Better than Shenmue 1&2: Your thoughts?

Yokosuka said:
Well, there is obviously multiple ways and angles to evaluate a game. The simplest is to quantify your satisfaction over the experience and makes some approximate comparison. But it requires some mental gymnastic as there are different lengths and intensities of satisfaction (and dissatisfaction). Giving some value to such asymmetric types of (dis)satisfaction is subjective.

Another method is to preselect objective areas before evaluate the game or rather the potential of the game to please with predefined material and artistic decisions. But while it makes your evaluation basically objective, the preselection is still a matter of taste and art conception - your vision is said to be academic. However, you can get more solid consensus since the comparison tends to be more formal. That's likely the reason we generally assume S2 is a better game than S1, or in more accurate words, S2 has more better parts than S1.

We're all different human beings but this difference is not extreme. A bad writing can be perceived as such from most of the cultures on the planet, making the value debate not totally illegitimate nonetheless. Don't hide us too much behind the argument of subjectivity. Words are accurate enough to relativize our thoughts and assumptions, and valuating is a good exercise to deduce our own interests towards Shenmue.

There is also the obvious deal with contextuality. You either rate a game for what it is, according the taste, the mood and the convictions you have today, or you rate the performance of the game about doing its original job. From there, you're less evaluating the experience than the developer's merit of having caught the interest of its contemporaries. In that way, Shenmue 1 is probably a better game than Shenmue 2. The latter would have needed a significantly deeper world, mind blowing innovations and darker atmosphere to reach the same level of satisfaction at the time.

Regarding Shenmue 3, I view it like the last Pokemon. Both games are filled with flaws, voids and declines but they're relying on the natural excellence of their respective concept to deliver an enjoyable experience that sometimes we didn't even notice. Respecting the basic blueprint means you will never lose - but obviously, it doesn't mean you win neither.
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I know where you're coming from. Personally, I think it's possible to remain critical and evaluate a game's positives and negatives without falling into the trap of calling something objectively good or objectively bad. Even if you judge aspects of a game based on predefined metrics, like how it compares to similar games, there are so many variables at play that it's impossible to establish a true consensus, so I don't know why some people are so obsessed with objectivity. I honestly think it is just to validate their own feelings.

It's also something that's deeply engrained in video game culture. Many of us grew up obsessing over game magazines and websites, and we convinced ourselves that these people were infallible experts. That the difference between an 8 and an 8.5 truly meant something! I was certainly guilty of this in the early 2000s, and we're seeing it again with the rise of influencers -- if someone's favourite YouTuber says a game sucks it must be true.

A deep and well-considered opinion is valuable in and of itself, whether or not it matches the pitch of the choir. We should judge opinions based on their thoughtfulness, not on whether they match our own or everyone else's :coffee:
 
I can't say it's better than 1 or 2...especially 2.

But I do think it's better than people give it credit for. For all its flaws, the beating heart of Shenmue is still alive within. I'd probably put it above the first game, just because I think much like SII it's a much more focused and confident game all around. The first game felt like they were still finding their way and figuring out what Shenmue even was. SII felt more confident about what it was and SIII continued to build on top of what SII was doing.

So I'd probably rank it higher than the original game, but SII is still the best this series has seen so far,
 
stillsense said:
Gameplay wise 3 triumphs the ambitious originals that is not even a question
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stillsense said:
there is now challenging combat.
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I would say that it's pretty hard to argue that the combat is "unquestionably" better in S3.

stillsense said:
Does anybody else consider this, The best Shenmue game?
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It goes S2, S1, S3 for me but in the interest of the positive nature of this thread here are some things that I think S3 does better than the originals:

- Graphics/movement controls (basically the stuff that you'd expect to advance in 20 years)
- Martial arts training is a good idea that has potential
- Sparring pretty much whenever you want
- Money is more useful as are the things you can buy (a double-edged sword)
- The way Ryo jams the keys into the dumbbell tower (and other interactions that demonstrate some personality)
- QTE fail states are hilarious

It's going to be very hard to top Shenmue 2 imo but the foundation is there for the story to go to some very interesting places and if the gameplay is refined a bit (with way less grinding), and the pace is quickened significantly, S4 will be a game for the ages.
 
No not for me. To me Shenmue 3 almost feels like a empty dev kit to make a Shenmue game, unlike the earlier games it doesn't really feel alive. It has so many of the elements but it often felt disjointed. The art style didn't do it for me (probably a personal thing - but that older almost oil canvas look of S1+2 is still incredible) but I understand they went a different way.

Thats not to say its a bad game I just didn't feel it was a great game - I prefered other games in 2019.

It was actually much bigger and more expansive that I imagined it would be so I am very hopeful for number 4 assuming it gets a healthy budget.

Also its worth saying that I played S1+2 at launch on Dreamcast - playing those games in 2000/1 they were revolutionary. Nothing was a match for those games however everything moves on. So maybe its easier to overlook their shortcomings than people who arrived to the series later on.
 
Well Shenmue III is the last REAL F.R.E.E. Shenmue game, take it or leave it. Yu Suzuki already conceded to IGN Japan that Shenmue 4 will be more mass appeal. Aka a sell out and a standard soulless Assassins Creed type 3rd person adventure game. If he is truly going that route, then the story concludes in Shenmue IV. Mass market has no patience for Ryo's constant training and close calls with Lan Di. Knowing that, I will play Shenmue 1-3 until the wheels fall off. Shenmue IV will probably please O.G. Shenmue fans as much as Shenmue 3 pleased millenials. Think the button press focused combat design choice applied to the whole game.
 
Godokunodan said:
Well Shenmue III is the last REAL F.R.E.E. Shenmue game, take it or leave it. Yu Suzuki already conceded to IGN Japan that Shenmue 4 will be more mass appeal. Aka a sell out and a standard soulless Assassins Creed type 3rd person adventure game. If he is truly going that route, then the story concludes in Shenmue IV. Mass market has no patience for Ryo's constant training and close calls with Lan Di. Knowing that, I will play Shenmue 1-3 until the wheels fall off. Shenmue IV will probably please O.G. Shenmue fans as much as Shenmue 3 pleased millenials. Think the button press focused combat design choice applied to the whole game.
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This is getting sad, mate. You are building a whole narrative around Yu Suzuki considering implementing some light ideas like a better map. The horror!
 
mjqjazzbar said:
This is getting sad, mate. You are building a whole narrative around Yu Suzuki considering implementing some light ideas like a better map. The horror!
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He's right. Just look at that interview. SIV it's gonna be an open world game placed in Los Mantos. FBI contacted Ryo to help them with a murderer called Michael Johnson, alias MJ. You, with your friend Sweet Smoke and his brother Tyder are gonna live a lot of adventures, races in the mountains, parties with prostitutes, lot of explotions and you will own a casino in San Tierro.

10/10 in metacritic, goty. Due the success, YS wanna make Shenmue 5. A misterious creed contacted Ryo. They call themselves "Fassassins".
 
Yeah and now Shenmue 4 will have waypoints. Big improvement. When an Npc says " Go to the arcade and make a right." People get confused. We can have that , right! I'm so psyched for Shenmue 4. We will have gps in a game set in 1987.
 
Man, can you imagine a game set in 1987 having Virtua fighter posters or Sega Saturns!?
 
Godokunodan said:
Well Shenmue III is the last REAL F.R.E.E. Shenmue game, take it or leave it. Yu Suzuki already conceded to IGN Japan that Shenmue 4 will be more mass appeal. Aka a sell out and a standard soulless Assassins Creed type 3rd person adventure game. If he is truly going that route, then the story concludes in Shenmue IV. Mass market has no patience for Ryo's constant training and close calls with Lan Di. Knowing that, I will play Shenmue 1-3 until the wheels fall off. Shenmue IV will probably please O.G. Shenmue fans as much as Shenmue 3 pleased millenials. Think the button press focused combat design choice applied to the whole game.
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So explain to me where he said that?

There's no evidence to suggest anything close. He's got a system ready made and could make Shenmue 4 much faster using it thus keeping costs down. He wants to have a smaller more detailed world, makes sense. Dobuita is small and nice.

Fighting. He said he's going to bring back throws to the system. Why make a new system, again, for Shenmue 4? Not happening. Too expensive.

So he wants to introduce some wait functions. Ok not an issue don't use them if you don't want to. Quest markers, let's see what he does before burying the man. He said he doesn't want any changes to ruin the Shenmue spirit. A quest marker won't do that

EDIT: Why not have a "Shenmue" mode with no quest markers and a "Modern" mode for those who want them. Can be turned on and off in the options. Everyone's happy.
 
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spud1897 said:
EDIT: Why not have a "Shenmue" mode with no quest markers and a "Modern" mode for those who want them. Can be turned on and off in the options. Everyone's happy.
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Problem is that enable an assistance by default often implies a consecutive dependence in the structure design to work well. Disable GPS in The Witcher 3 ingame settings and you will know what I mean.

Obviously, Shenmue is not GTA but Shenmue never ever needed quest markers since the S1&S2 quest markers are disguised in the NPCs words, so it makes Suzuki's statement definitely enigmatic if you put his "S3 was for fans (S4 will not)" in perspective.

If time and money eventually turn to be lacking (which is always happening in some degree), Suzuki could well rely on the default assistance to skip work on the quests design and just focus on the combats and cutscenes.

I don't share Godokunodan's fatalism - I sincerely have big hopes that S4 will be for S3 what S2 was for S1 - but I do think a significant downgrade in design or content (way less voice recording per character?) is more than possible considering the situation.
 
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Godokunodan said:
Yeah and now Shenmue 4 will have waypoints. Big improvement. When an Npc says " Go to the arcade and make a right." People get confused. We can have that , right! I'm so psyched for Shenmue 4. We will have gps in a game set in 1987.
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Shenmue 2 has a feature where almost any NPC will literally walk you to your destination. Explain to me how way points is meaningfully different from that.
 
@spud1897 Yu Suzuki said in Shenmue 4, instead of open areas there will be small closed off areas . To clarify, I didn't mean Shenmue 4s combat would be changed further (besides adding throws) . I meant just as the combat has been changed to the point of being unrecognizable to O.G.s , so shall the rest of the game. Suzuki said the pace of progressing through the story will be 1.5 times faster. (This would be jarring, the pace of the game was perfect for anyone actually paying attention to the game and not spending 50% of the time on Instagram or on the phone). He said Shenmue III was more for the fans, but now he wants to try something new . All of this was in the IGN Japan interview. How much of this sounds like a traditional Shenmue game?
 
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Yokosuka said:
Problem is that enable an assistance by default often implies a consecutive dependence in the structure design to work well. Disable GPS in The Witcher 3 ingame settings and you will know what I mean.

Obviously, Shenmue is not GTA but Shenmue never ever needed quest markers since the S1&S2 quest markers are disguised in the NPCs words, so it makes Suzuki's statement definitely enigmatic if you put his "S3 was for fans (S4 will not)" in perspective.

If time and money eventually turn to be lacking (which is always happening in some degree), Suzuki could well rely on the default assistance to skip work on the quests design and just focus on the combats and cutscenes.

I don't share Godokunodan's fatalism - I sincerely have big hopes that S4 will be for S3 what S2 was for S1 - but I do think a significant downgrade in design or content (way less voice recording per character?) is more than possible considering the situation.
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Thus far, Shenmue has been about exploring towns/cities, which require a lot of art assets to make buildings stand out and, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it, does not facilitate very interesting gameplay. S2 has a bunch of instances where they get kind of creative and you have to narrow down "Man Mo something" or you have to find locations in the massive Kowloon towers but we're going to be on game 4 of that. How much gameplay do you really want to squeeze out of "vague descriptions of buildings"? If Suzuki leans in the direction that the art/design cost isn't worth the rewards then I'm with him.
 
Godokunodan said:
@spud1897 Yu Suzuki said instead of open areas there will be small closed off areas . Suzuki said the pace of progressing through the story will be 1.5 times faster. (This would be jarring, the pace of the game was perfect for anyone actually paying attention to the game and not spending 50% of the time on Instagram or on the phone). He said Shenmue III was more for the fans, but now he wants to try something new . All of this was in the IGN Japan interview. How much of this sounds like a traditional Shenmue game?
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I think we should trust the guy ffs

I'm very glad Payton talked Yu into going 50-50 and focus on gameplay in Shenmue 3, which was always going to be a lower-key story like Yokosuka. Somewhat obvious the budget came into play for the truncated story, although with so much gameplay all done in the engine already--most of the groundwork--sets up Shenmue 4 SIGNIFICANTLY, as well as simply being a fun game to play. Funny concept, yeah?

To be blunt, ch1 had fairly light story pacing and abrupt, anticlimactic end too, btw... i was sorta disappointed HK was hyped for two discs and then the game was over before arriving. Much like Shen1, I appreciate Shen3 for how amazing of an overall experience it is, rather than focus on my disappointment I had to wait for Shen2 then, and Shen4 now.

I cannot wait to see what the 70-30 new-old model Suzuki had in mind before Payton suggested doing 50-50, which was definitely a wise decision for fans old and new since there was a gigantic 18 year gap plus kickstarting based on nostalgia; aside from aforementioned engine readiness for sequels.
 
@xatruio the only old Shenmue activity that seems out of place in Shenmue 3 is turtle racing. When I first played the Shen 3 Kickstarter Backer demo on PC, and turtle racing was in it, I was like WTF, this should have stayed on the Dreamcast. There's no way a grown man is going to want to race turtles that move at like .0000000005 miles per hour. Everything else that made it over from the old games is freaking great, yes, even Lucky Hit.
 
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