Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[spud1897]

Yu said we'd get answers on the poem/prophecy and the tree in 3.

... I'm still waiting.

I'm sure you can wait a bit longer.

 

[Rydeen]

I would say with almost 99% certainty that this is not true of Niaowu simply because it's impractical to make games like that anymore given the advances in technology. S1 and 2 were basically 100% handcrafted experiences; no one does that anymore because it's too time consuming, there are better methods, and, as you point out, those are the kinds of details that are lost on most players. It's just not worth it.

Well, I can say with 100% certainty that Suzuki gave the other writers all of the NPCs' background data to inform the NPC dialogue that they wrote, unless he just lied about that. These were already in place, potentially from previous development. One of the shopkeeper designs in Niaowu is actually even recycled from Shenmue II. Some of the NPCs that couldn't be interacted with in Niaowu were pretty clearly some of the Bailu NPCs in disguise, and there probably were a handful of new NPCs, but did you notice that everything had flavor text? I feel fairly confident that even original NPCs for the game would have been given background information.

As far as I can tell the criterion is "best simulation of life", which is pretty broad and you're choosing to narrow to "named NPCs" for some reason.

I don't think you've kept up with this line of discussion, because you're conflating arguments here. At any rate, I think I'd probably focus on people, their dwellings, and the essence of their lives, over vehicles, to represent life. I'm also pretty sure that no one was actually saying "best simulation of life," but "best game that simulates a living world," as in, simulates what it feels like to interact with a world that people physically inhabit outside of the purview of the player character. I just don't think you will ever get it, and that's all right, but some people are looking to Shenmue for that sense of interacting with a game world that feels like it could physically exist, beyond just the trappings of simulated reality.

This is what I'm talking about. We all think Shenmue is special, obviously, but that doesn't mean that no game has surpassed it. It's such an elitist worldview as if no game could come close to what Shenmue did and everything that tries is just superficially emulating it. As if no other game has any attention to detail and they're all made by a bunch of hacks. That's just not how it is. AAA gaming today is a fucking miracle; every time I look at a video of Uncharted or Spider-Man PS4, my inner 10 year old creams his jeans. And Shenmue was basically the first ultra budget AAA game; it paved the way for the kinds of graphics and spectacles we currently enjoy.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way; As if Shenmue doing something not represented in modern gaming necessarily makes it superior, which doesn't have to be the case. In fact, it's not really about it being a competition, unless you're focused on sales. I personally feel GTA3 and Vice City did much more to inform the current state of AAA games, even if bits and pieces of Shenmue's legacy can be felt at times as well. We fundamentally see modern games differently, though. For me, most modern games are sterilized by a corporatism that demands soulless, spotless products to be shoveled out en masse. Shenmue was essentially the last gasp of a company that regularly put everything they had into forward thinking, eclectic, risky ideas. They were an R&D facility first, with some absolutely brilliant minds, but weren't adequately rewarded for their free spirit, and the greater company didn't have the business acumen to make up for it. Ideas lost, the profitability of the lowest common denominator won, and the rest is, as they say, history. I would just really enjoy it if one of the last bastions of the old world could still continue to exist in a similar form after it was resurrected from its grave. (It's nice that things like GRIS can exist in a niche, anyway.)

If Yu says the story will move forward, you can be pretty sure of it. It's rather the obvious things he doesn't mention we can be concerned about. Suppose Yu doesn't talk about NPCs, you never know they are going to be there eventually.

He did actually say in a pre-release interview not to expect too much in terms of the cast of new characters.

 

[SMDzero]

Yu said we'd get answers on the poem/prophecy and the tree in 3.

... I'm still waiting.

Maybe the meaning of the poem IS actually revealed in Shenmue 3.

S3 reveals the Dragon is the Emperor and the Pheonix is the Empress of the last Qing Dynasty who fought over the hidden power of the mirrors.

Now, Lan Di is the Dragon and Niao Sun is the Pheonix basically they are fighting the same war over the mirrors, continuing the cycle of pain.

It is Ryo and Shenhua's destiny to break the cycle.

 

[spud1897]

On the whole superfan thing as to whether they had an influence it might be better to ask them.

As I understand it Koralik did meet Yu at E3 in 2019 and play the demo but beyond that I've no idea. He would have to speak for himself but I'm also sure Deep Silver didn't reach out to him when the marketing started. Which is odd as he is a recognised youtuber with a fanbase. He mentioned it in one of his videos when the game was delayed I think. I know the community groups did get asked to do some bits but again it was very minimal.

Reiner, again you'd need to ask him, but as I understand it barring a trip to or two to Monaco and also speaking to Corey regularly I'm not sure there was much influence there either. Again this is based on my understanding and could be wide of the mark.

The community groups (as seen by ther various interviews over the years) seem to have had more access to Yu Suzuki over the development and also the documentary crew.

Anyway this is a derailer lol. But hope it helps a little.

 

[Rydeen]

Those things should have been in Shenmue 3. One of the main defenses on this forum regarding S3 is that it's an in-between chapter and the focus is on getting to know Shenhua. So why hold out on getting to know Shenhua when the focus is on Shenhua?

I mean, if there was ever an opportunity to get to know more about Ren and Shenhua, Shenmue 3 was it. It's not like anything else was going on, and we were already in Bailu.

Shenhua didn't really know about Shenhua. I thought that was pretty clear from talking with her in Shenmue 3. It's possible that no one really knows about Shenhua, and that the story develops into one of self discovery for Shenhua (and Ren) as much as it is for Ryo.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

I never said you said it was the best looking game; I know you were talking about how it simulates a living world. I used the term "the best looking game" as an example to disprove a point @Sput was making and he decided to get all pedantic about it. I will edit the original post so instead of saying "best looking game" it reflects the point you were making, even though that wasn't what was being discussed.

Nice, so you admit you said something different that didnt reflect the point of 9dragons. So yes, you were indeed lying. That's what I wanted to see

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

The problem with this is that he said a similar thing about S3. Plot points like the prophecy, the mirrors, the second Shenmue tree should have been explained in Bailu. The mirrors, the prophecy and the Shenmue trees are from Bailu. Also it's Shenny's home. Where would have been a better place to explain those things?

We can sit here and play this "should've, could've, would've" game all day long. The fact of the matter is that @Thomasina wanted to know whether Suzuki still cared about the story. You can be skeptical if you want, but honestly, what do you want Suzuki to say at this point? What's done is done. I wanted to play the Three Kingdoms siege minigame along with a more strategic combat system and I didn't get that either.

If this kind of thing is that disconcerting to you, then be proactive and let Suzuki know that you want more story. He has a Twitter account after all.

 

[Sonoshee]

Yu said we'd get answers on the poem/prophecy and the tree in 3.

... I'm still waiting.

You really think Yu would not put answers in 4 when there's 5 games total? Come on...

 

[Yokosuka]

If this kind of thing is that disconcerting to you, then be proactive and let Suzuki know that you want more story. He has a Twitter account after all.

I remember I have tweeted Suzuki in 2015 or 2016 to do the game he wants by quoting himself about the rose without thorns.

I would not have the courage to request him formal features. Don't want to feel Homer Simpson.

 

[Sergeynest]

So we're going to learn about things from Bailu on the Great Wall or some other place in China?

That doesn't seem too practical to me at the first glance. Also Shenny's stepfather probably won't be there with Ryo. The Shenmue trees are probably only in Bailu, the people who know about the friendship between Iwao and Sunming are probably in Bailu. Again, I'd love to be proven wrong but it just doesn't seem to make much sense to explain these things in other places than Bailu.

Completely agree with you on this one.
They should have made Ryo, Shenhua and Ren return to Bailu Village with Yuan and at their house Shenhua's stepfather could then have answered most of these questions and we would have appreciated Shenmue 3's story that much more.
They could have even made a final cutscene with a party in Bailu village with the villagers celebrating the return of the kidnapped stonemasons. In my opinion that would have been a great ending to Shenmue 3.
But I think ultimatly they were forced to complete Shenmue 3 in a bit of rush.
At least that's the feeling that I got in the final moments of Shenmue 3.

 

[spud1897]

Completely agree with you on this one.
They should have made Ryo, Shenhua and Ren return to Bailu Village with Yuan and at their house Shenhua's stepfather could then have answered most of these questions and we would have appreciated Shenmue 3's story that much more.
They could have even made a final cutscene with a party in Bailu village with the villagers celebrating the return of the kidnapped stonemasons. In my opinion that would have been a great ending to Shenmue 3.
But I think ultimatly they were forced to complete Shenmue 3 in a bit of rush.
At least that's the feeling that I got in the final moments of Shenmue 3.

They were forced to complete it in a rush. Cedric said as much back in March.

 

[Sergeynest]

They were forced to complete it in a rush. Cedric said as much back in March.

Thank you for clearing that out.
I just wonder how much we could have got out of Shenmue 3 if they had another 6 months or even another year of development.
I think with the right decisions it could have become on par with the first two Shenmue's.

 

[spud1897]

Thank you for clearing that out.
I just wonder how much we could have got out of Shenmue 3 if they had another 6 months or even another year of development.
I think with the right decisions it could have become on par with the first two Shenmue's.

It's an interesting point. Certainty in the ending I think we would have gotten more but I suspect it's a case that the publisher basically told them to get the game out and that was that.

Yu seems to know, from the interview, where the flaws in 3 are and hopefully will address them but also while making what he wants to.

 

[iknifaugood]

Maybe the meaning of the poem IS actually revealed in Shenmue 3.

S3 reveals the Dragon is the Emperor and the Pheonix is the Empress of the last Qing Dynasty who fought over the hidden power of the mirrors.

I'm concerned that this is all the explanation we're going to get. Elder Yeh is pretty explicit about the fact that the dragon and phoenix are the emperor and empress (of the Qing dynasty) and the treasure is their (literal) treasure "hidden in their palace". As far as I'm concerned, we can pretty much take that literally. I have a thread where I go into all the issues that would raise with the broader story here but suffice it to say that it still doesn't explain why it's about Shenhua in particular or how they knew Ryo would come to the village literally days before he arrived. Like, the poem is specifically about Shenhua, it's been recited in Bailu village since long ago, and she's not even from there?

The Shenmue trees are probably only in Bailu

We actually know for a fact that there's at least one other Shenmue tree (in the flashback where Shenhua is named). And I would definitely expect there to be more.

You really think Yu would not put answers in 4 when there's 5 games total? Come on...

Same could be said about 3...

Completely agree with you on this one.
They should have made Ryo, Shenhua and Ren return to Bailu Village with Yuan and at their house Shenhua's stepfather could then have answered most of these questions and we would have appreciated Shenmue 3's story that much more.
They could have even made a final cutscene with a party in Bailu village with the villagers celebrating the return of the kidnapped stonemasons. In my opinion that would have been a great ending to Shenmue 3.
But I think ultimatly they were forced to complete Shenmue 3 in a bit of rush.
At least that's the feeling that I got in the final moments of Shenmue 3.

I have a theory that Yuanda Zhu and Yuan's speeches were switched at some point to give the ending to S2 some more "punch". It would make way more sense for Zhu, Sunming Zhao's best friend, to know that his son was kidnapped by the CYM and for Yuan, the descendant of the man who made the mirrors, to know about the constellation pattern.

Nice, so you admit you said something different that didnt reflect the point of 9dragons. So yes, you were indeed lying. That's what I wanted to see

Troll.
Mod Note: Picture removed as resorting to nothing other than a back and forth that has no purpose. See my note later on for further details.

 

[Sonoshee]

Imagine for a moment the Kickstarter never got much past that initial 2mill goal. And there were no publishers willing to put into the pot. Some people think Shenmue 3 is mediocre now, but what would it have been like without the $20 million we got? I think with how the franchise was dead for so many years, we should be thankful for what we did get - imperfections and all - and just stop going on about what could have been.

 

[spud1897]

I'd only just caught up with this now but I will spell it out very simply.

Whether a view had been deliberately mis-represented or not @iknifaugood and @Sput this ends now, any more from either one of you and it's a 24 hour ban. Drop it!

EDIT for clarity: I was dropped a PM over this. There is an ignore function use it. If people want to get all defensive over each other's views then quite simply take a step back, there's too much of this back and forth with no end results so it ends now.

 

[Sonoshee]

Same could be said about 3...

No, the same can't be said.
3 still moved the story forward, just not to where you personally wanted it to go.
4 will tie up some threads as Yu already said.

 

[iknifaugood]

Well, I can say with 100% certainty that Suzuki gave the other writers all of the NPCs' background data to inform the NPC dialogue that they wrote, unless he just lied about that.

I'm sorry but you can't even speak to all the NPCs in Niaowu so I highly doubt they all have names and backstories...

I'm also pretty sure that no one was actually saying "best simulation of life," but "best game that simulates a living world," as in, simulates what it feels like to interact with a world that people physically inhabit outside of the purview of the player character. I just don't think you will ever get it, and that's all right, but some people are looking to Shenmue for that sense of interacting with a game world that feels like it could physically exist, beyond just the trappings of simulated reality.

Yea I get it. Lots of games have you inhabit the player character's world. It's pretty clear you have a very low opinion of the games industry at large so I don't expect you to give credit where it's due. If you think Shenmue is still the standard after 20 years then you either don't play enough games or are blinded by nostalgia.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way; As if Shenmue doing something not represented in modern gaming necessarily makes it superior, which doesn't have to be the case. In fact, it's not really about it being a competition, unless you're focused on sales. I personally feel GTA3 and Vice City did much more to inform the current state of AAA games, even if bits and pieces of Shenmue's legacy can be felt at times as well. We fundamentally see modern games differently, though. For me, most modern games are sterilized by a corporatism that demands soulless, spotless products to be shoveled out en masse. Shenmue was essentially the last gasp of a company that regularly put everything they had into forward thinking, eclectic, risky ideas. They were an R&D facility first, with some absolutely brilliant minds, but weren't adequately rewarded for their free spirit, and the greater company didn't have the business acumen to make up for it. Ideas lost, the profitability of the lowest common denominator won, and the rest is, as they say, history. I would just really enjoy it if one of the last bastions of the old world could still continue to exist in a similar form after it was resurrected from its grave. (It's nice that things like GRIS can exist in a niche, anyway.)

I agree that Shenmue got a raw deal but it was also just as concerned with graphics and spectacle as modern games. One of the main criticisms of Shenmue is that it's soulless, robotic, that it doesn't simulate life because no one acts like a human. Shenmue being split up into however many games, the budget being bloated, the focus on high end graphics, the fact that the "What's Shenmue" demo ends with Yukawa sitting next to a pile of unsold Dreamcasts, pumping his fists at the thought that Shenmue would be the game that sells them. I think you're giving Shenmue a bit too much of a pass on the business/corporate side of things. Just because it didn't work out, doesn't mean they weren't trying...

3 still moved the story forward, just not to where you personally wanted it to go.

I think it's pretty safe to say it's more than me personally. And I didn't say it didn't move the story forward at all, just that it didn't have the answers that Suzuki claimed it would.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

Fuck it. Just let Sega do the next one. What makes me sad:
- He said to give a Shenmue originals treatment to Shen3, they should have gonne all way in for Bailu Village!! INDEED!!!!! GOD DAMN!!!!Definately, would be a way better game!!!

 

[Sonoshee]

I think it's pretty safe to say it's more than me personally. And I didn't say it didn't move the story forward at all, just that it didn't have the answers that Suzuki claimed it would.

Fine. Then you and a bunch of others. That better? :)

As for Suzuki making claims about what would and would not be in 3, things change. He's moved the story about plenty of times during development of all three titles. However, with 4 he will need to tie up or progress on some story threads as he'd be one game away from finishing the series at that point. He already said he made 3 for the fans, so it had a lot of fan service. 4 will be made with profit in mind so he'll need to push the story more.