SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[Thomasina]

realism

Trying to think of the number of times I've consumed an entire bulb of garlic.... Yeah, that's never happened. "Realism" is thrown out the window the moment they decided garlic was the most effective food to consume. Running around and buying garlic just so you can move and play the game is thus absurdly silly, which in turn makes it nothing more than a nuisance that interferes and distracts from enjoying the rest of the game. You can literally go to the games area and watch Ryo's stamina drain just by standing there. It's horrid and it's astonishing some people will defend such a horrible system.

To that, the most complimentary thing I've ever seen anyone say about the food system is "it's not that bad", which essentially means "it sucks but I'll defend it anyways".

And this is the problem. There's a difference between what people want it to be and what it actually is.

People wanted it to be a good game. Nobody wanted S3 to be tedious and lack focus and be nearly devoid of story.

Bailu is constructed in a fairly artificial way. Sure, you would tell me "But hey, it's a town, of course it's artificial !". But Bailu is basically constructed as a video game town as opposed to I and II. Basically, its implementation and its components serves the gameplay which betrays the story setting.

Agree with this. Bailu is designed to restrict the player. It's designed around very old school game logic, with things like invisible walls preventing you from exploring. I thought Bailu was horribly designed and the worst area in any of the 3 games.

 

[LemonHaze]

Trying to think of the number of times I've consumed an entire bulb of garlic.... Yeah, that's never happened. "Realism" is thrown out the window the moment they decided garlic was the most effective food to consume. Running around and buying garlic just so you can move and play the game is thus absurdly silly, which in turn makes it nothing more than a nuisance that interferes and distracts from enjoying the rest of the game.

Do you realise how stupid this sounds? People have been eating raw garlic for years, same as peppers etc. Interesting that you think realism can only be defined by the choices of food you can consume, in a game... set in China...

You can literally go to the games area and watch Ryo's stamina drain just by standing there. It's horrid and it's astonishing some people will defend such a horrible system.

Just thought I'd remind you - you need to eat to survive. It's one of the most important aspects of life, in fact. No food == no energy. Also, another thing I think you have failed to realise is that this sort of thing isn't new to games at all and has been replicated numerous times.

 

[Creward]

Do you realise how stupid this sounds? People have been eating raw garlic for years, same as peppers etc. Interesting that you think realism can only be defined by the choices of food you can consume, in a game... set in China...



Just thought I'd remind you - you need to eat to survive. It's one of the most important aspects of life, in fact. No food == no energy. Also, another thing I think you have failed to realise is that this sort of thing isn't new to games at all and has been replicated numerous times.

He is not really saying you need to eator that there are stamina food systems. He is saying how is implemented in Shenmue 3 is neither realistic (point that I agree on, garlic being the OP food due being the most cost effective and how you actually not eat to have a healthy balanced diet or one to help build muscule buildup which is important for martial artists) nor an engaging/fun gameplay mechanic to him as I understood that he feels it actually restricts his exploration time forcing him to slow down.

 

[Thomasina]

Are you telling me if I went to China that eating entire bulbs of garlic, one after another, is a common practice there? What's even more absurd is that common items like apples and bananas were incorporated into the game, but they have no real benefit to choosing those over garlic. I would love to see you make a case for the food system tho, I'm sure it would be highly amusing.

and has been replicated numerous times.

Yeah, that's been one of my primary complaints is that to implement such a shitty, half-baked mechanic into a game that doesn't need it, or benefit from it in any way, after the survival/crafting games explosion a few years ago reaks of a lack of understanding of what lessons have been learned from other food systems. It's a system/mechanic that rarely adds anything good to a game.

It's alarming that after an 18 year hiatus, Suzuki thought that what was needed most in the Shenmue series was eating garlic rather than telling the story of Shenmue. Garlic took priority over the story. This is one of the things that regularly brings me back to reality when my hopes for the future of the series gets a little out of touch.

 

[Nathanial Essex]

Is the Shenmue story actually finished? Something tells me a lot of Shenmue III was done on the fly. If Shenmue III was made way back when, I find it hard to see it following the same path.

 

[hmjohnny]

Without responding directly to anyone I want to address the backlash that seems to always come from this forum whenever there is criticisms of the games (especially Shenmue 3, but also the series in general).

Criticism is often good, it ensures things improve. Shenmue had criticism when it came out and it was addressed and Shenmue 2 was the better game for it. Most of us are older now, we grew up playing the originals when we were kids or teenagers. I don't think it's a stretch to say that our sensibilities may also have changed. Clunky dialogue may have been easy to overlook 20 years ago but it isn't anymore. It's not a part of the games charm, it's a failure of the game to meet basic standards in today's age. Expecting more from Shenmue should be the basics going forward.

We know that Shenmue has become a gaming pariah. It has become a meme, a running joke that Youtubers and critics make fun of for views. But I also think that we are giving these guys too much credit. The vast majority of people don't care about Shenmue one way or another. Prior to S3's KS few people even heard of it. These guys making fun of the games are doing so because it's easy for them to do. But let's be honest, if Shenmue didn't give them the ammunition they wouldn't be able to shoot either.

And yes, I do agree that Shenmue has had a lot of bad faith takes in the past, and I have a personal issue with that, but not all criticisms are coming from that angle. I've been playing Mafia 3 recently and that game has some similar criticisms to S3. It's called repetitive, unoriginal, grindy etc. Honestly, with my experience with it so far it deserves those criticisms. These are not things which are unique to Shenmue. It's not a a terrible game. Like S3, it has some redeeming qualities. Shenmue is not being beat up because of some conspiracy of everyone out there to get it.

I don't think takes like SEPW are in bad faith. He had a previous video on Shenmue that praised the games. But when any reaction to negativity is met with apologetics it becomes easy to paint a target on the fanbase as well as the games.

And yet there seems to be this reaction that if people criticize the series then it will impact its chance to continue. I would say this, it is no longer up to us to ensure that Shenmue is successful. If people are not liking the game, if people are criticizing it (in good faith), then it is up to the game to succeed. If Shenmue isn't good, it deserves to fail on those merits. We can no longer defend the game's flaws against the consensus if we want to be taken seriously. Doing so, ironically perhaps, actually hinders the series success going forward.

And if by some chance S4 comes out and it is received as a bad game, we have to let Shenmue die. It's up to Suzuki, the creator, to make a good game, a game that can be successful enough to continue. It's not up to the fans to ensure Shenmue continues outside of buying a copy of the game.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, everyone who is posting on this forum wants Shenmue to be good. Let's not conflate legitimate criticism with trolling. We, and Shenmue, will be better for it.

 

[LemonHaze]

Are you telling me if I went to China that eating entire bulbs of garlic, one after another, is a common practice there?

Apparently it's a tradition over 4000 years old, and some people in China still practice eating 3-4 every morning.

It's alarming that after an 18 year hiatus, Suzuki thought that what was needed most in the Shenmue series was eating garlic rather than telling the story of Shenmue. Garlic took priority over the story. This is one of the things that regularly brings me back to reality when my hopes for the future of the series gets a little out of touch.

You can't really make claims about 'garlic taking priority over the story' - because you don't know that and again, you don't know what the whole story is, anyway.

 

[Thomasina]

You can't really make claims about 'garlic taking priority over the story' - because you don't know that and again, you don't know what the whole story is, anyway.

Yes I can. I can see that a food system is present in the game, hinders the player from start to finish, and the story is abysmal. It looks to me like resources weren't funneled to where they were needed the most.

Apparently it's a tradition over 4000 years old, and some people in China still practice eating 3-4 every morning.

I mean, do you want to provide a link or am I supposed to just take your word for it? I'm not convinced by your claim of "apparently".
Eat 3-4 what? Cloves or bulbs??
Ryo's not Chinese and no one in the game explains to him the "benefits of eating full bulbs of garlic".


I think it's pretty safe to say the vast majority of people would say the food system is objectively bad and offers nothing of value. Is this really the hill you're going to die on in the name of defending Shenmue's honor? You don't have to defend everything.

 

[LemonHaze]

Yes I can. I can see that a food system is present in the game, hinders the player from start to finish, and the story is abysmal. It looks to me like resources weren't funneled to where they were needed the most.

Hinders the player? Come now, stop being so dramatic lmfao.

I mean, do you want to provide a link or am I supposed to just take your word for it? I'm not convinced by your claim of "apparently".
Eat 3-4 what? Cloves or bulbs??

To be honest, no, I think you should probably do some research yourself, buddy. Check Wikipedia for that tasty stat of "China produces some 80% of the world's supply of garlic". I don't owe you anything.

Ryo's not Chinese and no one in the game explains to him the "benefits of eating full bulbs of garlic".

Right, sorry I didn't realise that simply eating garlic was exclusive to Chinese families. /s

It's funny you mention it like that, though.. because the game is set in China, and garlic use is pretty extensive in that country.

I think it's pretty safe to say the vast majority of people would say the food system is objectively bad and offers nothing of value. Is this really the hill you're going to die on in the name of defending Shenmue's honor? You don't have to defend everything.

Again, you're being very overly dramatic here. I simply say that garlic has been used traditionally.. and this is the response I'm given?

You don't have to defend everything.

.

 

[Thomasina]

Criticism is often good, it ensures things improve. Shenmue had criticism when it came out and it was addressed and Shenmue 2 was the better game for it.

One of my fears, per se, is that the only people Yu Suzuki hears from are the most diehard fanboys of the community. The ones who tell him that Shenmue 3 is perfect and it's what they've always expected after all this time, who are afraid to criticize things like the food system and the token system. If Ys Net only hears these people, then Shenmue is dead.

If Shenmue 4 actually is coming, then my guess is that Ys Net, or somebody, worked out a deal for at least 2 games to be published. I doubt S3 sold well enough to make Deep Silver excited to push forward on S4 on their own.

This video review that this topic is about, it's a great review. He talks about what he likes, but also what he doesn't like. It's not a troll review, or a conspiracy to attack this small community. It's a legit review. Development teams need to hear what makes their games great, and what hinders player's experiences. It's sad to see the diehards try to push out other fans because they didn't like S3. "Walk away" or "Shenmue isn't for you". Yes, yes it is me. And no, I won't walk away. There are standards in the industry and people who play games likely play other games and recognize the standards. If a game doesn't meet certain standards, people will see it. And if a developer wants to make a good game, they're goal will be to meet certain standards. Having standards doesn't turn every game into Assassin's Creed. A game can be unique but also meet industry standards.

 

[hmjohnny]

One of my fears, per se, is that the only people Yu Suzuki hears from are the most diehard fanboys of the community. The ones who tell him that Shenmue 3 is perfect and it's what they've always expected after all this time, who are afraid to criticize things like the food system and the token system. If Ys Net only hears these people, then Shenmue is dead.

If Shenmue 4 actually is coming, then my guess is that Ys Net, or somebody, worked out a deal for at least 2 games to be published. I doubt S3 sold well enough to make Deep Silver excited to push forward on S4 on their own.

This video review that this topic is about, it's a great review. He talks about what he likes, but also what he doesn't like. It's not a troll review, or a conspiracy to attack this small community. It's a legit review. Development teams need to hear what makes their games great, and what hinders player's experiences. It's sad to see the diehards try to push out other fans because they didn't like S3. "Walk away" or "Shenmue isn't for you". Yes, yes it is me. And no, I won't walk away. There are standards in the industry and people who play games likely play other games and recognize the standards. If a game doesn't meet certain standards, people will see it. And if a developer wants to make a good game, they're goal will be to meet certain standards. Having standards doesn't turn every game into Assassin's Creed. A game can be unique but also meet industry standards.

Very well said. My sentiments exactly.

I also have the fear that Suzuki may be listening to the diehards (we got forklifts in S3 after all) but I also worry that he just may be out of touch, or that his priorities aren't really to tell this story but to use Shenmue as his canvas for new (and untested) ideas. I want to give Shenmue another chance and believe that a lot of the issues with S3 are just due to budget/circumstance and the ones that aren't can be remedied. We'll have to wait for the sequel to know for sure.

But yeah, if legitimate criticism is ignored it won't be a good game and it won't do well.

EDIT: updated suppressed to ignored

 

[LemonHaze]

One of my fears, per se, is that the only people Yu Suzuki hears from are the most diehard fanboys of the community.

Of course, because Yu Suzuki himself has a hotline straight to the 'diehard fanboys'........

 

[LemonHaze]

But yeah, if legitimate criticism is suppressed it won't be a good game and it won't do well.

Where is the suppresion?!

Sounds like a conspiracy!!111111

 

[spud1897]

Without responding directly to anyone I want to address the backlash that seems to always come from this forum whenever there is criticisms of the games (especially Shenmue 3, but also the series in general).

Criticism is often good, it ensures things improve. Shenmue had criticism when it came out and it was addressed and Shenmue 2 was the better game for it. Most of us are older now, we grew up playing the originals when we were kids or teenagers. I don't think it's a stretch to say that our sensibilities may also have changed. Clunky dialogue may have been easy to overlook 20 years ago but it isn't anymore. It's not a part of the games charm, it's a failure of the game to meet basic standards in today's age. Expecting more from Shenmue should be the basics going forward.

We know that Shenmue has become a gaming pariah. It has become a meme, a running joke that Youtubers and critics make fun of for views. But I also think that we are giving these guys too much credit. The vast majority of people don't care about Shenmue one way or another. Prior to S3's KS few people even heard of it. These guys making fun of the games are doing so because it's easy for them to do. But let's be honest, if Shenmue didn't give them the ammunition they wouldn't be able to shoot either.

And yes, I do agree that Shenmue has had a lot of bad faith takes in the past, and I have a personal issue with that, but not all criticisms are coming from that angle. I've been playing Mafia 3 recently and that game has some similar criticisms to S3. It's called repetitive, unoriginal, grindy etc. Honestly, with my experience with it so far it deserves those criticisms. These are not things which are unique to Shenmue. It's not a a terrible game. Like S3, it has some redeeming qualities. Shenmue is not being beat up because of some conspiracy of everyone out there to get it.

I don't think takes like SEPW are in bad faith. He had a previous video on Shenmue that praised the games. But when any reaction to negativity is met with apologetics it becomes easy to paint a target on the fanbase as well as the games.

And yet there seems to be this reaction that if people criticize the series then it will impact its chance to continue. I would say this, it is no longer up to us to ensure that Shenmue is successful. If people are not liking the game, if people are criticizing it (in good faith), then it is up to the game to succeed. If Shenmue isn't good, it deserves to fail on those merits. We can no longer defend the game's flaws against the consensus if we want to be taken seriously. Doing so, ironically perhaps, actually hinders the series success going forward.

And if by some chance S4 comes out and it is received as a bad game, we have to let Shenmue die. It's up to Suzuki, the creator, to make a good game, a game that can be successful enough to continue. It's not up to the fans to ensure Shenmue continues outside of buying a copy of the game.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, everyone who is posting on this forum wants Shenmue to be good. Let's not conflate legitimate criticism with trolling. We, and Shenmue, will be better for it.

Right I'm saying this partly as a direct response but as a whole as well.

Not one time has anyone on this forum tried to stop constructive criticisms, the topics that have been open and the positions the moderators take shows this. I'm fed up of repeating myself on this.

However what is quickly becoming apparent is that theres a stance that when someone challenges an opinion, yes an opinion, people become obstinate and try to pass theirs off as gospel. Well heres some news, neither mine, yours or anyone else's is gospel. There is no silencing conspiracy, only the one some seem to have made up in their heads.

It's simple on both sides of any discussion, show some respect towards each other, discuss in good faith and if you don't like someones counter to your post, fine, not a problem. But don't start passing things off as a reaction or overt agenda. People are free to respond how they like, within reason, and challenge a view be it positive, negative or anywhere in between. If that can't be done in a civil manner (looking at some posting styles on both sides here) then the moderators will be coming down on it.

Shenmue 4 is reliant on the fans to keep the message alive, read the message at the end of Shenmue III. It couldn't be much clearer if I wrote it in size 72 text. As long as people want it then Yu Suzuki will fight for it, as should we. He should make whatever the hell he wants, we can constructively criticise as much as we like, they will likely see it but it is not our right to dictate to anyone how to make their game.

So let me make this very simple for everyone. Constructively criticise and discuss and expect challenge/questions. Don't get shitty because someone doesn't agree. Agree to disagree and move on. Flooding the boards with the same stuff because your message is the only one you will listen to (positive or negative) only serves to wind people up more.

For the record @hmjohnny while I don't always agree with your posts, they're normally well thought out. That's the sort of stuff that promotes good discussion.

 

[Dietsoap]

"China produces some 80% of the world's supply of garlic".

Holy shit.

 

[Vasid]

Is the Shenmue story actually finished? Something tells me a lot of Shenmue III was done on the fly. If Shenmue III was made way back when, I find it hard to see it following the same path.

God I would give anything to see a Shenmue III for Dreamcast made in like 2001 from a successful Sega.

 

[Thomasina]

Spud, these accusations are *NOT being levied at you. There is routinely an attempt to stifle criticism in the form of saying things like "we've heard this a thousand times" or "why are you still talking about a game you don't like". Saying things like this are a dismissal of criticisms and another way of saying "shut up and go away".

Lemon Haze, when someone makes a claim, is challenged on that claim, and the response back is "I don't owe you anything", it's quite apparent what the intent is. Not really sure what else to say to you. To me it's clear you'll defend everything and anything, and what you gain from that, I really don't know.

Of course, because Yu Suzuki himself has a hotline straight to the 'diehard fanboys'........

It's said on here quite frequently that Suzuki made Shenmue 3 "for the fans" or that he "made what he thought fans wanted". Did he read people's minds, did he make a bunch of assumptions, or did he talk to fans over the years?

Hinders the player? Come now, stop being so dramatic lmfao.

Yes. If I'm taking my earned money, that I need to progress the story, and spending it on garlic so I can train and move within the game world, then it's hindering progression. It also prevents players from doing fun things like games and gambling. There's always the need to manage money for food, rather than having fun.

 

[spud1897]

Spud, these accusations are *NOT being levied at you. There is routinely an attempt to stifle criticism in the form of saying things like "we've heard this a thousand times" or "why are you still talking about a game you don't like". Saying things like this are a dismissal of criticisms and another way of saying "shut up and go away".

Lemon Haze, when someone makes a claim, is challenged on that claim, and the response back is "I don't owe you anything", it's quite apparent what the intent is. Not really sure what else to say to you. To me it's clear you'll defend everything and anything, and what you gain from that, I really don't know.



It's said on here quite frequently that Suzuki made Shenmue 3 "for the fans" or that he "made what he thought fans wanted". Did he read people's minds, did he make a bunch of assumptions, or did he talk to fans over the years?


Yes. If I'm taking my earned money, that I need to progress the story, and spending it on garlic so I can train and move within the game world, then it's hindering progression. It also prevents players from doing fun things like games and gambling. There's always the need to manage money for food, rather than having fun.

Users on both sides have a right to point out if something, like a video, makes points that have been discussed before. That's not shutting down a discussion, that's just saying it's been had before and they're free to engage or not based upon that assessment.

Given that is now a 16 page thread I'd suggest that it's safe to say most people have gone back into those same discussion lines, which is fine as long as it's constructive.

And while not personally aimed at me I've a responsibility, as a co-owner of this site, to make sure it's crystal clear where we stand on this.

So once again, discuss, criticise and enjoy. Discussions are always allowed to flow as needed here.

Enough said, get this back on topic please.

 

[hmjohnny]

Where is the suppresion?!

Sounds like a conspiracy!!111111

lol. You're right, there is no active suppression. I'll change it to ignored.

 

[9dragons]

Maybe my point of view is a bit harsh, but as an avid critic of your generic modern day open world story driven game I do not get the hate S3 gets. The buzz words boring, repetitive and gindy are standard tropes for me every open worlds had. The critical acclaimed games called Horizon Zero Dawn, Death Stranding and Red Dead Redemption 2 are full of this features. It felt so boring that I walked away and ever finished those games.

What do this games make better than Shenmue? Maybe it is the graphics that the people are more leniant towards them. Or the Sony, Kojima and Rockstar Fanbonus.

I am realistic here and I fully aware that the setting is one of the most important factor if enjoy a game or not. The setting is the most important factor that makes these games successful or not. Not the gameplay. Gameplay wise these games play all the same.

Shenmue 3 felt much more unique gameplay wise than your average open world game, but it is still seen as not that innovative.

But what makes a open world game new and fresh in the first place.

Every game does the Same. Sandbox World, Main Quests, Side Quests, some story driven cut scenes, combat segments, collecting meaningless stuff, interact with NPCS. and so forth.


Nothing new on the Horizon in that genre.

So I really wonder why S3 is seen in that overly critical light.

I am not going to say that game is perfect. it is not. And we should discuss the negative points too.

I just find it funny how the critic is delivered. S3 is shunned for doing some things other games get away with it.

Never read that anybody said, Horizon Zero Dawn is repetitive boring game. But that's what the game is. Of course you can overlook the blandness when you like Aloy and the setting a lot. I can understand that. I feel the same towards Ghost of Tsushima.

But you in order to completely fair S3 should be given the same benefit of the doubt.

The negative things should not be overblown.