Budget Is NOT An Excuse

[Dg1995]

No. What separates good open world games from bad open world games is their construction. Shenmue III is a mediocre open world game. And to be fair, it's not really open either considering backtracking isn't possible either.
More variety ? Shenmue III lacks variety in it's main quest.
Replay value ? Same thing here.

Hence why I believe instead of trying to tick boxes everywhere, they should've compromised on some open world aspects and focus on characters developpement, world building and story.

Shenmue 3 has great variety in main quest:
1.You have QTE mini game.
2.You have some parts where you have to make money.(Which you have more ways to do that compare to Shenmue 2)
3.Combat sections.
4.Training sections.
5.Asking for direction parts.
6.Some extra story mini games.(like that hide and seek mini game which was inspired from a quest in witcher 3 or that mini game of describing the fighting style of that guy.)
7.Exploration sections.(Opening drawer sections)
8.Story Dialogues and cutscenes.

Shenmue 2 didn't have more variety than 3.

3 also has more Replay value than 2.
1.A proper new game + mode.
2.Difficulty setting.(Which previous games lacked)
3.Much more mini games and optional quests compare to previous ones.

World building and story writing in open world games are not as important as gameplay and variety.
GTA games don't have masterpiece storylines, but they have a very great variety in gameplay. GTA is the king of open world genre because of the 1000 different things you can do in those games.(No open world game has managed to compete with it so far)

 

[24Nathan]

Of course it's oversimplified. Was the choice the following "So, do we have drawers or do we have a full fledged story ?"
Of course not. It's never that simple. But I cant shake off the feeling that the drawers + many other little neat things as a whole took time and budget that could've been better spent.

Or to look at the bigger picture, to me was the following choice in term of budget:
- Should we have a more linear (don't read it as closed, but smaller) Shenmue title, that focus on the mood, the setting and the characters
- Should we have a full Shenmue experience, with all the little neat things but at the cost of keeping a reasonable level on everything

It's not to say one is better than the other. It's to say I would've prefered, and I think many would've prefered the first option. And it's also true that many prefer the second option too.

As I said before, Shenmue III's main flaw is to be the sequel of Shenmue II, aka a fuckin masterpiece that ticks all the boxes and is nearly perfect at every of them: The content is huge. There's a huge lovely cast. The cutscene direction even today is amazing. And fuck. The content is MASSIVE. Wan Chai iwas fucking huge. And you tell me there's also Kowloon ? And when you think everything was ending perfectly after the whole Dou Niu thing, you're giving me that fuckin CD4 that is a masterpiece by itself ?

And I feel like Shenmue III was trying to take on everything. Heck, when you think of it, we were supposed to get Baisha at first. Trying to do everything at once is good if you can get another chance. But deep inside of me... I think that I would've been fine with only a deeper, more centered Bailu experience. No need to make it a 30 hours game. Make it a 15-20 hours game with side content. But make those 15-20 hours amazing.

I think that sometimes, it's important to not retain things from the past. In fact, I think that's what made Shenmue II such a masterpiece. It was a game that kept reinventing itself. It had no forklift. It had no Dobuita. It tried to do it's own thing. And everytime it tried new things. Heck, CD4 was ballsy as fuck. It was a glorified walk with Shenhua but it was a damn masterpiece.

As more times goes by, and the honeymoon period of being either overly joyed or overly hateful with the game passes, I think this will be the direction more reasonable people take that found fault with the game. Thank you for spelling it out how you did.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Absolutely. That is a great 'critical' post.

 

[It’sShenmue3ffs]

I actually thought the game was brilliant, and everything I could have reasonably hoped for considering it is a Kickstarter game. I loved every minute of it and it brought back so many good memories. I didn't want it to end. But clearly I am not in the majority.

 

[Dmitriy1]

You know this game had a third portion that was cut out due to BUDGET right? The story wasn't supposed to end this way. I hear all this bullshit how nothing meanigful was delivered no we ONLY learned why the mirrors were created, important background on Iwao and his training and relationship with Sunning Zhao, A use and purpose of the sword of seven stars ECT. This isn't even to mention this is 40% through the story or rising action ya know the part of the story SETTING UP for the fucking climax, it was pretty fucking clear to me this wasn't the title to reveal the conclusive elements of the entire fucking series. Of course Ryo spends time talking with Shenhua she is a primary protagonist, I myself am a bit disappointed with side characters but budget very much HAS to do with it, voice acting is expensive the more lines means the more acting. I'd rather have them focus on the more primary character than waste it on some side characters. And yet everyone complains about gameplay taking up the story, have you forgotten this is a goddamned video game? If you wanted pure story you should have been lobbying Yu to make a fucking move or TV show, but no Shenmue is a game it NEEDS A FUCKING GAME to be one....

Amen.

 

[Dmitriy1]

I actually thought the game was brilliant, and everything I could have reasonably hoped for considering it is a Kickstarter game. I loved every minute of it and it brought back so many good memories. I didn't want it to end. But clearly I am not in the majority.

You are I think, not on this forum, but from tons that just play during their little free time. I saw many positive responses in other places. Too many expectations were on this site. Too many anime fans are on here. For what it is, I still say it was a bit cooler than Shenmue 1, but had less gameplay differences than Shenmue 2. It brought back the fun factor to the story with QTEs just like S1. I loved it, every minute of it. Started to replay, but too soon. I definitely will though.

 

[Creward]

Shenmue 3 has great variety in main quest:
1.You have QTE mini game.
2.You have some parts where you have to make money.(Which you have more ways to do that compare to Shenmue 2)
3.Combat sections.
4.Training sections.
5.Asking for direction parts.
6.Some extra story mini games.(like that hide and seek mini game which was inspired from a quest in witcher 3 or that mini game of describing the fighting style of that guy.)
7.Exploration sections.(Opening drawer sections)
8.Story Dialogues and cutscenes.

Shenmue 2 didn't have more variety than 3.

3 also has more Replay value than 2.
1.A proper new game + mode.
2.Difficulty setting.(Which previous games lacked)
3.Much more mini games and optional quests compare to previous ones.

World building and story writing in open world games are not as important as gameplay and variety.
GTA games don't have masterpiece storylines, but they have a very great variety in gameplay. GTA is the king of open world genre because of the 1000 different things you can do in those games.(No open world game has managed to compete with it so far)

While all that is true and to me Shenmue history is not that important (after all is kinda a 80s revenge kung fu action film) and the how the history is presented is more important.
What I believe defined Shenmue was simulating a town/city life which IMHO none of the current open world games capture since, as you said, the world is just there to empower the player with all the activities even if those activities kinda break immersion or are not that realistic.

 

[Dehone]

Shenmue 3 has great variety in main quest:
1.You have QTE mini game.
2.You have some parts where you have to make money.(Which you have more ways to do that compare to Shenmue 2)
3.Combat sections.
4.Training sections.
5.Asking for direction parts.
6.Some extra story mini games.(like that hide and seek mini game which was inspired from a quest in witcher 3 or that mini game of describing the fighting style of that guy.)
7.Exploration sections.(Opening drawer sections)
8.Story Dialogues and cutscenes.

Shenmue 2 didn't have more variety than 3.

3 also has more Replay value than 2.
1.A proper new game + mode.
2.Difficulty setting.(Which previous games lacked)
3.Much more mini games and optional quests compare to previous ones.

World building and story writing in open world games are not as important as gameplay and variety.
GTA games don't have masterpiece storylines, but they have a very great variety in gameplay. GTA is the king of open world genre because of the 1000 different things you can do in those games.(No open world game has managed to compete with it so far)

Variety doesn't automatically equal better, especially if things are just tacked on or poorly executed(not saying everything in S3 was tacked on necessarily). And some things that add variety, while not bad, also aren't really worth mentioning. Given how QTEs are now common place and often criticized present day for their over usage, pointing out QTE mini games aren't exactly praise worthy. Same with exploration as far as opening drawers

One thing you're missing about GTA is the insane amount of likeable characters. Storyline aside, people will play the story because of the variety of likeable characters introduced and tons of quotables. From Big Smoke to Lamar to Kent Paul to Tommy to Maccer to Rosenberg to Tarino to Catalina to Trevor to Lance to Niko, etc. Even if people didnt do the side activities, lots of them played through the story just to see wha what character would do some crazy/funny stuff next.

 

[GhostTrick]

Shenmue 3 has great variety in main quest:
1.You have QTE mini game.
2.You have some parts where you have to make money.(Which you have more ways to do that compare to Shenmue 2)
3.Combat sections.
4.Training sections.
5.Asking for direction parts.
6.Some extra story mini games.(like that hide and seek mini game which was inspired from a quest in witcher 3 or that mini game of describing the fighting style of that guy.)
7.Exploration sections.(Opening drawer sections)
8.Story Dialogues and cutscenes.

Shenmue 2 didn't have more variety than 3.

3 also has more Replay value than 2.
1.A proper new game + mode.
2.Difficulty setting.(Which previous games lacked)
3.Much more mini games and optional quests compare to previous ones.

World building and story writing in open world games are not as important as gameplay and variety.
GTA games don't have masterpiece storylines, but they have a very great variety in gameplay. GTA is the king of open world genre because of the 1000 different things you can do in those games.(No open world game has managed to compete with it so far)

In term of structure, no, it didn't.
Shenmue 3's structure is flat and repetitive to the point the structure is the same in both Bailu and Niaowu.
- Thugs are wrecking a place. Search the place. Find the two thugs. The two thugs will lead you to their muscled boss.

The fact that you need to say there are mini games, combats, asking for directions and such (which, are basically Shenmue, it's like saying in a Mario game that you have variety because you can jump and that you can punch).

Shenmue 2 had far more variety and creativity in its main quest in term of structure.

 

[Dg1995]

In term of structure, no, it didn't.
Shenmue 3's structure is flat and repetitive to the point the structure is the same in both Bailu and Niaowu.
- Thugs are wrecking a place. Search the place. Find the two thugs. The two thugs will lead you to their muscled boss.

The fact that you need to say there are mini games, combats, asking for directions and such (which, are basically Shenmue, it's like saying in a Mario game that you have variety because you can jump and that you can punch).

Shenmue 2 had far more variety and creativity in its main quest in term of structure.

It's structure is somehow the same, but it was done on purpose. It was done in a way to build up for it's plot twist.

You go to fight that mascular guy(And then you expect to get another interrogation scene) only to find that they have captured Shenhua and the story goes in a different direction that you didn't expect . It was a good twist imo.

Also when we talk about variety in games, we talk about different things that you do in a game.

It's like saying Tomb Raider games have no variety because you are just Tomb Raiding.(Which is wrong since you have platforming , combat , exploration ,puzzles and booby traps in TR games which add a lot of variety to the game.)

 

[GhostTrick]

It's structure is somehow the same, but it was done on purpose. It was done in a way to build up for it's plot twist.

You go to fight that mascular guy(And then you expect to get another interrogation scene) only to find that they have captured Shenhua and the story goes in a different direction that you didn't expect . It was a good twist imo.

Also when we talk about variety in games, we talk about different things that you do in a game.

It's like saying Tomb Raider games have no variety because you are just Tomb Raiding.(Which is wrong since you have platforming , combat , exploration ,puzzles and booby traps in TR games which add a lot of variety to the game.)

A plot twist ? And a good one at that ? I'm gonna have to disagree here. That was no twist here.

But yeah, let's talk about variety. Let's talk about how Shenmue II first make you visit Wan Chai to search for Tao Lishao, to then meddling with the Heavens, to then move to Kowloon with its varied fight objectives, to the take on YHB featuring new gameplay ideas every floor.
Not only Shenmue II had a shiton more variety from a story perspective, it also did so in a gameplay and QTE perspective. Shenmue III doesn't even come close. And I'm not even tackling CD4 here.

 

[Heartbeats]

We can't rule out the possibility that Yu Suzuki is going to die before the next game is made

 

[spud1897]

A plot twist ? And a good one at that ? I'm gonna have to disagree here. That was no twist here.

But yeah, let's talk about variety. Let's talk about how Shenmue II first make you visit Wan Chai to search for Tao Lishao, to then meddling with the Heavens, to then move to Kowloon with its varied fight objectives, to the take on YHB featuring new gameplay ideas every floor.
Not only Shenmue II had a shiton more variety from a story perspective, it also did so in a gameplay and QTE perspective. Shenmue III doesn't even come close. And I'm not even tackling CD4 here.

I have to say overall I agree. While I'm definitely enjoying Shenmue III on the second play it does lack in the areas above.

I'll use Shenmue II as the example (minus Guilin). The main objective is to find Zhu. However throughout the game you undertake a series of other objective, be it training, book carrying, fighting, finding Ren etc. Within that you meet several characters that develop as the story goes along. Shenmue III for all of it's good points does not offer this on the same level. Does it make it a bad game (you didn't say it was btw this is just my comment) of course not but it's not as good as Shenmue II in this area. Shenmue II is the gold standard for the series imo and that's not perfect.

Gameplay wise I was happy with III, I do think budget played a part here. They had to keep it narrower given the costs involved. It felt free like the previous 2 entries. QTE's were OK if a little tough.

 

[Amir]

Despite the inclusion of New Game + mode I found it really hard to replay Shenmue III and gave up about twenty minutes in. Besides not being able to skip certain dialogue (and why on earth is the skip button, when it works, now X/Square instead of B/Circle?), I found myself not looking forward to anything. I can't be bothered fighting the generic muscle guys again, there were no cutscenes I was looking forward to...

Once the patch drops I will carry on for the sake of the Shenhua conversations and the phone calls now that I have the Backer card, but I'm much more likely to replay I & II. Even if Shenmue I doesn't advance the plot as much as II, there's still plenty of great moments: "Milk's perfect for a schoolboy" as in Heartbeats' profile pic, learning Double Blow from Yamagishi-san, Asia Travel Co. footchase and beatdown, all the scenes with Master Chen and Guizhang, race to the harbour, 70 man battle...

With II, I love airing out books, catching leaves, learning about the Four Wude, eerie meetings with Zhang, the banter with Ren, taking on the three fighters in epic fights, the heartpounding ascent of the Yellow Head Building, the near-orgasmic relief of unleashing Counter Elbow Assault against Dou Niu, and the serenity and mystique of Guilin.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

We can't rule out the possibility that Yu Suzuki is going to die before the next game is made

61 isn’t that old, dude.i mean any age is old enough to die, but still.

 

[GhostTrick]

I have to say overall I agree. While I'm definitely enjoying Shenmue III on the second play it does lack in the areas above.

I'll use Shenmue II as the example (minus Guilin). The main objective is to find Zhu. However throughout the game you undertake a series of other objective, be it training, book carrying, fighting, finding Ren etc. Within that you meet several characters that develop as the story goes along. Shenmue III for all of it's good points does not offer this on the same level. Does it make it a bad game (you didn't say it was btw this is just my comment) of course not but it's not as good as Shenmue II in this area. Shenmue II is the gold standard for the series imo and that's not perfect.

Gameplay wise I was happy with III, I do think budget played a part here. They had to keep it narrower given the costs involved. It felt free like the previous 2 entries. QTE's were OK if a little tough.

Now then again, I don't think it's fair to compare it with Shenmue II. I mean, the game isn't only the gold standard for the series but in term of gaming for me as a whole. So yeah, it's a big piece. But claiming that Shenmue III is as varied, or even more comes as wrong to me. I enjoyed my time with Shenmue III. And while I felt disappointed on many stuff, I cant be angry at it. And as I already developped before, I would've prefered a more contained, story focused game that is brillant on those matters. But I can also understand why some other people prefered what we got.

Despite the inclusion of New Game + mode I found it really hard to replay Shenmue III and gave up about twenty minutes in. Besides not being able to skip certain dialogue (and why on earth is the skip button, when it works, now X/Square instead of B/Circle?), I found myself not looking forward to anything. I can't be bothered fighting the generic muscle guys again, there were no cutscenes I was looking forward to...

Once the patch drops I will carry on for the sake of the Shenhua conversations and the phone calls now that I have the Backer card, but I'm much more likely to replay I & II. Even if Shenmue I doesn't advance the plot as much as II, there's still plenty of great moments: "Milk's perfect for a schoolboy" as in Heartbeats' profile pic, learning Double Blow from Yamagishi-san, Asia Travel Co. footchase and beatdown, all the scenes with Master Chen and Guizhang, race to the harbour, 70 man battle...

With II, I love airing out books, catching leaves, learning about the Four Wude, eerie meetings with Zhang, the banter with Ren, taking on the three fighters in epic fights, the heartpounding ascent of the Yellow Head Building, the near-orgasmic relief of unleashing Counter Elbow Assault against Dou Niu, and the serenity and mystique of Guilin.

That's exactly how I feel about the game. And also about how many friends feel about it. And while I discovered the serie more than 10 years ago, some of them just discovered it this year. While I enjoyed my time with 3, I don't feel like there are things I want to relive. There's not really any new character, save for maybe Shiling and that's purely on a design standpoint that I care to see again. When it comes to Shenmue III, I don't feel like I remember many meaningful sequences or characters.

When it comes to even Shenmue I which is slow af, I still have fond memories of those cutscenes with Ryo and Megumi's cat, because it was a decent character developpement. These were beautiful moments with a really nice cutscene direction. There is something magic coming out of this world and I cant shake off that feeling with Shenmue III of looking like Shenmue... but not being totally Shenmue.

 

[iknifaugood]

Shenmue 2 didn't have more variety than 3.

1. Yes it did.
2. Quality > qantity

World building and story writing in open world games are not as important as gameplay and variety.
GTA games don't have masterpiece storylines, but they have a very great variety in gameplay. GTA is the king of open world genre because of the 1000 different things you can do in those games.

By this logic Wario Ware should be the most popular game ever.

GTA is the king of open world games because it was the "first" game to be sold on the idea that you could "do anything" in a realistic setting, courted controversy for free marketing, and laid the blueprint for how open world games were to be designed. In fact, GTA has so cornered the market on open world realistic American city games that any game that tries to do it (ie: Saint's Row) is still labelled a GTA clone. They've also been able to maintain their success with high quality sequels that never really tried to milk the franchise, and they spend enough money to attain a level of scope and polish that basically no other studio can match.

To say that story and writing didn't play a part in that is also ridiculous; GTA was primarily a single player franchise for most of its life, its setting is basically core to its identity, and it launched the acting career of one of its protagonists. To say nothing of the fact that Rockstar Games has always been on the bleeding edge of storytelling in games in terms of production value. You'd have to ignore so much about the history of GTA and the people who made it to make a claim like that.

In fact the exact opposite appears to be true; open world games with little-to-no story (Saint's Row, Crackdown, Just Cause etc.) have a fraction of the sales of their more story-driven brethren (GTA, The Witcher, Horizon, Spider-Man etc.).

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

To say nothing of the fact that Rockstar Games has always been on the bleeding edge of storytelling in games in terms of production value. You'd have to ignore so much about the history of GTA and the people who made it to make a claim like that.

This has nothing to do with 'mue III, but.. that's not true; it took them until Vice City, basically (the 4th mainline game in the series) to BEGIN to get story right and it was the 6th game in the series. Then San Andreas REALLY defined their storytelling, "prowess," and it's been the same ever since.

So 7 games in the series before they got to where they were today, 21 games in their history before getting to that point and they were around for 17 years at that point as well.

I know I'm harping on the one sentence you wrote (lol), but it took a while for Rockstar to become, "cutting edge," in the story-telling department. Many forget that 1-2 were devoid of any cohesive, grandiose story and the side games did nothing to expand on that either. 3 started to turn the wheels and VC was another logical evolution.

 

[iknifaugood]

So 7 games in the series before they got to where they were today, 21 games in their history before getting to that point and they were around for 17 years at that point as well.

I was referring to what @Dg1995 said which was that "GTA is the king of open world genre" so I assumed he meant GTA3 and beyond. Obviously Rockstar/T2 pre-GTA3 is very different. Also, GTA3 had Michael Madsen, Joe Pantoliano, Frank Vincent etc. as part of the voice cast so the game's identity as "new york city crime movies the game" is pretty clear even if the writing/cutscenes weren't quite there yet.

GTA3 is supposed to make you think Goodfellas, Sopranos, Mean Streets etc., Vice City is basically just Scarface, and San Andreas is Boyz n the Hood, South Central, Menace 2 Society etc. And pretty much all their games since have had almost as many movie references as a Kojima game.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Do not disagree; 3 is my favourite of the 3D titles :) (but 2 is my all-time favourite and nothing will dethrone that).