At What Point Does Ryo.. Evolve?

gladias9

The Anime Is Better...
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May 30, 2019
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Shenmue II
I was just thinking about Ryo's growth as a martial artist.

Despite the events of Shenmue 1 where Ryo is revealed to have been trained by his father since childhood..
Despite the events of Shenmue 2 where Ryo learns about the Wude and personally receives lessons from Master Tao..
Despite the events of Shenmue 3 where Ryo is training harder than ever (in-game) and learning OP butt bumps (I'm sorry, just poking fun 🤣)..

He hasn't really grown as much as I expected. I dare say that his teachings don't even carry on between games ("mind as clear as a polished mirror", etc).

So I'm asking for your opinions on the matter. Do you notice the advances he's making? How many games do you think he needs to properly take on Lan Di? If Shenmue 4 is the last then will Ryo enter the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to complete his training on time? Wait, wrong universe..
 
Yes, I really thought he had evolved a lot since S1, throughout my playthrough of S3. But the ending ruined Ryos evolution for me. More than that, it almost ruined him as a character and made him kind of dislikeable.

When he said "don't run away Lan Di, I WIIIILLL avenge my father!" I thought to myself "What a delusional little prick!".

The only good thing about the ending is the way Corey says the word "WIIIILLLL".  Cracks me up any time I watch him say it to Lan Di and/or on the Great Wall.
:D
 
Why should he ?

So far he hasn't faced any consequences for the way he behaves.
By being reckless, he has gotten closer to Lan Di which is his only goal. He doesn't even care if he can't really beat him.

Until he gets punished for his behavior he is going to be the way he is now.
 
Sure, I noticed some growth.

In Shenmue 1 Ryo struggles to take down Chai and the player is thrown into long, arduous fights with him on two occasions. But in Shenmue 3, Ryo effortlessly defeats Chai using just one move both in Bailu and Niaowu.

In Shenmue 2 Ryo has extensive fights with the Chi You Men in black suits at the Yellow Head base, but in Shenmue 3 he knocks out Lan Di's personal bodyguards in just one hit.

In Shenmue 1 Ryo tries to fight Lan Di both in the opening cinematic and the bad ending, and both times he lasts about one second. In Shenmue 3, he has become strong enough to have an actual battle with Lan Di.

As for why he's still too weak to beat Lan Di just yet or why he's still ignoring people's counsel and lusting for revenge, we still have about two more sequels to go to finish this series. You don't complete your character arc and beat the primary antagonist 40% through a story.
 
He's not going to evolve, ever. It's just game logic.
You might as well wonder where he keeps all this food he has to keep buying or all those toys he collects.
If they made another ten games he would start each and every one of them back at square one and have to train up for the whole game.
In the same way Ash from Pokemon has to start back at zero every three years and get beaten by a level 1 rat despite being a runner up in a league and beating ten gods a few episodes before.
Or the Doctor Who audios of which all 10,000 plus end with the noble sacrifice of another character to make the Doctor change his ways and reflect on his actions, only he never does.

All forms of fiction ultimately disappoint be it film, book or TV, games are by their very nature built to be a certain way that will not make sense. If Ryo was acting like a real human he would long ago have asked himself maybe that guy had a valid reason to attack my old man, maybe my father HAS been lying to me all my life. Maybe he did kill that guy, he hid stolen items from me, he endangered my life and the life of those two others in the dojo, all three could have been killed right there on day 1.

But no, I want my revenge is his only goal. Revenge for what? Why is he even doing any of this? He should be taking any of the 20 or so women that like him out and looking to get a full time job and moving on with his life, that's how it would be in the real world but that of course would make a boring game so it doesn't happen.

Instead Ryo trails all over the world asking people questions, saving girls from drowning and beating up thugs, he also gets beat down hard enough to be put unconscious for two days straight which in the real world would either kill him outright or insure that he was brain damaged. Soon as he wakes up, where the thugs at I gotta get back out there. Oh and his friend also tried to kill him back in S2.

I mean if he really wanted revenge he could just get a knife or a gun and it would be bye bye Lan Di but again game logic and so it goes which is why Ryo will not evolve as a character and neither will Ash, The Doctor or any other fictional being.
This is why people should never get so caught up with these things. Because they will always let you down. :D
 
I always disagreed with people saying he's grown much after Hong Kong, even as a human being. Ryo making his Tai Chi on the cliff while Shenhua's sleeping in disc 4 was never an evidence to me.

Despite the Wude, Xiuying always refused he continues his journey because she knows how stubborn he is and she taught him a last move not to be wrecked by Lan Di.

All the masters tell him the same: he's weak if not brainless. Ryo can't still even touch them over a fight (although the fight with masters will probably remain rigged to the very end, at least for cost reasons).

However, the concept of Ryo growing exclusively through "gameplay" did work on me. After so much time spent on training, level ups and beating street fighters, I do really felt myself powerful in a pure roleplay fashion. Funnily, the clothing swap could bring me a DBZ effect somehow. I thought that the last scene at the hotel balcony with Ryo looking at the sky was perfectly timed and justified. One of the best scenes of Shenmue 3.

Above all, Ryo is certainly someone with an incredible talent if you remind the events retrospectively: By almost himself, he beat successively the Mad Angels, Yellow Heads, now the Red Snakes and depending of your playthrough, all the professional street fighters he met. The original title "The Legend of Akira" slowly begins to justify itself.

Considering the Ryo's journey will not last more than two in-game years (?), I assume there's some moment in Shenmue 4 when Ryo enters a deep meditation/rage phase similar to the scene when Ryo's got the flashback of Iwao training with the sword in the dojo but more dramatic and suggestively longer. A way all his lessons would finally click.

So yeah, I do expect a "Time Chamber" and it wouldn't make no sense to me if well told. But narration is another debate...
 
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As a fighter he has in fact grown quite a bit but not as a personality. He still is the very same delusional and oblivious revenge-obsessed teenage prick he was at the start of S1.

I too think that this is mostly due to the fact that he's got no reason to grow up. There's always people covering for his recklessness and stupidity. Guizhang and Master Chen in S1, Xiuying in S2, Ren in S3. He's always got a "big brother" or "big sister" to look after him, so why would he grow up?
 
As a fighter he has in fact grown quite a bit but not as a personality. He still is the very same delusional and oblivious revenge-obsessed teenage prick he was at the start of S1.

I too think that this is mostly due to the fact that he's got no reason to grow up. There's always people covering for his recklessness and stupidity. Guizhang and Master Chen in S1, Xiuying in S2, Ren in S3. He's always got a "big brother" or "big sister" to look after him, so why would he grow up?
I think is where Ren dies (just a guess) in the next game, due to Ryos reckless nature. This then triggers a self-reflective phase and intensive training. That's when Ryo will develop as a person IMO.
 
I think is where Ren dies (just a guess) in the next game, due to Ryos reckless nature. This then triggers a self-reflective phase and intensive training. That's when Ryo will develop as a person IMO.
Since Ren actually accompanies Ryo this time, it will give more time for the development of Ren and Ryos relationship. While it was cool Ren was in 3, he just popped up suddenly and Ryo hardly said anything. If they plan on killing of Ren, Ryo is going to need to reciprocate on the friendship instead of going "that Ren/how are we friends?/dont trust Ren".
 
Since Ren actually accompanies Ryo this time, it will give more time for the development of Ren and Ryos relationship. While it was cool Ren was in 3, he just popped up suddenly and Ryo hardly said anything. If they plan on killing of Ren, Ryo is going to need to reciprocate on the friendship instead of going "that Ren/how are we friends?/dont trust Ren".
I think that could well happen. Given Ren saved his live in the castle and it's clear Ren cares for Ryo I think we will see their dynamics change, especially on Ryo's side.
 
By being reckless, he has gotten closer to Lan Di which is his only goal. He doesn't even care if he can't really beat him.

Until he gets punished for his behavior he is going to be the way he is now.
Choices and consequences is a perfect way to force Ryo to change.
Someone proposed that Lan Di should've killed Ren in another thread and I completely agree that at least someone should have died over Ryo's recklessness behavior. It would at least make him reflect on things.
 
In Shenmue 1 Ryo tries to fight Lan Di both in the opening cinematic and the bad ending, and both times he lasts about one second. In Shenmue 3, he has become strong enough to have an actual battle with Lan Di.
That's an interesting take, I didn't take notice of the length of the battles.
 
He's not going to evolve, ever. It's just game logic.
You might as well wonder where he keeps all this food he has to keep buying or all those toys he collects.
If they made another ten games he would start each and every one of them back at square one and have to train up for the whole game.

In the same way Ash from Pokemon has to start back at zero every three years and get beaten by a level 1 rat despite being a runner up in a league and beating ten gods a few episodes before. All forms of fiction ultimately disappoint be it film, book or TV, games are by their very nature built to be a certain way that will not make sense.

I disagree with your analysis for three primary reasons. First, there are plenty of stories out there where characters have grown and evolved throughout the story and reached an endpoint. Saying that Ryo will never grow when only forty percent of the story has been unveiled is short-sighted. Keep in mind that in Shenmue II though Ryo learns these lessons, that does not mean he has internalized them. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed that Ryo was more frustrated with Xiuying for impeding his quest.


Second of all, not to get too philosophical, but your entire analysis hinges on the fact that humans are completely rational creatures who never make mistakes. From the cradle to the grave, humans are either learning or having to relearn lessons. This is why these nonsensical stories still resonate with people regardless of life experience.

Third and finally, while I cannot comment on Dr. Who, your comparison between Satoshi from the Pocket Monsters anime and Shenmue is a poor one. Originally, the anime was intended by Takeshi Shudo to be an all-ages cartoon that lasted a year (ending with the Mewtwo movie). In that year, Satoshi was supposed to defeat his rival Shigeru in the end (but that was moved back to the Johto arc). However, the Pocket Monster brand became popular worldwide. With this newfound popularity and executive meddling, the anime became a former shadow of what it once was, a walking advertisement for the video games. Shenmue’s story is the exact opposite of Pocket Monsters.

While I can understand people’s frustration with Ryo’s lack of growth, expecting him to be a different person when only forty percent of the story has been told, is once again, short-sighted in my opinion.
 
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Like many have said not a lot of time has passed since the story began so it's not likely that Ryo would have improved enough in that time period, or given up his feelings for revenge.

Given how Shenmue plays out day by day it doesn't seem likely the overall story can realistically take place over more than about a year unless there is some kind of time jump. While Ryo is often told that he has natural aptitude in martial arts and is able to learn moves very quickly, he is also constantly told he has a lot to learn.

I don't see a time jump being likely for two reasons:

1) It doesn't fit with the procedural nature of Shenmue and having the player grow alongside Ryo.
2)The urgency of the story would need a good explanation for a time jump and it becomes difficult to write all the events that would have to happen in between to all the other characters. Basically, it's more effort than it's worth.

In the end it may not be realistic that he grows in the relatively short time available but the game may play out that way for the sake of storytelling.

Of course this is based on the assumption that he will eventually defeat Lan Di in battle. That may not be the case.

I see 4 possibilities in the end:

1) He trains over several years and becomes strong enough to defeat Lan Di (unlikely)
2) He trains over a short period and becomes strong enough, or learns the right moves, and defeats Lan Di
3) Lan Di dies by some other means before Ryo can get to him
4) Ryo gives up his quest for revenge and stops pursuing Lan Di (the above may also still happen)

I really don't see the first two happening because 1 doesn't fit Shenmue and 2 would either be very cheap or not make any sense considering Ryo is not even at the level to land a single hit halfway through the story.

We know from interviews and such that Ryo will eventually give up his quest for revenge. However, I don't think that means Lan Di won't die. It is likely someone else or something else will befall him.

As for why Ryo will change, many good guesses that a character like Ren or someone else could die as a result of his stubbornness. I've always liked the idea that maybe when he learns the truth about his father (and Sunming Zhao) it forces him to change his perspective. Either way, Shenmue 3 cements Lan Di as a villain, so how this ties in with his ultimate defeat I'd love to see.
 
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