Should have invested in YS Net instead of Ninja Theory

I think Shenmue is possible on a more limited budget, and I think it can be more successful, but Yu Suzuki needs to kind of rethink or explore other options of what a Shenmue game can look and play like in the 2020s. Games like Life Is Strange and other, 'slice of life', slower paced games that have found success over the last decade kind of prove that their is a market for something like that.

Shenmue 3 isn't a bad game and whilst people here think I am harsh on it, I always defend the game against people who just shit all over it and claim it is bad, because it isn't bad and there is greatness within it. That is the nature with modern day online discourse though. If something isn't an "8, 9 or 10/10", then clearly "it's fucking shit and should be mocked" even if it is something that has a lot going for it, but just has a few flaws or hiccups along the way. People's perceptions of what is great and what is bad are completely skewed these days.

That said, it is really easy to see why the marketing failed and why it did as poorly/averagely as it did. I think Yu Suzuki just needs to rethink some of his priorities and think outside the box. I hate using vague platitudes like that, but there is a reason why other smaller scale Adventure titles and slice of life games have found success, whereas Shenmue 3 didn't.
 
Reprise said:
I think Shenmue is possible on a more limited budget, and I think it can be more successful, but Yu Suzuki needs to kind of rethink or explore other options of what a Shenmue game can look and play like in the 2020s. Games like Life Is Strange and other, 'slice of life', slower paced games that have found success over the last decade kind of prove that their is a market for something like that.

Shenmue 3 isn't a bad game and whilst people here think I am harsh on it, I always defend the game against people who just shit all over it and claim it is bad, because it isn't bad and there is greatness within it. That is the nature with modern day online discourse though. If something isn't an "8, 9 or 10/10", then clearly "it's fucking shit and should be mocked" even if it is something that has a lot going for it, but just has a few flaws or hiccups along the way. People's perceptions of what is great and what is bad are completely skewed these days.

That said, it is really easy to see why the marketing failed and why it did as poorly/averagely as it did. I think Yu Suzuki just needs to rethink some of his priorities and think outside the box. I hate using vague platitudes like that, but there is a reason why other smaller scale Adventure titles and slice of life games have found success, whereas Shenmue 3 didn't.
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With this (and I agree S4 can happen on a smaller budget) we then enter into a discussion on whether it is/isn't fair on the community to hold out for what might be an unrealistic creative vision given the market averages I discussed before.

Not trying to start an argument at all but it is an interesting topic - at what point should the ideal 'vision' be dropped in favour of getting things done in game form? And is YS willing to do that/are people having those conversations?

I want the best possible Shenmue 4 in the vision of YS but if that isn't possible then I would hope things are moving to allow a mutally satisfactory game to come out which nails the story but maybe doesn't have too many bells and whistles.
 
spud1897 said:
With this (and I agree S4 can happen on a smaller budget) we then enter into a discussion on whether it is/isn't fair on the community to hold out for what might be an unrealistic creative vision given the market averages I discussed before.

Not trying to start an argument at all but it is an interesting topic - at what point should the ideal 'vision' be dropped in favour of getting things done in game form? And is YS willing to do that/are people having those conversations?

I want the best possible Shenmue 4 in the vision of YS but if that isn't possible then I would hope things are moving to allow a mutally satisfactory game to come out which nails the story but maybe doesn't have too many bells and whistles.
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Also, how long can you wait to see if the ideal vision in game format is viable from a budget/funding perspective? The longer we wait with no news, the less likely people will care and therefore buy a new game. Everything was set-up with the kickstarter/Shenmue 3, original HD releases and anime and it apparently wasn't enough to green light a 4th. What can change now?

This is why I would really like a manga to finish the story which would be much cheaper and Yu would be able to tell the story the way he likes without budget constraints.
 
If we say that Shenmue III is made to feel like the first 2 games and appeal more to the old fans...
Hypothetically if Yu Suzuki comes back in 2015, would you be OK with him making Shenmue III more mainstream? To ensure a longer life for the series in the modern gaming environment

What's the first feeling that comes up when you imagine a world without our version of Shenmue 3? :) I personally don't want to, but now that we know the outcome, it's easy to see that for a lasting revival of the series, the game needs to be more mainstream and less Shenmue.

Do you think Yu Suzuki regrets missing this big chance just to make a version for the old fans? Which was more important? Establishing a lasting revival for the series with a successful new installment, or satisfying backers and fans with a classic Shenmue 3 feel?

I think it would be easier to create a classic mod for a mainstream Shenmue game that makes it feel more like the old games, than a modern mod for an old style Shenmue game rejected by the mainstream...

We definitely have to make compromises for the sake of successfully completing the series. If Shenmue 4 is too mainstream, I won't be too quick to hate. :D
 
Honestly if YsNet is get outclassed by other gaming studios thats not a bad thing. Yu is one of the all time greats he's already cemented his legacy he has nothing to prove at this point. Yu only came back because a opportunity to continue Shenmue presented itself.

One if the interviewees during the Shenmue documentary referred to Yu as one of the gaming Gods during his height. Yu has made many successful titles that are critically acclaimed but continues to toss and turn over Shenmue a franchise that has not been successful. It just shows the commitment Yu has toward gaming and his art form.

Even others who have participated in the creation and progression of Shenmue have stated there is something unique and special about Shenmue. These same people have been apart of bigger more successful projects but still have a connection with Shenmue.

I say all this to show Yu and YsNet is not competing against other gaming studios. The endgame is Shenmue and to be involved in gaming somewhat. YsNet is not trying to become a mega AAA studio.
 
Changing the topic of this thread. I've seen the reviews of Hellblade 2 and they say it's just a suckier Hellblade 1.5

Ninja Theory had the opportunity to make a sequel (a luxury YS Net was unfairly denied) but they blew it and now Ninja Theory’s fate will be the immediate dissolution of their studio and the termination of all their employees.

What a sad sad sad situation. But (to quote Ryan Peyton) developers have to spend 70% of their dev time building the game systems and the remaining 30% to actually make the game. But for sequels, they get to spend 80% of their time making the game so there is no excuse for a sequel to be inferior to the original and Ninja Theory should accept their fate.

Imagine if YS Net had had the 7 years and a larger budget to make Shenmue 4... it would have been an awesome game. Instead however, the money was wasted on Ninja Theory.

We could be living our best life in Suzhou right now with Ryo but instead money was wasted on hot garbage like Hellblade 2 where u just hold up the whole time.


Microsoft should close down Ninja Theory now and invest the savings into YSNet and commission Shenmue 4. They need quality unique AA games anyway.
 
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Lol. Didn’t you start this thread by saying how much better Ninja Theory was than YS NET? Three months later, though, and they deserve to go out of business and should accept their fate?

Having played Hellblade 2, I can safely say that it’s just more of the same, which is what most fans of the original game were hoping for. I guess you could argue that Ninja Theory could have taken a few more risks this time around, but it’s risks that tend to get studios shut down, not 80+ rated games on Metacritic.

Of course, with Xbox tens of billions of dollars in the hole after the ABK deal, I’m not sure any of their studios are truly safe besides a select few.
 
WuyingRen said:
Lol. Didn’t you start this thread by saying how much better Ninja Theory was than YS NET? Three months later, though, and they deserve to go out of business and should accept their fate?

Having played Hellblade 2, I can safely say that it’s just more of the same, which is what most fans of the original game were hoping for. I guess you could argue that Ninja Theory could have taken a few more risks this time around, but it’s risks that tend to get studios shut down, not 80+ rated games on Metacritic.

Of course, with Xbox tens of billions of dollars in the hole after the ABK deal, I’m not sure any of their studios are truly safe besides a select few.
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Well you gotta understand that I had just finished Hellblade when I wrote the initial thread and I was moved emotionally by the game.

Now, granted I haven’t actually played Hellblade 2 yet (don’t have Xbox) but it seems that Ninja Theory squandered the opportunity to make a sequel that other studios like YS Net would have loved to have.
 
Unlike a lot of other studios, Ninja Theory earned the opportunity to make a sequel by releasing a game that was both critically and commercially successful. To say that they squandered that opportunity without even playing the resulting game seems a little obtuse. I’m not even sure what you’re basing that assessment on. Average critic ratings for the game are very good.
 
WuyingRen said:
Unlike a lot of other studios, Ninja Theory earned the opportunity to make a sequel by releasing a game that was both critically and commercially successful. To say that they squandered that opportunity without even playing the resulting game seems a little obtuse. I’m not even sure what you’re basing that assessment on. Average critic ratings for the game are very good.
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Yeah IGN gave Hellblade 2 a good review. But IGN is a known Shenmue hater and thus they are a crap site not to be trusted.

On the other hand the illustrious Dreamcast Guy gave Hellblade 2 a bad review:



I agree that Ninja Theory deserved to make a sequel because Hellblade 1 was great and unique. But to make a sequel that is samey means they went against their mandate to make another unique game.

YS actually takes risks with Shenmue and while gamers chaffed at the food mechanic (even though we complained about no eating in S1-2) you can better your bottom dollar that YS would have innovated again with S4.
 
WuyingRen said:
What on earth are you talking about?
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I’m saying we could have had a S4 that was the same jump in quality as S1-2 was.

Instead we got a sequel to another great game but it’s just derivative meh that will be forgotten in a month.

The gaming world would have been a richer place with S4 existing.

Instead, Hellblade 2 existing is just a symptom of what is wrong with the industry and why it might crash again.

The wrong game got a sequel is what I’m saying.
 
Firstly, I’ve no idea what Hellblade 2 has to do with Shenmue 4 and why you keep trying to compare the two franchises. Us getting a sequel to Hellblade isn’t the reason why we still don’t have Shenmue 4. We’re talking about two very different series and two very different development studios.

Secondly, the first Hellblade game was a critical and commercial success. Shenmue 3, on the other hand, failed to break even and reviewed fairly poorly. How exactly did the wrong game get a sequel?
 
WuyingRen said:
Firstly, I’ve no idea what Hellblade 2 has to do with Shenmue 4 and why you keep trying to compare the two franchises. Us getting a sequel to Hellblade isn’t the reason why we still don’t have Shenmue 4. We’re talking about two very different series and two very different development studios.

Secondly, the first Hellblade game was a critical and commercial success. Shenmue 3, on the other hand, failed to break even and reviewed fairly poorly. How exactly did the wrong game get a sequel?
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I’m comparing them because they were both low budget games punching above their weight.

Both Shenmue 3 and Hellblade were innovative unique games and yeah Hellblade was successful so it got a sequel and not Shenmue 3.

However, Ninja Theory wasted their opportunity and created a super short game where u just hold up the whole time whereas a S4 would have been innovative and gave the gaming world some much needed color.

So yeah the wrong game got a sequel. Of course hindsight is 20/20 but clearly money should have been invested in YS Net instead of Ninja Theory for a sequel.
 
It's rated 81 on Metacritic. Explain to me how that's bad.
 
The first Hellblade game cost under $10 million. Shenmue 3 cost around $20 million, at least according to Yu Suzuki. I’m not sure I’d call either a low budget game really, but with one costing around twice as much as the other, it seems strange to try and lump them both together into the same bracket (especially as the two games are nothing alike).

Also, I’m not really sure how you can possibly say that Shenmue 3 was punching above its weight, nor in what ways it was innovative. Don’t get me wrong, I certainly enjoyed it, but in a lot of ways, it felt like a bit of a step backward from Shenmue 2. In others, it felt like more of the same.

You may not like it (which, again, I think is kinda ridiculous considering you haven’t actually played it), but most of the people who enjoyed the first game almost certainly will. To say that people deserve to lose their jobs for giving fans exactly what they wanted is all kinds of ridiculous.
 
WuyingRen said:
The first Hellblade game cost under $10 million. Shenmue 3 cost around $20 million, at least according to Yu Suzuki. I’m not sure I’d call either a low budget game really, but with one costing around twice as much as the other, it seems strange to try and lump them both together into the same bracket (especially as the two games are nothing alike).

Also, I’m not really sure how you can possibly say that Shenmue 3 was punching above its weight, nor in what ways it was innovative. Don’t get me wrong, I certainly enjoyed it, but in a lot of ways, it felt like a bit of a step backward from Shenmue 2. In others, it felt like more of the same.

You may not like it (which, again, I think is kinda ridiculous considering you haven’t actually played it), but most of the people who enjoyed the first game almost certainly will. To say that people deserve to lose their jobs for giving fans exactly what they wanted is all kinds of ridiculous.
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You also have to consider that S3 never had a static budget and was originally planned as a $3M dollar game and didn’t get the infusion of those sweet Epic dollars until well into development.

Regardless they are both low budget games by today’s standards.

YS tried to make a full on open world game on a shoestring budget (punching above weight) and largely succeeded. The game just needed the funds for one more year or so dev time to put in more story cutscenes and Baisha.

Shenmue 3 may not have reached the heights of S2 but it innovated by creating a connected and consequential open world with loads of personality and depth.

Hellblade 2 has been released like a spillage of derivative meh.

Shenmue 4 would have have built upon Shenmue 3 to give us something NEW.
 
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