Shenmue IV Will Happen - Here's Why!

[GhostTrick]

Lots of posts since my last time here, I think Rydeen already said everything that I wanted to write :)

I enjoyed all the new posts, well apart for the accusation.
I'm sorry if I touched a delicate nerve, but I still think this is the only truth and the reactions leave me with even less doubts.
We aren't talking about a bad game here, the hate toward Shenmue 3 by some people around internet is totally exaggerated and gratuitous, and can only be explained with "unrealistic expectation not met".
If you have a better explanation for the strange ludicrous hate toward this game, you're free to tell us, I'm also genuinely curious.

My intention wasn't to offend those who have a different opinions of course, but to arrive at this point:

unless we address all the exaggerated hate that comes from the Shenmue community and spread everywhere, how can we fight for Shenmue 4?

And the first thing is to make haters realize that this kind of exaggerated, gratuitous and constant hate doesn't help in any way, it's not constructive criticism (this is mostly used as a shield), and it only hinders our chances to get Shenmue 4 and for many people to discover Shenmue 3.

I dont know, I feel like criticism has been fairly constructive and helped highlight issues most reviewers didn't talk about because they didn't care about the game.

If you were to listen to the reviews, you'd think Shenmue III's issue was bad visuals, the stamina, old UIs and animations.

What would you understand from that ?

"just upgrade the visuals ! Keep the same formula, they loved it !"

Also, then again, it's not about unrealistic expectations.

If I were to have unrealistic expectations, I would tell you: "Wow, the visuals are shit ! I expected visuals as good as most AAA games ! And have you seen those animations ??? And why are the maps so small ???".
All of my expectations was for the game to offer interesting characters, an interesting narrative structure and a good atmosphere.

Was that possible in a full Shenmue experience on a budget ? Maybe not. But then again, my expectations weren't to get a "full Shenmue experience". Based on the direction Shenmue II was taking with CD4, based on Yu Suzuki interviews during Kickstarter, I expected Shenmue III to be a game focusing on its character cast, world building and chara dev, but also to try new things, new narrative things with the Character Perspective System.

What we got in the end was a full Shenmue experience with no Shenmue soul. We got Baisha which was axed (I was sure it'd happened, I said so when we got the achievements leaks on Steam. And I was fine with that if it meant they were focusing on making the current areas good), we got Niaowu which was useless as a whole expect to offer a "Shenmue experience" that wasn't really interesting. (Even though I still think the city was stunningly good looking) and we got Bailu which was obviously heavily influenced by the wish to put classic Shenmue side activities like an arcade, gacha and dice/lucky hit and such, which made it less believable.

If anything, my initial expectations was to get a more narrative title set in Bailu, trying different things. Those aren't unrealistic. In fact, if anything, those were far more realistic than Yu Suzuki's expectations, which were to make 3 areas and one open world.

I regret his choice to focus on those side activities and open world which resulted in an average game. But I'm not here to say whenever it's a bad choice or a good choice. I'd say it had pros and cons whatever the choice was and is a choice that is wise, going forward, when it comes to establish game systems for the upcoming games.

But that was at the expense of Shenmue III. Whenever it was a good decision or not remains to be seen. But as far as I'm concerned, it's obvious that Shenmue III paid for it.


As for your explanation about the game """hate""", I'd say it's already been discussed multiple times:

Maybe Shenmue III isn't good.

 

[Sh3ppy]

Maybe Shenmue III isn't good.

Going in circles here because this has been said multiple times, but whether it's good or not is largely subjective. Hence the divide in opinion.

I tend to go along with others here. It's either going to end in IV (not ideal and will most definitely feel rushed, crammed and probably incomplete), or he's going to make IV and then V to conclude the series. If this whole pandemic hasn't derailed any progress that was already made, I strongly believe Shenmue IV was already being worked on in some capacity and had a very good chance of being released. Better than we have been led to believe anyway. What I don't think though, is that we'll ever see a graphic novel completing the series, or retelling the entire story.

Just circling back a bit, I do very much believe Yu is aware of the criticism and perceived shortcomings of III. So to keep using the veil of "constructive criticism" as a reason to continually hammer the game seems a bit disingenuous at this point. It's all been said. Multiple times. This is my opinion, is not meant to be inflammatory and nobody has to agree. Just my view.

 

[GhostTrick]

Going in circles here because this has been said multiple times, but whether it's good or not is largely subjective. Hence the divide in opinion.

I tend to go along with others here. It's either going to end in IV (not ideal and will most definitely feel rushed, crammed and probably incomplete), or he's going to make IV and then V to conclude the series. If this whole pandemic hasn't derailed any progress that was already made, I strongly believe Shenmue IV was already being worked on in some capacity and had a very good chance of being released. Better than we have been led to believe anyway. What I don't think though, is that we'll ever see a graphic novel completing the series, or retelling the entire story.

Just circling back a bit, I do very much believe Yu is aware of the criticism and perceived shortcomings of III. So to keep using the veil of "constructive criticism" as a reason to continually hammer the game seems a bit disingenuous at this point. It's all been said. Multiple times. This is my opinion, is not meant to be inflammatory and nobody has to agree. Just my view.

Of course it's largely subjective. But we have metrics to say that Shenmue III is a more divisive title among fans. Point being, I refute that it's a matter of a "great game that disappointed people with unrealistic expectations". Maybe for some people. But not a lot of people. And we're talking about Shenmue fans here.

If you were to judge Shenmue III as a regular title... it's difficult to recommend it based on quality. I mean, then again, there are multiple review agregates and the game never landed in the "good" category. Not in the bad either, mind you. But not being a good game doesn't mean being a bad game either.

As for the criticism and perceived shortcomings of Shenmue III, I don't know. If Yu is basing that on the reviews, then I'd say those reviews are pretty clueless about what works and what doesn't work in Shenmue III.

 

[spud1897]

Of course it's largely subjective. But we have metrics to say that Shenmue III is a more divisive title among fans. Point being, I refute that it's a matter of a "great game that disappointed people with unrealistic expectations". Maybe for some people. But not a lot of people. And we're talking about Shenmue fans here.

If you were to judge Shenmue III as a regular title... it's difficult to recommend it based on quality. I mean, then again, there are multiple review agregates and the game never landed in the "good" category. Not in the bad either, mind you. But not being a good game doesn't mean being a bad game either.

As for the criticism and perceived shortcomings of Shenmue III, I don't know. If Yu is basing that on the reviews, then I'd say those reviews are pretty clueless about what works and what doesn't work in Shenmue III.

I think there's a generalization here and across some community groups as to how the game was received. All the people who have been vocal in their tastes/expectations etc not being met have cited mostly the same bits and pieces, character building, story, grinding and to a lesser extent the fighting system. But being active across most community channels it is always the same names bringing up those points time after time. They don't represent the wider fan-base and we're only but a snippet of that, even if it is a niche game. Wider social media responses have been generally good, even Embracer said themselves the game pleased the fans. Now whether that's based off of Metacritic or not I've not a clue.

It is subjective as has rightly been said and I'd agree that the great game v expectations argument you make is valid. However I would argue that it is a solid game that didn't build the heights of the first 2 games. Personal opinion there. Whatever way you look at it people have/had expectations, you did around the character building and story (fair enough btw), some did around the fighting systems, games etc. Point being that the game meets one persons expectations may not meet another persons. Now I'd concede that the vocalised/repetitive points being made may not have been as vocal had the game gone down the story route more than the core systems route but I do expect that you would have had a vocal group saying Shenmue has lost it's soul (melodramatic on my part maybe) because it lacks the FREE stuff of the first two games. The only way it would have satisfied everyone was to have been able to replicate the first two games which I don't think was possible on what they had, try as they might. Certainly not consistently anyway.

Baisha being cut was something we'd been discussing as staff since Feb 2019, way before the achievements list came out. Pure fact of it was that there had been no promotional material for it and at all events all files pointed towards Niawou and Bailu, nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of the criticisms I hope Yu Suzuki doesn't read most of those reviews, as you say the bang on about dated visuals, animations etc. Pointless given you can tell a good story regardless of AAA visuals. I'd want the core elements of Shenmue III built on for a Shenmue IV, with the focus on the story. Whether that can be delivered on what could be a lesser budget remains to be seen. Core work is there and I do think some pre-production work has already taken place for Shenmue 4. Hell Baisha itself is likely in some Alpha form in Shenmue IV. The questions remain over how it will be funded, who will fund it if at all and what direction Yu Suzuki chooses to go in.

 

[iknifaugood]

So to keep using the veil of "constructive criticism" as a reason to continually hammer the game seems a bit disingenuous at this point. It's all been said. Multiple times. This is my opinion, is not meant to be inflammatory and nobody has to agree. Just my view.

I think there's a big difference between the attitude you're displaying and the attitude that says the only reason people don't like S3 is because expectations were too high or they didn't understand the Kubrickian depths of the subtext. Like, how presumptuous is that? I think criticism being as constant as it is is a good thing. It means people care about Shenmue and want it to be better. If it were truly mean spirited where people were making fun of Suzuki or the fanbase or suggesting that Shenmue was always bad, then that's a different thing. I get not wanting the negativity, but on the flip side, for those of us who didn't like the story, to see people claiming that Niao Sun is a good or well developed character, or that the "twist" revealing her was well-executed are as repetitive and disingenuous to us.

(EDIT) Take The Last Jedi for instance. There's a big difference between not liking the movie and criticizing it (where I think we are with S3), and the toxic behavior of harassing Rian Johnson and Kelly Marie Tran and conspiracy theorizing about political agendas and other nonsense (where I don't think even the most dickish S3 hater is).

I tend to go along with others here. It's either going to end in IV (not ideal and will most definitely feel rushed, crammed and probably incomplete), or he's going to make IV and then V to conclude the series. If this whole pandemic hasn't derailed any progress that was already made, I strongly believe Shenmue IV was already being worked on in some capacity and had a very good chance of being released. Better than we have been led to believe anyway. What I don't think though, is that we'll ever see a graphic novel completing the series, or retelling the entire story.

I think it's pretty safe to rule out S5 unless they adopt a model where they release smaller installments more frequently (and somehow convince a publisher that that will be profitable). I doubt S4 was being worked on in any meaningful way, maybe the early planning/pre-production stage, but certainly nothing involving a big team. I also highly doubt we'll see Shenmue continue in a different medium considering Suzuki didn't take that route in the past 20 years and, as far as I know, has never expressed any desire to.

Now I'd concede that the vocalised/repetitive points being made may not have been as vocal had the game gone down the story route more than the core systems route but I do expect that you would have had a vocal group saying Shenmue has lost it's soul (melodramatic on my part maybe) because it lacks the FREE stuff of the first two games. The only way it would have satisfied everyone was to have been able to replicate the first two games which I don't think was possible on what they had, try as they might.

This is the only point I will not budge on. If you had to choose between focusing on the story and focusing on the FREE stuff, you're wrong for wanting the FREE stuff. The only reason to make Shenmue 3 and the reason the KS was successful enough to make the damn game in the first place was to continue that story from that cliffhanger ending with those characters. I can almost guarantee that if Suzuki started a KS with the promise of another FREE game with a new IP, he wouldn't have even met his funding goal. That being said, if we got an amazing story with S3 with memorable characters, moments, and good pacing, I don't actually think people would be as vocal about the lack of FREE stuff. "Man that castle section was even better than the Yellowhead building and Niao Sun is the best villain in the entire series, but I didn't get to play enough minigames! 0/10".

 

[Suzaku]

"FREE" is not another word for "minigames"...
If we got more story at the expense of the Shenmue experience, that would be the real failure.

Also you forgot that this is still a kickstarter project, even by sacrificing the open world aspects (that arrived only thanks to Deep Silver additional fundings), we would have never received something like 5-10 hours additional story content full of cutscenes etc.. like you guys wanted.
So it's a lost cause.
In the end we would only had a fake shenmue game similar to a Dontnod or a Telltale game probably, and many would had still complained about the lack of story content, a lose-lose situation for everyone.

I think we got the best balance possible between game and story, what some of you wanted was clearly a fake Shenmue game with just the same characters and story.
With this logic Shenmue could even become a racing game, as long it has story progression...

 

[mjqjazzbar]

"FREE" is not another word for "minigames"...
If we got more story at the expense of the Shenmue experience, that would be the real failure.

Also you forgot that this is still a kickstarter project, even by sacrificing the open world aspects (that arrived only thanks to Deep Silver additional fundings), we would have never received something like 5-10 hours additional story content full of cutscenes etc.. like you guys wanted.
So it's a lost cause.
In the end we would only had a fake shenmue game similar to a Dontnod or a Telltale game probably, and many would had still complained about the lack of story content, a lose-lose situation for everyone.

I think we got the best balance possible between game and story, what some of you wanted was clearly a fake Shenmue game with just the same characters and story.
With this logic Shenmue could even become a racing game, as long it has story progression...

This is a really condescending post. I understand wanting to defend the game and the franchise, but you're coming across as a gatekeeper. Many of us played the first two games the day they came out, so we are completely aware of what the series is and isn't. There are an awful lot of disappointed fans--and an awful lot of non-disappointed fans--out there, so it's kind of weak to accuse those people of not understanding Shenmue or wanting a fake Shenmue game. Is it possible expectations have changed with 20 years of advancement in gaming? I don't think it's unfair to expect Shenmue to keep up in some respects. We've all tussled over the story and characters ad nauseam at this point, so I won't get into that, but I don't think expecting substantial plot development from Shenmue 3 after living with Shenmue 2's cliffhanger ending for 20 years is asking too much.

 

[spud1897]

"FREE" is not another word for "minigames"...
If we got more story at the expense of the Shenmue experience, that would be the real failure.

Also you forgot that this is still a kickstarter project, even by sacrificing the open world aspects (that arrived only thanks to Deep Silver additional fundings), we would have never received something like 5-10 hours additional story content full of cutscenes etc.. like you guys wanted.
So it's a lost cause.
In the end we would only had a fake shenmue game similar to a Dontnod or a Telltale game probably, and many would had still complained about the lack of story content, a lose-lose situation for everyone.

I think we got the best balance possible between game and story, what some of you wanted was clearly a fake Shenmue game with just the same characters and story.
With this logic Shenmue could even become a racing game, as long it has story progression...

I dont think thats fair saying people wanted a fake Shenmue game. As I said in my wall of text above Shenmue is an experience unique to each individual.

By all means defend the game, I'm in the camp of liking it, but calling others view a fake Shenmue is just going to wind people up and comes off as disrespectful. Something that I'm trying to stop on both sides of this discussion

 

[Suzaku]

I dont think thats fair saying people wanted a fake Shenmue game. As I said in my wall of text above Shenmue is an experience unique to each individual.

By all means defend the game, I'm in the camp of liking it, but calling others view a fake Shenmue is just going to wind people up and comes off as disrespectful. Something that I'm trying to stop on both sides of this discussion

Each individual can like Shenmue for different reasons, we you can't lost sight of what Shenmue really is, especially as fans.
Shenmue is unique for the FREE, and that's the reason why we are still here after 20 years, the story was just one of the many tools for the "FREE".
I undertand that story is dear to many (Shenmue is also one of my favourite worlds, and not just in videogames), but when it become the sole focus at the espense of eveything else, it means that some fans vision has become distorted.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think there's a big difference between the attitude you're displaying and the attitude that says the only reason people don't like S3 is because expectations were too high or they didn't understand the Kubrickian depths of the subtext. Like, how presumptuous is that? I think criticism being as constant as it is is a good thing. It means people care about Shenmue and want it to be better. If it were truly mean spirited where people were making fun of Suzuki or the fanbase or suggesting that Shenmue was always bad, then that's a different thing. I get not wanting the negativity, but on the flip side, for those of us who didn't like the story, to see people claiming that Niao Sun is a good or well developed character, or that the "twist" revealing her was well-executed are as repetitive and disingenuous to us.

(EDIT) Take The Last Jedi for instance. There's a big difference between not liking the movie and criticizing it (where I think we are with S3), and the toxic behavior of harassing Rian Johnson and Kelly Marie Tran and conspiracy theorizing about political agendas and other nonsense (where I don't think even the most dickish S3 hater is).


I think it's pretty safe to rule out S5 unless they adopt a model where they release smaller installments more frequently (and somehow convince a publisher that that will be profitable). I doubt S4 was being worked on in any meaningful way, maybe the early planning/pre-production stage, but certainly nothing involving a big team. I also highly doubt we'll see Shenmue continue in a different medium considering Suzuki didn't take that route in the past 20 years and, as far as I know, has never expressed any desire to.


This is the only point I will not budge on. If you had to choose between focusing on the story and focusing on the FREE stuff, you're wrong for wanting the FREE stuff. The only reason to make Shenmue 3 and the reason the KS was successful enough to make the damn game in the first place was to continue that story from that cliffhanger ending with those characters. I can almost guarantee that if Suzuki started a KS with the promise of another FREE game with a new IP, he wouldn't have even met his funding goal. That being said, if we got an amazing story with S3 with memorable characters, moments, and good pacing, I don't actually think people would be as vocal about the lack of FREE stuff. "Man that castle section was even better than the Yellowhead building and Niao Sun is the best villain in the entire series, but I didn't get to play enough minigames! 0/10".

Funny thing is how in the Kickstarter announcement, Yu Suzuki emphasized on the "story" and how Shenmue III would be the story we've been waiting for.

 

[spud1897]

Each individual can like Shenmue for different reasons, we you can't lost sight of what Shenmue really is, especially as fans.
Shenmue is unique for the FREE, and that's the reason why we are still here after 20 years, the story was just one of the many tools for the "FREE".
I undertand that story is dear to many (Shenmue is also one of my favourite worlds, and not just in videogames), but when it become the sole focus at the espense of eveything else, it means that some fans vision has become distorted.

Visions change all the time though. Especially with time.

 

[GhostTrick]

"FREE" is not another word for "minigames"...
If we got more story at the expense of the Shenmue experience, that would be the real failure.

Also you forgot that this is still a kickstarter project, even by sacrificing the open world aspects (that arrived only thanks to Deep Silver additional fundings), we would have never received something like 5-10 hours additional story content full of cutscenes etc.. like you guys wanted.
So it's a lost cause.
In the end we would only had a fake shenmue game similar to a Dontnod or a Telltale game probably, and many would had still complained about the lack of story content, a lose-lose situation for everyone.

I think we got the best balance possible between game and story, what some of you wanted was clearly a fake Shenmue game with just the same characters and story.
With this logic Shenmue could even become a racing game, as long it has story progression...

I'd say a Shenmue game with no interesting characters nor without a meaningful story developpement is also a fake Shenmue.
But if we're here to pretend that people waited 17 years to play Lucky Hit, Forklift and opening drawers and not for the story, yeah, I call that preposterous.

Because let's be real, people even said years ago that they'd even be willing to see the rest of the story as a book or even a manga. At the expense of a game. I know, gameplay is also important but I think we should be honest with ourselves. Even if the experience is different from a person to another, I don't think I'm saying something crazy when I say the main reason people wanted 3 to come back was... the story.

 

[spud1897]

Let's stop throwing around the BS remark. Each person has a different take on what the game is to them.

You don't have to like it but at least be courteous enough to respect it by not calling is BS.

 

[iknifaugood]

"FREE" is not another word for "minigames"...
If we got more story at the expense of the Shenmue experience, that would be the real failure.

Explain to me how FREE is meaningfully different from an RPG and how losing the (expensive) luxuries would result in a worse game.

Also you forgot that this is still a kickstarter project, even by sacrificing the open world aspects (that arrived only thanks to Deep Silver additional fundings), we would have never received something like 5-10 hours additional story content full of cutscenes etc.. like you guys wanted.
So it's a lost cause.
In the end we would only had a fake shenmue game similar to a Dontnod or a Telltale game probably, and many would had still complained about the lack of story content, a lose-lose situation for everyone.

So until DS got involved Shenmue 3 was... what, exactly? What is Niaowu if not a collection of minigames and side activities? Most of the main quest is designed around grinding for money and moves, so those had to have been implemented early on. What you're saying is that S3 is the best it could possibly have been, and the best we can hope for which, if true, will cause a chunk of the already small fanbase to abandon the series outright. I have no desire to play another 25+ hour game where maybe 5 of those hours is spent progressing the story or developing the characters.

 

[GhostTrick]

Explain to me how FREE is meaningfully different from an RPG and how losing the (expensive) luxuries would result in a worse game.


So until DS got involved Shenmue 3 was... what, exactly? What is Niaowu if not a collection of minigames and side activities? Most of the main quest is designed around grinding for money and moves, so those had to have been implemented early on. What you're saying is that S3 is the best it could possibly have been, and the best we can hope for which, if true, will cause a chunk of the already small fanbase to abandon the series outright. I have no desire to play another 25+ hour game where maybe 5 of those hours is spent progressing the story or developing the characters.

Well, I used to think the same but I remember @LemonHaze making a pretty convincing post about that and how specifically Shenmue I and II took multiple parameters into account.

Even though when it comes to 3, I don't know if those elements remains. In any case, the FREE system today makes me think more of a traditionnal 3rd person game with a 1st person view locking on point of interests.

 

[Suzaku]

Visions change all the time though. Especially with time.

but that's not a game fault.
during 20 years people can changes a lot, tastes changes and so on

What is sure is that Shenmue 3 was always meant to be a more introspetcive game, so lots of people would be disappointend even with a 2003 Shenmue 3, coming from Shenmue 2 with all the blazing action.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

We have no idea what we would've thought of Shenmue 3 as originally planned. Very little, aside from a few lines in interviews, has been discussed. The chances are high the game would've been developed by a much bigger, more experienced team with access to much more money, so that alone would've made a huge difference.

 

[Suzaku]

I'd say a Shenmue game with no interesting characters nor without a meaningful story developpement is also a fake Shenmue.
But if we're here to pretend that people waited 17 years to play Lucky Hit, Forklift and opening drawers and not for the story, yeah, I call that preposterous.

Because let's be real, people even said years ago that they'd even be willing to see the rest of the story as a book or even a manga. At the expense of a game. I know, gameplay is also important but I think we should be honest with ourselves. Even if the experience is different from a person to another, I don't think I'm saying something crazy when I say the main reason people wanted 3 to come back was... the story.

first thing Shenmue 3 has a meaningful story development.
we can also stop with this broken record about "S3 has no story", because it's not the truth.

That said, I waited 20 years for a real Shenmue, that means a FREE experience, continuation of story etc. the full package.
I was always adverse to the idea to make Shenmue ending as a book or manga, it's a nonsense, if I want a manga I read a good manga then.
From Shenmue I want other things.

 

[Suzaku]

Explain to me how FREE is meaningfully different from an RPG and how losing the (expensive) luxuries would result in a worse game.

we can already stop here, call those "luxuries" means only that we have a totally different vision about Shenmue.
No need to enbark in a argument that gets nowhere.

So until DS got involved Shenmue 3 was... what, exactly? What is Niaowu if not a collection of minigames and side activities? Most of the main quest is designed around grinding for money and moves, so those had to have been implemented early on. What you're saying is that S3 is the best it could possibly have been, and the best we can hope for which, if true, will cause a chunk of the already small fanbase to abandon the series outright. I have no desire to play another 25+ hour game where maybe 5 of those hours is spent progressing the story or developing the characters.

It's the best we could have as a kickstarter project.
To have a Shenmue 3 without compromises, we should live in a different timeline when Sega won and we had Dreamcast 2, but unfortunately that's not the case and it's useless to continue to whine about it.

Then I 'm afraid Shenmue is not for you.

 

[GhostTrick]

first thing Shenmue 3 has a meaningful story development.
we can also stop with this broken record about "S3 has no story", because it's not the truth.

That said, I waited 20 years for a real Shenmue, that means a FREE experience, continuation of story etc. the full package.
I was always adverse to the idea to make Shenmue ending as a book or manga, it's a nonsense, if I want a manga I read a good manga then.
From Shenmue I want other things.

Well, we didn't get the full package. I didn't say Shenmue 3 has no story. I said it doesn't have a meaningful one, which encompass decent writing, character developpement and such.

Which means, according to you, we got a fake Shenmue (going by your words here).