At What Point Does Ryo.. Evolve?

[orient]

To now, where ryo (as least in my story), got whooped no problem by the niaowu thugs and had to come back a second time after buying a book for 5000 Yuan, now all the sudden he reads it and now he has the skills to not only destroy like a hundred men on his way to that temple, but also then defeat that same thug at the top, almost mortal kombat style.

I think the implication, despite not being present in cutscenes, is that he didn't just buy a scroll, but "trained every day, without neglect" to get to that point, as all the game's systems point back to buying new move scrolls, mastering them, training to level up etc. I think the more you embrace that side of the game, the more the narrative works. That's going to vary from person-to-person.

Due to budget limitations, I think they had to rely a bit too heavily on the RPG-style levelling to gate your progress. In an ideal scenario not every fight with goons would require several days of training to overcome, but they just didn't have much "mainline" content to work with, forcing them to spread it out and make you work for it. This loop works better in some situations than others.

 

[Aman]

Sure, I noticed some growth.

In Shenmue 1 Ryo struggles to take down Chai and the player is thrown into long, arduous fights with him on two occasions. But in Shenmue 3, Ryo effortlessly defeats Chai using just one move both in Bailu and Niaowu.

In Shenmue 2 Ryo has extensive fights with the Chi You Men in black suits at the Yellow Head base, but in Shenmue 3 he knocks out Lan Di's personal bodyguards in just one hit.

In Shenmue 1 Ryo tries to fight Lan Di both in the opening cinematic and the bad ending, and both times he lasts about one second. In Shenmue 3, he has become strong enough to have an actual battle with Lan Di.

As for why he's still too weak to beat Lan Di just yet or why he's still ignoring people's counsel and lusting for revenge, we still have about two more sequels to go to finish this series. You don't complete your character arc and beat the primary antagonist 40% through a story.

But he loses in Shenmue 3 three times; the leader of the thugs in Bailu, the leader of the red snakes and Lan Di. And he has trouble hitting the old man in Bailu and fisherman in Niaowu too. I'm not saying he should be unbeatable and beat anybody with the flick of his finger but i did expect him to be better by now and not being to chase chickens.

 

[Wolfghosts]

But he loses in Shenmue 3 three times; the leader of the thugs in Bailu, the leader of the red snakes and Lan Di. And he has trouble hitting the old man in Bailu and fisherman in Niaowu too. I'm not saying he should be unbeatable and beat anybody with the flick of his finger but i did expect him to be better by now and not being to chase chickens.

This is the exact point I got into in my thread "Ryo is the best worst martial artist ever" the flow of the plot both devalues his ability when it's convenient and overly compensates when it's not.

 

[danielmann861]

I think the implication, despite not being present in cutscenes, is that he didn't just buy a scroll, but "trained every day, without neglect" to get to that point, as all the game's systems point back to buying new move scrolls, mastering them, training to level up etc. I think the more you embrace that side of the game, the more the narrative works. That's going to vary from person-to-person.

Due to budget limitations, I think they had to rely a bit too heavily on the RPG-style levelling to gate your progress. In an ideal scenario not every fight with goons would require several days of training to overcome, but they just didn't have much "mainline" content to work with, forcing them to spread it out and make you work for it. This loop works better in some situations than others.

I actually thought that was the genius of Shenmue III in the way it subverted leveling up. In every other game, you level up by battling random enemies.Yet here you level up by training every day...keeping in line with the WUDE. It was the most fascinating part of SIII for me.

I think the game does a great job of conveying this early on with your day to day training with Master Sun, but I do think it kind of loses it a little when it forces you to buy the next scroll in Chobu. I think you're right...budget woes maybe or too much focus on the open world and not enough focus on fleshing out the story. I guess maybe they didn't want it to look too obvious that it was repeating itself (Bailu and Chobu really do repeat themselves in structure)...but in some ways I think I would have preferred to learn the Reverse Body Check from a master...just because it could have allowed for character development.

I still think Shenmue III is one of those games where you will only get out of it what you put into it...that's not excusing its flaws, but I have noticed that those who rushed from story beat to story beat were the most disappointed with it (seemingly)

 

[MadeMan]

But he loses in Shenmue 3 three times; the leader of the thugs in Bailu, the leader of the red snakes and Lan Di. And he has trouble hitting the old man in Bailu and fisherman in Niaowu too. I'm not saying he should be unbeatable and beat anybody with the flick of his finger but i did expect him to be better by now and not being to chase chickens.

That's why I felt it made the most sense to think of Ryo getting arrogant. By making him chase chickens they're reminding him that he needs to go back to basics and not to get ahead of himself.

I actually thought that was the genius of Shenmue III in the way it subverted leveling up. In every other game, you level up by battling random throws.Yet here you level up by training every day...keeping in line with the WUDE. It was the most fascinating part of SIII for me.

See, I think Shenmue 1 and 2 did this a lot better. In 1 & 2 you train and naturally see your moves evolving into stronger versions of themselves and you also naturally get better at doing the inputs/finding combinations etc.
It's much better and more unique IMO than the arbitrary MS Paint level up bars in Shenmue 3.

 

[orient]

I actually thought that was the genius of Shenmue III in the way it subverted leveling up. In every other game, you level up by battling random throws.Yet here you level up by training every day...keeping in line with the WUDE. It was the most fascinating part of SIII for me.

I liked it as well and thematically it fits nicely. I just think that, if the game had more "mainline" content (including more fights), then not every single fight would have to set you back and force you to train. Ideally there'd be a better mix of easy/medium/hard encounters, excluding the dojos/Rose Garden. I found one sidequest that lead to an easy fight in Niaowu and it was really cool. It's a shame there wasn't more of that.

I still think Shenmue III is one of those games where you will only get out of it what you put into it...that's not excusing its flaws, but I have noticed that those who rushed from story beat to story beat were the most disappointed with it (seemingly)

I agree 100%. Shenmue III just isn't a game for people who only care about the story, and see side content as filler. It's a shame those people didn't get the experience they wanted, but that's the reality. To get the most out of III you have to embrace the training, the side activities, the economy (especially in Niaowu...I actually think there's an OK amount of story in Bailu) or you just won't experience the game as intended. I'm not saying it's the player's fault if they choose not to do that but, again, it's just the reality, as the game is more fleshed out in some areas than others.

In 1 & 2 you train and naturally see your moves evolving into stronger versions of themselves and you also naturally get better at doing the inputs/finding combinations etc.

I disagree. You don't need to train at all in I & II (Shen1 has like a dozen fights in the whole game, and you can't even train properly in Shen2) which to me is a sign of an underbaked system. Performing moves in an empty carpark is not what I'd call a good system, and the way your moves "level up" in the old games is so poorly-explained that I didn't even know the animations changed until the HD rerelease. I understand people liking the old fighting system over the new one, but the training? Not so much.

 

[Saven]

I disagree. You don't need to train at all in I & II (Shen1 has like a dozen fights in the whole game, and you can't even train properly in Shen2) which to me is a sign of an underbaked system. Performing moves in an empty carpark is not what I'd call a good system, and the way your moves "level up" in the old games is so poorly-explained that I didn't even know the animations changed until the HD rerelease. I understand people liking the old fighting system over the new one, but the training? Not so much.

Agreed. I actually had no idea that you can actually train in Shenmue II until a month ago. Training in SIII is a major major improvement and is actually encouraging and fun to do.

 

[HRGiger]

I think my one gripe about the new movesets is that half of the higher-up scrolls are really combo variations of three or four moves you've already mastered. In an actual fighting game, you'd chain these moves naturally. While you can still make combos out of combination moves, it feels less rewarding learning one or two moveset chains, rather than five or six single moves in rapid succession. A limitation of my skill in this new system, probably. That, and the "evolution" of the dodge mechanic is a downgrade.

 

[MadeMan]

I disagree. You don't need to train at all in I & II (Shen1 has like a dozen fights in the whole game, and you can't even train properly in Shen2) which to me is a sign of an underbaked system. Performing moves in an empty carpark is not what I'd call a good system, and the way your moves "level up" in the old games is so poorly-explained that I didn't even know the animations changed until the HD rerelease. I understand people liking the old fighting system over the new one, but the training? Not so much.

You don't need to train in 1 & 2, I agree, but it did reward you for doing so with better moves. I'm surprised people didn't even notice the moves changing animations, I always was very impressed with it. Certainly more impressive than a bar filling up IMO.

I much rather be practicing move inputs than mashing A to keep an arbitrary line inside another line.

 

[orient]

I much rather be practicing move inputs than mashing A to keep an arbitrary line inside another line.

But that's exactly how you master moves in III, by practicing move inputs

I liked the training mini-games as well. Yes, some of them could've been a bit more in-depth (horse stance is my least favourite) but in general I like the idea.

 

[MadeMan]

But that's exactly how you master moves in III, by practicing move inputs

I'll admit I forgot about that, but I stand by the fact that I preferred seeing the moves actually evolve rather than seeing a bar fill up. I also think the inputs in Shenmue 3 are just nonsensical so I didn't enjoy or pay much attention to them.

 

[orient]

I'll admit I forgot about that, but I stand by the fact that I preferred seeing the moves actually evolve rather than seeing a bar fill up. I also think the inputs in Shenmue 3 are just nonsensical so I didn't enjoy or pay much attention to them.

Yeah, personally I think there are big problems with both combat engines but there's no denying the original is deeper.

 

[HRGiger]

The new engine would be much improved (at least for me) if they added two things:

Assign directional dodge / parry (timed press) to the block button
Add move scrolls that create throws (single moves that lead into something like vortex throw, or combo moves leading into arm-break fire)

All the DLC hasn't been released yet, so maybe the second one will be addressed in the near future.

 

[marcrollins89]

I've definitely seen a lot of growth in Ryo. I don't have any trouble with any of the games. But maybe it depends on how you play and if you miss extra scenes.

Like, a good example is Shenmue 3. He's becoming frustrated because of his hunt for revenge, as Xuiying warned him, and now he's mad because Shenhua is worrying and scared for her father. He becomes more angry and determined. At the end, with the confrontation with Lan Di he is off-the-handle because this ONE man has made Ryo question the integrity of his own father, kidnapped Shenhua's father, and destroyed so many lives.

S1 he's looking for clues, S2 he's more aggressive and hunting Lan Di, S3 he's hot on the trail and fueled by being close to thinking there will be vengeance for everyone; Him, his father, Ine-san, Fuku-san, Shenhua, and everyone else.

It makes sense to me.

 

[orient]

The new engine would be much improved (at least for me) if they added two things:

Assign directional dodge / parry (timed press) to the block button
Add move scrolls that create throws (single moves that lead into something like vortex throw, or combo moves leading into arm-break fire)

All the DLC hasn't been released yet, so maybe the second one will be addressed in the near future.

I think it's all but confirmed that we'll need to wait for IV for throws (fingers crossed). I really don't see them changing the core combat mechanics of III at this stage.

But I agree, putting dodge on a button instead of the analog stick would be an improvement.

In fact, one of the most satisfying mechanics -- the slow-mo dodge-counter -- is woefully under-utilised as it only triggers when you're low on health. The fighting would've instantly been more engaging if you could trigger it all the time (during a small window, of course).

 

[danielmann861]

When you look at Ryo...he is essentially Akira from Virtua Fighter. They share many of the same moves, Ryo practically looks like Akira's doppelganger...so I always assumed, in terms of martial arts skill, that the plan was to take an inexperienced boy and turn him into the machine that is Akira.


Granted, the above video is a programmed TAS playing, but you can see from the move set that Akira is a beast. Even high rank Akira players are near untouchable. Considering Akira and Ryo share practically the same base move set (I mean you learn Body check/Reverse Body check in SIII as is), I always assumed the plan was that Ryo would ultimately become a beast akin to Akira.

In terms of character development? I don't know. I was originally of the thought that he would have a change of heart after his inevitable failed first meeting with Lan Di but at the end of III, he still seems determined to avenge his father...time will tell, but I would hope IV will be time of change. He did show some character development in his interactions with Shenhua. So I would hope IV is the moment where we see something of a shift within him.

 

[Creward]

When you look at Ryo...he is essentially Akira from Virtua Fighter. They share many of the same moves, Ryo practically looks like Akira's doppelganger...so I always assumed, in terms of martial arts skill, that the plan was to take an inexperienced boy and turn him into the machine that is Akira.


Granted, the above video is a programmed TAS playing, but you can see from the move set that Akira is a beast. Even high rank Akira players are near untouchable. Considering Akira and Ryo share practically the same base move set (I mean you learn Body check/Reverse Body check in SIII as is), I always assumed the plan was that Ryo would ultimately become a beast akin to Akira.

In terms of character development? I don't know. I was originally of the thought that he would have a change of heart after his inevitable failed first meeting with Lan Di but at the end of III, he still seems determined to avenge his father...time will tell, but I would hope IV will be time of change. He did show some character development in his interactions with Shenhua. So I would hope IV is the moment where we see something of a shift within him.

Well the initial project design in the Sega Saturn started as a virtua fighter RPG where the main character was a young Akira so reusing the moveset qnd not scrapping the work already done makes a lot of sense.

So our little Ryo could end like this

 

[MadeMan]

Well the initial project design in the Sega Saturn started as a virtua fighter RPG where the main character was a young Akira so reusing the moveset qnd not scrapping the work already done makes a lot of sense.

So our little Ryo could end like this

So cool that you used the Evo 2018 footage, Homestay Akira is a beast.

 

[code l name]

Although Ryo’s characterization is uneven in Shenmue 3 to say the least, there are some signs he at least is more self aware of himself and others than we have previously seen. Two quick examples come instantly to mind-

1) Him realizing Mr. Sun asking him to catch chickens and other unorthodox exercises are there to aid him ultimately learn Bidycheck move

2.) Several times in story when Ryo is beaten up, or when Shenhua is captured he listens to advice of others to slow down, rest, think and come up with a plan before jumping back into the fray. I think that was development especially from temperamental character we saw through most of Shenmue 1 & 2.

Of course he’s last line of dialogue makes no sense given the events that transpired at Old Castle, but I put that down to rushed ending.

 

[WuyingRen]

So today I got Ryo’s Kung Fu level up to 32 and he evolved into a Ryochu. He also learnt a new move called thunder shock which is pretty effective against certain enemies.