At What Point Does Ryo.. Evolve?

[darksniper]

Yu Suzuki once said in an interview that Ryo will grow after a stage he called "the sadness". I guess that yeah, something traumatic might push him to change

The Sadness stage was Shenmue I when Ryo lost his father. I believe Shenmue III starts and ends in the "departure" phase of the story. Shenmue IV should be the "fight" stage where Ryo has another battle with "Randi" along with a "victory".

I think is where Ren dies (just a guess) in the next game, due to Ryos reckless nature. This then triggers a self-reflective phase and intensive training. That's when Ryo will develop as a person IMO.

Something tells me Ren makes it through the entire series alive. My gut feeling tells me that Lan Di is going to be the one that dies by sacrificing his life to save Ryo. I've always felt that way when I saw that GDC card of Akira carrying that body, but I feel even stronger about this guess now that it's implied that Zhao Sunming wasn't killed by Iwao.

Once Lan Di learns the truth of this, I think he's going to do the ultimate sacrifice to repay Ryo as an apology for killing Iwao. I think this is how Ryo will get over his thirst for revenge. I really hope Shenmue IV gives Lan Di more character development as it's time we start learning his story and why he is the way he is. Yu Suzuki has said that he's a misunderstood character for a reason.

 

[gamesbloke]

I like to think that psychologically Ryo lost some of his fighting ability and lost the sense of the Wude at the start of S3. I think that either the task ahead or just a feeling of weariness took over him and he had to focus and rebalance.

I think the thug battles represent Ryo rediscovering who he is and what he has learned from the previous games. I think both we as the player and Ryo as a character both had to reacquire ourselves and over time discover our goals/drive all over again. Plus an opportunity for some history and lore in between.

I raised a point on another thread regarding playing all three games to appreciate the slow pacing/lack of meaty story elements in S3 and where the journey is taking us. And Ryo. We need the peaks and troughs of the experience to make the story and character development all the more impacting. When the time comes of course.

Only five times in my life have I ever experienced something in video games that I loved so passionately that I never tired, never got bored, never got deeply frustrated.

Again I like to think this is all part of the journey and the pay off for both Ryo and ourselves will be worthy and just.

 

[Paulisdead18]

Like many have said not a lot of time has passed since the story began so it's not likely that Ryo would have improved enough in that time period, or given up his feelings for revenge.

Given how Shenmue plays out day by day it doesn't seem likely the overall story can realistically take place over more than about a year unless there is some kind of time jump. While Ryo is often told that he has natural aptitude in martial arts and is able to learn moves very quickly, he is also constantly told he has a lot to learn.

I don't see a time jump being likely for two reasons:

1) It doesn't fit with the procedural nature of Shenmue and having the player grow alongside Ryo.
2)The urgency of the story would need a good explanation for a time jump and it becomes difficult to write all the events that would have to happen in between to all the other characters. Basically, it's more effort than it's worth.

In the end it may not be realistic that he grows in the relatively short time available but the game may play out that way for the sake of storytelling.

Of course this is based on the assumption that he will eventually defeat Lan Di in battle. That may not be the case.

I see 4 possibilities in the end:

1) He trains over several years and becomes strong enough to defeat Lan Di (unlikely)
2) He trains over a short period and becomes strong enough, or learns the right moves, and defeats Lan Di
3) Lan Di dies by some other means before Ryo can get to him
4) Ryo gives up his quest for revenge and stops pursuing Lan Di (the above may also still happen)

I really don't see the first two happening because 1 doesn't fit Shenmue and 2 would either be very cheap or not make any sense considering Ryo is not even at the level to land a single hit halfway through the story.

We know from interviews and such that Ryo will eventually give up his quest for revenge. However, I don't think that means Lan Di won't die. It is likely someone else or something else will befall him.

As for why Ryo will change, many good guesses that a character like Ren or someone else could die as a result of his stubbornness. I've always liked the idea that maybe when he learns the truth about his father (and Sunming Zhao) it forces him to change his perspective. Either way, Shenmue 3 cements Lan Di as a villain, so how this ties in with his ultimate defeat I'd love to see.

I actually don't think he's going to ever "defeat" Lan Di, or at least not in a traditional sense. I predict he'll overcome his lust for revenge before he's at a point where he could even beat Lan Di, shifting the story into a "bigger picture" scenario alluded to throughout the series (The Chiyoumen, the Mirrors, and what it all means).

 

[hmjohnny]

I actually don't think he's going to ever "defeat" Lan Di, or at least not in a traditional sense. I predict he'll overcome his lust for revenge before he's at a point where he could even beat Lan Di, shifting the story into a "bigger picture" scenario alluded to throughout the series (The Chiyoumen, the Mirrors, and what it all means).

Maybe, I've thought as much as well. Although we should be at that point in the story already or at least building to it, but so far it hasn't happened.

Also, in the Shenmue GDC video Suzuki talks about the outline for the VFRPG and that Akira defeats "Randi" towards the end so it may be that Ryo does ultimately take his revenge. However, in the VFRPG it's implied that Akira loses his purpose in life after winning and becomes lost which could mean that Shenmue may have a tragic ending if it goes that route.

 

[Budgiecat]

I was just thinking about Ryo's growth as a martial artist.

Despite the events of Shenmue 1 where Ryo is revealed to have been trained by his father since childhood..
Despite the events of Shenmue 2 where Ryo learns about the Wude and personally receives lessons from Master Tao..
Despite the events of Shenmue 3 where Ryo is training harder than ever (in-game) and learning OP butt bumps (I'm sorry, just poking fun )..

He hasn't really grown as much as I expected. I dare say that his teachings don't even carry on between games ("mind as clear as a polished mirror", etc).

So I'm asking for your opinions on the matter. Do you notice the advances he's making? How many games do you think he needs to properly take on Lan Di? If Shenmue 4 is the last then will Ryo enter the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to complete his training on time? Wait, wrong universe..

Someone can train in MA via their father all their childhood and still be scrub level compared to others. There's always someone better.

Also


Remember that the course of all these events so far, from Shenmue 1 through Shenmue 3, have only taken place over the span of a couple of months.

Not sure if you train in martial arts or ever have, but if you're familiar with the term "Bullshido", thats a term used for commercial martial arts schools, primarily opened in the West that try to take advantage of consumers by offering promises of mastering martial arts in as little time as possible while its really watered down techniques taught by inferior and inexperienced so called teachers.

So, the idea of 'mastering' martial arts, or even 'evolving' to a higher level in less than 6 months....sorry to burst your nitpicky bubble.....is...bullshit


Thats the reason Ryo still gets his ass kicked here.

Thats the reason several teachers in Shenmue 2 and Shenmue 3 continue to tell Ryo that it takes time to evolve and master these techniques and cannot be done overnight. Not even in a few months.

Think of any celeb that tried to jump into MMA (CM Punk, several known boxers, even Brock Lesnar) they didnt dominate right away even after several months or a year of training to prepare. Brock lost his first MMA match and it was really only due to his brute mass and strength that he was able to overpower other more experienced fighters. But eventually skill and experience caught up to him and he got his ass handed and left and went back to WWE. CM Punk even worse.
And everyone's favorite leprechaun, Conor McGregor, actually though he had a chance against Mayweather. Joke.

So yeah, it will take more than a couple of months for Ryo to evolve. Thats how martial arts works.

 

[hmjohnny]

So yeah, it will take more than a couple of months for Ryo to evolve. Thats how martial arts works.

In real life, of course. But do you think the games are going to take place over years, because I can't see that happening.

Either Ryo develops his skills unrealistically quickly because it's a game, or he doesn't and the story isn't ultimately about that.

 

[Yokosuka]

I won't say it would be unrealistic. In recent years, we've got:
Jeremy Lin in basketball
Mohammed Salah in football
Then Ryo in martial arts.

 

[iknifaugood]

1) He trains over several years and becomes strong enough to defeat Lan Di (unlikely)
2) He trains over a short period and becomes strong enough, or learns the right moves, and defeats Lan Di
3) Lan Di dies by some other means before Ryo can get to him
4) Ryo gives up his quest for revenge and stops pursuing Lan Di (the above may also still happen)

We don't know enough about Lan Di to say one way or the other, but I'm assuming there's more depth to his character than just "villain" and if the story is about Ryo taking his revenge on him then I don't see why it needed to be a multi-chapter epic spread across however many games.

1 and 2. Ryo training is something that it's pretty safe to assume has been abandoned; if he was ever going to do it, it would have been in Bailu Village or immediately after getting his ass kicked by Lan Di, but S3 completely abandons this. As far as we know, Ryo is heading to where he knows Lan Di is and is going to bash his head against that wall again.

3. I think this would only work if Lan Di had some kind of redemption arc, or if he is just a villain, someone would kill Lan Di to save Ryo or something. I think the fact that we don't get any hint of redemption in S3 (Lan Di does indeed appear to be just a villain) is worrying, however I'm still holding out hope that Lan Di realizing Iwao had both mirrors and didn't do anything with them changed something inside him.

4. This is what I always thought the story was driving at, but it would only make sense if the threat Lan Di poses is neutralized in some way. As it stands right now, Ryo's beef with Lan Di extends to the entire CYM organization and whatever threat they pose so he has reasons other than revenge to kill Lan Di. Also if the story is about Ryo not taking revenge then it seems silly that it would be ok for him to kill other characters.

Truthfully there aren't many ways I could see this playing out in a satisfactory way.

 

[Budgiecat]

In real life, of course. But do you think the games are going to take place over years, because I can't see that happening.

Either Ryo develops his skills unrealistically quickly because it's a game, or he doesn't and the story isn't ultimately about that.

Usually in the old school martial arts movies that have these kinda plots there's a time skip.
But like others said, doubt thats going to happen here.

 

[Crimson]

The Sadness stage was Shenmue I when Ryo lost his father. I believe Shenmue III starts and ends in the "departure" phase of the story. Shenmue IV should be the "fight" stage where Ryo has another battle with "Randi" along with a "victory".

No, the Sadness stage was actually something that according to Yu Suzuki would have taken place while Ryo is seeking his revenge. Therefore way after the death of Iwao.

 

[Creward]

If we have the assumption that Shenmue can be mapped to the heroes journey story structure (which in my opinion it quite fits).

It would seem that Shenmue3 is still in the challenges section before the temptation stage and that whould mean that Ryo has not reach the point of personal transformation.

If I have to guess the cliff temple is the point that will change Ryo for better (or worse if Yu Suzuki tuns Shenmue into a dark story of becoming the next Lan Di but that is highly unlikely). I believe that in the Cliff temple there is some mystic/spiritual element that would help in his vengance but would require a sacrifice, like for example Ren or Shenhua, which would map to the temptation stage of the hero journey.

Then Ryo will succumb to temptation and almost succeed in defeating Lan Di but some extrnal factor make him fail. However, as he paid a high price for it, afterward Ryo will start thinking that it might not be worth sacrificing everything and thus he will shift his goal to something different.

 

[hyo_razuki]

Usually in the old school martial arts movies that have these kinda plots there's a time skip.
But like others said, doubt thats going to happen here.

We all want the Rocky montage with "Heart of Iron" playing. It has to happen at some point. You know it and I know it. It's basically what the entire Shenmue franchise was created for all along.

Spoiler

 

[MadeMan]

I like to think that psychologically Ryo lost some of his fighting ability and lost the sense of the Wude at the start of S3. I think that either the task ahead or just a feeling of weariness took over him and he had to focus and rebalance.

I kind of agree, but I felt like it was actually Ryo getting arrogant as an interesting character development.

In Shenmue 1 he fights Chai who is physically frail but a good martial artist and a little crazy and unorthodox.

In Shenmue 2 he starts to learn more advanced techniques and begins to mentally train a lot harder. He can defeat Dou Niu who is physically huge but not particularly skilled.

I think that by 3, Ryo is feeling very arrogant and too cocky. I think the game tries to convey this with some of the QTEs where Ryo is attacking thugs with his back-turned, or his showy antics with the thief in Nioawu.

Either this is just the writer/director being tone-deaf (possible) or they are trying to show us that Ryo is getting too arrogant for his own good. In Shenmue 3 he has to fight martial artists who are very skilled and physically capable of putting all that skill to lethal use. It gives us a reason to 'start over' with his training and discipline as he gets too cocky.

Then the budget dies and we get Ryo learning 'LOL how are you losing, just do a bodycheck, bro' twice.

 

[iknifaugood]

Either this is just the writer/director being tone-deaf (possible) or they are trying to show us that Ryo is getting too arrogant for his own good.

A nice idea but Ryo loses almost every story related fight in the game. If they wanted to paint him as arrogant then he should have been winning effortlessly until he got his ass kicked by Lan Di, which would have been a great story structure if that came at around the halfway point but it would have required more story afterwards. As it stands, with Ryo on his way to almost assuredly getting his ass kicked by Lan Di for a third time while telling him he'd "better not run" in his head, Ryo comes across as just dumb rather than arrogant. It actually made me laugh when I heard it.

In Shenmue 3 he has to fight martial artists who are very skilled and physically capable of putting all that skill to lethal use.

Who apart from Lan Di uses martial arts lethally? In S2 there are several fail states where Ryo dies but I noticed that never happens in S3. It's one of the main things that made the thugs in S3 so much less intimidating.

Then the budget dies and we get Ryo learning 'LOL how are you losing, just do a bodycheck, bro' twice.

 

[Budgiecat]

I kind of agree, but I felt like it was actually Ryo getting arrogant as an interesting character development.

In Shenmue 1 he fights Chai who is physically frail but a good martial artist and a little crazy and unorthodox.

In Shenmue 2 he starts to learn more advanced techniques and begins to mentally train a lot harder. He can defeat Dou Niu who is physically huge but not particularly skilled.

I think that by 3, Ryo is feeling very arrogant and too cocky. I think the game tries to convey this with some of the QTEs where Ryo is attacking thugs with his back-turned, or his showy antics with the thief in Nioawu.

Either this is just the writer/director being tone-deaf (possible) or they are trying to show us that Ryo is getting too arrogant for his own good. In Shenmue 3 he has to fight martial artists who are very skilled and physically capable of putting all that skill to lethal use. It gives us a reason to 'start over' with his training and discipline as he gets too cocky.

Then the budget dies and we get Ryo learning 'LOL how are you losing, just do a bodycheck, bro' twice.

 

[MadeMan]

A nice idea but Ryo loses almost every story related fight in the game. If they wanted to paint him as arrogant then he should have been winning effortlessly until he got his ass kicked by Lan Di, which would have been a great story structure if that came at around the halfway point but it would have required more story afterwards. As it stands, with Ryo on his way to almost assuredly getting his ass kicked by Lan Di for a third time while telling him he'd "better not run" in his head, Ryo comes across as just dumb rather than arrogant. It actually made me laugh when I heard it.

I'm talking specifically about his actions. When he's beating up thugs he's doing it with backfists while not even looking at them, or toying with his enemies. We didn't really see that from him before.

As for the 'lethal' martial arts, I used the wrong word. I should have said 'highly effective', like Mr Muscles and Fist of the North Star guy in Bailu.

 

[iknifaugood]

I'm talking specifically about his actions. When he's beating up thugs he's doing it with backfists while not even looking at them, or toying with his enemies. We didn't really see that from him before.

That's very true and something I noticed as well. By the end of the game I kind of chalked it up to a more humorous tone overall. There were things that happened, especially in the chase QTE in Niaowu, that were Kung Fu Hustle levels of physical comedy.

Fist of the North Star guy in Bailu.

I actually lolled at this.

 

[tya]

IMO Ryo will go way beyond the simple way of thinking revenge on a pupet like Lan-Di, as he's not himself anymore.
(Lan DI reminds me of Magus, in CT game or Vegeta in dbz series...)

in the end, what's the point of a game to seek revenge? plenty of free violence games out there..
maybe too much violent games for this saga of another time and spirit.

In the end, I bet shenmue is all but revenge.

Matial arts, spiritual, friendship, love maybe, in a calm world full of uncertain.
Revenge will slowly disapear in Ryo.
his patience and inner self love and understanding will be his another story of life.
that's the way of martial arts.
He will be another soul.

that's why some dont like this game, which is more an experience, than a simple entertainment.
That's the contrary of the current dark spirit (in tittytainment, at least...)

 

[YanTin]

Ryo's improvement seems inconsistent at times... We went from the end of Shenmue 2 where Ryo defeated well known kung fu masters and also dou niu (Which is a tank of a human being), To now, where ryo (as least in my story), got whooped no problem by the niaowu thugs and had to come back a second time after buying a book for 5000 Yuan, now all the sudden he reads it and now he has the skills to not only destroy like a hundred men on his way to that temple, but also then defeat that same thug at the top, almost mortal kombat style.

I Dont understand this, and i know that kung fu does not make someone god-like. He's very much a human, but i mean, the way we felt like fresh amateurs still in this stage in Ryo's journey, feels like all of Lishao Tao's hard work has been nullified and gone to waste really.

But we have to keep in mind, Ryo is still only 18 being thrown into an unfamiliar country and many opposing threats, of course he is gonna crack under intense pressure, and thats what makes him so relatable as a character. He still has to learn patience and to not get involved in fights that all the masters keep warning him not to get into because he's not ready (Take the ending for example).

Very interested to see how this is going to pan out.

 

[Fatal Rose]

I feel like Ryo is evolving as a martial artist nicely. In Shenmue 1 he faced tough guys, skilled guys, and a bunch of thugs. The closest he came to actually fighting a “master” was Guizhang. Chai was skilled but was mainly difficult due to his unorthodox awkward style.

In Shenmue 2 the level of competition increases immensely. He learns from people with decades more experience than him. He also begins to fight true high level fighters. With some of them being close in skill to VF characters. Douniu was difficult due to size, as anyone that big would be.

In Shenmue 3 he has trouble with the Mongolian wrestler in the village and the Xin Yi Liu He Quan expert in Niaowu. I think those two represented a huge step up in skill level compared to his previous opponents. Especially the Xin Yi Liu He Quan guy. He works relatively close to LanDi. He also put up a way better fight against Ryo when compared to the ChiYouMen who work directly alongside LanDi. Even LanDi realized Ryo has improved.