Budget Is NOT An Excuse

My hope is if a Shenmue 4 ever sees the light of day, maybe not remake, but retcon the shit out of it and start the game after the fight with Mr muscles and say Lan Di is in Baisha, or something and have Ryo go there. I think literally anything would be better than what we got. They cannot incorporate this ending in the upcoming plot. It makes no sense.
 
And more of the, "it didn't reveal story and expectations that *I* wanted, therefore it sucks," bullshit.
I’m not going to defend what anyone is saying, but this isn’t a fair argument. The story in Shenmue 3 sucks in the same way that Game of Thrones Season 8 sucks or the Star Wars prequels suck. Fans who have been following the story turned on it for a reason, you’re free to disagree but you’re likely in the minority. It has nothing to do with the story not conforming to individual tastes, it’s that the story does not adhere to basic storytelling conventions and falls apart at the slightest scrutiny.

Dude, we have no goddamn clue about Lan Di's character still to this day and there is an incredible chance that the next game will flesh it out further.
Not everyone thinks that “wait until the next game” is a valid excuse.


Jesus Christ, just because you expected something that you had no idea would actually happen, doesn't make it bad or, "one dimensional."
There are basic ways that stories work, and expectations that have been set for the story by prior games that Shenmue, frankly, has to live up to.

Go into everything in life without expectations and you'll find that you'll be less disappointed, happier and perhaps even lead a more fulfilling life, instead of wasting hours a day on an internet site, taking the piss out of something you're supposed to be a fan of.

This entitlement crap is ridiculous.
First of all, people spent hundreds of dollars to make this game happen, so they’re definitely entitled to SOMETHING. Especially things (like Baisha) that were promised. Second of all, many of us waited 18 years for this game, we’re allowed to criticize it just as you’re free to defend it; if you want to argue that it was a well told story: do that, but don’t complain about people complaining, that makes the atmosphere more toxic, not less.
 
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When people parrot the same thing in 50 different threads, it gets tiresome.

In addition, no, there aren't, "basic stuff ways that stories work," (that doesn't read correctly, btw; did you mean something else, by any chance?); a story/plot can be told in a variety of ways, with a variety of methods; because YOU (not specifically you, iknif) did not like the method and it didn't live up to YOUR expectations, does not make something objectively bad.

We've discussed this before and I don't want to do it again; instead of people throwing a label at a game, just say you didn't like it because it didn't live up to expectations, not, "it didn't live up to my expectations so its shit."

Finally, not complaining about complaining; challenging someone for their slanted view, that is driving even more negativity to something.

Sick of this crap.
 
I'm going to make a slightly controversial point here around Shenmue's basic story that we were discussing in the staff chat.

Shenmue 1: Hunting people who came to the dojo/Sailors.

Shenmue 2: 3/4 of that game is where's Yuanda Zhu

Shenmue 3: Save/find Shenhua's father.

The basic 1 core objective idea is essentially the same. What Shenmue III lacks in some areas is the fleshing out around that. Shenmue 1 has the development of the mirrors. Shenmue II the Xiuing story arc and mystery around Zhu.

Shenmue III doesn't have that. I understand the criticism around that I really do, there's plenty of story elements I wanted more of. However think of this for a moment, had they gone sod it, story story story would we have been sat here criticizing the game for being too linear/boring/not having enough Shenmueness about it? You can bet your bottom dollar we would be because as great as the Shenmue story is, the game is more than that. It is about atmosphere, feeling the world, living thorugh it. Shenmue III even with its sometimes lacking for story did that. Yu Suzuki created a game true in spirit to the previous ones while giving us a story, albeit in some eyes not enough. Did I want more? Yes but the game captured the same emotion (maybe not as often) as the previous entries for me, if it's doing that then they're doing something right.

Also another point, Shenmue 1 was much slower, built foundations but didn't tell a huge amount really. Shenmue II went nuts on story and action, built upon the previously told story and engine. I've every confidence Shenmue 4 would deliver in the same way.
 
Shenmue III doesn't have that. I understand the criticism around that I really do, there's plenty of story elements I wanted more of. However think of this for a moment, had they gone sod it, story story story would we have been sat here criticizing the game for being too linear/boring/not having enough Shenmueness about it? You can bet your bottom dollar we would be because as great as the Shenmue story is, the game is more than that. It is about atmosphere, feeling the world, living thorugh it.

You're right, it is about those things, though ironically I think that 'Shenmue feel' was best captured in Bailu Village, which is a small environment but felt lovingly handcrafted to a tee.

Yu Suzuki once said that Shenmue III would expand 'inward, not outward', and yet, in Niaowu it ended up with one of the biggest environments of the saga to date, and deeper elements like the affinity system were scrapped.

I think had the game stuck to that 'inward' scope, and Niaowu made 1/3 or 1/2 its size, the right balance could easily have been achieved. Shenmue's 'feel' and its story don't have to be mutually exclusive!
 
I just can't get my head around how they think they would get the attention of new players when seasoned veterans, who admittedly are more forgiving, are seeing plotholes and finding the story inconsistent or better stated non-existent, I myself have not butchered the game more due to the fact Its Shenmue, THE only game i truly love and adore ( just above shadow hearts 1 and 2).

Before playing shenmue 3 I went on youtube and watched remastered movies of both 1 and 2 .. Each one weighing in at 6 and 11 hours respectively; of those hours, mostly everything is either cutscenes, QTE story sections and FREE battles. If you combine everything in Shenmue 3 I barely think youd reach an hour and a half. *sigh* It just upsets me. 😢
 
Not puffing up at all, seriously.

But man, the mods are always bang on and always put things so eloquently. lol
 
I'm going to make a slightly controversial point here around Shenmue's basic story that we were discussing in the staff chat.

Shenmue 1: Hunting people who came to the dojo/Sailors.

Shenmue 2: 3/4 of that game is where's Yuanda Zhu

Shenmue 3: Save/find Shenhua's father.

The basic 1 core objective idea is essentially the same. What Shenmue III lacks in some areas is the fleshing out around that. Shenmue 1 has the development of the mirrors. Shenmue II the Xiuing story arc and mystery around Zhu.

Shenmue III doesn't have that. I understand the criticism around that I really do, there's plenty of story elements I wanted more of. However think of this for a moment, had they gone sod it, story story story would we have been sat here criticizing the game for being too linear/boring/not having enough Shenmueness about it? You can bet your bottom dollar we would be because as great as the Shenmue story is, the game is more than that. It is about atmosphere, feeling the world, living thorugh it. Shenmue III even with its sometimes lacking for story did that. Yu Suzuki created a game true in spirit to the previous ones while giving us a story, albeit in some eyes not enough. Did I want more? Yes but the game captured the same emotion (maybe not as often) as the previous entries for me, if it's doing that then they're doing something right.

Also another point, Shenmue 1 was much slower, built foundations but didn't tell a huge amount really. Shenmue II went nuts on story and action, built upon the previously told story and engine. I've every confidence Shenmue 4 would deliver in the same way.
At every interviews from fans since yu suzuki came back on stage, even before shenmue3, it was all about story story story and I complained by the lack of question about gameplay and cinematography, so I won't bet my bottom dollar that a good portion of fans wouldn't have been as critic if the game was about story story story.
 
When people parrot the same thing in 50 different threads, it gets tiresome.
Agreed, if it’s derailing the conversation, there’s no need for that.

In addition, no, there aren't, "basic stuff ways that stories work," (that doesn't read correctly, btw; did you mean something else, by any chance?); a story/plot can be told in a variety of ways,
I meant “there are basic ways that stories work” (I edited my original post) and there are. Things like the Niao Sun reveal need certain things to “work” properly. The audience needs context to understand why the reveal is a big deal that the game doesn’t provide. If you didn’t know who Niao Sun was from concept art from over decade ago, why would you care that this random woman was actually a different random woman with red hair?

It’s not about being “objective”, you’re free to like and dislike whatever you want but there are basic storytelling rules that make things effective. It’s why Dou Niu is an effective villain and Mr. Muscles isn’t.

Also another point, Shenmue 1 was much slower, built foundations but didn't tell a huge amount really. Shenmue II went nuts on story and action, built upon the previously told story and engine. I've every confidence Shenmue 4 would deliver in the same way.
Here’s hoping!
 
At every interviews from fans since yu suzuki came back on stage, even before shenmue3, it was all about story story story and I complained by the lack of question about gameplay and cinematography, so I won't bet my bottom dollar that a good portion of fans wouldn't have been as critic if the game was about story story story.
We will never know but I'd wager anything that it would be same as it is now in terms of critique
 
Shenmue III doesn't have that. I understand the criticism around that I really do, there's plenty of story elements I wanted more of. However think of this for a moment, had they gone sod it, story story story would we have been sat here criticizing the game for being too linear/boring/not having enough Shenmueness about it? You can bet your bottom dollar we would be because as great as the Shenmue story is, the game is more than that. It is about atmosphere, feeling the world, living thorugh it. Shenmue III even with its sometimes lacking for story did that.
However would the backlash have been as potent? I doubt it. It also may have made some mainstream outlets perk up and take notice that, hey these people who have been clamoring for 18 years kind of have a point, this story is pretty interesting. Unless, you know, the story is actually really bad and wouldn't that be the biggest twist of all?

Yu Suzuki created a game true in spirit to the previous ones while giving us a story, albeit in some eyes not enough. Did I want more? Yes but the game captured the same emotion (maybe not as often) as the previous entries for me, if it's doing that then they're doing something right.
I wish I could share this sentiment, I really do, but imo YS changed too much. I don't like the kung fu level (I remember a time on this very dojo where the thought of Shenmue having an RPG style leveling system was heresy), I don't like the stamina system, I don't like the constant need to grind for money, etc. I think that from a pure gameplay perspective, if they had done nothing, and left all of S2's systems intact, it would be a better game. Where Shenmue 3 feels most like "Shenmue" to me is when Ryo remembers his father by the tree in Ternary Spring, the talks with Shenhua, and if I squint a little, what the ending castle could have been.

I'll pick one moment from S2 to compare:


(Time is 26:29 if that didn't work) That's Ren and Ryo high-fiving after being chased by Dou Niu's transsexual lover wielding a chainsaw. First of all, that single sentence is more interesting than almost anything that happens in S3 but more importantly, that moment is earned. Ren spends the whole game treating Ryo like shit and nearly getting him killed, and Ryo doesn't seem to like him much but over the course of the game, they learn to respect and even like each other, culminating in that awesome no-look high five. I could talk about Ren and Ryo's relationship throughout S2 for literally hours but suffice it to say that Ren has nothing to do with the main plot, literally every scene he's in could be considered "filler"; has anyone ever complained about that? Furthermore, is there any character introduced in Shenmue 3 that even comes close to earning that kind of moment?

Even if everything about the game was perfect, without moments like that, it's just not Shenmue to me.
 
Anyone who thinks this game is good is straight up lying to themselves. The incoherent dialogue made me wince with embarassment. Very little makes sense and it´s like it´s been written for children who have no experience of human interaction, the characters are completely devoid of any sincere emotion. Nowhere is this better highlighted than with Ryo and Shenhua´s interactions with eachother. So stunted and awkward I couldn´t wait for each instance to end. Again, it´s like the people writing the dialogue have never interacted with other human beings before.

18 years I´ve waited for this.

Positives, almost felt to some degree that it was playing Shenmue at some points in Niaowu. The game ends so abruptly. The characters final lines made me cringe, why would Ryo be issuing threats to Lan Di after he just got made to look like a clown in a fight a day before? It just doesn´t make sense. I think people are dreaming if they think they´re getting a 4th game, who the hell would want to pick up a sequel to that?
 
Anyone who thinks this game is good is straight up lying to themselves. The incoherent dialogue made me wince with embarassment. Very little makes sense and it´s like it´s been written for children who have no experience of human interaction, the characters are completely devoid of any sincere emotion. Nowhere is this better highlighted than with Ryo and Shenhua´s interactions with eachother. So stunted and awkward I couldn´t wait for each instance to end. Again, it´s like the people writing the dialogue have never interacted with other human beings before.

18 years I´ve waited for this.

Positives, almost felt to some degree that it was playing Shenmue at some points in Niaowu. The game ends so abruptly. The characters final lines made me cringe, why would Ryo be issuing threats to Lan Di after he just got made to look like a clown in a fight a day before? It just doesn´t make sense. I think people are dreaming if they think they´re getting a 4th game, who the hell would want to pick up a sequel to that?
The writing, at least in English, is really bad. I agree. Shame they don't seem to get that over in Japan. Add in the English dub and yikes. It's a shame such a small fanbase is divided over stuff like whether or not the dub and writing should be bad to keep the 'campy effect' or high quality. I think they're better off going for quality, personally... The negative articles write themselves when they keep such poor writing in the series.
 
I think people are dreaming if they think they´re getting a 4th game, who the hell would want to pick up a sequel to that?

Oh, but we're getting a 4th game and I bet it'd sell even more than Shenmue III. Many people didn't play I & II so they are likely to hesitate before buying III. But in one year or two, many more players will be familiar with Ryo's saga and will be ready and positive for a 4th game. Personally I played the first two games on Dreamcast, joined this forum... well, I think it was 2002. I joined every initiative to bring to light Shenmue III... I can't even explain how happy I was at E3 2015 :) and... I've finished SH3 two days ago. I loved the ending and seeing the main characters almost climbing a steep part of the Great Wall looked to me like a metaphor of us all, both Shenmue fans and, why not, human beings.
 
Oh, but we're getting a 4th game and I bet it'd sell even more than Shenmue III. Many people didn't play I & II so they are likely to hesitate before buying III. But in one year or two, many more players will be familiar with Ryo's saga and will be ready and positive for a 4th game. Personally I played the first two games on Dreamcast, joined this forum... well, I think it was 2002. I joined every initiative to bring to light Shenmue III... I can't even explain how happy I was at E3 2015 :) and... I've finished SH3 two days ago. I loved the ending and seeing the main characters almost climbing a steep part of the Great Wall looked to me like a metaphor of us all, both Shenmue fans and, why not, human beings.

Christ, I wish I was this easily pleased
 
Christ, I wish I was this easily pleased
I wish I still got off on being a smug jerk 30+ years into my life. It's a video game you don't like. You'll live, Heartbeats. Better luck next time.

This is the 'reasonable' criticism the Shenmue Dojo veterans are afraid of posting: attacking other people for liking something they don't like.
 
I wish I still got off on being a smug jerk 30+ years into my life. It's a video game you don't like. You'll live, Heartbeats. Better luck next time.

This is the 'reasonable' criticism the Shenmue Dojo veterans are afraid of posting: attacking other people for liking something they don't like.
calling me a "smug jerk" isn´t an attack then? Ok
 
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