Did Deep Silver Do Shenmue III Justice?

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

Do not misunderstand, I am very grateful that a publisher invested in Suzuki's vision for Shenmue. However with hindsight on our side, did Deep Silver really help Shenmue III or harm Shenmue? First of all, there's the matter of downloadable content that could have easily been in the game. Was this content stripped from the game so Deep Silver could make money off of it? And the more important question, is there any content that was made for Shenmue III that was cut on the behest of Deep Silver? After all, more time in the oven means more money spent.

Then thanks to the recent interview with Biscay, we now know that the Epic deal was one hundred percent Deep Silver's doing to recoup their losses. However as we all know, this decision did not sit well with potential buyers. Not only did it cost Shenmue III some sales, but tarnished Suzuki's reputation and every other announcement was met with suspicion afterwards.

Now, I agree that if a publisher had not stepped in we would have gotten a very bare bones game. That being said, critics of Shenmue III have pointed out that a lower budget would have allowed for the game to be more focused. This is even reinforced by the fact that Suzuki himself stated during the Kickstarter campaign, that Shenmue III's development would be tiered based on the funding he received.

So the question remains, was Deep Silver really the right publisher for Shenmue III? Did they really do the series justice? Or was the series given the typical AAA treatment?

 

[code l name]

Unfortunately I feel like in their situation Ysnet was in almost a no-win situation. Prior to the KS campaign we’ve had confirmation they tried shopping the project around but received no publisher support.

After the groundbreaking amount raised it allowed them to get a publisher but as we know that came along with strings attached. I too am of the mindset without DS the game would have been even more barebones then we received, so for that I am thankful.

However from a marketing/promotional side I felt they really did the bare minimum and failed in many ways, so perhaps internally they didn’t think it was worth their time or further effort.

 

[spud1897]

It's a tough one and this is only my view but overall I dont think they did enough for the franchise.

The good
Collectors editions were superb.
We know the investment fleshed out the game.
Got some good spots at some game shows.
The last 2 trailers were good

The bad.
No where near enough promotion.
Lack of communication/fan engagement
The epic deal and the way it was handled
Lack of understanding of what the franchise is

 

[Rydeen]

I'm quite happy with the game we got, so this is a bit of a difficult question for me. I can go back to it again and again, like the first two games, because of the variety it offers, and all of the details in the world, so it would be hard for me to give those things up in an alternate scenario. Suzuki mentioned in an interview that, presumably after Deep Silver was on board, the team just started building up Bailu with activities, and once they had seen how much Bailu grew, they sort of replicated it in Niaowu. If that hadn't happened, I imagine it would have been a much more straightforward experience, and one I wouldn't be as interested in playing again in the future.

Outside of my own personal sphere, I think Deep Silver potentially caused irreparable damage to the brand, Yu Suzuki, YSNet, and maybe even Sega (although that last one is the least of my concerns in this scenario). From that standpoint, I don't believe Deep Silver was at all the right publisher for Shenmue III, but they were the ones willing the give it a chance, and YS took them up on that offer. So, here we are. I do kind of wonder what the fan reception would have been if the game had stayed that more bare bones plan, with just the kickstarter funding. I was always going to be okay with whatever we got, as long as it wasn't a complete train wreck and/or didn't emulate modern games too much. Many seem to think they'd be happy with just a linear, story driven Shenmue, but I'm not so sure about that.

 

[lavrentis]

The box art and promotional material looks cheap.

Look at this

and this

then compare with this

Even the re-releases look better

maybe a budget issue. It just looks cheap.

 

[Thomasina]

I would have preferred a more barebones game. I think a more focused experience would have gotten better reviews.

The epic situation hurt pretty bad.

I think ultimately if the game was good, then it would be perceived as a good game. I don't think Deep Silver's involvement hurt the end product in any way. Of course there could always be better promotion but the game is what it is, so what exactly are they going to advertise and to whom?

 

[Rydeen]

The box art and promotional material looks cheap.

Not really disagreeing, but that might be due to YSNet, in part. If they don't/can't provide Deep Silver with promotional artwork like the the first two games, DS might just have to work with what they have. Does Deep Silver even have production staff that could create the artwork for promotional materials?

I think ultimately if the game was good, then it would be perceived as a good game.

I think there are plenty of people who perceive it to be a good game.

 

[WuyingRen]

I’d give them a B-.

They did what was required of them when it came to investment, production and distribution, but I think they could have done a better job marketing the game.

I still think the Epic deal was the right choice, but they should have done a better job pre-empting the backlash and planned for how it was going to be handled before the announcement (which itself, was very poorly handled).

Could another publisher have done better? Perhaps; but marketing the sequel to a twenty year old game was always going to be difficult (especially as the game received mixed reviews and had very few set piece moments to show off in trailers) and an exclusivity deal was always going to cause some level of controversy even if handled better by the publisher and developer.

It would seem that there were no other publishers willing to take on the challenge, so it’s hard to be too critical knowing that it was more than likely them or nothing.

 

[lavrentis]

If you compare the hype from E3 2015 to the hype at launch, it pretty much launched with no fanfare. Deep Silver has to be blamed for this.

 

[WuyingRen]

If you compare the hype from E3 2015 to the hype at launch, it pretty much launched with no fanfare. Deep Silver has to be blamed for this.

Why? What should they have done differently?

 

[orient]

It's a difficult one. Could the game have done with more money and time? Yes. Could it have been promoted better? Hmm, probably. Can I blame them for not wanting to overspend and overcommit to a niche sequel to an 18 year old game, especially when no one else would? No, not really.

 

[Thomasina]

I think there are plenty of people who perceive it to be a good game.

My point was I don't think Deep Silver did anything to harm the end product.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

It would seem that there were no other publishers willing to take on the challenge, so it’s hard to be too critical knowing that it was more than likely them or nothing.

You would think that having a record breaking Kickstarter would give Suzuki some leverage. I guess not.

My point was I don't think Deep Silver did anything to harm the end product.

Maybe not the end product, however their poor handling of the Epic deal did not help at all. If that deal didn't happen or was handled better, I think some people would be more forgiving of the game's faults. If another crowdfunding campaign happened, there might even be some who are willing to give the series another chance. The whole budget defense would carry more weight; assuming that Suzuki took the criticisms leveled against Shenmue III to heart. Sadly though, now there are some who believe Shenmue III got what it deserved for "Selling Out".

Also this is just conjecture on my part, but maybe there was content that Suzuki wanted to put in the game that would have made it better. We know some content was cut, so whose to say Deep Silver did not have a hand in that. Then again, maybe it really was just poor choices on Suzuki's part. However since we already have a very long thread about Suzuki's choices for Shenmue III, I thought Deep Silver could also be a factor.

 

[WuyingRen]

You would think that having a record breaking Kickstarter would give Suzuki some leverage. I guess not.

It certainly seems like there were no other options, but even if there were, that Yu decided to partner with Deep Silver suggests that he believed they were the best option available to him.

Also this is just conjecture on my part, but maybe there was content that Suzuki wanted to put in the game that would have made it better. We know some content was cut, so whose to say Deep Silver did not have a hand in that. Then again, maybe it really was just poor choices on Suzuki's part. However since we already have a very long thread about Suzuki's choices for Shenmue III, I thought Deep Silver could also be a factor.

I think it’s more likely that the team just ran out of time and lacked the budget to continue. Maybe you could argue that Deep Silver could have pumped more money into the project, but that they seemingly funded at least one delay that we know of and didn’t force Yu to modernize the game at all suggests that they were fairly flexible and unimposing in terms of what went into the game.

There might be an argument to be made that they pushed for content to be cut to later be sold as DLC, but I don’t think including the story DLC and Big Merry Cruise (I’m not including battle rally here as it was clearly designed as a stand-alone element) in the base game would have drastically altered anybody’s opinion of its overall quality.

 

[Dietsoap]

Mostly agree with @spud1897's post. It's a tough situation overall, and I tend to feel a little bad whenever I criticize them. They did, at least to a certain degree, stick their neck out for us near the beginning after all. That said, it's also hard to not think they could've handled things better in such a way that not only would they personally have benefited more, but so would Shenmue itself.

In particular with the Epic deal... I know there are some people here that think the game itself just isn't good, and therefore the EGS controversy not happening wouldn't have boosted sales much (relatively) anyways. If that's your sincere opinion, I respect and understand the logic. Many others say that the vast majority of sales were always going to be from console regardless, so what happened with the PC version ultimately didn't matter much. Again, I respect and understand the logic, and frankly I agree with the belief that the vast majority of sales were going to be from PS4 even if this whole debacle never occurred.

That all makes perfect sense to me, but my biggest issue with the Epic deal has been that it made actually discussing and effectively promoting the game on other sites virtually impossible. In that regard, I personally believe it actually DID have a pretty negative impact on sales of the PS4 version. I know many believe the deal bought Ys Net more dev time, and they think the deal was necessary as a result. They may be right, it may have bought the game more dev time, but my personal hunch is that's not the case and DS merely did it to recoup some investment cost. But even if it really is the case that the deal bought Ys Net extra dev time, I genuinely believe that it would've been in all parties (except Epic's) best interest if DS had simply denied the deal and paid for the delay out of their own pockets. I genuinely believe that the chilling affect the controversy had on discussion of the game outside of dedicated Shenmue communities was so severe that it cost them more in sales than they made through Epic directly. I have no way of proving that, it's just my personal hunch.

 

[WuyingRen]

Mostly agree with @spud1897's post. It's a tough situation overall, and I tend to feel a little bad whenever I criticize them. They did, at least to a certain degree, stick their neck out for us near the beginning after all. That said, it's also hard to not think they could've handled things better in such a way that not only would they personally have benefited more, but so would Shenmue itself.

In particular with the Epic deal... I know there are some people here that think the game itself just isn't good, and therefore the EGS controversy not happening wouldn't have boosted sales much (relatively) anyways. If that's your sincere opinion, I respect and understand the logic. Many others say that the vast majority of sales were always going to be from console regardless, so what happened with the PC version ultimately didn't matter much. Again, I respect and understand the logic, and frankly I agree with the belief that the vast majority of sales were going to be from PS4 even if this whole debacle never occurred.

That all makes perfect sense to me, but my biggest issue with the Epic deal has been that it made actually discussing and effectively promoting the game on other sites virtually impossible. In that regard, I personally believe it actually DID have a pretty negative impact on sales of the PS4 version. I know many believe the deal bought Ys Net more dev time, and they think the deal was necessary as a result. They may be right, it may have bought the game more dev time, but my personal hunch is that's not the case and DS merely did it to recoup some investment cost. But even if it really is the case that the deal bought Ys Net extra dev time, I genuinely believe that it would've been in all parties (except Epic's) best interest if DS had simply denied the deal and paid for the delay out of their own pockets. I genuinely believe that the chilling affect the controversy had on discussion of the game outside of dedicated Shenmue communities was so severe that it cost them more in sales than they made through Epic directly. I have no way of proving that, it's just my personal hunch.

I really don’t think it would have been in Deep Silver’s best interest to decline the Epic deal.

Digital Bros released a financial report which showed that Epic paid $10.41m for exclusivity of Control. This suggests that the deal was for 200,000 copies at $60 with Epic’s 88% revenue split.

Depending on the number of copies Shenmue’s deal was for, we get...

200,000 copies = around $10.56m.
150,000 copies = around $7.92m.
100,000 copies = around $5.28m.
50,000 copies = around $2.64m.

As the game was built using UE4, any copies on Steam would have been subject to a 5% licensing fee and would have used Valve’s standard 70/30 revenue split meaning only 65% of the full sale price would have gone to the publisher/developer rather than the 88% paid out by Epic.

200,000 copies = around $7.8m.
150,000 copies = around $5.85m
100,000 copies = around $3.9m.
50,000 copies = around $1.95m.

Depending on how many copies the deal was for, it could have made them an extra $2.76m.

That’s also assuming that the game would have sold that many copies on Steam and that all of those copies would have been sold at $60, both of which seem pretty unlikely.

Whilst it’s possible that the deal cost them some sales on PS4, physical console sales are worth significantly less that digital PC sales.

Publishers usually get around 50% of the revenue from a physical game sale, so if Deep Silver made a deal for 200,000 copies, for the argument to be made that Shenmue 3 lost money as a result of the epic deal, the deal would have had to have lead to 92,000 fewer physical sales at full price (bare in mind that the game was heavily discounted in many regions not long after launch). Again, this is also working on the assumption that the game would have sold as many full-price copies on Steam as the Epic deal was for.

 

[GhostTrick]

Beggars cant be choosers.

Deep Silver made a lot of wrongs but also did a lot of rights. If it wasn't for their publishing, the game might have released earlier... And not in good shape.

But it's also clear that when it comes to marketing the game... Very little efforts were done here. Lack of communications, using old screenshots or renders in marketing elements.

You may call it nitpicking, but it highlights that not a lot of care went through that.

 

[WuyingRen]

Beggars cant be choosers.

Deep Silver made a lot of wrongs but also did a lot of rights. If it wasn't for their publishing, the game might have released earlier... And not in good shape.

But it's also clear that when it comes to marketing the game... Very little efforts were done here. Lack of communications, using old screenshots or renders in marketing elements.

You may call it nitpicking, but it highlights that not a lot of care went through that.

They can only put out what’s provided to them by YSNet. What, from within Shenmue 3, do you think could have been used to make a more compelling trailer?

The marketing materials that were produced by Deep Silver for Shenmue 3 reached a wider audience than the trailers for Control, a game with nearly three times the development budget. We got five different trailers and most of them were released in 4+ languages, so I think it’s a little unfair to dismiss their efforts as having been ‘very little’.

 

[spud1897]

Deep Silver should have taken more control over the use of assets in magazines/websites.

Even today they still use older screens, they should have demanded newer ones. Maybe they did and didn't get them? Who knows.

One of the biggest mistakes/catch 22 situations was the 2017 trailer. That instantly caused a lot of heat because of the models in it. The environments were stunning mind. Had they focussed on that and maybe had a small snippet of Ryo it might not have had the lasting negative impact it did?

Being honest the whole Shenmue III process was a damned if you do, damned if you don't. I personally believe that whatever YSNET did with the game, with the budget, there would have been complaints.

My focus is now on Shenmue 4

 

[GhostTrick]

They can only put out what’s provided to them by YSNet. What, from within Shenmue 3, do you think could have been used to make a more compelling trailer?

The marketing materials that were produced by Deep Silver for Shenmue 3 reached a wider audience than the trailers for Control, a game with nearly three times the development budget. We got five different trailers and most of them were released in 4+ languages, so I think it’s a little unfair to dismiss their efforts as having been ‘very little’.

While YsNet may not have produced good enough videos, Deep Silver still managed to give out or failed to enforce the usage of new assets when those were available.

When magazine covers still used the Shenhua render from 2017, with a completly different face... It is problematic.