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NEW YU SUZUKI INTERVIEW WITH THE DOJO AND PRS LIVE! READ IT HERE!
Shenmue branding.
- Thread starter FRASIER
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At the end of the day it's just a logo it's not the game, but I just can't wrap my head around not using the original logo or a close variant like the re-release. That logo looks great and I haven't seen a single new fan have a problem reading it or whatever. If there is no legal issue then Ys Net and Deep Silver really should go back to that imo. The new logo just doesn't cut it.
Revan
Excuse me...gorgeous
The current one doesn’t. I’m referring to the very first papyrus logo used on the Kickstarter.
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- Shenmue II
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- the waiting game.
Not a huge fan of the golden version of the logo, but the flat white version is growing on me a fair bit actually.
The original logo would still be the best option, but this looks fine to me:
The original logo would still be the best option, but this looks fine to me:
Rakim
なんまいだー
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
Idk. I did not like the new logo at first, but I'm starting to get used to it.
You also have to think that with budget constraints and fan expectations they're trying to stick to the feel of the old games and not try too many new things in S3. For Yu Suzuki, someone who loves to try new things and keep moving forward, changing the logo might be one of the few things he can really do to satisfy has creative urges to venture out into the unknown. Let Yu have his logo dammit.
You also have to think that with budget constraints and fan expectations they're trying to stick to the feel of the old games and not try too many new things in S3. For Yu Suzuki, someone who loves to try new things and keep moving forward, changing the logo might be one of the few things he can really do to satisfy has creative urges to venture out into the unknown. Let Yu have his logo dammit.
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- Chicago
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- What's Shenmue
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- Shenmue ch1 Undub
Very good point, it definitely does look better when it isn't embossed or have any color. My only thought pertainint to some legality/license fees would be the logo font itself costs extra per month/however long and many times it is used during development. Could go back to the original logo for release; simply saving a few dollars for the past couple years with a different logo.Not a huge fan of the golden version of the logo, but the flat white version is growing on me a fair bit actually.
The original logo would still be the best option, but this looks fine to me:
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
You guys are also forgetting that Yu Suzuki has some pretty bizarre taste at times, especially when it comes to western stuff. Wasn't it in a dojo interview where one of the English VA for shenmue said that it was Suzuki that specifically requested they speak in such a bizarre way?
Mittens2317
Class A Cunt
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- Shenmue
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- Mittens2317
Aye, it's a bit shite, innit?
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
Pretty sure that's always been the case.
Lisle Wilkerson talking about the direction she received with playing Xiuying was the first thing that popped into my head but the most revealing account of what was going on with the voice acting and localisation came from Jeremy Blaustein. The original article (from 2011 or so) isn't hosted anymore but I still have the text saved, I'll pop a spoiler tag around it below.
Shenmue
Of all the games Blaustein has been involved with, it’s Shenmue which is likely to generate the most interest among fans – even more so than Metal Gear Solid.
As Blaustein explains, “It was a weird time. I think if you look up Shenmue you’ll see that it was localised by IMagic. I was one of three company owners at IMagic, and I’ve got interesting anecdotes. Shenmue was such a problematic project, you could write a whole book about how messed up things got. You know what the budget on that thing was? $70 million dollars I’m told. And I don’t know what its sales were like, but it didn’t even come out on hardware that sold well. So how much of a disaster was this? This is like the videogame equivalent of that famous western movie, Heaven’s Gate.”
“Suzuki was coming off of huge past successes, and he was the man. And so this was going be THE thing. And surrounding us at the initial meeting were, of course, people from Sega, but also all sorts of outsourcers: localisers and sound people and recording studio people. People to make this, and people to do that. And everyone wanted a piece of that $70 million, you know? And of course that’s like the worst thing you could do, is to start out a project saying we’ve got all this money, and then just keep throwing more money at it.”
“I’ll never forget the meeting for this, it was the oddest thing. I was at the meeting – the let’s kick it all off meeting. And what IMagic did for Shenmue was, we were hired to handle the voice acting... Now, of course with games there’s the localisation itself, and then there’s the voices. The localisation is what we’d normally do, along with the voices, but we didn’t get the initial localisation work.”
Blaustein was reluctant to give specifics, but speculation at the time was that Yu Suzuki gave the text translation to a family member, possibly his brother-in-law, who owned a translation company. This left the voice work to go to a separate company. Unfortunately there was the added burden that Suzuki insisted that all voice acting, including the English, had to be recorded in Japan.
“The reason we did it in Japan by the way, was because Mr Suzuki wanted access to it while it was being done. He probably thought that if he could go and quality control it himself it would be better. Or I dunno, maybe he just wanted to leave his desk and go see how things were going. It was done around his schedule. It wasn’t done because it was the best thing to have done. It wasn’t done because we didn’t have the money to do it in New York. It was simply done because that was his decision. Nobody that was doing that thought it was a good decision. And clearly it wasn’t. Add that to my regrets, that we could have done a great job. It’s like, if we had gone to New York or LA and did it, they’d all have been great actors. We could have had a great script and... Let me ask you and the readers, would Shenmue have done better if it’d had better actors, or wouldn’t it have made a difference?”
“I don’t remember how many characters were in that game, but it’s hundreds. And there simply weren’t enough English-speaking voice actors. In Japan you already don’t have the cream of the best actors, what you have are people who were models who turned into actors, and people who were teachers who turned into actors, or people who were actors and couldn’t hack it as actors in the West and so left to become actors in Japan – and those are the best actors in Japan. So the best ones you have are the ones who failed in America and went to Japan. So it was such a stupid proposition to do it there.”
“The auditions go ahead, we hire basically every single person that exists and calls themselves a voice actor. The people that are doing the translation are late, and I remember it was such a messed up situation, it was so bad that stuff was going directly from the translators, without being checked, faxed to the studio and having actors just read the stuff. That’s how slapdash it all became. And there were actors that had no place at all doing the acting. There was no time for direction – it was like, get it done! When you’re doing it right, like with Metal Gear Solid or something like that, you set up the situation – you’re not doing anything by the seat of your pants.”
“I didn’t direct it, but I’m sure the director was having one cut for everything: OK here’s a line, read it! OK, next. It wasn’t ‘let’s get the best performance for this line’, it was just a massively messed up situation, and the end results wound up being what they are. So, play the game, listen to it, and you’ll know exactly why it got that way.”
Of course Blaustein wasn’t at all happy with the actor situation, so in a desperate attempt to salvage the project and find talent who could fulfil their needs, he flew back to America to round up some voice actors and then fly them back to Japan specifically for the job – something which was unprecedented in the localisation industry.
“And here’s a thing about Shenmue that made it even more complicated, and I can’t recall why this was the case, but for some reason we were also looking for voice actors who would physically look like the characters. I think Suzuki was planning to do some kind of non-videogame media thing. Like there’s that guy Corey Marshall, who played Ryo. And Debora Rabbai too. I hired these people. I came back to America, right, and I found some unknowns and some knowns. There weren’t enough actors in Japan and it was the case that Mr Suzuki wanted a good looking, young unknown. Like an actor. Not even an actor, a young newbie... I don’t know what he was thinking, actually, because if you look at the page of actors on Shenmue Dojo, they’re all good looking people. And Deborah Rabbai, I remember interviewing her in America, she’d had a lot of experience working with animes. Look at these people, these are voice actors that were hired partially because of their looks. Doesn’t that seem strange to you?”
“The one thing you can do to make hiring a voice acting cast even more difficult, you can add this condition: they have to be good looking. So here we are with this ridiculous thing added on top of it. But we weren’t going to say no. So I went back to America, I put out advertisements and I got a couple of people. And the people I got were Deborah Rabbai, and certainly Corey Marshall. And he did martial arts, that’s one of the reasons why he got the job. So I wrote contracts and sent them back to Japan. Corey had never been to Japan, he’d never done acting. We were doing some weird stuff, and that’s just how weird a project Shenmue was. Nobody else was doing anything like that – flying actors from one country to another.”
Despite all the hard work that went into finding Corey, the end result was not without irony, as Blaustein notes. “Now, let me recap. We’ve done a worldwide search for this guy, we find a complete amateur, not hugely talented but good looking enough to be called good looking. He did martial arts so we could say he did them. He satisfied a lot of the checkmarks, and then they changed his voice electronically at the end of all this, to make him sound younger! Isn’t that ironic? Isn’t that hilarious, that after all that work they change his voice?”
“I’ve done a lot of these projects, and a lot of the times we’ve talked about my past work I’ve complained about how the budgets are low, and there isn’t enough money, and here’s a case where they made so many mistakes in the opposite direction. There was poor management and too much money thrown at it. It was rushed, and I know enough about games to know you’re unlikely to get a consistent product. You have bits of it that were translated well, but there were probably 20 translators touching it, would be my guess. And with that many translators, working on that many characters, with a story that diffuse, you’re going to have huge problems with consistency, huge problems with the story, huge problems with characters speaking.”
As Blaustein recollects, no amount of budget could save Shenmue. “Thinking that more money would solve the problem of doing it in Japan, was a mistake. I was not exaggerating when I said it could be an outstanding metaphor for the excesses that videogames reached. The last thing I’d say about it is this: its development is a fascinating story. It’s one of a kind. It may be much more of a disaster than even you know. Didn’t it deplete most of Sega’s finances? What a story!”
Of all the games Blaustein has been involved with, it’s Shenmue which is likely to generate the most interest among fans – even more so than Metal Gear Solid.
As Blaustein explains, “It was a weird time. I think if you look up Shenmue you’ll see that it was localised by IMagic. I was one of three company owners at IMagic, and I’ve got interesting anecdotes. Shenmue was such a problematic project, you could write a whole book about how messed up things got. You know what the budget on that thing was? $70 million dollars I’m told. And I don’t know what its sales were like, but it didn’t even come out on hardware that sold well. So how much of a disaster was this? This is like the videogame equivalent of that famous western movie, Heaven’s Gate.”
“Suzuki was coming off of huge past successes, and he was the man. And so this was going be THE thing. And surrounding us at the initial meeting were, of course, people from Sega, but also all sorts of outsourcers: localisers and sound people and recording studio people. People to make this, and people to do that. And everyone wanted a piece of that $70 million, you know? And of course that’s like the worst thing you could do, is to start out a project saying we’ve got all this money, and then just keep throwing more money at it.”
“I’ll never forget the meeting for this, it was the oddest thing. I was at the meeting – the let’s kick it all off meeting. And what IMagic did for Shenmue was, we were hired to handle the voice acting... Now, of course with games there’s the localisation itself, and then there’s the voices. The localisation is what we’d normally do, along with the voices, but we didn’t get the initial localisation work.”
Blaustein was reluctant to give specifics, but speculation at the time was that Yu Suzuki gave the text translation to a family member, possibly his brother-in-law, who owned a translation company. This left the voice work to go to a separate company. Unfortunately there was the added burden that Suzuki insisted that all voice acting, including the English, had to be recorded in Japan.
“The reason we did it in Japan by the way, was because Mr Suzuki wanted access to it while it was being done. He probably thought that if he could go and quality control it himself it would be better. Or I dunno, maybe he just wanted to leave his desk and go see how things were going. It was done around his schedule. It wasn’t done because it was the best thing to have done. It wasn’t done because we didn’t have the money to do it in New York. It was simply done because that was his decision. Nobody that was doing that thought it was a good decision. And clearly it wasn’t. Add that to my regrets, that we could have done a great job. It’s like, if we had gone to New York or LA and did it, they’d all have been great actors. We could have had a great script and... Let me ask you and the readers, would Shenmue have done better if it’d had better actors, or wouldn’t it have made a difference?”
“I don’t remember how many characters were in that game, but it’s hundreds. And there simply weren’t enough English-speaking voice actors. In Japan you already don’t have the cream of the best actors, what you have are people who were models who turned into actors, and people who were teachers who turned into actors, or people who were actors and couldn’t hack it as actors in the West and so left to become actors in Japan – and those are the best actors in Japan. So the best ones you have are the ones who failed in America and went to Japan. So it was such a stupid proposition to do it there.”
“The auditions go ahead, we hire basically every single person that exists and calls themselves a voice actor. The people that are doing the translation are late, and I remember it was such a messed up situation, it was so bad that stuff was going directly from the translators, without being checked, faxed to the studio and having actors just read the stuff. That’s how slapdash it all became. And there were actors that had no place at all doing the acting. There was no time for direction – it was like, get it done! When you’re doing it right, like with Metal Gear Solid or something like that, you set up the situation – you’re not doing anything by the seat of your pants.”
“I didn’t direct it, but I’m sure the director was having one cut for everything: OK here’s a line, read it! OK, next. It wasn’t ‘let’s get the best performance for this line’, it was just a massively messed up situation, and the end results wound up being what they are. So, play the game, listen to it, and you’ll know exactly why it got that way.”
Of course Blaustein wasn’t at all happy with the actor situation, so in a desperate attempt to salvage the project and find talent who could fulfil their needs, he flew back to America to round up some voice actors and then fly them back to Japan specifically for the job – something which was unprecedented in the localisation industry.
“And here’s a thing about Shenmue that made it even more complicated, and I can’t recall why this was the case, but for some reason we were also looking for voice actors who would physically look like the characters. I think Suzuki was planning to do some kind of non-videogame media thing. Like there’s that guy Corey Marshall, who played Ryo. And Debora Rabbai too. I hired these people. I came back to America, right, and I found some unknowns and some knowns. There weren’t enough actors in Japan and it was the case that Mr Suzuki wanted a good looking, young unknown. Like an actor. Not even an actor, a young newbie... I don’t know what he was thinking, actually, because if you look at the page of actors on Shenmue Dojo, they’re all good looking people. And Deborah Rabbai, I remember interviewing her in America, she’d had a lot of experience working with animes. Look at these people, these are voice actors that were hired partially because of their looks. Doesn’t that seem strange to you?”
“The one thing you can do to make hiring a voice acting cast even more difficult, you can add this condition: they have to be good looking. So here we are with this ridiculous thing added on top of it. But we weren’t going to say no. So I went back to America, I put out advertisements and I got a couple of people. And the people I got were Deborah Rabbai, and certainly Corey Marshall. And he did martial arts, that’s one of the reasons why he got the job. So I wrote contracts and sent them back to Japan. Corey had never been to Japan, he’d never done acting. We were doing some weird stuff, and that’s just how weird a project Shenmue was. Nobody else was doing anything like that – flying actors from one country to another.”
Despite all the hard work that went into finding Corey, the end result was not without irony, as Blaustein notes. “Now, let me recap. We’ve done a worldwide search for this guy, we find a complete amateur, not hugely talented but good looking enough to be called good looking. He did martial arts so we could say he did them. He satisfied a lot of the checkmarks, and then they changed his voice electronically at the end of all this, to make him sound younger! Isn’t that ironic? Isn’t that hilarious, that after all that work they change his voice?”
“I’ve done a lot of these projects, and a lot of the times we’ve talked about my past work I’ve complained about how the budgets are low, and there isn’t enough money, and here’s a case where they made so many mistakes in the opposite direction. There was poor management and too much money thrown at it. It was rushed, and I know enough about games to know you’re unlikely to get a consistent product. You have bits of it that were translated well, but there were probably 20 translators touching it, would be my guess. And with that many translators, working on that many characters, with a story that diffuse, you’re going to have huge problems with consistency, huge problems with the story, huge problems with characters speaking.”
As Blaustein recollects, no amount of budget could save Shenmue. “Thinking that more money would solve the problem of doing it in Japan, was a mistake. I was not exaggerating when I said it could be an outstanding metaphor for the excesses that videogames reached. The last thing I’d say about it is this: its development is a fascinating story. It’s one of a kind. It may be much more of a disaster than even you know. Didn’t it deplete most of Sega’s finances? What a story!”
Of particular interest is this excerpt near the end
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
The logo needs consistency.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
I think he has a lot of freedom within the framework of Shenmue to continue to develop new gameplay ideas.
He's described a scenario in Shenmue III that will be a siege situation with strategy elements.
The main problem I have with the new logo is that it looks like the work of someone who lacks confidence writing in Roman characters with the brush. In fact, Yu Suzuki said he was nervous about it and that's exactly what it looks like. As time has gone on, I've gotten more used to it. But I do hope that somehow we end up with something closer to the original logo.
THQ Nordic had another presentation yesterday: http://www.thqnordic-investors.com/app/uploads/2018/08/THQ-Nordic-AB-publ-Interim-report-2018-Q2.pdf
They are back to using the "proper" logo that matches the original Shenmue logo back in the Dreamcast/Xbox days. Also of small interest is that they use Shenmue I & II as one of their "selected upcoming releases". It is listed ahead of Sonic Mania Plus.
They are back to using the "proper" logo that matches the original Shenmue logo back in the Dreamcast/Xbox days. Also of small interest is that they use Shenmue I & II as one of their "selected upcoming releases". It is listed ahead of Sonic Mania Plus.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
pilman
A mind as clear as a polished mirror
You know, I have always wondered if perhaps this is why Ryo and Shenhua look very slightly different from their old look.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
I don't think it's sad, it's definitely eccentric but ulimately I think his peculiarity as a developer did far more good than harm, at least from my point of view as a Shenmue fan.
I'm finding it hard to articulate exactly what I mean.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2018
It is really interesting and I don't think it's a mistake or oversight either. I think this is a sign that the original logo is returning again. It really is a bizarre situation, but I think what happened this time (assuming the old logo is returning and it's not some weird error) is that someone higher up requested Yu reverts back to the original logo for brand consistency. Now that the original games are being re-released on modern consoles, it's confusing and nonsensical to be using alternative branding for the third entry.
That said, I actually quite like the flat black and white version Jibby posted above and it has made me view the logo in a new light.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2018
- Location
- United States
@24Nathan Oh thank goodness. Please let that be the final S3 logo!
The problem I have with the new logo, even the black and white one, is that the letters don't look well drawn enough. I don't like how the two e's look, and how they differ from each other. The logo really lacks the elegance and beauty of the original, imo.
Either way I'll be happy so long as S3 is good.
The problem I have with the new logo, even the black and white one, is that the letters don't look well drawn enough. I don't like how the two e's look, and how they differ from each other. The logo really lacks the elegance and beauty of the original, imo.
Either way I'll be happy so long as S3 is good.
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FRASIER
“I’m listening”
This makes me extremely happy...