Budget Is NOT An Excuse

[spud1897]

Because it's likely to be longer than 4 games.

Theres plenty of reasons why, budget, mechanics, decision, lack of script, direction, time constraints.

Its you choosing not to accept those reasons. I'm not excusing the light story but am accepting of the circumstances the game was made. The question comes under where the resource went and this is where theres the split

Some would be kicking off about a more linear version with minimal mini-games saying it's not Shenmue. Much like people being upset about a lack of story not being Shenmue. Either way someone was going to get upset given the budget.

 

[WuyingRen]

The more I reflect on the game, the more I find myself agreeing with the title of this thread.

Adding in a few extra lines of dialogue with the masters, Lan Di and shrine girl (maybe even a couple of flashbacks with Iwao and Sunming) and a couple of extra interactions with NS would have made a massive difference and wouldn’t have added much to the overall development costs. I dare say coding the golf / pail toss / basketball mini games took more time to put together that the aforementioned would have. I’m curious whether models with rigging exist for Lan Di’s goons too, as if they do, making that encounter into a battle would have dramatically improved the ending.

I’d have happily sacrificed a few of the mini games and a capsule set or two for a better story. I’m now curious how easy it would be to mod those extra conversations into the game.

 

[iknifaugood]

Some would be kicking off about a more linear version with minimal mini-games saying it's not Shenmue. Much like people being upset about a lack of story not being Shenmue. Either way someone was going to get upset given the budget.

Very true. The only thing that's baffling to me is Suzuki's insistence on telling this story (trying for basically the last 20 years to move the chains) and then seemingly deciding to make story the lowest priority; I can't imagine that he just needed to get the story of Ryo taking on the Red Snakes off his chest before retirement; I've seen the Project Berkley video.

 

[Heartbeats]

Very true. The only thing that's baffling to me is Suzuki's insistence on telling this story (trying for basically the last 20 years to move the chains) and then seemingly deciding to make story the lowest priority; I can't imagine that he just needed to get the story of Ryo taking on the Red Snakes off his chest before retirement; I've seen the Project Berkley video.

Exactly!

 

[mjqjazzbar]

[Part 3] Shenmue Discussion with Yu Suzuki & Developers | IGN Japan

A blog on the Shenmue series of games from Yu Suzuki with a mission to translate articles, videos and updates for English-speaking fans.

www.phantomriverstone.com

Suzuki explains: "There was a big difference in available resources this time. When it comes down to it, Shenmue is not a real story but a game - not a movie or anything else. It's a game at its core."

Shenmue I and II introduced an increasing number of unresolved story elements as the game progressed. Without giving too much away, does Shenmue III start to address these?

"Okayasu reprimanded me about that," jokes Suzuki. "He told me, 'Yu-san, you can't go on like this with an ever-growing number of mysteries. They have to be resolved!'"

Okayasu confirms this with a nod.

"He always wants to add more mysteries," he says, gesturing toward a laughing Suzuki. "He loves putting in new ones. Then he tells me, 'I'll leave it over to you to get them resolved'. That won't do!"

Takeuchi: "Reaching the end is naturally a main objective for any game, but Shenmue is more than that. To me, Shenmue is what you might call an 'environment game'. It's a soothing game, and the more you become pulled into its world, the more you realize what sets it apart from other games."

Okayasu: "One big difference with Shenmue III compared to Shenmue I and II, is that this time we had several development staff who were fans of the original games. They gave various presentations to Yu-san to encourage the inclusion in Shenmue III of the parts they loved most about those games. So, from in that sense, players who enjoyed the first two games are sure to enjoy the new one also".

Suzuki: "I think of lot of people want to know how the story continues. But I'd feel sad if anyone decided to give up on getting stuck part-way through the game, for example at a battle or on a quest. We're in an era now where you don't need to remain stuck needlessly - you can look for help on the net, or adjust your difficulty in the settings. So for people who get stuck but want to know what happens, you can make use of the Easy setting within the game, and I really hope everyone plays through to the end. Then you can find other parts to enjoy on your second play."

Well, there you have it.

 

[spud1897]

Very true. The only thing that's baffling to me is Suzuki's insistence on telling this story (trying for basically the last 20 years to move the chains) and then seemingly deciding to make story the lowest priority; I can't imagine that he just needed to get the story of Ryo taking on the Red Snakes off his chest before retirement; I've seen the Project Berkley video.

I think you and @tomboz make valid points which is answered to some degree in the interview switch has translated/the post above here. Yes it would have gone a long way just to flesh out some story elements and I think add to a solid game base. That and I maintain the ending was heavily cut down, probably due to budget.

What I don't think we will ever know is how much went into what and why. We get some idea but we won't ever know the final reasons behind it, certainly not for a while.

I also maintain that Shenmue III is a concept game for establishing the systems for a Shenmue 4 and beyond, whether people like said systems is a matter of discussion and opinion.

 

[Mystere]

You do realise quality of script is directly tied into, wait what was it again? Oh yeah, the budget!

you seem to be failing to see the bigger picture. It’s all about the budget.

Would this be the same budget spent on making Niaowu one of the biggest Shenmue environments to date? A sprawling mass of arcades, gambling, stores, food stalls and nary an NPC walking in the whole place? The same budget poured into developing a dozen different Mini-Games, and on designing and implementing a clunky and unnecessary stamina system?

IMO the bigger picture here is not that budgets are finite --- of course they are --- it's that the money spent on all this redundant BS should've been spent on the script, and giving some depth to the 1-dimensional anime tropes who are apparently our allies in Shenmue III (sorry shrine maiden and fat guy, I don't recall your names... blame the script! But thanks for risking your lives in comedic fashion at the end!!)

It's that a boatload of extra space and fluff was added to Shenmue III while deeper features like the affinity system (KS goal - reached) were unfortunately scrapped. Basically some bad resource management it seems.

 

[Budgiecat]

Would this be the same budget spent on making Niaowu one of the biggest Shenmue environments to date? A sprawling mass of arcades, gambling, stores, food stalls and nary an NPC walking in the whole place? The same budget poured into developing a dozen different Mini-Games, and on designing and implementing a clunky and unnecessary stamina system?

IMO the bigger picture here is not that budgets are finite --- of course they are --- it's that the money spent on all this redundant BS should've been spent on the script, and giving some depth to the 1-dimensional anime tropes who are apparently our allies in Shenmue III (sorry shrine maiden and fat guy, I don't recall your names... blame the script! But thanks for risking your lives in comedic fashion at the end!!)

It's that a boatload of extra space and fluff was added to Shenmue III while deeper features like the affinity system (KS goal - reached) were unfortunately scrapped. Basically some bad resource management it seems.

Its almost like there are different departments for development or something...

 

[Mystere]

Its almost like there are different departments for development or something...

No shit, Sherlock. Did I say the development team should've do the re-write? No. I said that's where more of the existing budget should've been allocated - the script.

 

[Bule]

The game doesn't hang together as well as the first two games - that's partly down to budget, I think. It is a rougher game than 1 & 2.

Having said that, immediately after finishing the game, I've started a second playthrough. The game is much better in Japanese with English subtitles - it has the effect of making the game feel more cohesive somehow, in my opinion.

Biggest issue is the camera direction. There shouldn't necessarily be multiple camera angles during character dialogue if the camera stays on the same character. Switching from one floating moving camera to another floating moving camera, or resetting the existing camera, whilst still focused on the same character, makes the game look glitchy.

I thought the character development was slightly lacking in places, but enjoyed the scenes in the final section with Lin Shilling and Master Hsu - they had an 80s movie vibe. Burrowing Full Mooning my way across the walkway with Ren whilst Lin Shiling and Master Hsu broom and bump baddies into the water amused my bouche

 

[Lan Di-sama]

Shenmue I and II introduced an increasing number of unresolved story elements as the game progressed. Without giving too much away, does Shenmue III start to address these?

"Okayasu reprimanded me about that," jokes Suzuki. "He told me, 'Yu-san, you can't go on like this with an ever-growing number of mysteries. They have to be resolved!'"

Okayasu confirms this with a nod.

"He always wants to add more mysteries," he says, gesturing toward a laughing Suzuki. "He loves putting in new ones. Then he tells me, 'I'll leave it over to you to get them resolved'. That won't do!"

My beef with this quote is that Shenmue 3 really didn't introduce any new mysteries. And it completely ignored the previous game's biggest ones (sword, giant mirrors, Shenmue tree) implying those weren't important at all to begin with. The mysteries it did touch on were either information we already learned in prior games that were being introduced seemingly for first time (Zhao Sunming) or new information that actually contradicted what we've learned in prior games (Shenhua talked about mirrors an ancient emporer made being a legend of the village in Shenmue 2, now the mirrors are just 70 years old and nobody in the village has a clue about anything).

The complaint about cleaning up the story not being related to budget is 100% valid. There are dozens of fans who would have done this for free! The script is so thin it would not have taken long at all for someone with fresh knowledge of the first games' story to edit into something a bit more sensible.

Maybe it comes down to Suzuki viewing the story differently from the fans. He has 11 chapters written that he draws from and adapts into game form. That's probably the material he knows and what he referenced from to make Shenmue 3 - not his previous adaptations. What we consider canon (Shenmue I and II) was tweaked from what's actually canon (the chapter books - which may be fairly basic outlines of a story for all we know) so not every plot point from those games is going to resonate in future adaptations.

I will say it was a bitter pill to swallow. Something the kids in all of us have waited on for so long actually materialized - things like that don't usually happen and it was damn cool to scratch that itch. Shame it didn't meet my personal expectations story-wise. At the end of it, I am still invested, and have been enjoying discussing it all with the community here. And I actually blazed through a 30hr video game - haven't done that in 15 years. I had a ton of fun and really hope there's a Shenmue 4.

 

[SMDzero]

The more I reflect on the game, the more I find myself agreeing with the title of this thread.

Adding in a few extra lines of dialogue with the masters, Lan Di and shrine girl (maybe even a couple of flashbacks with Iwao and Sunming) and a couple of extra interactions with NS would have made a massive difference and wouldn’t have added much to the overall development costs. I dare say coding the golf / pail toss / basketball mini games took more time to put together that the aforementioned would have. I’m curious whether models with rigging exist for Lan Di’s goons too, as if they do, making that encounter into a battle would have dramatically improved the ending.

I’d have happily sacrificed a few of the mini games and a capsule set or two for a better story. I’m now curious how easy it would be to mod those extra conversations into the game.

It would be sad Suzuki was forced to cut Baisha because the fans kept bugging him to pour precious limited resources into forklift driving, old character cameos, and mini games.

Fan were probably like "screw this newfangled character perspective system... bring back forklifts, Nozomi, Chai and Lucky Hit!"

 

[SMDzero]

-

 

[Lan Di-sama]

It would be sad Suzuki was forced to cut Baisha because the fans kept bugging him to pour precious limited resources into forklift driving, old character cameos, and mini games.

Fan were probably like "screw this newfangled character perspective system... bring back forklifts, Nozomi, Chai and Lucky Hit!"

That's not true at all. Suzuki has mentioned on multiple occasions that (and I'm paraphrasing) while he feels indebted to the fans and backers, he knows the fans trust in his vision to make the game he wants. Sure there was a bit of fanservice, and game surveys asked for our input on things like mini games and forklifts, they still ultimately made the game they wanted to (budget constraints notwithstanding).

I don't recall seeing anyone "demanding" anything and if they did I don't think it would have had much effect.

 

[Machsi]

That's not true at all. Suzuki has mentioned on multiple occasions that (and I'm paraphrasing) while he feels indebted to the fans and backers, he knows the fans trust in his vision to make the game he wants. Sure there was a bit of fanservice, and game surveys asked for our input on things like mini games and forklifts, they still ultimately made the game they wanted to (budget constraints notwithstanding).

I don't recall seeing anyone "demanding" anything and if they did I don't think it would have had much effect.

Yu seems like a my way or the highway kind of guy when it comes to S3.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

Yu seems like a my way or the highway kind of guy when it comes to S3.

I agree. That being said, they totally DID dump too many resources into those trivial things and did make some extremely unfortunate cuts. But I think it's wrong to blame the fans when ultimately, YsNet chose what to scrap. I don't think anyone requesting forklifts and darts considered sacrificing a third of the game for it.

 

[shredingskin]

You guys are talking like they needed to clone Cervantes to have somewhat good writing, come on (specially for a game that supposedly it's already scripted, unless all the YS notebooks just repeat "thugs thugs thugs, then travel to this other place").

For example think about the "superduper ancient scroll" if instead of just being a money gate was the one in the monastery and Ryo had to prove to the monk that he was Iwao son by showing him the sword handguard. It would have narrative impact, Ryo defeating his opponent using Iwao's technique, could be a place for explanation about Iwao, it would tie to the theme.

What if to talk to the fisherman you need to have reference from the fat guy that was his pupil, but he wouldn't give you the thumbs up, so you find out that the broom girl actually brings him food sometimes and you try to make her put a good word for you, but he is still distrustful and you have to take the food from his hands (ala the coin in hand type of kung fu trope). That would integrate all the characters that ultimately are your "best friends" that are willing to put their life on risk going with you at the end of your journey, and make time to give them actual characterization. Hell, make the training with the fisherman ryo trying to keep the balance while the fat guy is also on the raft.

That's just off the top of my head, there are hundreds of scenes that could be better with a couple of twists, it's not about budget, in the game the lines and the locations are already there, instead what we get is a goose chase from location to location, with the reusable formula of "money gatekeep, training gatekeep" for enemies that are just not interesting at all, it's the writing that matters, and it's not a budget problem.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

I just beat the game a few minutes ago. Not sure how I feel. All I know is that the moment I actually got to fight Lan Di I screamed, “Oh, WHAAAAAAT!!!”

For me, that one moment made up for the rest of the game’s many shortcomings, gameplay and narrative-wise. Almost.

 

[iknifaugood]

You guys are talking like they needed to clone Cervantes to have somewhat good writing, come on

Not every day you see a Don Quixote reference on a video game forum. Nice.

For example think about the "superduper ancient scroll" if instead of just being a money gate was the one in the monastery and Ryo had to prove to the monk that he was Iwao son by showing him the sword handguard. It would have narrative impact, Ryo defeating his opponent using Iwao's technique, could be a place for explanation about Iwao, it would tie to the theme.

What if to talk to the fisherman you need to have reference from the fat guy that was his pupil, but he wouldn't give you the thumbs up, so you find out that the broom girl actually brings him food sometimes and you try to make her put a good word for you, but he is still distrustful and you have to take the food from his hands (ala the coin in hand type of kung fu trope). That would integrate all the characters that ultimately are your "best friends" that are willing to put their life on risk going with you at the end of your journey, and make time to give them actual characterization. Hell, make the training with the fisherman ryo trying to keep the balance while the fat guy is also on the raft.

That's just off the top of my head, there are hundreds of scenes that could be better with a couple of twists, it's not about budget, in the game the lines and the locations are already there, instead what we get is a goose chase from location to location, with the reusable formula of "money gatekeep, training gatekeep" for enemies that are just not interesting at all, it's the writing that matters, and it's not a budget problem.

No! For you see this is totally Yu Suzuki's vision and he totally had this planned out for the last 20 years and totally needs 4 more games to properly tell the story cuz pacing and also Shenmue isn't even about the story anyway that's why we waited 18 years for a third part, so we could drive a forklift again and talk to random NPCs who lead us to other random NPCs.

 

[Sh3ppy]

Would this be the same budget spent on making Niaowu one of the biggest Shenmue environments to date? A sprawling mass of arcades, gambling, stores, food stalls and nary an NPC walking in the whole place? The same budget poured into developing a dozen different Mini-Games, and on designing and implementing a clunky and unnecessary stamina system?

Yes, that exact same budget. Look I’m not saying there are no merits to the complaints that the story could have been better in multiple ways, but if Yu had cut out environments, mini games, food stalls etc, you would find people would complain it’s missing that Shenmue feeling. I for one am glad that it included all those things that you seem to be prepared to trim out. I loved the fact Niaowu was as massive and full of everything we know Shenmue to be. I feel what we got was a gigantic achievement considering the resources and yes, budget. Mismanagement of said budget might be claimed by some but I would never dream of pretending to know better than Yu how to allocate said resources.