SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[Creward]

I'll try not to laught for the comparison...
but yeah you have to go to life/farm sims games to find few of the features that shenmue has.
Isn't it unique for an rpg open world game?




most...bethesda makes only fallout and elder scrolls, and even those still lacks many of the features that Shenmue has.

I don't know why you insist on this fallacious narrative that shenmue has nothing unique.
If shenmue is just your average game, then why waiting 20 years for a third episode? Wasn't more simple to just play TES, AC or Yakuza?

Well, when I read your list of questions there was one that excluded RPG (the dialog one) so I assumed that you wanted non RPG games. And it is fine that you do not agree on the answer but without any constraints/requirements those cover the isolated gameplay system /mechanics as passage of time and scheduling of NPC is relevant for townsims and sanbox RPG and not much relevant for any other genre.
There also seems to be a difference of opinion of what genre Shenmue is, as I do not consider it open world since it does not have the characteristics of what in current gaming the term open world is used for.

I also do not understand why bring Yakuza into the discussion since its a complete different genre (action jrpg).

The discussion with you as far as I understood was on that you asked games also did implement gameplay systems that are similar to those Shenmue does but from what I am understanding with this reply is that you are actually asking for is different "the experience"/"core illusion" of the game which is a different topic I believe.

 

[ValoniMahoni]

Without realizing, you just described some of the qualities that made shenmue a unique experience compared to other games.
Shenmue does all this things at the same time, with a very personal style and with an attention of detail incredible, no other game manage to do that.

It's not just a matter of quality, there are a lot of great games out there, and even some remained incomplete story-wise, still you don't see the same amount of dedication to example for Xenogears, why? Because it was just a great but standard rpg.

But Shenmue was and still is really unique, and even 20 years later, I never find a game experience at the same level.
That's why fans supported this series so strongly.

Yea, but he talked about Shenmue 2 and not 3.

 

[iknifaugood]

Where I take issue is that it is presented here as being some nonsensical mess throughout the entire game, which isn't the case.

That's fair, he calls it a "surrealist nightmare" or something like that, which is obviously hyperbole. I guess it's because I'm more familiar with his work, when he calls the later seasons of the Simpsons "Zombie Simpsons", I don't think that distracts from his overall point, I think it serves to strengthen his point by clearly illustrating what he thinks the problem is.

A good review shouldn't be about whether or not the reviewer 'recommends' the game or not implicitly, but providing the audience with the information to make the choice for themselves.

I disagree; a review is an opinion and, to a lesser extent, an argument for why that opinion is right.

the content should be about justifying that opinion. If he needs to cherry-pick examples to back up the criticisms that form this opinion, then I'd argue that the he knows that the criticisms themselves aren't strong enough.

I think that's missing the forest for the trees. His point is not that Shenmue 3 is bad because there are hundreds of examples of poor translation, or weird janky cutscenes, or nonsensical dialogue; it's that all these things combine to form something that is, in his view, terrible. His main point, that nothing happens in the story and therefore everything the game asks you to do is meaningless, is illustrated best when he contrasts it with the point he says S3 "gets good".

Discussion on how the system could be improved in future games could be productive, but this isn't really the place for that. Just as an aside though, he does sit down and eat with Shenhua after returning home on several occasions (well, they sit around a table with food on it).

I only bring it up because so much of S3 plays like disconnected vignettes and that's not at all how the first 2 games were designed. Interactions with Ine San had purpose, she would react to your actions (however rudimentary), and that would make the world feel alive. This dojo praises the economy of S3 as being interconnected, forcing you to engage in the various systems, but what of the other systems in the game that should be more important (ie: interacting with Shenhua)? Too often S3 feels like a series of disconnected vignettes as opposed to a well-integrated gameplay loop that propells the player forward.

The vast majority of reviews are written around the launch window before patches have been released meaning that including their content in the review requires the reviewer to actively go back and replay the game and then make changes to their review.

Some publications have taken a stance to only review the game as released to combat the practice of releasing an unfinished game and patching it later. It's not merely out of convenience.

Here the reviewer does not have to go back and replay the game, nor does he have to go back and make changes to his review. He just has to be honest about the game he played. Instead we see a conscious choice to ignore the patch because doing so allows him to more easily portray the game as some terrible waste of time.

That's not fair. He's released 7 videos since S3 launched. It's very possible that he beat the game at launch, wrote his thoughts down/captured footage, and didn't get around to making the video until he finished his other projects. I doubt he was interested in playing the game multiple times. Also, imo, the most devastating critique of the game as a "waste of time" is when he simply describes what you have to do in the game to get the 2 moves and how it ends; something that can't be addressed in a patch.

Modern game designers seem to love throwing random events and side quests into the path of the player to distract them from the main story-line - and whilst this is something we do see in Shenmue - it's usually done in an incredibly non-intrusive way.

I don't think it's non-obtrusive at all. In S3, your main goal is to find Yuan, and you can't even explore the entirety of the tiny village because the game won't let you. When you have to beat the thugs, you have to jump through a ton of hoops. Modern games do a way better job of using their stories to justify these kinds of artificial road blocks but S3 just gives you a bunch of "but first" checklists and feels positively ancient because of it.

You're right. Not everything needs to be a cutscene, but I fail to see how something being presented with a cutscene makes it inherently bad.

It's not the cutscene, it's how often the gameplay flow and objective are interrupted. FWIW I actually like the fact that Ryo takes his shoes off and walks through a temple as a sign of respect. I agree with the criticism that you have to ping pong back and forth through these areas too many times (Niaowu in particular is incredibly artificial in how the shortcuts open up), but I disagree with those specific examples as being inherently bad. But I don't think he says they're inherently bad, just that how they're implemented, and how they stack up with other annoyances makes them bad.

The issue is that the Plinkett reviews of the Star Wars prequels present the negative criticism in an honest way, whilst this review cherry-picks examples, exaggerates issues and, in some cases, straight up lies in an attempt to present the game as something that it is not.

If you think the Prequels are good (and people do), you could level the exact same complaints at the Plinkett review.

In that sense I think that the reasonable expectation is that, at the very least, what he's saying is true. You could certainly make the argument that the majority of his criticism is grounded in truth (which I do believe that it is), but I think that the end result has strayed too far from that truth to still be considered 'honest'.

I think it's very hard for some to grasp that he thinks the game is terrible. He lists hardly anything he liked about the game, he doesn't recommend anyone play the game, and he's content to abandon Shenmue altogether. From this perspective, I don't think anything he says is dishonest because, even if you think the examples he uses are flimsy and don't convince you of his argument, they were enough to convince him the game is terrible, particularly compared to S1 and 2, and so, unless you think he's lying about his own opinion, I don't see how you can call him dishonest.

Plinkett complains about the final battle of Phantom Menace, something he compares negatively to the original trilogy, largely because the fight is too long and the characters are thin. If, for whatever reason, you really liked the characters and the fight totally worked for you, this does not make the Plinkett review "dishonest"; he's articulating why he (and many others) didn't like it.

 

[GhostTrick]

Without realizing, you just described some of the qualities that made shenmue a unique experience compared to other games.
Shenmue does all this things at the same time, with a very personal style and with an attention of detail incredible, no other game manage to do that.

It's not just a matter of quality, there are a lot of great games out there, and even some remained incomplete story-wise, still you don't see the same amount of dedication to example for Xenogears, why? Because it was just a great but standard rpg.

But Shenmue was and still is really unique, and even 20 years later, I never find a game experience at the same level.
That's why fans supported this series so strongly.

There are a lot of well crafted games.
And what I said applied to Shenmue II, not III.

 

[WuyingRen]

I disagree; a review is an opinion and, to a lesser extent, an argument for why that opinion is right.

I said a good review.

I think that's missing the forest for the trees. His point is not that Shenmue 3 is bad because there are hundreds of examples of poor translation, or weird janky cutscenes, or nonsensical dialogue; it's that all these things combine to form something that is, in his view, terrible. His main point, that nothing happens in the story and therefore everything the game asks you to do is meaningless, is illustrated best when he contrasts it with the point he says S3 "gets good".

I understand his point entirely, but take issue with the presentation. I really don't think he needs to misrepresent the game to make his point and feel that he's doing his viewers who haven't played the game a massive disservice by presenting it in the way that he does.

I only bring it up because so much of S3 plays like disconnected vignettes and that's not at all how the first 2 games were designed. Interactions with Ine San had purpose, she would react to your actions (however rudimentary), and that would make the world feel alive. This dojo praises the economy of S3 as being interconnected, forcing you to engage in the various systems, but what of the other systems in the game that should be more important (ie: interacting with Shenhua)? Too often S3 feels like a series of disconnected vignettes as opposed to a well-integrated gameplay loop that propells the player forward.

The game does a lot to encourage interaction with Shenhua; from forcing the player to return home early every night to having her wander around Niaowu for Ryo to bump into during the day. Perhaps more could have been done to reward the player for interacting with her (although I personally loved the subtle changes to the morning routine that come as a result of Ryo's relationship with her growing), but I disagree that a Shenmue game should really force the player to do anything outside of the main story line (and even then, they should be free to move at their own pace). I think they found a good balance in this regard, but I can see how others might disagree with that.

That's not fair. He's released 7 videos since S3 launched. It's very possible that he beat the game at launch, wrote his thoughts down/captured footage, and didn't get around to making the video until he finished his other projects. I doubt he was interested in playing the game multiple times. Also, imo, the most devastating critique of the game as a "waste of time" is when he simply describes what you have to do in the game to get the 2 moves and how it ends; something that can't be addressed in a patch.

It's possible, but he mentions having played through the game twice and, from a business perspective (in terms of YouTube views), it would make sense for him to release his video as soon as he is able to. I suspect he probably took some time between his playthroughs to see if his feelings towards the game had changed before releasing this vide, but this is just me speculating. From memory though, a lot of the big online gaming publications did cover the news of the patch that allowed dialogue and cutscenes to be skipped, so I would be surprised if he did not know about it one way or another.

I don't think it's non-obtrusive at all. In S3, your main goal is to find Yuan, and you can't even explore the entirety of the tiny village because the game won't let you. When you have to beat the thugs, you have to jump through a ton of hoops. Modern games do a way better job of using their stories to justify these kinds of artificial road blocks but S3 just gives you a bunch of "but first" checklists and feels positively ancient because of it.

The 'roadblocks' you speak of here are actually designed to keep the player on course rather than to drag them away from the main story. I can't say that I was a big fan of the way they segmented off both areas like that, but it did help make it clear where the player should be searching in instances where the next objective wasn't implicitly stated and I'd argue that it probably saved a lot of players a lot of time (although this time is probably lost later in Niawou when you try to get from point A to point B only to find that one of the pathways is still blocked off).

I see your point about checklists, but this isn't too dissimilar from the 'objectives' lists we find in modern games and I'd argue that in most instances, Shenmue 3 cycles between objectives fairly organically and in much the same way that the first two games did. It might seem a little archaic by virtue of them being similar to a 20 year old game, but I'd be curious as to how one might improve it given that in most instances, it follows what a person would likely do if faced with that situation in real life (Person has disappeared - > I should ask if anybody has seen them. Told that thugs have been seen in the area -> I should ask people about the thugs. Told that person A had a run in with the thugs - I should speak to person A. etc, etc).

It does fall on its face a few times (like how it becomes very clear to the player quite early on that the thugs are targeting stone-masons, but Ryo still needs to be told this implicitly before realizing it), but for the most part, I think it works. Unfortunately the narrative trail that these breadcrumbs are leading us on isn't a particularly thrilling one and I think that this perhaps makes the system feel tedious at times even if it is the right system for this type of game.

It's not the cutscene, it's how often the gameplay flow and objective are interrupted. FWIW I actually like the fact that Ryo takes his shoes off and walks through a temple as a sign of respect. I agree with the criticism that you have to ping pong back and forth through these areas too many times (Niaowu in particular is incredibly artificial in how the shortcuts open up), but I disagree with those specific examples as being inherently bad. But I don't think he says they're inherently bad, just that how they're implemented, and how they stack up with other annoyances makes them bad.

Outside of the optional side-quests (which the game avoids forcing down the player's throat), the only things that break up the flow of the game's story that I can think of are the morning scenes with Shenhua (which can be skipped), the shoe removal cutscene (which can be avoided all together by not entering the raised area) and the night time animation (which I believe can also be skipped).

Each of these things last between five and ten seconds and happen at most once a day (there are several times where Shenhua accompanies you into Bailu and one day where she heads to Ternary Springs before you wake up and the nighttime animation sometimes doesn't trigger depending on what you're doing at 7PM). That's 30 seconds at most out of every 60 minute day.

I suppose there are also things like training (which for the most part is optional) and eating (which... yeah, this one sucks a bit) too, but I don't think these disrupt the flow too much.

I think it's very hard for some to grasp that he thinks the game is terrible. He lists hardly anything he liked about the game, he doesn't recommend anyone play the game, and he's content to abandon Shenmue altogether. From this perspective, I don't think anything he says is dishonest because, even if you think the examples he uses are flimsy and don't convince you of his argument, they were enough to convince him the game is terrible, particularly compared to S1 and 2, and so, unless you think he's lying about his own opinion, I don't see how you can call him dishonest.

I find it quite easy to grasp his overall opinion of the game as there was a time not long after my first playthrough where I felt very similarly to him (perhaps 'bad' more than 'terrible') for many of the same reasons. That he dislikes the game is clear to see and easy to understand, but his hatred for the game coming from an honest place doesn't mean that he can say whatever he likes and still have that criticism be considered 'honest'. I mean, I hate my neighbor and have a lot of valid reasons for feeling that way - but that doesn't mean that I can say whatever I like about her and have it all be true, does it?

If you think the Prequels are good (and people do), you could level the exact same complaints at the Plinkett review.

Plinkett complains about the final battle of Phantom Menace, something he compares negatively to the original trilogy, largely because the fight is too long and the characters are thin. If, for whatever reason, you really liked the characters and the fight totally worked for you, this does not make the Plinkett review "dishonest"; he's articulating why he (and many others) didn't like it.

I think you're comparing apples to garlic here. Plinkett's criticisms are clearly subjective and regardless of whether they are expressed in an objective or subjective way, his audience know that they are subjective because it is impossible for these things to be objective. We know that he thinks that the fight is too long and he thinks the characters are thin whilst also knowing that we might think otherwise. Perhaps if he said "The fight is too long. It's 45 minutes.", we would have a fair comparison.

SEPWs video presents false statements as objective truths on several occasions and in others intentionally misrepresents the game in such a way as to make the viewer think they are being given what they need to form an opinion when in reality they are only being shown a small piece of the picture whilst being told that it's the finished piece.

 

[Novyal]

His last Shenmue video was one of the lowest viewed on his channel, doubt he's making Shenmue videos for clickbait.

Making a positive video about Shenmue and SEGA and making a video hating on Shenmue are two completely different things with completely different audiences.

The way you dismiss this is very disingenuous. Most gamers know how long fans waited for Shenmue 3, they obviously feel morbidly curious about a video stating it's terrible. It's clickbait.

Most people barley know what Shenmue is let alone want to hate it.

Shenmue 3 was announced side by side with freaking Final Fantasy 7 remake! You bet people KNOW what Shenmue 3 is or at least heard about it!

"Fuel for Shenmue haters" is an interesting turn of phrase, I mean what, is it going to make them buy less games than the none they were going to buy? Or are there now "SHENMUE SUCKS" protests going on that I'm not aware of? Haters of the series are going to hate it the same amount regardless of one youtube video.

It will get less people interested in the series. Potential fans on the fence won't even give it a chance after these videos.

There has been a lot of hate surrounding Shenmue lately, all you have to do is google "Shenmue sucks".

Indeed, haters will still hate it the same amount, but now they have new ammunition.

Some of you are taking this way too seriously and need to calm down.

Stating that Shenmue 3 is terrible, is a blatant lie, the video has ill intent written all over it.

We are taking this with the right amount of seriousness. There's many many videos talking crap about Shenmue 3 online, but for some reason this one in specific "pissed me of".
And that's because he poses as a Shenmue fan to then attack it, because he knows that will give him more credibility among his audience.

This is someone who is making a name for himself at the expense of the Shenmue series and its fans who worked so hard to make Shenmue 3 a reality.

Edit: and I'm not saying you can't disagree with the video, just do it in a constructive way.

Constructive criticism should only be used if SuperEyepatchWolf had been honest. Which I doubt he was.

In any case, I am being as constructive as he was. I simply call it as I see it. It's clickbait.

I really respect the people in this thread who are actually debating systems and mechanics they like. That fosters discussion and growth and may even lead to people seeing Shenmue III in a new light. Getting mad and throwing out insults at the creator just because he's not on this platform only fosters people looking at our community like a bunch of angry people who hate everyone who doesn't love Shenmue unconditionally.

You gain no respect from me. I find your dismissal of criticism and conduct very suspicious in this age where Kickstarter projects are being sabotaged left and right.

I'm not throwing insults though. I have no issue with people criticizing Shenmue, when it's fair.

 

[Suzaku]

There are a lot of well crafted games.
And what I said applied to Shenmue II, not III.

You missed the point.
I made you notice that you love Shenmue (S2 in this case) because it's a unique game, even if you never realized it.

It wasn't just a great game, you find a lot of great games everywhere every day.
But only one was supported by its fanbase for 20 years...

 

[Vasid]

Making a positive video about Shenmue and SEGA and making a video hating on Shenmue are two completely different things with completely different audiences.

The way you dismiss this is very disingenuous. Most gamers know how long fans waited for Shenmue 3, they obviously feel morbidly curious about a video stating it's terrible. It's clickbait.

My point about how many views he gets on his popular videos still stands, the fact is this "hating" video won't get even close to 1m views. By the way calling other's statements disingenuous is very paranoid, not everyone is out to get Shenmue much less someone who's been posting on this site for years, in fact I've been on this site longer than you have.

Shenmue 3 was announced side by side with freaking Final Fantasy 7 remake! You bet people KNOW what Shenmue 3 is or at least heard about it!

Just because it was announced at a major show doesn't mean a ton of people actually know about the series. A lot of games get announced at E3, do you know the names of every one of them and what they're about? I know you want to live in denial and think Shenmue is bigger than it is but it's not. Again both the crowd that loves Shenmue AND the crowd that hates it are a very small minority compared to something like Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed. This is just a fact.

It will get less people interested in the series. Potential fans on the fence won't even give it a chance after these videos.

There has been a lot of hate surrounding Shenmue lately, all you have to do is google "Shenmue sucks".

Indeed, haters will still hate it the same amount, but now they have new ammunition.

New ammuntion? What does that even mean? So now in addition to telling people how Shenmue sucks they now have 1 youtube video on top of a literal mountain of them. Oh no! SOMEONE STOP SUPEREYEPATCHWOLF!

Stating that Shenmue 3 is terrible, is a blatant lie, the video has ill intent written all over it.

You haven't even watched the video, how do you know?

We are taking this with the right amount of seriousness. There's many many videos talking crap about Shenmue 3 online, but for some reason this one in specific "pissed me of".
And that's because he poses as a Shenmue fan to then attack it, because he knows that will give him more credibility among his audience.

Poses as a Shenmue fan? I thought we weren't allowed to call people fake fans @spud1897 ? Also if he's a poser Shenmue fan then how do you explain his previous Shenmue video in which he was clearly very passionate. See this is your specific problem: You're taking his video in bad faith. You're assuming (again without having even watched the video) that it's just a video trashing the series with no heart behind it, and you're wrong.

This is someone who is making a name for himself at the expense of the Shenmue series and its fans who worked so hard to make Shenmue 3 a reality.

Making a name for himself at the expense of Shenmue? His channel already has 800k subs and his most popular video (which is about the Simpsons) already has 6m views. He's not making a name for himself at the expense of Shenmue, he's expressing his frustration as a fan and you can't simply dismiss that as clickbait and be taken seriously by anyone aside from the handful of people in this thread who WANT to hate the video.

Constructive criticism should only be used if SuperEyepatchWolf had been honest. Which I doubt he was.

Well you wouldn't know because you haven't even watched the video.

You gain no respect from me. I find your dismissal of criticism and conduct very suspicious in this age where Kickstarter projects are being sabotaged left and right.

I'm not throwing insults though. I have no issue with people criticizing Shenmue, when it's fair.

When is it fair to you? Given you won't even watch a video with a negative title apparently that "when it's fair" margin is pretty slim. But go on, I guess we should all look to you to decide if criticism is fair or not (even though you haven't actually looked at the criticism and are just going off).

 

[spud1897]

We're not @Vasid

@Novyal I appreciate the frustration. I've watched the video and he's not posing as a Shenmue fan. He's a fan of the first two.

Let's avoid calling people who criticise the games posers. If you feel its unfair then that cool but we must be mindful of how that comes across.

 

[Vasid]

We're not @Vasid

@Novyal I appreciate the frustration. I've watched the video and he's not posing as a Shenmue fan. He's a fan of the first two.

Let's avoid calling people who criticise the games posers. If you feel its unfair then that cool but we must be mindful of how that comes across.

And since he called my motivation in to question I'll state my motivation explicitly here: I think people in the community who jump to blind rage over the title of a youtube video make the Shenmue community look bad. People want to join a fun atmosphere of chilled out people who love what they love and don't care what anyone else says. People don't want to join a community of people who are filled with rage over a youtube video that disagrees with them or states something they don't like and spend days blindly attacking the video and anyone who doesn't immediately dismiss it.

Calling a popular youtuber names and a video that isn't clickbait clickbait just because you don't like the title isn't a good look. Really need to stress that the top videos on this guy's channel get 1m+ views and the biggest one has 6m. This Shenmue video he made likely won't even break 800k. Clickbait is also a bait and switch where you put something shocking in the title and then don't deliver (hence the bait part), and SEPW explains exactly how he feels in the video and why he feels that way.

Is the title shocking? Yes. But is it exactly how SEPW feels? Probably. Are people not allowed to express themselves fully anymore without it being considered clickbait? Should he have ran away from making the title of the video what he felt just because a few people would think it's clickbait? Honestly it sounds like a lot of Shenmue fans aren't clicking the video out of rage so that's pretty bad clickbait as it's not drawing in clicks outside of his subscribers. Maybe a more neutral title would have gotten him more views.

Edit: Oh and I know I'm replying to Spud but this is more a general statement, not asking the questions I ask of Spud, he's been very reasonable through all this even though he doesn't like the video's title or content. Spud is someone who makes our community look good along with all the other people who are actually debating the video's content instead of just it's title or legitimacy.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

And since he called my motivation in to question I'll state my motivation explicitly here: I think people in the community who jump to blind rage over the title of a youtube video make the Shenmue community look bad. People want to join a fun atmosphere of chilled out people who love what they love and don't care what anyone else says. People don't want to join a community of people who are filled with rage over a youtube video that disagrees with them or states something they don't like and spend days blindly attacking the video and anyone who doesn't immediately dismiss it.

Calling a popular youtuber names and a video that isn't clickbait clickbait just because you don't like the title isn't a good look. Really need to stress that the top videos on this guy's channel get 1m+ views and the biggest one has 6m. This Shenmue video he made likely won't even break 800k. Clickbait is also a bait and switch where you put something shocking in the title and then don't deliver (hence the bait part), and SEPW explains exactly how he feels in the video and why he feels that way.

Is the title shocking? Yes. But is it exactly how SEPW feels? Probably. Are people not allowed to express themselves fully anymore without it being considered clickbait? Should he have ran away from making the title of the video what he felt just because a few people would think it's clickbait? Honestly it sounds like a lot of Shenmue fans aren't clicking the video out of rage so that's pretty bad clickbait as it's not drawing in clicks outside of his subscribers. Maybe a more neutral title would have gotten him more views.

Edit: Oh and I know I'm replying to Spud but this is more a general statement, not asking the questions I ask of Spud, he's been very reasonable through all this even though he doesn't like the video's title or content. Spud is someone who makes our era community look good.

I think you make some fair points, but I think the people you're talking about make up a small percentage of the active members of the community. Are there really that many people here acting this way? I really only can count one or two.

 

[Vasid]

I think you make some fair points, but I think the people you're talking about make up a small percentage of the active members of the community. Are there really that many people here acting this way? I really only can count one or two.

A good point, I'm probably more concerned about it than I should be. I just feel like Shenmue fans should be better. I wish more people would keep in mind DAN "Be brave a stay calm to make the right decision". Stay clam when you see criticism, try and see where it's coming from instead of growing enraged and lashing out. Be brave and remember that one video cannot hurt Shenmue, it won't help, but it won't hurt it either. This one video isn't going to make anyone who was going to buy/back Shenmue 4 not do so now, in fact as I said pages ago this video keeps the discussion around the title/franchise going.

I'm also probably barking up the wrong tree trying to reason with the people who are so mad.

 

[iknifaugood]

I said a good review.

I still disagree; I'm not watching a review to get an impartial summary of the game, especially not a 40+ minute review that spoils the whole game. Most of these are "reviews" in name only anyway; the Plinkett reviews and Lindsay Ellis' review of Game of Thrones Season 8 are damn near documentaries.

I really don't think he needs to misrepresent the game to make his point and feel that he's doing his viewers who haven't played the game a massive disservice by presenting it in the way that he does.

I guess that's fair, I didn't really view it as him misrepresenting the game since everything he talks about is in the game, just to varying degrees of severity.

The game does a lot to encourage interaction with Shenhua; from forcing the player to return home early every night to having her wander around Niaowu for Ryo to bump into during the day. Perhaps more could have been done to reward the player for interacting with her (although I personally loved the subtle changes to the morning routine that come as a result of Ryo's relationship with her growing), but I disagree that a Shenmue game should really force the player to do anything outside of the main story line (and even then, they should be free to move at their own pace). I think they found a good balance in this regard, but I can see how others might disagree with that.

Well that's just it isn't it? The game "encourages" interaction with Shenhua by forcing the player to return home early. In S1, it's a choice whether you return home early and the game reacts accordingly. I love things that exist in Shenmue for their own sake, like thanking the four wude masters in S2, I think it adds a lot but it's also a choice. S3 doesn't offer much in the way of meaningful choices.

he mentions having played through the game twice

He did? That's surprising. I must've missed that. If that's the case then he should have at least mentioned that the dialogue skip was patched in.

The 'roadblocks' you speak of here are actually designed to keep the player on course rather than to drag them away from the main story. I can't say that I was a big fan of the way they segmented off both areas like that, but it did help make it clear where the player should be searching in instances where the next objective wasn't implicitly stated and I'd argue that it probably saved a lot of players a lot of time (although this time is probably lost later in Niawou when you try to get from point A to point B only to find that one of the pathways is still blocked off).

They help keep the player oriented but that's only needed because, as SEPW points out, the scenario is so absurd. Most games don't write themselves into corners where the only option is to set up invisible walls that leave the player scratching their head. Ryo needs to find Shenhua's missing father; there is urgency to that scenario that is completely at odds with Ryo casually strolling around a small part of the town refusing to go past a certain point until he talks to random locals.

I see your point about checklists, but this isn't too dissimilar from the 'objectives' lists we find in modern games and I'd argue that in most instances, Shenmue 3 cycles between objectives fairly organically and in much the same way that the first two games did. It might seem a little archaic by virtue of them being similar to a 20 year old game, but I'd be curious as to how one might improve it given that in most instances, it follows what a person would likely do if faced with that situation in real life (Person has disappeared - > I should ask if anybody has seen them. Told that thugs have been seen in the area -> I should ask people about the thugs. Told that person A had a run in with the thugs - I should speak to person A. etc, etc).

The scenario itself should be changed. Maybe you go to Bailu Village and it's been ransacked, the thugs are gone and you have no idea where they went. Ryo wants to waste no time and wants to chase after them into the mountains but Shenhua wants to help the villagers and figure out what happened. That way you can now start the game at a slower pace, helping the villagers fix Bailu Village. Maybe Grandmaster Feng knows where they took Yuan but won't tell Ryo because he knows that he's too reckless or something, similar to Xiuying and the Wulinshu, so he tries to train Ryo, teaching him about his father. Then Shenhua can get kidnapped by Chai or Red Snakes or Niao Sun or whoever and that's when Feng either tells Ryo where to go or Ryo just finds out from one of the kidnappers and now we're off to Niaowu/Castle area with a real purpose.

I know it's more fanfic but it's just to illustrate the point that S3 didn't need to be this way; it didn't need to be any way. If Suzuki wanted it to be slow paced, he should have written that into the story and ramped up the tension when he wanted to.

Outside of the optional side-quests (which the game avoids forcing down the player's throat), the only things that break up the flow of the game's story that I can think of are the morning scenes with Shenhua (which can be skipped), the shoe removal cutscene (which can be avoided all together by not entering the raised area) and the night time animation (which I believe can also be skipped).

Each of these things last between five and ten seconds and happen at most once a day (there are several times where Shenhua accompanies you into Bailu and one day where she heads to Ternary Springs before you wake up and the nighttime animation sometimes doesn't trigger depending on what you're doing at 7PM). That's 30 seconds at most out of every 60 minute day.

I suppose there are also things like training (which for the most part is optional) and eating (which... yeah, this one sucks a bit) too, but I don't think these disrupt the flow too much.

The things that break up the flow are definitely, as you say, training and eating but also the fact that such a simple objective (go beat up some thugs in a small village) gets stretched out with a bunch of busywork. So it doesn't feel like progress, it feels like you're being held back. In S2, all the things that serve to stretch out the story are interesting, we learn about the four wude, the Chawan sign, the Wulinshu, and meet the Ren, Joy and Wong all while the objective is "Find Lishao Tao".

That he dislikes the game is clear to see and easy to understand, but his hatred for the game coming from an honest place doesn't mean that he can say whatever he likes and still have that criticism be considered 'honest'. I mean, I hate my neighbor and have a lot of valid reasons for feeling that way - but that doesn't mean that I can say whatever I like about her and have it all be true, does it?

That's true but I don't see him saying whatever he wants about the game. He doesn't outright make shit up. He exaggerates a little and maybe makes a few things seem worse than they are to make a point. But then again maybe he really hated that shoe cutscene, who knows?

I think you're comparing apples to garlic here. Plinkett's criticisms are clearly subjective and regardless of whether they are expressed in an objective or subjective way, his audience know that they are subjective because it is impossible for these things to be objective. We know that he thinks that the fight is too long and he thinks the characters are thin whilst also knowing that we might think otherwise. Perhaps if he said "The fight is too long. It's 45 minutes.", we would have a fair comparison.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that I really like Phantom Menace and I say "well, I timed the fight in Episode 1 and Empire Strikes Back and Episode 1 is maybe 2 minutes longer therefore Plinkett is lying about Episode 1". It's like, no, he's not lying, he's taking that instance and combining it with all the other problems (following too many characters, jarring tonal shifts, weird logic leaps) to come to the conclusion that the ending doesn't work, not just that the fight is too long. Plus there's the fact that Empire has the "I am your father" line and is an amazing movie leading up to that point..

SEPWs video presents false statements as objective truths on several occasions and in others intentionally misrepresents the game in such a way as to make the viewer think they are being given what they need to form an opinion when in reality they are only being shown a small piece of the picture whilst being told that it's the finished piece.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. It's true that he advises his viewers not to play the game, but he never claims "just watch this video instead of playing the game, it's the same difference really". To me, it's no different than the take downs of Batman v Superman, Game of Thrones Season 8, or the Star Wars Prequels (and sequels); he's not obligated to be fair and balanced (and, in fact, SEPW is far more respectful than those other reviews, compare the way he treats Suzuki to the way Plinkett treats Lucas, or most people treat the writers of Game of Thrones).

I don't like S3, this review echoes my feelings pretty closely, but I'm willing to grant Suzuki the benefit of the doubt that these are growing pains; but he's not entitled to that benefit of the doubt.

 

[Vasid]

I don't think that's a fair assessment. It's true that he advises his viewers not to play the game, but he never claims "just watch this video instead of playing the game, it's the same difference really". To me, it's no different than the take downs of Batman v Superman, Game of Thrones Season 8, or the Star Wars Prequels (and sequels); he's not obligated to be fair and balanced (and, in fact, SEPW is far more respectful than those other reviews, compare the way he treats Suzuki to the way Plinkett treats Lucas, or most people treat the writers of Game of Thrones).

This part really speaks to me. I'm a fan of the Prequels and yet I don't run around trashing RLM or the Prequel Reviews, in fact I actually like those reviews, it's those reviews that made me go back to the Prequels and when I did I decided for myself that I liked them. Are they the best movies ever made? No. If I said that I'd just be in denial. But they're movies I enjoy, maybe it's nostalgia, maybe it's that I find charm in their awkward dialogue and often meme-worthy nature (Hello there), but whatever it is I know I love them and the Plinkett reviews didn't change that.

My prequel story is a good example of how even negative youtube videos can lead to renewed interest in unpopular things. I am willing to bet anything there are at least a few Shenmue 3 players out there who saw SEPW's video and went back to the game, and yeah they may have went in to "see the trainwreck" but maybe they'll find something special there they enjoy.

 

[Suzaku]

I think people in the community who jump to blind rage over the title of a youtube video make the Shenmue community look bad. People want to join a fun atmosphere of chilled out people who love what they love and don't care what anyone else says. People don't want to join a community of people who are filled with rage over a youtube video that disagrees with them or states something they don't like and spend days blindly attacking the video and anyone who doesn't immediately dismiss it.

So basically the haters club are free to reigns and being vocal, while S3 fans should mind their behaviour because they are the ones who makes a bad reputation for the community?

But if we aren't even free to say that we liked the game without people questioning our integrity, please...

If people don't join the community, it's because of these vocal people who continue to say "stay away from this game" while the community don't even fight back and says "let's discuss the content of this fine video" instead.

Sorry if it seems a little harsh, but someone must bring you all back to reality.

 

[hmjohnny]

It seems to me as though you’re allowing your own feelings for the game to cloud your view of this discussion.

If people discuss the flaws and inaccuracies in a video that is put together in an intentionally misleading way and seemingly designed to make the game look as bad as possible they are ‘suppressing criticism’. Making such a video is of course done in ‘good faith’ though.

You accuse some people on these forums of jumping to defend Shenmue 3 from all and every criticism, but it generally feels as though there are four or five people here who will defend pretty much any criticism or critic of the game no matter how disingenuous the criticism.

I’m sure these same people would be the first to tear down a positive video about Shenmue 3, especially if it presented its points in such a duplicitous fashion.

This thread has already gotten away from me and you've raised a lot of good points in your subsequent posts so I'll try and summarize my thoughts on those.

I don't think the video was put together in an intentionally misleading way. I really do believe that SEPW was a fan of Shenmue who was disappointed in S3. However, I will concede you made a number of good points in your later posts giving some examples of where he exaggerates or uses the worst possible examples to make his point. I did mentioned in my first post on this thread that I thought many of his points were nitpicky.

There may be those who are willing to defend all criticism but I've been critical of bad faith takes on Shenmue in the past having called out Jim Sterling or Yahtzee on their views. Aside from his previous video, he begins this video actually extolling the positives of the game. He also doesn't speak badly of either the fanbase or Suzuki throughout the video. At the end his tone genuinely felt to me like he was more saddened and disappointed with how the game turned out than vindictive of it. He even admitted playing the game twice which means he probably wanted to let cooler heads prevail than give his thoughts on his first impression or rush out to get clicks based on any hype following the release.

Don't get me wrong, just because I am defending the video does not mean I fully agree with all his points or conclusions. For example, the combat didn't bother me as much as it did him but I will still concede there are issues with it and that he raised several good points.

To be fair so have you regarding his video. You've fostered good discussion and raised good criticisms against SEPW. You're fully willing to acknowledge the faults, even if they don't personally bother you much, and you've been reasonable in looking at criticism. My concern is not with people like you but those who refuse to engage with criticism out of some unfounded fear that it will hurt Shenmue or their image of it.

And since he called my motivation in to question I'll state my motivation explicitly here: I think people in the community who jump to blind rage over the title of a youtube video make the Shenmue community look bad. People want to join a fun atmosphere of chilled out people who love what they love and don't care what anyone else says. People don't want to join a community of people who are filled with rage over a youtube video that disagrees with them or states something they don't like and spend days blindly attacking the video and anyone who doesn't immediately dismiss it.

Calling a popular youtuber names and a video that isn't clickbait clickbait just because you don't like the title isn't a good look. Really need to stress that the top videos on this guy's channel get 1m+ views and the biggest one has 6m. This Shenmue video he made likely won't even break 800k. Clickbait is also a bait and switch where you put something shocking in the title and then don't deliver (hence the bait part), and SEPW explains exactly how he feels in the video and why he feels that way.

Is the title shocking? Yes. But is it exactly how SEPW feels? Probably. Are people not allowed to express themselves fully anymore without it being considered clickbait? Should he have ran away from making the title of the video what he felt just because a few people would think it's clickbait? Honestly it sounds like a lot of Shenmue fans aren't clicking the video out of rage so that's pretty bad clickbait as it's not drawing in clicks outside of his subscribers. Maybe a more neutral title would have gotten him more views.

Edit: Oh and I know I'm replying to Spud but this is more a general statement, not asking the questions I ask of Spud, he's been very reasonable through all this even though he doesn't like the video's title or content. Spud is someone who makes our community look good along with all the other people who are actually debating the video's content instead of just it's title or legitimacy.

You have made several good posts supporting what I've been trying to say. Ignoring the criticism and banding together to defend everything about Shenmue in blind apologetics is counterproductive and makes the whole community look bad.

I also think too many people are getting caught up on the clickbaity title. Look at this video titled: Shenmue 3 - An Honest Critique by a Longtime Fan which came out a few months ago in comparison. He makes most of the same points as SEPW but sometimes with even weaker arguments. Would a video with this title have garnered the same backlash around here? Keep in mind this guy has a whopping 358 subscribers so I don't think he's saying these things to jump on some kind of hate train for the publicity. Yet again and again the same issues are raised about the game to varying degrees of severity but some are just willing to put their fingers in their ears and pretend not to hear it.

This is counterproductive to getting people to like these games. We should be pushing for Shenmue to be better. We should be acknowledging its faults and trying to show people what we like about the games instead of acting elitist about those that "just don't get it".

 

[spud1897]

So basically the haters club are free to reigns and being vocal, while S3 fans should mind their behaviour because they are the ones who makes a bad reputation for the community?

But if we aren't even free to say that we liked the game without people questioning our integrity, please...

If people don't join the community, it's because of these vocal people who continue to say "stay away from this game" while the community don't even fight back and says "let's discuss the content of this fine video" instead.

Sorry if it seems a little harsh, but someone must bring you all back to reality.

No I'm saying everyone must be mindful of how they come across. That's it.

 

[Suzaku]

No I'm saying everyone must be mindful of how they come across. That's it.

Of course I was talking about the whole shenmue community not just this forum (there isn't an haters club here as far as I know), since it's an issue that affects the whole fanbase.

 

[Vasid]

So basically the haters club are free to reigns and being vocal, while S3 fans should mind their behaviour because they are the ones who makes a bad reputation for the community?

But if we aren't even free to say that we liked the game without people questioning our integrity, please...

If people don't join the community, it's because of these vocal people who continue to say "stay away from this game" while the community don't even fight back and says "let's discuss the content of this fine video" instead.

Sorry if it seems a little harsh, but someone must bring you all back to reality.

I had you ignored but I guess I have to reply to your absurd strawman. No one ever said people couldn't support the game. I'm mearly asking the unhinged people who are mad at literally just the title and haven't even seen the video and aren't adding anything constructive to the debate to CALM DOWN. Take a deep breath Suzaku, this is a fan forum, calling anyone here the "haters club" is just absurd frankly. Again I've been posting on this site and showing my fandom for Shenmue since before you were even registered to this site.

Just like @Novyal you're taking the video and every argument made for it in bad faith pretending like everyone who disagrees with you or doesn't like the game is a "fake fan" (your own words) or is out to hurt the series. This is not the case and it comes off as the ravings of paranoid nuts. Maybe look at others with some faith, assume you're talking to Shenmue fans on the SHENMUE DOJO, maybe assume a guy who made a video sharing his love for the franchise just 1 year ago and now has made a video where he regrets his hype isn't a "fake fan" or doing it for clickbait.

You're the one not living in reality assuming everyone is out to hurt Shenmue, that there is somehow a cottage industry of hating Shenmue, and that only people you deem to be fans of Shenmue are fans.

By the way you still haven't watched the video yet you've spent days on a thread complaining about it and anyone defending it... Shenmue is about giving up the path of revenge buddy, not following it until the bloody end.

 

[Suzaku]

I had you ignored but I guess I have to reply to your absurd strawman.

very sad, I was right before about you being an hyprocrite, you act cool and mature and then hit the ignore button when someone disagree with you...
That's the kind of childish behaviour that hurts the community.
I'm now in a position when I cannot even reply to you since you ignored me.

But since I have respect for other people, I can tell you that I still read your post, and you couldn't be more wrong.