Budget Is NOT An Excuse

[spud1897]

But is it an open world game ? I hanen't heard of it.

It's a RPG with some voice acting and from what little I can tell no motion capture, day night cycles etc. Its done in an anime style and the focus has been on story with the small budget they have. I can't find figures.

It's a good example of when something is focussed it can carry a good story and look good. All the reveiws I've read say it's very good.

What it isn't is a full 3d open world built by a team unfamiliar with the engine.

I've made this point before, I absolutely 100% believe that had Shenmue III been story focussed people would be kicking off about a lack of Shenmueness. Less mini-games etc. Shenmue III was in an unenviable position that it had to satisfy a very rabid fanbase and in the end did too much with too little that the overall story got lost a little. Hence why 3 feels like the concept for a Shenmue 4.

That's not to deny the flaws in Shenmue III but that's my reasoning behind it. At the end of the day while we're all fans most of us are not developers so anything in this topic is purely guess work.

 

[Dg1995]

I've made this point before, I absolutely 100% believe that had Shenmue III been story focussed people would be kicking off about a lack of Shenmueness. Less mini-games etc. Shenmue III was in an unenviable position that it had to satisfy a very rabid fanbase and in the end did too much with too little that the overall story got lost a little. Hence why 3 feels like the concept for a Shenmue 4.

Agree. I also feel that Yu cut the final chapter of shenmue 3 to save that for Shenmue 4.

 

[GhostTrick]

But is it an open world game ? I haven't heard of it.

Edit: Also does it have lots of mini games like Shenmue ? Or fully voiced dialogues ?

Well, it is a huge world indeed.
And it's also a full fledged 50 hours jrpg.
Fully voiced ? No. But still a huge script hence why it's not.

 

[GhostTrick]

It's a RPG with some voice acting and from what little I can tell no motion capture, day night cycles etc. Its done in an anime style and the focus has been on story with the small budget they have. I can't find figures.

It's a good example of when something is focussed it can carry a good story and look good. All the reveiws I've read say it's very good.

What it isn't is a full 3d open world built by a team unfamiliar with the engine.

I've made this point before, I absolutely 100% believe that had Shenmue III been story focussed people would be kicking off about a lack of Shenmueness. Less mini-games etc. Shenmue III was in an unenviable position that it had to satisfy a very rabid fanbase and in the end did too much with too little that the overall story got lost a little. Hence why 3 feels like the concept for a Shenmue 4.

That's not to deny the flaws in Shenmue III but that's my reasoning behind it. At the end of the day while we're all fans most of us are not developers so anything in this topic is purely guess work.

Honestly I would've taken a more story focused Shenmue game. In fact, I think Bailu as a setting lended itself pretty well for a different structure this time around.

But that's indeed the bet that is happening now: Most of the game system has been created. If they expand on it as soon as possible, it's a win win situation.

 

[spud1897]

Honestly I would've taken a more story focused Shenmue game. In fact, I think Bailu as a setting lended itself pretty well for a different structure this time around.

I have to say on my second playthrough now and I'm enjoying Bailu much more than the 1st play. There's something about it that I really like.

Niaowu was good on 1st play but I dunno Bailu might be my favourite section.

 

[Dg1995]

Am I the only one that managed to find Niaosun in that restaurant which is near that casino ?

When you talk to her, She tells Ryo that :"He always asks for directions." she sounded disappointed.(For some reason when you talk more to her, she will also repeat Iwao's dying words : "Keep your friends close ." Or something like that.)

It made me think that she tried to make Ryo fell in love with her by being nice to that kid in front of Ryo and giving a direction to Ryo. But this tactic didn't have any effect on Ryo.(Ryo was also emotionless when he saw her in her evil costume while Ren kinda enjoyed seeing her.)
So she decided to use her disguise to trick Shenhua and get her kidnapped instead of seducing Ryo.(Which resulted in her getting the pheonix mirror)
So, OP . Her disguise served a purpose other than hiding from the fans.

 

[Creward]

But is it an open world game ? I haven't heard of it.

Edit: Also does it have lots of mini games like Shenmue ? Or fully voiced dialogues ?

Nop, they are jrpgs. The second trilogy contain voice acting but just for the main story segments( like the yakuza series to compare it to another jrpg).

It is easier to make more fleshed NPC for the Kiseki series than Shenmue as in a standard jrpg fashion the NPC they talk about whatever and not just what Ryo asks for.
Maybe Ryo should be able to just gossip and not just be fixated about asking about the next story point and learn about the NPC in question?

 

[Dehone]

Honestly I would've taken a more story focused Shenmue game. In fact, I think Bailu as a setting lended itself pretty well for a different structure this time around.

But that's indeed the bet that is happening now: Most of the game system has been created. If they expand on it as soon as possible, it's a win win situation.

This. Pre e3 2p15, I had long been set on willing to accept a manga or even just a book so for the story to take a back seat in favor of 50 ball machine games, 9 arcade games, 500 buyable items and a temples dedicated solely to say thank you to the backers let me down

 

[Suzaku]

Also, about budget:
The Trails/Kiseki serie is a low budget one and yet its world building is MASSIVE with a huge cast and a shitload of NPCs with a lot of them having an on going life as the game progress.

Budget is an excuse for a lot of things. Writing and world building isn't one.

Too bad they have PS2 graphics, and this time for real.
Plus making a simple 80% textual jrpg is lot more simple than making a FREE, that's why Falcon can focus a lot on the story.

 

[GhostTrick]

Too bad they have PS2 graphics, and this time for real.
Plus making a simple 80% textual jrpg is lot more simple than making a FREE, that's why Falcon can focus a lot on the story.

Yup. Some developpers chosed to focus on opening drawers, mini games and collecting a lot of small 3D items. Others chosed to focus on their story and world building.
And while it's true that 80% of the dialogue is unvoiced... The script is also a shiton more massive than a Shenmue game.

 

[Dg1995]

Yup. Some developpers chosed to focus on opening drawers, mini games and collecting a lot of small 3D items. Others chosed to focus on their story and world building.
And while it's true that 80% of the dialogue is unvoiced... The script is also a shiton more massive than a Shenmue game.

Well, your criticism makes it sound like that you want Shenmue to be a RPG/JRPG genre game than an open world game.

Imo it is wrong to change the franchise's genre midway.

 

[GhostTrick]

Well, your criticism makes it sound like that you want Shenmue to be a RPG/JRPG genre game than an open world game.

Imo it is wrong to change the franchise's genre midway.

Never said it had to become one. What I said is that they should've made it a tiny bit more linear. Was the forklift necessary ? Was all the sidestuff necessary ? I feel like the game made compromises everywhere to have everything. In the end, you end up with a game that is decent but fails to be excellent at anything.

 

[Dg1995]

Never said it had to become one. What I said is that they should've made it a tiny bit more linear. Was the forklift necessary ? Was all the sidestuff necessary ? I feel like the game made compromises everywhere to have everything. In the end, you end up with a game that is decent but fails to be excellent at anything.

That is the main criticism that all open world games get. But open world games instead have:
-More variety.
-More replay value.

Side stuff were necessary. Because those stuff are what that separates good open world games from bad open world games.

 

[GhostTrick]

That is the main criticism that all open world games get. But open world games instead have:
-More variety.
-More replay value.

Side stuff were necessary. Because those stuff are what that separates good open world games from bad open world games.

No. What separates good open world games from bad open world games is their construction. Shenmue III is a mediocre open world game. And to be fair, it's not really open either considering backtracking isn't possible either.
More variety ? Shenmue III lacks variety in it's main quest.
Replay value ? Same thing here.

Hence why I believe instead of trying to tick boxes everywhere, they should've compromised on some open world aspects and focus on characters developpement, world building and story.

 

[Suzaku]

Yup. Some developpers chosed to focus on opening drawers, mini games and collecting a lot of small 3D items. Others chosed to focus on their story and world building.
And while it's true that 80% of the dialogue is unvoiced... The script is also a shiton more massive than a Shenmue game.

Script alone don't make a game.
Shenmue is about the experience, open drawers or just see clouds passing by before it rains, it's all part of that experience.

Cutting these just to have more Niao Sun on screen, will just result maybe in a longer story (not automatically better), but also would result in a worst esperience.

I'm glad Suzuki choose to make a full Shenmue experience, even it it takes more games to complete the story.

 

[Dehone]

Script alone don't make a game.
Shenmue is about the experience, open drawers or just see clouds passing by before it rains, it's all part of that experience.

Cutting these just to have more Niao Sun on screen, will just result maybe in a longer story (not automatically better), but also would result in a worst esperience.

I'm glad Suzuki choose to make a full Shenmue experience, even it it takes more games to complete the story.

I dont think limiting the number of drawers of all things to give a little more focus on Niao Sun would take away from the shenmue experience, especially when the majority of opening drawers results in some short sentence about a plate or scroll that doesn't add to the story. If removing or limiting the feature of opening drawers would make for a worse game, even if it is shenmue, then it wasn't that great to begin with. Yu Suzuki could likely make the same number if games even if he added just a little more info about Niao sun.

Also, I wouldn't consider S3 the full experience as once you get to Niaowu, you're limited to talking to stationary shop owners and the heads of dojos as opposed to anyone walking down the street.

The experience of opening drawers for the sake of immersion would do nothing to attract new fans, which we need to some extent so this game isnt a failure. Given how open world is now it's own genre, there are plenty of other immersive games that do things as simple as opening drawers a lot better(there are usually useful items inside).

Script is not the only important thing, but it's one if the most important. The things shenmue does are no longer groundbreaking so an over emphasis on opening drawers, changing weather, stamina system, talking to every NPC over story and character development can be a detriment.

 

[code l name]

I think many of us are overly simplifying game development to these binary choices of either we get to open drawers or we get more story.

It’s clear in most major releases the titles often doesn’t really come together until its final few months. With the way the title received additional funding and its scope being modified several times with delays, Suzuki and team were indeed in an unenviable position.

It doesn’t excuse all their design choices and lack of strong characterization nor repetition in the narrative but I think it does give us some insight on why corners had to be cut.

I think the hope most of us have is now the hard work of getting engine up and running and systems built is they can create a truly worthy sequel that elevates all these elements in potential Shenmue 4.

 

[24Nathan]

Finally, some decent discussion about what some do not like about III, other than just mud slinging.

I do agree with the sentiment that they tried to tick all of the boxes. While I enjoyed the game, and am having a lot of fun collecting things and trophy hunting, and just being in the world, I can see the viewpoint that they may have tried to do too much. But I also think they were at least a little obligated to due to the Kickstarter nature...you can tell a lot of time and resources went into things like the backer rewards, phone calls, and returning mechanics (forklifting, for example). In a perfect Shenmue world, fully funded and staffed, we'd have everything I - III have and then some, in addition to a fantastic, fully fledged story. But like others have said, whatever you think about Shenmue III, it does set up Shenmue IV fairly well.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think many of us are overly simplifying game development to these binary choices of either we get to open drawers or we get more story.

It’s clear in most major releases the titles often doesn’t really come together until its final few months. With the way the title received additional funding and its scope being modified several times with delays, Suzuki and team were indeed in an unenviable position.

It doesn’t excuse all their design choices and lack of strong characterization nor repetition in the narrative but I think it does give us some insight on why corners had to be cut.

I think the hope most of us have is now the hard work of getting engine up and running and systems built is they can create a truly worthy sequel that elevates all these elements in potential Shenmue 4.

Of course it's oversimplified. Was the choice the following "So, do we have drawers or do we have a full fledged story ?"
Of course not. It's never that simple. But I cant shake off the feeling that the drawers + many other little neat things as a whole took time and budget that could've been better spent.

Or to look at the bigger picture, to me was the following choice in term of budget:
- Should we have a more linear (don't read it as closed, but smaller) Shenmue title, that focus on the mood, the setting and the characters
- Should we have a full Shenmue experience, with all the little neat things but at the cost of keeping a reasonable level on everything

It's not to say one is better than the other. It's to say I would've prefered, and I think many would've prefered the first option. And it's also true that many prefer the second option too.

As I said before, Shenmue III's main flaw is to be the sequel of Shenmue II, aka a fuckin masterpiece that ticks all the boxes and is nearly perfect at every of them: The content is huge. There's a huge lovely cast. The cutscene direction even today is amazing. And fuck. The content is MASSIVE. Wan Chai iwas fucking huge. And you tell me there's also Kowloon ? And when you think everything was ending perfectly after the whole Dou Niu thing, you're giving me that fuckin CD4 that is a masterpiece by itself ?

And I feel like Shenmue III was trying to take on everything. Heck, when you think of it, we were supposed to get Baisha at first. Trying to do everything at once is good if you can get another chance. But deep inside of me... I think that I would've been fine with only a deeper, more centered Bailu experience. No need to make it a 30 hours game. Make it a 15-20 hours game with side content. But make those 15-20 hours amazing.

I think that sometimes, it's important to not retain things from the past. In fact, I think that's what made Shenmue II such a masterpiece. It was a game that kept reinventing itself. It had no forklift. It had no Dobuita. It tried to do it's own thing. And everytime it tried new things. Heck, CD4 was ballsy as fuck. It was a glorified walk with Shenhua but it was a damn masterpiece.

 

[Suzaku]

Don't forget that Yu Suzuki isn't your average modern game designer.
For example If he choose to include 100 shop stands, it's because it was reasonable.
If you look at shop stands, you'll notice that the 3D model for the stand it's always the same one, plus the items included on shelfs are the same items that you can collect (yes that's why he created 3000 items).

When you look at the whole Shenmue 3 there are a lots of wise choices, I think no one on this planet could've achieved an open world like this with a risible budget of 6 millions.