including Shenmue was overlooked. It is quite simple and sad Story. Games like Shenmue were more innovative than everything that Sony had on the table for many years to come but Sega did not had the marketing power of Sony. The masses were also not mature enough for Shenmue yet. At least on consoles. As a Pc exclusive it maybe could win the hearts of some hardcore adventure fans. But that would not be enough to make the game mainstream.

 

[Mittens2317]

A proper remake could combine the first two games and cut a lot of the fat in Shenmue 1. Lack of wait feature hurt the game for casual players because there isn't that much to actually "do" while waiting; of course, us Shenmue nerds love to just soak up them Yokosuka vibes. They could also cut out the entire harbor job/Mad Angels segment without missing too much of an actual story beat. Disc 3 is actually my least favorite to replay because there's no story progression, just work and nightly scuffles with the Mad Angels. My first playthrough I was really starting to think Disc 3 would be set in Hong Kong until that skinhead ate the boat ticket, d'oh!!

I think the opposite tbh. A full-on reboot would be much more appealing to me than a remake, and rather than cutting things down, more should be added. Give the player shit to do other than train and play arcade games. Expand on each segment of the investigation in Yokosuka rather than "find correct NPC, collect three diary entries, go to right location, trigger cut scene/add to inventory/complete QTE/win fight".

One of the great things for me was that it was the first game that had up to three different ways to get from story point A to B in a number of cases. That kind of player choice was completely new to me, so by doubling down on that and just going balls to the wall with it would be incredible.

Disc 3 could be more than just an FLT job. Give a path that leads to him actually infiltrating the Mad Angels, one where he works for Master Chen and Gui Zhang - over time - agrees to help, a path that sees you train with Shozo and observes the gang from a more stealthy perspective.

Shenmue has so many moments that are brief and pass by in the blink of an eye, character development that seemingly happens off screen. The material is there, it was just never properly developed (probably because Yu added far too much to what was essentially just the intro)

I've said before though, it's the kinda game that can appeal for different reasons, so that lack of definition can be its downfall in certain ways.

Oh well, it won't happen, but who cares? We have what's there and that'll do me.

 

[WuyingRen]

I’m still firmly in the camp of it being a result of the Dreamcast’s failure. 10% of the install base bought it. Not sure there are any PS2 games that come close to that kind of ratio.

I guess you could also look at the only comparable games of the era (GTA) and put it down to the games not allowing you to commit crimes. This would kind of be in keeping with Yakuza going on to be more successful - although I don’t like that comparison too much as they released at very different times on very different systems (not to mention it taking a while for the Yakuza series taking a while to catch on in the West).

Maybe it being a Japanese game didn’t help either. Its slow pacing, poor localization and dub were probably off-putting to some, but again, I’d refer back to its success on the Dreamcast as an argument for this not being the case. Every game/series has mechanics and ideas that are off-putting to some gamers but there are generally just as many people who love those mechanics as there are those who hate it.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

I think the opposite tbh. A full-on reboot would be much more appealing to me than a remake, and rather than cutting things down, more should be added. Give the player shit to do other than train and play arcade games. Expand on each segment of the investigation in Yokosuka rather than "find correct NPC, collect three diary entries, go to right location, trigger cut scene/add to inventory/complete QTE/win fight".

One of the great things for me was that it was the first game that had up to three different ways to get from story point A to B in a number of cases. That kind of player choice was completely new to me, so by doubling down on that and just going balls to the wall with it would be incredible.

Disc 3 could be more than just an FLT job. Give a path that leads to him actually infiltrating the Mad Angels, one where he works for Master Chen and Gui Zhang - over time - agrees to help, a path that sees you train with Shozo and observes the gang from a more stealthy perspective.

Shenmue has so many moments that are brief and pass by in the blink of an eye, character development that seemingly happens off screen. The material is there, it was just never properly developed (probably because Yu added far too much to what was essentially just the intro)

I've said before though, it's the kinda game that can appeal for different reasons, so that lack of definition can be its downfall in certain ways.

Oh well, it won't happen, but who cares? We have what's there and that'll do me.

Oh, I'd 100% prefer this kind of remake, but I was thinking how they might realistically approach a remake of the first two games that focused on a more mainstream accessibility. Neither one will happen.

Those simple branching paths is one of my favorite aspects of the games, as well as the branching QTEs. Made the games that much more replayable. Shenmue 3 had none of that unfortunately.

 

[Jerrid'sRamenShop]

The game was not bad on any level. It was praised by many reviewers and had a score of generally 80% to 90% with a few 70% and a couple 100%. If most people were worried about reviews, they still would of bought the game.

It had an assortment of ideas, features and game play mechanics. It had fighting in it and amazing graphics so it was good for the hardcore, so those are two hard selling points. It is also a life simulator of sorts, so it would appeal to the general audience as well. It really did have a little bit of everything.

The only thing I could see really knocking it and to me it was the whole reason I even bought it and the Dreamcast, was because it took place in a Japanese setting and back in the 80's. To me I liked S2 less, because it was no longer in Japan.

But the main factor was that it was on the Dreamcast and then on the original XBOX, with both consoles behind their rivals. The Dreamcast could not play DVDs, so it was over looked in favor of the PS2. XBOX just did not have a stellar line up and was the late comer at almost two years. It also could play DVDs, but you had to buy the remote to unlock that feature and you had to pay for XBOX Live and that was not even available at launch. You had to use a PC to get your XBOX online until then. I did it for Halo as I recall. Xfire. Xcross or something like that.

 

[Jerrid'sRamenShop]

I think the opposite tbh. A full-on reboot would be much more appealing to me than a remake, and rather than cutting things down, more should be added. Give the player shit to do other than train and play arcade games. Expand on each segment of the investigation in Yokosuka rather than "find correct NPC, collect three diary entries, go to right location, trigger cut scene/add to inventory/complete QTE/win fight".

One of the great things for me was that it was the first game that had up to three different ways to get from story point A to B in a number of cases. That kind of player choice was completely new to me, so by doubling down on that and just going balls to the wall with it would be incredible.

Disc 3 could be more than just an FLT job. Give a path that leads to him actually infiltrating the Mad Angels, one where he works for Master Chen and Gui Zhang - over time - agrees to help, a path that sees you train with Shozo and observes the gang from a more stealthy perspective.

Shenmue has so many moments that are brief and pass by in the blink of an eye, character development that seemingly happens off screen. The material is there, it was just never properly developed (probably because Yu added far too much to what was essentially just the intro)

I've said before though, it's the kinda game that can appeal for different reasons, so that lack of definition can be its downfall in certain ways.

Oh well, it won't happen, but who cares? We have what's there and that'll do me.

I do not even see the need to remake the game, just mod it to make it what we want. The base game is already there. I would love to see the shops actually be able to be bought from. The buildings and NPCs who are the shop owners are already there. Do it the lazy way and just make it where there is a drop menu. Or go more in depth by handling product or choosing like you do at the convenience stores.

More areas to explore, more NPCs, have NPCs change clothes on a daily basis. Only people who would wear the norm everyday would be the kids going to school until they got home. New capsule toys, new arcades, new fighting moves. You could even play from the perspective of other NPCs. Create new jobs. Be able to go into homes. A whole bunch of stuff could be modded into the game.

 

[Mittens2317]

I’m still firmly in the camp of it being a result of the Dreamcast’s failure. 10% of the install base bought it. Not sure there are any PS2 games that come close to that kind of ratio.

I guess you could also look at the only comparable games of the era (GTA) and put it down to the games not allowing you to commit crimes. This would kind of be in keeping with Yakuza going on to be more successful - although I don’t like that comparison too much as they released at very different times on very different systems (not to mention it taking a while for the Yakuza series taking a while to catch on in the West).

Maybe it being a Japanese game didn’t help either. Its slow pacing, poor localization and dub were probably off-putting to some, but again, I’d refer back to its success on the Dreamcast as an argument for this not being the case. Every game/series has mechanics and ideas that are off-putting to some gamers but there are generally just as many people who love those mechanics as there are those who hate it.

For context...

Dreamcast sold 9.13m units (less than the Saturn)
Shenmue sold 1.2m copies.
That's 13%.

PS2 sold 158m units (best selling console of all time)
GTA: San Andreas sold 17.3m copies (on the PS2 alone)
Just shy of 11%.

Gameboy (& Colour) sold 118m units combined.
Super Mario Land sold 18.1m copies (I'm not including Tetris because it was bundled, nor the Pokemon games as they were often dual purchases)
That's 15%.

Xbox 360 sold 85m units (including many additional purchases due to RRoD)
Minecraft sold 13m copies (not even in the Top 5 for the console)
That's 15%.

The Mega Drive sold 35m units.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 sold 6m copies (excluding the first one because of inflated figures due to bundling)
That's 17%.

Dreamcast sold 9.13m units (as previously established)
Sonic Adventure sold 2.42m copies.
That's 26%.

Shenmue was the fourth best selling game on the console. Also, it's worth noting that the post-GTA III era of the market was quite different to the one Shenmue was released in. The idea that it didn't do well because you couldn't commit crimes would be incorrect. We were still in an era where arcade games, racers, party games, platformers, etc. were doing better than shooters, and open worlds were some crazy fantasy.

The reason Shenmue didn't resonate with people isn't down to outside factors. I've yet to come across a single person in life or on the Internet who said "I thought it'd be good, played it, and it was shit." The people who would never have bought it in the first place never bought it, and the ones who would have did, or simply weren't around then.

Shenmue is not some hidden gem that the world would fall in love with if it'd just look at it. It was a niche game that sold better than it should have. It's SEGA and Suzuki who misjudged how popular it would be. SEGA accepted that L, and that explains the decade plus wait for Shenmue III.

Oh, I'd 100% prefer this kind of remake, but I was thinking how they might realistically approach a remake of the first two games that focused on a more mainstream accessibility. Neither one will happen.

Those simple branching paths is one of my favorite aspects of the games, as well as the branching QTEs. Made the games that much more replayable. Shenmue 3 had none of that unfortunately.

Yeah, agreed that neither would happen. The only way to appeal to a more mainstream audience, imo, is to double-down on branching narratives and sell it as such. Though if you wanted to simultaneously trim the fat, the more logical option would be to make a Telltale-esque series that's more based on the anime than the game, which would be slightly daft in itself, but make more sense. I reckon so, at least.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

Hey, you never know - the anime could become a runaway success and reignite the series if it's indeed stalled out (and let's face it - it is). Some kind of remake of sorts of 1-3 before S4 might make logical sense at that point.

 

[hmjohnny]

I don't think its relative success on the DC is an indicator that the series would have necessarily fared better on the PS2. If that were the case the 1M+ players would have continued on in greater numbers for S2 on the Xbox.

There is the argument that Shenmue was a niche game which sold on its hype and presentation alone and the audience it was going to keep remained as that's all who it appealed to. I don't think this holds however since Shenmue was always meant to be a big blockbuster mainstream game that appealed to the masses. The fact that it didn't is a failure on its part IMO due to the issues the first game had which I chock up to Suzuki's hubris at the time and his obsession with having the game be feature rich and on the cutting edge expand the development cycle and budget and causing the game to bloat.

That being said the failure of the DC did absolutely play a factor and I think Shenmue would have still been a bit more successful on the PS2 just because of the install base alone (assuming it was designed for the system in the first place) but I'm not sure if it would have been enough for the series as a whole.

 

[WuyingRen]

I don't think it's relative success on the DC is an indicator that the series would have necessarily fared better on the PS2. If that were the case the 1M+ players would have continued on in greater numbers for S2 on the Xbox.

Had they released both Shenmue 1 and Shenmue 2 on the Xbox I’m fairly certain the series would have done a lot better on the system. In the end though, the decision to only release 2 meant that Xbox gamers were expected to rely on a crappy ‘movie’ to bring them up to speed while players of the first game were expected to buy a brand new system to continue the saga (a big ask, considering many had already transitioned to the PS2 after the Dreamcast’s demise).

 

[Mittens2317]

^That raises a question that's always bugged me... Where the hell did "Xbox gamers" come from? Why would Nintendo fans jump to it when they had a console coming out? Who with a PS2 decided "I want more power and access to four games I otherwise would never have been able to play"? And PC gamers? Would they ever really stoop so low as to buy a video game console?

I'd imagine that the vast majority were a mixture of former SEGA fans and first timers. I remember buying two Dreamcasts from lads at school because they wanted to buy an Xbox. Also the only ones who had played Shenmue landed on Xbox too.

I'm not trying to invalidate your argument about the fact Shenmue should defo have been re-released on Xbox, but nonetheless, it may not have actually been necessary for many people.

Either way though, it would be interesting to find out the console histories of Xbox & PlayStation owners >25 now they've essentially replaced SEGA & Nintendo.

 

[WuyingRen]

^That raises a question that's always bugged me... Where the hell did "Xbox gamers" come from? Why would Nintendo fans jump to it when they had a console coming out? Who with a PS2 decided "I want more power and access to four games I otherwise would never have been able to play"? And PC gamers? Would they ever really stoop so low as to buy a video game console?

I'd imagine that the vast majority were a mixture of former SEGA fans and first timers. I remember buying two Dreamcasts from lads at school because they wanted to buy an Xbox. Also the only ones who had played Shenmue landed on Xbox too.

I'm not trying to invalidate your argument about the fact Shenmue should defo have been re-released on Xbox, but nonetheless, it may not have actually been necessary for many people.

Either way though, it would be interesting to find out the console histories of Xbox & PlayStation owners >25 now they've essentially replaced SEGA & Nintendo.

Pretty sure the Xbox ended up selling about 70-80 million units, so whilst some of those sales may have been people jumping ship from the Dreamcast, at most it would have been about 10 million. Given how well the Dreamcast sold in Japan and how poorly the Xbox did over here, that theoretical maximum was probably closer to 6 million, but even that sounds optimistic to me.

As for who bought the Xbox, it always surprises me when I see the system’s total unit sales as I really didn’t know many people who had one growing up. Those that I did were the kind of people who just bought every console. I got mine for free from a friend as it had a problem with the disc drive and he couldn’t be bothered to repair it, but I’d never have bought one myself.