SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

we shouldn't be dismissive of good faith criticism and we shouldn't take all criticism, like the video of this thread's topic, as a personal attack or as a hindrance to the series.
It seems to me as though you’re allowing your own feelings for the game to cloud your view of this discussion.

If people discuss the flaws and inaccuracies in a video that is put together in an intentionally misleading way and seemingly designed to make the game look as bad as possible they are ‘suppressing criticism’. Making such a video is of course done in ‘good faith’ though.

You accuse some people on these forums of jumping to defend Shenmue 3 from all and every criticism, but it generally feels as though there are four or five people here who will defend pretty much any criticism or critic of the game no matter how disingenuous the criticism.

I’m sure these same people would be the first to tear down a positive video about Shenmue 3, especially if it presented its points in such a duplicitous fashion.
 
I just want to make it abundantly clear that save scumming in Shenmue 3 was not the least bit nerfed, compared to Shenmue II.
In S2 you can literally roll dice one time and make up to 200x your bet; on what planet is lucking out on lucky hit 3 times in a row for 30x your bet comparable to that? The maximum you can win in S3 by simply picking a bet and letting the dice roll (no minigames or any other input required, so save scumming is apples to apples) is 4x your bet and even then, the Flower, Bird, Wind & Moon animation is insufferably slow compared to S2. And after all that is done, you still have to schlep over to the pawn shop to exchange your tokens for real money. No matter which way you slice it, you'll be spending far more time doing this kind of BS in S3 than S2 and you get less of the good stuff (story, set pieces, characters etc.)

This means it only takes four wins and a wood-chopping to get to 2000 Yuan
Unfortunately you also need to eat constantly and buy moves, which require you to use the capsule machines, which require you to endure even more pointless grinding.

It's also much faster to get to 150 Yuan to start, than it is to get whatever you want to start at for HK$.
Whatever amount of money you get from the crate moving tutorial in S2 is more than enough to turn into a small fortune with save scumming. If your goal is to argue that there's as much wrong with S3's money grinding as S2's then I'm afraid you're not going to convince me and the numbers are simply not on your side. Including 20 years.

I guess I'm sorry that most people associate those easily consumable concepts with good stories, because it means most movies and video games (and even books to a certain extent now) almost can't tell deeply cerebral, and/or introspective stories. Certainly not without the risk of diluting them by introducing endorphin fodder for mass appeal.
Shenmue 3 is not deeply cerebral and/or introspective. In order for it to be about a "journey inward" Ryo would actually need to grow as a person, which we know he doesn't because by the end he's trying to do the same thing he wanted to do at the beginning of the game, at best setting S4 up to be the "journey inward". What should have happened in order for S3 to be a "journey inward", is (something along the lines of) Ryo learns about the mirrors and what the CYM want with them, he refuses to see the bigger picture, goes after Lan Di, gets his ass kicked, and then goes on an introspective martial arts training journey inward. So by the end of S3, he no longer simply wants revenge and has a deeper understanding of what he must do. OR he spends all his time in Bailu and Niaowu learning lessons about revenge and regret, maybe even *gasp* meeting new characters or learning about his father, maybe he even meets someone who actually tells him his father did kill Sunming Zhao and that could trigger a conflict within Ryo that makes him question what he's doing.

Point is, in order for S3 to be a "journey inward", Ryo needs to come out the other side of it with a different understanding of himself or his purpose and that quite literally never even comes up in S3 despite him being in a village where everyone recites an ancient poem about how he and the magic girl are destined to meet.
 
Last edited:
If people discuss the flaws and inaccuracies in a video that is put together in an intentionally misleading way and seemingly designed to make the game look as bad as possible
Do you have any examples of this?

I’m sure these same people would be the first to tear down a positive video about Shenmue 3, especially if it presented its points in such a duplicitous fashion.
It's a little hard to point out that positive reviews are being disingenuous since I have no idea what you like. Unless the review is attempting to tell me that needing $7000 + expenses isn't annoying and grinding for money has always been the highlight of the series, but even then, maybe you're like a really weird accountant.
 
Trying to think of the number of times I've consumed an entire bulb of garlic.... Yeah, that's never happened. "Realism" is thrown out the window the moment they decided garlic was the most effective food to consume. Running around and buying garlic just so you can move and play the game is thus absurdly silly, which in turn makes it nothing more than a nuisance that interferes and distracts from enjoying the rest of the game. You can literally go to the games area and watch Ryo's stamina drain just by standing there. It's horrid and it's astonishing some people will defend such a horrible system.
Alright, I’ll bite.

As I clearly said in my original post (the one that you quoted here), the food system in Shenmue 3 is not without its flaws, but ultimately the requirement to eat is one that is, whether you think otherwise or not, realistic.

At no point in the game does Ryo say ‘I’d better eat some garlic or I won’t be worth anything.’. He says ‘I’d better eat something’ and what that something is is entirely up to the player (just as it’s up to a person to decide what they eat irl).

I’ve not counted, but I’d be surprised if there weren’t around 100 different varieties of food to eat throughout Shenmue 3 which is without a doubt more than any other game I’ve played with food/hunger mechanics (although off the top of my head I can’t think of too many games that I’ve played with such mechanics). That the player chooses to eat raw garlic is entirely their decision.

Does the game nudge the player into eating garlic? Well, in as much that it is the most cost effective way of replenishing stamina, yes; but again, this isn’t too out of keeping with reality.

White rice is one of the most consumed food products in China? Why? Because it is cheap, readily available and because a lot of people can’t afford to eat anything else. Just like how some players choose to eat garlic in Shenmue 3, people in real life often choose to eat the cheapest food available to them when money (or lack thereof) is a factor.

I’m curious whether you would have taken less issue with the system if rice balls had instead been the most cost-effective way of replenishing stamina in game or whether you just think the whole idea of eating food in game is unrealistic?

It would have been nice if they’d incorporated the need to eat a more balanced diet or thrown in a few lines of Ryo complaining about repeatedly eating the same food (‘I’m not sure my stomach can handle much more garlic’), but implementing this kind of thing would have meant keeping track of every food item eaten, assigning various different nutritional values to the 100 or so food items in the game (beyond just stamina gain), recording lines of additional dialogue and ultimately, it would probably have made the whole thing more of a chore to the player (I’d have quite liked it, but I imagine the people complaining about having to eat garlic regularly would have had a field day if they’d been made to actually eat a balanced diet).

As for seeing stamina drain, you realize that even when sitting around, your body is constantly burning energy, right? One day in Shenmue is what? One hour in real time? So standing around for five minutes in is the equivalent of standing around for a few hours in game time. I’m not sure how long one needs to stand around before the stamina drain has a significant impact on your overall stamina (ie, enough stamina has been lost that you really need to eat something) , but I certainly didn’t feel as though I needed to eat an excessive amount of food on any of my playthroughs (if anything, I don’t think Ryo was anywhere near the 2,000 or so calories required for a man of his age).
 
That the player chooses to eat raw garlic is entirely their decision.
No, they "choose" to eat garlic because it is the cheapest food item with the most health increase. I'm guessing here because it's been a while since I played, but a bulb of garlic is I think 300 points, where something like an apple is, I think around 60 points? It simply doesn't make sense.

I’m curious whether you would have taken less issue with the system if rice balls had instead been the most cost-effective way of replenishing stamina in game or whether you just think the whole idea of eating food in game is unrealistic?
but I’d be surprised if there weren’t around 100 different varieties of food to eat throughout Shenmue 3
100's of items, and the best attributes are given to garlic, of all things. That's a design choice and in no way the fault of the player. It puts in perspective how bizarre the food system was designed, and how much of a waste of time it was to make so many items that will naturally be ignored by players because the sensible items have such low value attributes. In terms of developmental resources, you could have Ryo eat a meal. A packaged meal would have taken up less time to assign attributes and model the items and give descriptions. I don't know why they put so much effort into things that won't be used. And what's doubly frustrating is in the game there are restaurants and meals you can see, but you can't purchase or eat them, or eat at those restuarants. And on top of that, Shenua is seen in the house cooking every morning and evening, and all the time you spend with her it's never spent at the table eating a meal.

Why can't I sit and chat with Shenhua in the evening in our efforts to get to know each other? What better way to get to know someone than sit down and eat a meal together? Instead of standing over Shenhua's shoulder like a massive creep, let's sit at the table and eat the food Shenhua is always preparing. You don't even need to animate the eating of food, just set them at the table while they chat.

Why can't I sit with Shenhua and eat breakfast before I go and tackle the day? Why do I have to leave the house and go seek out a bulb of garlic while Shenhua is there preparing food? She's literally animated in the kitching cooking food and Ryo never gets to eat it, and instead has to spend money to go buy something else. Want me to buy food? Ok, let me take it to Shenhua's house and we can cook it.

The problem is is that if you observe the game and the food system, none of it makes sense. None of it.
 
Again: people jumping in to the thread just to say they won't be watching the video are really not helping the discussion. If you don't want to watch the video then don't comment in a thread about it, don't give it your attention, just move on. But go ahead Karen tell us how you are above watching the video and you know it's trash.
 
Do you have any examples of this?
I did post a few examples earlier in this thread, but all of the people calling this video 'honest' criticism seem to have conveniently missed it, so I'll elaborate further.

SEPW starts by complaining about the dialogue and, like many of his other complaints, there is some validity to this. Unfortunately, to demonstrate this point he chooses the opening dialogue between Shenhua and Ryo and then goes on to remark that 'conversations are filled with these really strange fades to black'. Whilst this remark may be true of the cut-scene he chooses to show the viewers, I can't recall another single instance of this happening anywhere else in the game. Yes; it was a poor and baffling design choice, but it is in no way representative of the game's cut-scenes as a whole. Of course, you wouldn't know that from watching this video.

He then chooses two more clips to highlight how poor the game's dialogue is and, wouldn't you know it, in a game with over ten thousand lines of dialogue, he happens to choose two of maybe four or five nonsensical dialogue lines found in the game. I wouldn't have a problem with this if the clips were presented as being two of the worst examples of the dialogue/localization, but they're not. They're presented as 'the dialogue and localization are absolutely terrible throughout the game and these clips are a typical example of what the game's dialogue is like'. Again, a complaint that's grounded in reality being over-exaggerated for the purpose of justifying his click-bait title.

While we're on the subject of the title, I've seen posters here say that the click-bait title is justified because he is (or was once) a fan or that because it's a long video it can't be considered click-bait. I'd welcome an explanation as to how either of these sentiments makes any sense whatsoever, because I fail to see how either are remotely valid.

Moving on, anyway, and we come to his criticism of the morning routine in the game during which he focuses mainly on the Bailu section of the game. Ignoring for a moment that these sections only make up around 30-60 seconds of a one hour plus day in Shenmue 3, he states that it is the same cut-scene every day and that it can't be skipped; neither of which are true.

By developing Ryo's relationship with Shenhua, the player unlocks 2 further variations of the morning cut-scenes, meaning that for the 15-20 days that the player spends in Bailu, they probably see each cut-scene five or six times at most. Is this good game design? Maybe not; but the reality is at least somewhat better than the notion that there is no variation whatsoever.

He later talks about the morning routine in Niaowu and suggests that it is more of the same, but as well as falsely stating that neither of these cut-scenes can be skipped, he neglects to mention that the cut-scene with Shenhua here serves as a recap of where the player needs to head next and instead allows the viewer to believe that it is once again the same cut-scene over and over again.

In this section, he also implies that entering the raised area that triggers the shoe-removal cut-scene is something that is easy to do by mistake and something that players will likely do multiple times during their play-through because the controls are so bad (I don't recall doing this once, let alone multiple times) and then goes on to describe traversing the world of Shenmue 3 as 'a struggle' due to the poor controls. Could the controls be better? Of course they could, but at no point did I ever feel that they impeded my ability to get from point A to point B. Maybe this wasn't the case for him, but as a fan of the first few games, I find it difficult to believe that he struggled with the controls of Shenmue 3 given that they are an improved version of those found in previous games and that many of the environments the player needs to traverse in Shenmue 3 are a lot more open than some of the environments in previous entries.

His initial criticism of the food/stamina system is fair (in that it makes little sense that stamina drain lowers endurance in fights), but complaining that when you're tired you can't run or that if you don't have food you have to run 'all the way back' to the village seems a little strange. Both of these mechanics are in keeping with pretty much every other game that has a food/stamina system and each area contains multiple areas at which the player can purchase food - meaning that running 'all the way back' to buy food probably never takes more than a 60 second round trip and can be easily countered by stocking up on food in advance. I am aware that I am defending a flawed system here and that me offering ways around it doesn't make it any less flawed, but it is nowhere near as big of an issue as the video makes out.

His critique of the combat system and the story is a little more honest, but even then, it's a little simplistic, a lot of the things that he criticizes are things that were found earlier in the series and the criticism itself doesn't arrive until the viewer has sat through the mountains of hyperbole in his critique of the exploration elements of the game.

To me, this whole review came across as a reviewer that didn't enjoy the game but knew that he would get a greater reaction (mo' clicks, mo' money) if he completely trashed the game rather than presenting his criticism honestly (evident by the fact that this video has garnered more views in four days than his unbiased video looking at the history of Shenmue did in over a year). He gave it a click-bate title that he knew would appeal to the average YouTube viewer (as well as drawing in views from fans of the series) and then set to work exaggerating his complaints to present the game as being just as 'terrible' as his click-bait title says that it is. What makes it worse is that a considerable amount of the things that he complains about are things that were present in the first few games and whilst he does acknowledge this, he makes no real effort to elaborate on exactly how Yu could and should have learnt from modern games (unless you count his fan-fiction ending which I’ve discussed already at length earlier in the thread).

It's a little hard to point out that positive reviews are being disingenuous since I have no idea what you like. Unless the review is attempting to tell me that needing $7000 + expenses isn't annoying and grinding for money has always been the highlight of the series, but even then, maybe you're like a really weird accountant.
Well let's say that I made a video that exaggerated some of SEPW's complaints in a positive way to make the game sound better than it is. "The dialogue still maintains the classic Shenmue charm, the quality of the voice acting has improved across the board and the cut-scenes are great." (show clips of Ryo bursting into the castle and confronting Lan Di and Niao-Sun surrounded by flames), "The morning routine develops the more you get to know Shenhua and you'll never have the same morning routine twice." (show three clips of different morning routines with Shenhua), "the combat system has more moves than ever before" (show huge selection of move scrolls), etc, etc.

This would be incredibly disingenuous and I'm sure that you and others would, rightly so, tear the video apart. When things go the other way though, it seems that it's all 'honest' criticism.
 
Last edited:
No, they "choose" to eat garlic because it is the cheapest food item with the most health increase. I'm guessing here because it's been a while since I played, but a bulb of garlic is I think 300 points, where something like an apple is, I think around 60 points? It simply doesn't make sense.



100's of items, and the best attributes are given to garlic, of all things. That's a design choice and in no way the fault of the player. It puts in perspective how bizarre the food system was designed, and how much of a waste of time it was to make so many items that will naturally be ignored by players because the sensible items have such low value attributes. In terms of developmental resources, you could have Ryo eat a meal. A packaged meal would have taken up less time to assign attributes and model the items and give descriptions. I don't know why they put so much effort into things that won't be used. And what's doubly frustrating is in the game there are restaurants and meals you can see, but you can't purchase or eat them, or eat at those restuarants. And on top of that, Shenua is seen in the house cooking every morning and evening, and all the time you spend with her it's never spent at the table eating a meal.

Why can't I sit and chat with Shenhua in the evening in our efforts to get to know each other? What better way to get to know someone than sit down and eat a meal together? Instead of standing over Shenhua's shoulder like a massive creep, let's sit at the table and eat the food Shenhua is always preparing. You don't even need to animate the eating of food, just set them at the table while they chat.

Why can't I sit with Shenhua and eat breakfast before I go and tackle the day? Why do I have to leave the house and go seek out a bulb of garlic while Shenhua is there preparing food? She's literally animated in the kitching cooking food and Ryo never gets to eat it, and instead has to spend money to go buy something else. Want me to buy food? Ok, let me take it to Shenhua's house and we can cook it.

The problem is is that if you observe the game and the food system, none of it makes sense. None of it.
You didn’t actually answer my question, but the fact that you continue to rant about garlic and how ridiculous it is that they chose to give it one of the best money to nutrition ratios suggests that the answer is ‘yes’.

If we take a look at raw garlic as a food source, when compared with something like apples (which you suggested as a better alternative), garlic provides more than three times as many calories and nearly 30 times the amount of protein per gram. Garlic is also a lot more readily available than apples in China, which would explain why it is cheaper to buy raw garlic than it is to buy apples (as it is here in Japan too).

For reference;
Garlic
Apples

The player choosing to eat nothing but raw garlic is unrealistic, yes; but it is absolutely a choice. Of course in real life people strive to eat a more balanced diet, but that different food products provide different levels of nutrition and cost different amounts is, for better or worse in the game, very much in keeping with reality.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post regarding eating with Shenhua and dining at some of the restaurants and would like to see them move in this direction as the series progresses (I actually suggested something very similar to Yu a while back), but as well as costing time and money to implement these features, it would have also drawn out the process of eating even further and likely drawn more complaints (how annoying and time consuming it is to have to go to a restaurant, order food and sit and eat it once or twice a day and how poor the eating animations are or how unrealistic it is that the characters just sit and talk rather than actually eating).

As I’ve said repeatedly, the whole stamina/food system is flawed and requires a lot of work moving forwards; but without knowing the circumstances behind development, it’s difficult to say what they could or should have done differently (beyond perhaps scrapping it entirely).
 
Why can't I sit and chat with Shenhua in the evening in our efforts to get to know each other? What better way to get to know someone than sit down and eat a meal together? Instead of standing over Shenhua's shoulder like a massive creep, let's sit at the table and eat the food Shenhua is always preparing. You don't even need to animate the eating of food, just set them at the table while they chat.
While I get the sentiment (sitting down at a table for dinner each day is an idea I like) it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things how they present it. Standing like a creep, well walk up to many NPC's in many games and you stand like a creep to talk to them.

You can engage the conversation from further away so Shenhua turns to talk to you. Quite often I will stand in my kitchen talking to my wife about various bits and pieces while one of us prepares food so it's hardly unrealistic to what I suspect many people do day to day anyway.

You also forgot to note that they will sometimes sit down, at the kitchen table, and discuss. Likewise Ryo will stand and talk to Shenhua each evening if she's in the lounge area (for want of a better word). That I'd admit is a little more odd as most would probably sit there but it's hardly like he ran up behind her and whispered in her ear.
 
it is alright that some People prefer grinding missions were you just kill lots of enemies, and save random npc as a excuse for the killing to get some xp for the skilltree over the boring life of Ryo has in Shenmue 3.

I can understand that some People want to be a super hero that slaughter lots of enemies in order to get stronger.

They do not want to some work in games to pay their accommodation. But is that stuff the Point of Shenmue in the first place?

To simulate a Living world where you are the part of? Is that the stuff that makes Shenmue Special compared your average Video game that just caters some Super Hero phantasies?

I am late to the Party concerning Shenmue. Knew about the games back then since 1999, evne had a Dreamcast but did not play it because I had fallen for the overblown ps2 hype and found the ps2 more intersting back then.

Did not come back to Shenmue before 2018. I have seen the gaming world evolving. Have tried to play some of the most famous open world games and they were not made for me. They were super boring.

Shenmue on the other Hand one of the first games of this Kind, could win me over. Because it was so different than other games.

it has a world that wants you to make interact with it. it makes you feel that you are really a part of it.


Even Shenmue 3 does that, but of Course it a bit less sophisticated than Shenmue 1, but it is still there.

I can understand that People find the Wood chopping boring. But would chopping is part of Ryos journey hat this Point. So you have to experience it.

Ryo is broke in foreign Country. He Needs Money to eat and to have a place to stay. So he Needs to earn it. The game makes the Player feel like Ryo. And that is a good Twist.

But you Need Patience for that. It is not your typical modern game, were you just have to push a button to progress.
 
Last edited:
it is alright that some People prefer grinding missions were you just kill lots of enemies, and save random npc a a excuse for the killing to get some x, for the skilltree over the boring life of Ryo has in Shenmue 3.

I can understand that some People want to be a super hero that Slaughter lots of enemies in order to get stronger.

They do not want to some work in games to pay their accommodation. But is that stuff the Point of Shenmue in the first place?

To simulate a Living world where you are the part of? Is that the stuff that makes Shenmue Special compared your average Video game that just caters some Super Hero phantasies?

I am late to the Party concerning Shenmue. Knew about the games back then since 1999, evne had a Dreamcast but did not play it because I had fallen for the overblown ps2 hype and found the ps2 more intersting back then.

Did not come back to Shenmue before 2018. I have seen the gaming world evolving. Have tried to play some of the most famous open world games and they were not made for me. They were super boring.

Shenmue on the other Hand one of the first games of this Kind, could win me over. Because it was so different than other games.

it has a world that wants you to make interact with it. it makes you feel that you are really a part of it.


Even Shenmue 3 does that, but of Course it a bit less sophisticated than Shenmue 1, but it is still there.

I can understand that People find the Wood chopping boring. But would chopping is part of Ryos journey hat this Point. So you have to experience it.

Ryo is broke in foreign Country. He Needs Money to eat and to have a place to stay. So he Needs to earn it. The game makes the Player feel like Ryo. And that is a good Twist.

But you Need Patience for that. It is not your typical modern game, were you just have to push a button to progress.


It worked in Shenmue I and II but not in III for multiple reasons.
Funnily, I think Shenmue III side activities (at least some of them) are more appealing than I and II. The wood chopping, the fishing (especially the fishing), the whack a mole... I like them better than most of the side activities of I and II. But first, I and II weren't working around a complicated economics system. Gambling in I and II meant getting money directly. And you didnt need to save scum as some said. But you could still do so and it'd be fast and painless. But in III, you have those tokens, that you need to trade and then sell. It makes the whole process annoying because it involves a lot of backtracking.

Also, side activites weren't the fun in I and II, but they were a part of a believeable world. Which isn't the case for Shenmue III's Bailu.

And most importantly... Shenmue I and II delivered. Sure, there were some lows at some point, but the highs were fucking high. Shenmue III is a mix of lows, mids... And really few highs that are barely high. Too few good moments and not even that good.
 
Hinders the player? Come now, stop being so dramatic lmfao.
health being connected to the player’s stamina results in losing health from simply walking and running around in the game. it punishes the player for simply progressing.

This is definitely a hinderance.
 
Last edited:
As for seeing stamina drain, you realize that even when sitting around, your body is constantly burning energy, right? One day in Shenmue is what? One hour in real time? So standing around for five minutes in is the equivalent of standing around for a few hours in game time. I’m not sure how long one needs to stand around before the stamina drain has a significant impact on your overall stamina (ie, enough stamina has been lost that you really need to eat something) , but I certainly didn’t feel as though I needed to eat an excessive amount of food on any of my playthroughs (if anything, I don’t think Ryo was anywhere near the 2,000 or so calories required for a man of his age).
I do not understand this obsession with this kind of realism on a eating mechanic, yes people burn energy just to function, but humans for example also need to expel from the body the waste generated by food digestion and I am not seeing here anybody requesting toilet mechanics to add realism when in high probability it would not be fun.

Edit: Now that I think about it, does any room in the game have a toilet of any kind? I do not seem to remember any.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: JCJ
I do not understand this obsession with this kind of realism on a eating mechanic, yes people burn energy just to function, but humans for example also need to expel from the body the waste generated by food digestion and I am not seeing here anybody requesting toilet mechanics to add realism when in high probability it would not be fun.

Edit: Now that I think about it, does any room in the game have a toilet of any kind? I do not seem to remember any.

I think there's a bit of a difference between eating and backing one out. No one in their right mind would want Shenmue to become a shitting sim lol.
 
I do not understand this obsession with this kind of realism on a eating mechanic, yes people burn energy just to function, but humans for example also need to expel from the body the waste generated by food digestion and I am not seeing here anybody requesting toilet mechanics to add realism when in high probability it would not be fun.

Edit: Now that I think about it, does any room in the game have a toilet of any kind? I do not seem to remember any.
Wasnt there a marked toilet area in 3? In the Niaowu hotel
 
Yes there was a toilet at the hotel in Niawu hotel.

Speaking of realism. I am not sure if that info was real or not, but wasn't the first Shenmue meant to be even more realistic in the planning stage? Not sure if the info came from Sega themselfs or it was made up, it seems that there were some Features that got scrapped.

Maybe People with a deeper knowlege of Shenmue history know more about that.

But if that is true the Stamina feature in S3 makes sense. It helped to make Ryo more human.
 
Back
Top