SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[LemonHaze]

Lemon Haze, when someone makes a claim, is challenged on that claim, and the response back is "I don't owe you anything", it's quite apparent what the intent is. Not really sure what else to say to you. To me it's clear you'll defend everything and anything, and what you gain from that, I really don't know.

Dude wtf. What intention is there? I seen something you said and decided to give you some context on garlic.. you asked me to provide citations and references and I don't feel like doing that. What exactly is the issue around that? There is literally tons and tons of documentation regarding this stuff and I implore you to do your own research as it was you afterall who found it so bizarre that some cultures do eat raw garlic.

It's amazing to read just how much you are reading into my messages as some sort of 'blind defense of Shenmue III' - which is entirely untrue, as I said, I seen your post and decided to give you some context.. why must there be some sinister reason behind it?

But of course, you most likely know me more than I know myself, and you're the almighty one.

It's said on here quite frequently that Suzuki made Shenmue 3 "for the fans" or that he "made what he thought fans wanted". Did he read people's minds, did he make a bunch of assumptions, or did he talk to fans over the years?

I can't answer to that really, because I don't know either what he "means", but usually when people say things like this I don't think people automatically assume that said creator is quite literally communicating with the fanbase. I could be wrong, but I've never spoken to Yu Suzuki, I'd like to.. hell, I'd like him to hire me so I can hopefully make a positive change in the series, but if I'm perfectly honest, the toxicity of this community is a massive deterrent.

Yes. If I'm taking my earned money, that I need to progress the story, and spending it on garlic so I can train and move within the game world, then it's hindering progression. It also prevents players from doing fun things like games and gambling. There's always the need to manage money for food, rather than having fun.

Well, all I can say to that is, the guy who made the 'No Stamina' mod, that I never actually felt like it hindered my experience, at least not to the extent that you're saying. Even friends who've played the game have mentioned to me that they almost never ran out of stamina, so I don't know really. All I can speak of is my own experience, afterall hence why I found your first post regarding this seemingly overly dramatic.

 

[hmjohnny]

Right I'm saying this partly as a direct response but as a whole as well.

Not one time has anyone on this forum tried to stop constructive criticisms, the topics that have been open and the positions the moderators take shows this. I'm fed up of repeating myself on this.

However what is quickly becoming apparent is that theres a stance that when someone challenges an opinion, yes an opinion, people become obstinate and try to pass theirs off as gospel. Well heres some news, neither mine, yours or anyone else's is gospel. There is no silencing conspiracy, only the one some seem to have made up in their heads.

It's simple on both sides of any discussion, show some respect towards each other, discuss in good faith and if you don't like someones counter to your post, fine, not a problem. But don't start passing things off as a reaction or overt agenda. People are free to respond how they like, within reason, and challenge a view be it positive, negative or anywhere in between. If that can't be done in a civil manner (looking at some posting styles on both sides here) then the moderators will be coming down on it.

Shenmue 4 is reliant on the fans to keep the message alive, read the message at the end of Shenmue III. It couldn't be much clearer if I wrote it in size 72 text. As long as people want it then Yu Suzuki will fight for it, as should we. He should make whatever the hell he wants, we can constructively criticise as much as we like, they will likely see it but it is not our right to dictate to anyone how to make their game.

So let me make this very simple for everyone. Constructively criticise and discuss and expect challenge/questions. Don't get shitty because someone doesn't agree. Agree to disagree and move on. Flooding the boards with the same stuff because your message (positive or negative) only serves to wind people up more.

For the record @hmjohnny while I don't always agree with your posts, they're normally well thought out. That's the sort of stuff that promotes good discussion.

Good post. I just want to be clear that I am in no way saying the mods are suppressing criticism or disallowing it from happening. If it wasn't clear from my post my message is that we shouldn't be dismissive of good faith criticism and we shouldn't take all criticism, like the video of this thread's topic, as a personal attack or as a hindrance to the series.

 

[iknifaugood]

I also have the fear that Suzuki may be listening to the diehards (we got forklifts in S3 after all) but I also worry that he just may be out of touch, or that his priorities aren't really to tell this story but to use Shenmue as his canvas for new (and untested) ideas.

This is the exact conclusion SEPW comes to when he decides he's out and it's a completely valid opinion to have. I really think it gets lost sometimes that we got to play Shenmue 3, a game that seemed impossible for so long, and the main takeaway seems to be "wait until S4". I can totally understand fans who hated S3 saying "no" to that. Suzuki is not owed tens of millions of dollars.

Suzuki seems reasonably confident in his ability to get S4 made, I'm on board for it but if I feel about S4 the way I feel about S3, I'm out. Everyone has a line; many people here have expressed that if S4 is too story focused then they'll be out because that isn't their idea of Shenmue, so I don't understand all the flack this review is getting.

Maybe my point of view is a bit harsh, but as an avid critic of your generic modern day open world story driven game I do not get the hate S3 gets. The buzz words boring, repetitive and gindy are standard tropes for me every open worlds had. The critical acclaimed games called Horizon Zero Dawn, Death Stranding and Red Dead Redemption 2 are full of this features. It felt so boring that I walked away and ever finished those games.

What do this games make better than Shenmue? Maybe it is the graphics that the people are more leniant towards them. Or the Sony, Kojima and Rockstar Fanbonus.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Horizon and RDR are much faster paced and have greater player agency, both of which add to mass appeal, and Death Stranding was heavily criticized and didn't sell nearly as well as the Metal Gear entries (which are faster paced and allow for greater player agency).

People like games that fulfill a fantasy, RDR2 can be as "boring" as it wants because most of the boring stuff is optional and, at the end of the day, it is the cowboy simulator--it nails the important stuff. Open world games succeed when they draw you into a world and give you choices to make and several ways to tackle varied objectives. Shenmue 3 lacks these options, instead opting for the archaic method of railroading the player and gating its meager progression behind grinding and isn't focused enough on the "fantasy" it's fulfilling. It really shouldn't be that hard to make "epic martial arts movie the game" exciting to a wide audience but here we are.

 

[Sonoshee]

People wanted it to be a good game. Nobody wanted S3 to be tedious and lack focus and be nearly devoid of story.

This old chestnut.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Maybe my point of view is a bit harsh, but as an avid critic of your generic modern day open world story driven game I do not get the hate S3 gets. The buzz words boring, repetitive and gindy are standard tropes for me every open worlds had. The critical acclaimed games called Horizon Zero Dawn, Death Stranding and Red Dead Redemption 2 are full of this features. It felt so boring that I walked away and ever finished those games.

What do this games make better than Shenmue? Maybe it is the graphics that the people are more leniant towards them. Or the Sony, Kojima and Rockstar Fanbonus.

I am realistic here and I fully aware that the setting is one of the most important factor if enjoy a game or not. The setting is the most important factor that makes these games successful or not. Not the gameplay. Gameplay wise these games play all the same.

Shenmue 3 felt much more unique gameplay wise than your average open world game, but it is still seen as not that innovative.

But what makes a open world game new and fresh in the first place.

Every game does the Same. Sandbox World, Main Quests, Side Quests, some story driven cut scenes, combat segments, collecting meaningless stuff, interact with NPCS. and so forth.


Nothing new on the Horizon in that genre.

So I really wonder why S3 is seen in that overly critical light.

I am not going to say that game is perfect. it is not. And we should discuss the negative points too.

I just find it funny how the critic is delivered. S3 is shunned for doing some things other games get away with it.

Never read that anybody said, Horizon Zero Dawn is repetitive boring game. But that's what the game is. Of course you can overlook the blandness when you like Aloy and the setting a lot. I can understand that. I feel the same towards Ghost of Tsushima.

But you in order to completely fair S3 should be given the same benefit of the doubt.

The negative things should not be overblown.

I didn’t like RDR2 at all, but it still has world class storytelling, acting and writing for a video game. Shenmue 3 has iffy mechanics, dreadful acting, and a poorly written story that could be written on the back of a napkin. There’s no mystery or suspense in Shenmue 3. You mostly just go through the motions til you fulfill some simplistic goals and the game ends. That’s the difference.

But I also just love the feel of Shenmue, the atmosphere, music, and other intangibles that make me softer on Shenmue 3 than I’d be on another series. I think it’s pretty easy to see why most will take a game like RDR2 over Shenmue 3.

 

[9dragons]

As I said my opinion is a bit weird as non main stream gamer.The reason is why I hate open world game is that they throw you into world without any deeper meaning. Deep Story telling is not possible that way. Too many random stuff to do without any deeper meaning.

Story Telling and open world games are meh. The only exception is Shenmue. Even S3. in that games the world is used for the story telling so it is easier to tell the Story.

But that is just my opinion. From a modern point of view the S3 approach is not good.

But S3 is not supposed to be a modern game.

 

[Down by Law]

It really shouldn't be that hard to make "epic martial arts movie the game" exciting to a wide audience but here we are.

You'd think so, but Martial Arts in terms of the entertainment medium, haven't been in vogue for a long time. That's why all the 80's action heroes we grew up with go straight to video (or netflix) and torch bearers like Scott Adkins are stuck in video on demand hell, despite him being an absolute incredible martial artist.

People lost interest in what the physical body can achieve as soon as computers made anything possible. That's why people flock to comic book movies, the fantastic bought to life.

When I was a kid watching Van Damme's Kickboxer, I couldn't believe a human body could do this :

That's still crazy impressive to me ! I doubt many people nowadays think much of it !

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I got very little story from Shenmue 3. There are folks here who will argue the tough guys keeping Bailu under siege is fantastic storytelling that is exactly the same as the stories I enjoyed in Shenmue 1 & 2, but I am sorry to say Shenmue 3’s storytelling didn’t engage me. Maybe the writing lacked life? Perhaps the robotic acting took me out of things? Hard to say, but if you compiled all the cutscenes in Shenmue 3 a la Shenmue the Movie,I can’t imagine youd find much of interest.

Unfortunately, didn’t just wake up from a cryogenic slumber and make Shenmue 3 my first game in 20 years, so it’s hard not to compare it to other games with superior storytelling. There are side stories in the Yakuza or RDR series that contain more action and intrigue than the entirety of Shenmue 3.

 

[Creward]

Story Telling and open world games are meh. The only exception is Shenmue. Even S3. in that games the world is used for the story telling so it is easier to tell the Story.

Yes, open world and storytelling is hard and needs several means to work well. Wicher 3 did it quite well too and I personally would not consider Shenmue an open world game as to me feels more similar to old classic sierra point and click adventures than the modern concept of open world.

 

[Thomasina]

As I said my opinion is a bit weird as non main stream gamer.The reason is why I hate open world game is that they throw you into world without any deeper meaning. Deep Story telling is not possible that way. Too many random stuff to do without any deeper meaning.

Story Telling and open world games are meh. The only exception is Shenmue. Even S3. in that games the world is used for the story telling so it is easier to tell the Story.

But that is just my opinion. From a modern point of view the S3 approach is not good.

But S3 is not supposed to be a modern game.

I personally would never compare Shenmue 3 to games like RDR, Horizon, Spiderman, or really any other open world game. Shenmue is more like open level. The things you're doing in actual open world games are much more diverse and dynamic. Seems like an odd comparison to me.

There are side stories in the Yakuza or RDR series that contain more action and intrigue than the entirety of Shenmue 3.

I was looking at a Shenmue 1 topic the other day and someone posted a video about the old homeless man in the harbor. I think characters like him in both S1 and S2 have more backstory and attention to detail than the entirety of S3. You don't even have to look outside the series to find superior story telling. It's right there in the previous 2 games, which makes it hurt even more to see S3 fall so short in this aspect.

dreadful acting

In all fairness to Corey Marshal, I think his acting is fine. A lot of modern games have actors and acctresses acting out scenes as a team, and Shenmue is still just reading lines in a booth. I understand the budget is limited, but it's the way the game functions that is the cause of the poor acting, and not the actors themselves. Sucks Corey has taken so much flack over the years.

 

[Suzaku]

As I said my opinion is a bit weird as non main stream gamer.The reason is why I hate open world game is that they throw you into world without any deeper meaning. Deep Story telling is not possible that way. Too many random stuff to do without any deeper meaning.

Story Telling and open world games are meh. The only exception is Shenmue. Even S3. in that games the world is used for the story telling so it is easier to tell the Story.

But that is just my opinion. From a modern point of view the S3 approach is not good.

But S3 is not supposed to be a modern game.

Agree.

Shenmue is still a unique game in a world where everything is standardized, especially when we consider the open world genre that is probably the genre with the most standardized clichè (to the point that even the almighty Nintendo bowed to the Ubisoft formula).

Like you said, the most criticized things are issue that you can find in many other games.
Grinding for example is present in majority of modern games in every possible form, why it's a good thing for other games but a critical issue only for shenmue 3?

 

[Down by Law]

I think we can all agree that Shenmue 3 does fall short in the storytelling department, but that doesn't make it a bad game overall. The music alone elevates it to good status and if the gameplay loop sits with you, then it's just additional gravy. If i could sit with Yu Suzuki lets say, sometime in 2016 and he asked if he should put his attention to gameplay or story.. even knowing what I do now, i'd still pick gameplay every time. Shenmue offers a gameplay loop I just can't get anywhere else. I love games, but I rarely feel like i inhabit the character like I do Ryo Hazuki. The 'real day' is still unique to the series, I get up, put on my shoes (just once, supereyepatchwolf) and the day is mine to do as I see fit. Often in open world games, you hit a story checkpoint, and the camera pans up, the day turns to night as that's when the encounter is scripted to take place, and there's no real consistency in time. You don't need to sleep, you never get fatigued no matter how much you get hurt or how far you travel, and that's totally fine. I just won't get that connection with the character that Shenmue does so well.

Deadly Premonition (and it's sequel) looks like crap, plays like crap, but is held in high regard due to it's story. That fair enough, but a game should be a game, first and foremost IMO. I finished Deadly Premonition back in the day, and yes, the story was wonderful, but I can't stomach the thought of playing it again. I played Shenmue 3 and as soon as the credits rolled I was back at it. Then after the credits rolled the second time, I was back at it again to grab the last couple of trophies. Finally, despite what your thoughts are on the game, it left enough of an impression to come to the dojo and discuss it - and the games been out 8 months. The worst thing that can happen to a game is it just gets forgotten. The fact there's still so much discussion here is a good thing.

 

[Thomasina]

You'd think so, but Martial Arts in terms of the entertainment medium, haven't been in vogue for a long time. That's why all the 80's action heroes we grew up with go straight to video (or netflix) and torch bearers like Scott Adkins are stuck in video on demand hell, despite him being an absolute incredible martial artist.

People lost interest in what the physical body can achieve as soon as computers made anything possible. That's why people flock to comic book movies, the fantastic bought to life.

When I was a kid watching Van Damme's Kickboxer, I couldn't believe a human body could do this :

That's still crazy impressive to me ! I doubt many people nowadays think much of it !

Kind of off track here but there's still lots of popular martial arts movies. I think one thing, at least for me, that's dwindled interest in them is the existence of MMA. Kungfu movies are absurd when you watch MMA. Blocking a dozen punches in a row is just unrealistic as could be.

I did watch Kung Fu Hustle a couple months ago for the first time, and holy crap was that ever a great movie.

Grinding for example is present in majority of modern games in every possible form, why it's a good thing for other games but a critical issue only for shenmue 3?

Guess it depends on what you consider to be "grinding". Doing missions that have structure isn't grinding to me. Doing the same job over and over again with no benefit or reward in S3 definitely felt like grinding to me.

Chopping wood didn't change at all. I didn't understand why it didn't improve stamina or strength or anything. And one punch was the same thing all the way to master level.

 

[Dietsoap]

As I said my opinion is a bit weird as non main stream gamer.The reason is why I hate open world game is that they throw you into world without any deeper meaning. Deep Story telling is not possible that way. Too many random stuff to do without any deeper meaning.

Story Telling and open world games are meh. The only exception is Shenmue. Even S3. in that games the world is used for the story telling so it is easier to tell the Story.

But that is just my opinion. From a modern point of view the S3 approach is not good.

But S3 is not supposed to be a modern game.

FWIW I'm with you. At least off the top of my head, I can't think of any open-world games I like aside from the Shenmue games. 3 certainly felt light on the story/character side of things imo, but I just loved being in that world.

 

[iknifaugood]

You'd think so, but Martial Arts in terms of the entertainment medium, haven't been in vogue for a long time. That's why all the 80's action heroes we grew up with go straight to video (or netflix) and torch bearers like Scott Adkins are stuck in video on demand hell, despite him being an absolute incredible martial artist.

!!!

People lost interest in what the physical body can achieve as soon as computers made anything possible. That's why people flock to comic book movies, the fantastic bought to life.

Yeah but cowboy movies have gone out of fashion as well and that didn't stop RDR2. It's true that games that focus on martial arts/asian settings don't seem to sell very well (RIP Sleeping Dogs).

Grinding for example is present in majority of modern games in every possible form, why it's a good thing for other games but a critical issue only for shenmue 3?

They hide it better and there's less of it. Play Spider-Man PS4 or even FarCry 5 and tell me that "grinding" the skill trees in those games is even close to the tedium/time investment that S3 requires to get all the moves and max level. Most modern games have XP systems that progress naturally as you play the game, rarely requiring you to "grind" anything.

 

[Down by Law]

Yeah but cowboy movies have gone out of fashion as well and that didn't stop RDR2. It's true that games that focus on martial arts/asian settings don't seem to sell very well (RIP Sleeping Dogs).

A good Western will still make bank - even the recent remake of The Magnificent Seven (2016) made 162 million dollars and with Rockstar's practically unlimited budget following GTA V and their development power, they could make a game about mowing lawns or cleaning caravans look incredible. That said, the game bored me senseless - I hated how rough it controlled. There was a lot to admire about RDR2, but it just wasn't a fun game to me.

Sleeping Dogs was great fun. A real pity there was no follow up.

 

[hmjohnny]

They hide it better and there's less of it. Play Spider-Man PS4 or even FarCry 5 and tell me that "grinding" the skill trees in those games is even close to the tedium/time investment that S3 requires to get all the moves and max level. Most modern games have XP systems that progress naturally as you play the game, rarely requiring you to "grind" anything.

I also want to add that other games often are criticized for their grinding. I think we need to remember that grinding optionally to get more out of the game is not looked down upon i.e. getting to max level in an RPG. When the game forces you to halt main progress to repeat activities seemingly arbitrarily to progress as a core of its game design it is often looked down upon. This is because it is rightly seen as padding.

 

[Thomasina]

I think we need to remember that grinding optionally to get more out of the game is not looked down upon i.e. getting to max level in an RPG.

That's key. There's a big difference between optional versus mandatory grinding.

 

[Rydeen]

I just want to make it abundantly clear that save scumming in Shenmue 3 was not the least bit nerfed, compared to Shenmue II. I mean, half the time I don't even need to reload on the highest payout Lucky Hit boards in Bailu and Niaowu. For anyone with serious attention defficiencies, even in Bailu the Flower, Bird, Wind & Moon table has a max bet of 1500 tokens; which means it pays out ~+450 Yuan per win at the 4:1 odds. This means it only takes four wins and a wood-chopping to get to 2000 Yuan . It's also much faster to get to 150 Yuan to start, than it is to get whatever you want to start at for HK$. There's also the fact that the Roll it on Top workers tend to just not be around a lot of the time (particularly in the alley across from the guest house, where you actually want to be spamming it.)

Yakuza or RDR series that contain more action and intrigue than the entirety of Shenmue 3.

Action and "intrigue" (especially alone) do not a good story make. I guess I'm sorry that most people associate those easily consumable concepts with good stories, because it means most movies and video games (and even books to a certain extent now) almost can't tell deeply cerebral, and/or introspective stories. Certainly not without the risk of diluting them by introducing endorphin fodder for mass appeal.

I really want to hear people try to tell me that "War and Peace" is a bad story because "nothing happens." That would make my day, at this point. (For the record, I am not calling Shenmue III's story "War and Peace")

 

[ShenSun]

Its a good discussion on both sides. Just remember to keep the peace and be civil