Does the lack of Shenmue 4 change your opinion of Shenmue 3?

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

As someone who grew up with the original Star Wars Trilogy, I realize I am in the minority when I state that Revenge of the Sith is my favorite film. Within the Shenmue fanbase, I am in the minority when I state Shenmue (1999) is my favorite game in the series. While I disagree with Eyepatch Wolf on some of his opinions regarding Shenmue III, he has every right to express them. I also agree that Suzuki should focus on the core elements that attract people towards Shenmue. However, it is important to understand that different aspects of Shenmue appeal to different people.

This is evident when Shenmue III fans express their indifference towards the altered combat system and minimal story and enjoy the slice-of-life elements. While you, Eyepatch Wolf, and I might see Shenmue as a martial arts epic, others have likened Shenmue to therapy or for learning life lessons. Therefore, it brings up the question of what elements should Suzuki focus on and to what degree. Finally, while I want a fitting conclusion to the series, it is not my place to dictate Suzuki's creative process.

 

[iknifaugood]

As someone who grew up with the original Star Wars Trilogy, I realize I am in the minority when I state that Revenge of the Sith is my favorite film.

That's a hot take. May I ask why? RotS is widely considered the best of the prequel trilogy, but I don't think I've heard anyone prefer it to Empire.

I also agree that Suzuki should focus on the core elements that attract people towards Shenmue. However, it is important to understand that different aspects of Shenmue appeal to different people.

The tension between these two statements is something I wish was better considered before S3 went into production (iirc legend has it that Suzuki originally wanted it to be more story-focused and was talked out of it). Shenmue is a commercial product and so it needs to exist at the crossroads of what's uniquely appealing about the game to a wide audience, what Suzuki actually wants to accomplish with the series, and how much money he has to make it. He now knows the precise size of his audience, so it should be very easy to do that math.

This is evident when Shenmue III fans express their indifference towards the altered combat system and minimal story and enjoy the slice-of-life elements.

If people like S3 then godspeed, I'm glad you got something out of it. But S3 was sold primarily on the back of the story; Suzuki could have made a spiritual successor at any point in the subsequent 18 years if he wanted to simply portray slice-of-life elements. Shenmue is a story-focused game, everything else is side content--I would be genuinely curious to know how many people would have backed S3 on KS if they knew what the game was actually going to be like.

Finally, while I want a fitting conclusion to the series, it is not my place to dictate Suzuki's creative process.

True enough. While it's easy to play armchair game designer, I view the issues of S3 as so deep and so obvious and, combined with Suzuki's claims about the grand story he wants to tell and the amount of money he was able to raise, only to wind up in the exact same spot, as impossible to justify: there was a better way.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

I have two reasons why Revenge of the Sith is my favorite Star Wars film. First, I tend to be drawn towards darker forms of entertainment nowadays. Examples include: Sin City, Lone Wolf and Cub, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Thing (1982), The Godfather II, Scarface (1932), Berserk, and The Punisher Max.

Second, unlike The Empire Strikes Back, Revenge of the Sith ends one story while Empire takes place in the middle of another. There was no redemption in the former, with the possibility of redemption in the latter. Since I do not consider the Sequel Trilogy canon, I see the suicidal sacrifice Vader made in Return of the Jedi more powerful knowing what Anakin Skywalker has gone through. The final chapter of Revenge of the Sith left me awestruck when I first watched it in my mid-twenties, even more than the infamous plot twist in Empire. With that being said, I will acknowledge that Empire Strikes Back is the objectively superior film and my second favorite Star Wars movie.

I think there has been a bit of a misunderstanding, as I believe you and I are in agreement on some things regarding Shenmue. As stated in another post, I also prefer Shenmue to be more of a martial arts epic like Kurosawa's 1985 film Ran or Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon with light mysticism. However, I just have to accept that people like Shenmue for different but valid reasons, which includes Shenmue III. Just as I have to accept that even within the Shenmue fanbase, Shenmue (1999) is not as popular as Shenmue II. While the first game had slower pacing, I felt things unraveled at an even pace which increased my immersion, while the third game was more sporadic and felt empty overall.

 

[SMDzero]

Is that not what you're doing complaining about the review?

I don't understand how you can possibly say that about a 50 minute video that covers the entire game from the perspective of a lifelong fan.

They're not as good. Like Shenmue 2, The Empire Strikes Back being considered the best one is about as close to consensus as it's possible to get within a fandom.

No, we got that because George Lucas sold the IP. After he helped make a terrible Indiana Jones movie first.

I'm old enough to have watched all the prequels in theaters; they were bad then and they're bad now (I tend to think AotC is the best one, but that's not saying much). When they were coming out, we were in the middle of the Lord of the Rings craze, which are actual good movies that people love.

I'll say this about the prequels/sequels: I think the sequels are unquestionably better made from a technical perspective (ie: cinematography, effects work, lighting etc.) but I can appreciate that the prequels were at least trying to be about something. The sequels are about nothing other than continuing the franchise (I mean, so are the prequels but they do a better job of hiding it). That being said, both resulted in excellent spin off content (The Clone Wars, Mandalorian S1, Andor) that are way better than the movies that inspired them. On the whole, neither trilogy should have been made and Star Wars should have been allowed to exist as the orig trig and the expanded universe, which Disney is essentially just redoing at this point.

To bring this back around to Shenmue, I view S3 as the worst of both worlds: it's inferior from a "technical" perspective (bad writing, storytelling, production value etc.) and it's also not about anything other than "member Shenmue?". And, unlike Star Wars, S3 is a direct continuation of the storyline (it's essentially like getting Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi 20 years late).

A lot of people hate S3. In my opinion it's one of the worst modern games I've ever played and I knew as I was playing it that this was it for the series. It has nothing to do with expectations; I was actually expecting it to be worse in most respects (it's graphically much better than I expected, it's highly polished, and it runs well) but I'm not going to sit here and pretend I don't know how to tell the difference between a good story and a bad story. Same thing is true of Star Wars.

I’m calling out SEPW for contributing nothing of value to the world.

You think a 50 min video bashing a video game has any meaningful value?

Any jag-off with an internet connection can criticize but only talented artists like YS can create and contribute to society.

SEPW is someone you may think is a talented person and that’s you’re opinion which you’re entitled to. I just hope you realize that this “fan” is a reason why we will likely never see Shenmue 4. Now we won’t get a S4 but-hey- at least we can look forward to SEPW making more videos (face palm).

In a just world SEPW would be shining Yu Suzuki’s shoes.

Yeah yeah you like TESB and S2 specifically but are you really a Star Wars and Shenmue fan if you only like 1 specific entry in each franchise?

(Maybe you also like ANH- but I’d be shocked if you actually liked ROTJ with all its flaws).

I really like the prequels as they actually told a necessary and planned out story while the sequels were soulless unplanned made-by-committee

Spoiler

woke

nonsense. You probably liked when Disney bought Star Wars since now the franchise can could be done “right” but we missed out of the great sequels GL could have given us. All because toxic fanboys like Red Letter Media SEPW types went on non stop toxic rants.

George Lucas is every bit the genius that Yu Suzuki is. You probably think GL and YS are wash ups and like Red Letter Media and SEPW because since they endlessly criticize it creates they illusion that they know better when they are in reality talentless hacks.

Also have you even replayed Shenmue 3? I’d encourage you to replay it again on PS5 as it plays buttery smooth. You may find you like it better a second time around if you go in with the right mindset.

Also S3 does have an TESB type of ending… our hero’s have been defeated suffered a major setback but they live to fight another day and continue their journey.

The Boat is preparing to leave Niaowu and set sail up the Lijang river. INT. Boat Bridge - Ren and Yuan sit at the bridge as he talks into the comlink. Ren (into comlink) Ryo we're ready to go. Ryo (over comlink) Good luck, Ren Ren (into comlink) When we find Lan Di and that woman we'll contact you.INT. Boat Cabin Ryo speaking into the comlink as a medicworks on his broken arm. Shenhua stands near him. Ryo (into comlink) I'll meet you at the rendezvous point in Suzhou .INT. Boat Bridge Yuan (into comlink) Shenhua we'll find the Mirrors I promise.INT. Boat Cabin - Ryo (into comlink) Ren, I'll be waiting for your signal. Ryo (into comlink) Take care you two. Ryo looks down at his broken arm. A metalized type of bandage has been wrapped around it. The medic makes some adjustments in a tiny electronic unit, then pricks each one of Ryo fingers. Ryo Ow! Ryo wriggles his fingers, makes a fist, and relaxes it. His arm is completely functional.He gets up and walks over to Shenhua. There is a new bond between them, a new understanding. Shenhua is thinking about the prophecy ; Ryo is thinking about his uncertain and newly complicated quest for revenge. Together they stand at the large window looking out on the Lijang River and contemplate their destiny.


You can’t possibly believe that S3 is one of the worst modern games out there. Yes it didn’t live up to the expectations of S2 but S2 is one of the greatest games ever made so how could it??

I challenge you to replay S1 2 and 3 back to back to back on PS5 and then irrespective of the fact that we will likely never see S4 give us your unbiased review.

 

[iknifaugood]

Second, unlike The Empire Strikes Back, Revenge of the Sith ends one story while Empire takes place in the middle of another. There was no redemption in the former, with the possibility of redemption in the latter. Since I do not consider the Sequel Trilogy canon, I see the suicidal sacrifice Vader made in Return of the Jedi more powerful knowing what Anakin Skywalker has gone through. The final chapter of Revenge of the Sith left me awestruck when I first watched it in my mid-twenties, even more than the infamous plot twist in Empire. With that being said, I will acknowledge that Empire Strikes Back is the objectively superior film and my second favorite Star Wars movie.

It's been a while since I've watched the prequels and while I remember RotS being mostly fine, my issue with it is that it drops the ball in the most important scenes. It's the movie where we see what turned Anakin to the dark side and it just didn't work for me at all (too abrupt, not enough of a foundation laid, nonsensical) and the shortcomings of the prequels (horrible dialogue, acting, and screenwriting) really interfere with the story when it's trying to be super dramatic and high stakes. I vividly remember the theater laughing when Darth Vader screams "NOOOOO!". I also think that the prequels were just fundamentally ill advised. We understand everything we need to know from what Obi Wan tells us in the OT and that set up actually ends up undermining the prequels quite a bit.

However, I just have to accept that people like Shenmue for different but valid reasons, which includes Shenmue III.

It's not that anyone's reasons for liking S3 aren't valid, it's that they're (clearly) not in line with what it takes for the series to be successful. So anyone who didn't just want Shenmue 3, but wanted to see the story finished, so like, most of us, should be concerned with how Shenmue needs to look and play in order to reach that level of success.

 

[iknifaugood]

I just hope you realize that this “fan” is a reason why we will likely never see Shenmue 4.

This just simply isn't true. Shenmue 3 is the reason we're not getting Shenmue 4, SEPW just happens to illustrate why. You think that all the investors and publishers were gonna fork over millions of dollars to Suzuki but then watched an hour long YouTube video and were like "actually nahhh"? If Shenmue 3 were a better game and if it sold better, we'd already have Shenmue 4.

Yeah yeah you like TESB and S2 specifically but are you really a Star Wars and Shenmue fan if you only like 1 specific entry in each franchise?

(Maybe you also like ANH- but I’d be shocked if you actually liked ROTJ with all its flaws).

I like RotJ just fine for the same reasons I dislike RotS. Because, despite being overall a weaker movie, RotJ nails the important moments. Shenmue is a little different because of the chapter structure; I would say I really like 2.5/5 chapters of Shenmue so far. *EDIT* And I really liked the anime, especially how it condensed Shenmue 1.

I really like the prequels as they actually told a necessary and planned out story

It didn't strike me as particularly well planned out, and I certainly disagree that either trilogy was necessary. Anakin is described as the best fighter pilot in the galaxy and a good friend to Obi Wan and neither of those things are especially on display in the prequels (The Clone Wars however...).

You probably liked when Disney bought Star Wars since now the franchise can could be done “right” but we missed out of the great sequels GL could have given us. All because toxic fanboys like Red Letter Media

I think the $4 BILLION probably had something to do with it... But, as with Shenmue 3, if the prequels were better, he wouldn't have gotten so much shit for them (to say nothing of Indiana Jones...). Also "woke", really? You wanna talk about toxic...

George Lucas is every bit the genius that Yu Suzuki is. You probably think GL and YS are wash ups

They are talented idea men who benefitted greatly by surrounding themselves with equally talented teams of people and both also benefitted from being in a position where people/circumstances could fight them on their excesses and tell them no.

Also have you even replayed Shenmue 3?

No and I have less than no desire to, especially because there are tons of games that I actually want to play. If my memory needs jogging, there's always YouTube.

Also S3 does have an TESB type of ending… our hero’s have been defeated suffered a major setback but they live to fight another day and continue their journey.

That doesn't mean it's executed as well.

You can’t possibly believe that S3 is one of the worst modern games out there.

I do. That's not an exaggeration. Most modern games are bad because they're released unfinished, full of bugs, or have predatory revenue models. I honestly can't think of a modern game that is as poorly conceived and suffers from as many baffling design decisions as Shenmue 3.

I challenge you to replay S1 2 and 3 back to back to back on PS5 and then irrespective of the fact that we will likely never see S4 give us your unbiased review.

I promise you that playing S3 immediately after reminding myself how awesome S2 is is not going to sweeten my opinion of it.

 

[spud1897]

I'd quote post but I'm on mobile.

SEPW did embellish in his video (fade to blacks being one, wonky dialogue (has he played the originals) among other things) and his ending is pure garbage and makes no sense IMO.

He might have been a fan but he definitely saw an opportunity to go down the hyperbole route and it paid off for him. Not that some of his points don't have merit but they're fulled be a self-serving desire to broaden his appeal. Ita one of his most popular videos to date.

As for playing 2 then 3 back to back I found the feel between the two games worked despite the gap in release. 3's issues are well documented but it clearly isn't the worst modern game ever. That's hyperbole. Objective stats would show that alone. That's not to deminish how someone feels.

The future of the series hinges on 2 things. The community making enough noise and showing theres a market and a compromise from a business perspective in terms of budget and what YSNET want to do.

 

[iknifaugood]

wonky dialogue (has he played the originals)

While I have no desire to relitigate the SEPW drama (suffice it to say that all YouTubers are hyperbolic and he released his video 8 months after the game came out, so he wasn't exactly capitalizing on it), but I'm going to push back on this because this is a big part of the problem in my view. I always saw the poor dialogue/voice acting of the originals as a product of their time (someone on this forum I think @Rydeen pointed out that the system functions much better in Japanese), and something that would be remedied should the series ever move forward (either with just the Japanese dub, where the system works as intended, or a totally new system where the people sound like humans). As it stands, this appears to be a conscious choice by Suzuki and the question is why? Is Shenmue supposed to evoke a kind of B-movie aesthetic? Is it trying to be funny or satirical? Suzuki had native English speakers working with him this time so why is the dialogue and VO still so bad?

3's issues are well documented but it clearly isn't the worst modern game ever. That's hyperbole. Objective stats would show that alone.

What stats? As I said, most games are bad because of technical issues, bugs, performance, microtransactions etc. Now, I'm not some connoisseur of bad games, but I seriously don't remember the last time I played a game as poorly designed as S3. We don't need to go over the flaws again but they all stem from design decisions and writing/planning rather than the things that usually result in bad games.

The future of the series hinges on 2 things. The community making enough noise and showing theres a market and a compromise from a business perspective in terms of budget and what YSNET want to do.

But Suzuki knows the size of his audience! We did our part, we made S3 the biggest video game Kickstarter in history. However many of us bought the game are about what he can expect to buy S4 (maybe a little less), so he has all the information to budget accordingly. The guys who made Disco Elysium did so with the funds they got from selling a Ferrari, maybe Suzuki could look into that as an option?

 

[spud1897]

While I have no desire to relitigate the SEPW drama (suffice it to say that all YouTubers are hyperbolic and he released his video 8 months after the game came out, so he wasn't exactly capitalizing on it), but I'm going to push back on this because this is a big part of the problem in my view. I always saw the poor dialogue/voice acting of the originals as a product of their time (someone on this forum I think @Rydeen pointed out that the system functions much better in Japanese), and something that would be remedied should the series ever move forward (either with just the Japanese dub, where the system works as intended, or a totally new system where the people sound like humans). As it stands, this appears to be a conscious choice by Suzuki and the question is why? Is Shenmue supposed to evoke a kind of B-movie aesthetic? Is it trying to be funny or satirical? Suzuki had native English speakers working with him this time so why is the dialogue and VO still so bad?

SEPW knew what he was doing when he released that video. Take it from someone who creates Youtube content. You know what is going to gather traction or not. Just by the title alone that clickbait will get people looking. As for the VO my only guess is that Yu Suzuki felt this is what fans wanted - hence doing that way. The JP is by far superiour and I generally only play in JP. That said I don't disagree the ENG direction needed modernising but they likely didn't for the reasons above.

What stats? As I said, most games are bad because of technical issues, bugs, performance, microtransactions etc. Now, I'm not some connoisseur of bad games, but I seriously don't remember the last time I played a game as poorly designed as S3. We don't need to go over the flaws again but they all stem from design decisions and writing/planning rather than the things that usually result in bad games.

Literal reviews and Metacritic say it isn't:

https://m.imdb.com/list/ls525754864/

16 Worst PS4 Games You Probably Shouldn't Play

There are so many of the worst PS4 games that we could probably triple the length of this list and still have more to say.

culturedvultures.com

https://www.cbr.com/playstation-4-worst-games/

Shenmue 3 is at a 67 IIRC on Metacritic and 68 on Open Critic (near on a 7/10) which suggests a game with a solid foundation and some flaws. Reviewers are clearly torn over some of the design aspects but clearly the averages would suggest it isn't as badly designed as you think it is. That's fine, that's your view on it, but to suggest it is as bad as the games on these lists is madness in the extreme for me.

But Suzuki knows the size of his audience! We did our part, we made S3 the biggest video game Kickstarter in history. However many of us bought the game are about what he can expect to buy S4 (maybe a little less), so he has all the information to budget accordingly. The guys who made Disco Elysium did so with the funds they got from selling a Ferrari, maybe Suzuki could look into that as an option?

And if you look at the narrative I have been discussing recently is that things will need to meet in the middle in some aspects to get a deal over the line, which I do think can happen. The community have a role to play in that because you can be sure publishers will have noted the discontent in some corners of the community around 3 and it's finished product. But equally they will note that a united community would be willing to buy a 4th game and if it can be shown that is the case it could help push a deal over the line. You may feel you've done your bit but many others want to do more and are. All I need to do is look at the responses to the interview we put out recently to know people want to continue the fight. The only element we can't control is Suzuki's ambitions and expectations. It is his right as a creator to choose his path but equally I am pushing for a more (not to sound horrid here) reasonable way forward. But at the end of the day, who am I? Why should he listen to me or anyone else?

Considering DE is a 2d isometric text based game I imagine a Ferrari would go a long way.

 

[Seaman]

As it stands, this appears to be a conscious choice by Suzuki and the question is why? Is Shenmue supposed to evoke a kind of B-movie aesthetic? Is it trying to be funny or satirical? Suzuki had native English speakers working with him this time so why is the dialogue and VO still so bad?

Not gonna say it loud, because I really don't know how the dub recording process was: did the english voice actors had the scenes for reference or even notes for the characters emphasis in every moment? Or they were left at their own?
Anyways, there's the possibility that Yu-san suffered from the "auto-referencial" syndrome that affects to lots if not every creator that hits their audiences and peak in their art, syndrome which he isn't inmune to. I believe its called "getting mainstream"?
In movies it happened to Scorcese, Spielberg, George Lucas, Ridley Scott, Tim Burton, David Lynch, Tarantino and many others.
They start expressing themselves without chains for appealing to the public and once they get success and aknowledge from the audiences, they start questioning themselves "What did I do that they liked? What are my trademarks?" and then they start repeating these autoreferences to that singular masterpiece that was their peak (usually the first sequel or second hit in every case!). The results are similar to the idea of the authors imitating themselves, being George Lucas or Yu Suzuki. I must to sympathize with this as I think is like a curse from human nature, almost unavoidable. Personally I'll fall into a it if I ever make something that is liked by the masses. How can I be liked by them again? And how can I be liked by them even more?

However, there's also the chance that simply the english voice actors were cheap and bad... Being native doesn't save you from failing in cadence, mood and so on. Take a look at native spanish voice actors! Terrible practically 100%

 

[iknifaugood]

SEPW knew what he was doing when he released that video. Take it from someone who creates Youtube content. You know what is going to gather traction or not. Just by the title alone that clickbait will get people looking.

Yes he clearly knows how to create popular videos, I'm not disputing that. But it's obviously a sentiment that resonates with people since 1. it's a popular video 2. it wasn't released anywhere near the game's launch window and thus likely had little impact on sales and 3. he doesn't exactly seem to take pleasure in it (ie: it's genuine, not some schadenfreude). It literally feels like a eulogy by the end.

As for the VO my only guess is that Yu Suzuki felt this is what fans wanted - hence doing that way. The JP is by far superiour and I generally only play in JP. That said I don't disagree the ENG direction needed modernising but they likely didn't for the reasons above.

But this decision is a huge failure on his part (one of many). Not only did it cost tons of time and money to develop this system with this much dialogue, translate it into 2 languages, AND fully voice it in 2 languages; but it's probably the chief cudgel used to meme the game to death. This isn't exactly surprising: anyone with internet access has seen some kind of Shenmue dialogue related meme over the last 20 years.

Literal reviews and Metacritic say it isn't:

I don't really put a lot of stock in metacritic one way or the other but I don't mean to suggest that everyone who plays it will view it as one of the worst modern games.

Reviewers are clearly torn over some of the design aspects but clearly the averages would suggest it isn't as badly designed as you think it is.

Many of the reviews offer the backhanded compliment that it's an unchanged 20 year old Dreamcast game (something I couldn't disagree with more) and/or that it's basically exclusively made for the audience that still holds those titles in high regard and no one else. Not many of them, even the more positive ones, recommend the game to anyone who isn't already familiar with the series and likely already backed the game on Kickstarter.

That's fine, that's your view on it, but to suggest it is as bad as the games on these lists is madness in the extreme for me.

This is an excerpt from one of the games: "However, the main problem was the gameplay, which is vastly inferior to the previous game in virtually every aspect, oversimplifying the combat and showcasing features that appear to actually be missing. On top of boring cutscenes and the severe lack of challenging enemies, [Guess which game this applies to] is the worst Playstation 4 game almost entirely because of its failure to even reach the feet of its beloved older brother, with future episodes being canceled outright." Which could easily be written about S3 imo (though I wouldn't go so far as to call it the worst PS4 game as I haven't played that many).

The only element we can't control is Suzuki's ambitions and expectations. It is his right as a creator to choose his path but equally I am pushing for a more (not to sound horrid here) reasonable way forward. But at the end of the day, who am I? Why should he listen to me or anyone else?

Because you're being reasonable? Seriously. That's why he should listen to you (and should have listened to his own instincts before being pressured to change the scope of the project, if that's indeed what happened).

And if you look at the narrative I have been discussing recently is that things will need to meet in the middle in some aspects to get a deal over the line, which I do think can happen.

Considering DE is a 2d isometric text based game I imagine a Ferrari would go a long way.

Shenmue 4 is an unrealistic goal at this point imo (especially since Suzuki is talking about going up to 7). The series needs a dramatic reduction in scope and rethinking of what it is going forward and that may require a complete restart/restructuring. DE is, above all, a profitable game that is guaranteed to get a sequel. I'm not saying Shenmue needs to play like DE, but it should be looking to games like that and not to the GTAs of the world when it comes to scope/design.

 

[iknifaugood]

I believe its called "getting mainstream"?
In movies it happened to Scorcese, Spielberg, George Lucas, Ridley Scott, Tim Burton, David Lynch, Tarantino and many others.
They start expressing themselves without chains for appealing to the public and once they get success and aknowledge from the audiences, they start questioning themselves "What did I do that they liked? What are my trademarks?" and then they start repeating these autoreferences to that singular masterpiece that was their peak (usually the first sequel or second hit in every case!). The results are similar to the idea of the authors imitating themselves, being George Lucas or Yu Suzuki. I must to sympathize with this as I think is like a curse from human nature, almost unavoidable.

This is a very good point, particularly when a director's style or property becomes a "brand". It's hard to say if that's true of Suzuki since Shenmue is the only high profile console game he's ever made but it definitely appears to be true of the Shenmue IP.

Personally I'll fall into a it if I ever make something that is liked by the masses. How can I be liked by them again? And how can I be liked by them even more?

I don't think that Suzuki believed that S3 would cause him to be beloved by the masses. S3 was clearly the victim of a troubled development, but I mean he literally had everything going his way at least initially.

However, there's also the chance that simply the english voice actors were cheap and bad... Being native doesn't save you from failing in cadence, mood and so on. Take a look at native spanish voice actors! Terrible practically 100%

Very true. It's for this reason (and many others) that it should have been scrapped.

 

[spud1897]

Yes he clearly knows how to create popular videos, I'm not disputing that. But it's obviously a sentiment that resonates with people since 1. it's a popular video 2. it wasn't released anywhere near the game's launch window and thus likely had little impact on sales and 3. he doesn't exactly seem to take pleasure in it (ie: it's genuine, not some schadenfreude). It literally feels like a eulogy by the end.

I think we'll need to agree to disagree here - even if you watch his Shenmue 1 and 2 video it feels awfully backhanded and he would have known the tone he was striking there. As for his video on 3 he would have known his claims aren't all true having played the game - he knew exactly what he was doing with that video and has publicly tried to shut down people who dispute that. I've no issue with someone not liking something but embellishment I certainly do.

But this decision is a huge failure on his part (one of many). Not only did it cost tons of time and money to develop this system with this much dialogue, translate it into 2 languages, AND fully voice it in 2 languages; but it's probably the chief cudgel used to meme the game to death. This isn't exactly surprising: anyone with internet access has seen some kind of Shenmue dialogue related meme over the last 20 years.

Don't get me wrong I get your point - the decision came from the right place but clearly wasn't the best in terms of views outside of the community. I've always said one dub (JP) was enough. Yakuza/Like a Dragon did fine like that for years and while I have the utmost respect for the English cast, it felt like money could have gone elsewhere and maybe they could have done something as a DLC instead. That said I do see people (not many) who quite openly say they refuse to play Shenmue in anything but English. Not to sound like a twat here but I don't think they would be in the majority.

Many of the reviews offer the backhanded compliment that it's an unchanged 20 year old Dreamcast game (something I couldn't disagree with more) and/or that it's basically exclusively made for the audience that still holds those titles in high regard and no one else. Not many of them, even the more positive ones, recommend the game to anyone who isn't already familiar with the series and likely already backed the game on Kickstarter.

I'm pretty active on other forums these days and while I'll concede people caveat 3 with 'it's not as strong as the others' people still suggest it is played and people make their own minds up. Over the last 18 months I've watched quite a few Twitch streamers who have found Shenmue by some means (usually recommendations) and are always apprehensive around 3. They play it and then wonder why they were. Newer fans are definately not as critical of it.

Because you're being reasonable? Seriously. That's why he should listen to you (and should have listened to his own instincts before being pressured to change the scope of the project, if that's indeed what happened).

I may run this website and have the honour of being able to have had interactions with YSNET and Yu Suzuki prevously but I have nothing other than that. I've no game development experience, no industry experience outside of what I guess is community management in the loosest terms here. Don't get me wrong if I have an ear I'm pushing to find that balance but my view shouldn't be elevated over anothers - certainly not in my view. I try to communicate the feel from the fanbase.

I'd need to listen back to the interview I did with Ryan Payton - IIRC he discussed about wanting to go more newer additions/gameplay but was convinced to go more 50/50 in balance. I don't think we covered the expanded scope outside of Ryan's view (in hindsight - from Part 3) that it would have been better focussed on one area. A view I didn't hold initially but now agree with. The Kickstarter (which we are working through on the podcast) had a massive scope from the offset so I'd suggest he may have needed talking away from that - may have even wanted to? But he could have felt tied by the Kickstarter and couldn't reduce it much. Keep in mind Baisha didn't happen.

Shenmue 4 is an unrealistic goal at this point imo (especially since Suzuki is talking about going up to 7). The series needs a dramatic reduction in scope and rethinking of what it is going forward and that may require a complete restart/restructuring. DE is, above all, a profitable game that is guaranteed to get a sequel. I'm not saying Shenmue needs to play like DE, but it should be looking to games like that and not to the GTAs of the world when it comes to scope/design.

It depends. I don't think it is unrealistic if they can do it in smaller chunks for example or look at the scope in relation to the data they have. They have had interest so there's something they can work with and discuss. I'd love to know what (if any) offers where made. I estimated in a video recently that a budget of $8m-$10m was doable based on what I estimate to be the size of the Shenmue fanbase (400-500k people). I'd also go digital only first off to maximise the revenue streams and do a physical release after if LRG or someone picks it up.

If you massively change the game you could equally have success but you could also really bomb it and not appeal to anyone even the main fanbase.

 

[SMDzero]

This just simply isn't true. Shenmue 3 is the reason we're not getting Shenmue 4, SEPW just happens to illustrate why. You think that all the investors and publishers were gonna fork over millions of dollars to Suzuki but then watched an hour long YouTube video and were like "actually nahhh"? If Shenmue 3 were a better game and if it sold better, we'd already have Shenmue 4.

I like RotJ just fine for the same reasons I dislike RotS. Because, despite being overall a weaker movie, RotJ nails the important moments. Shenmue is a little different because of the chapter structure; I would say I really like 2.5/5 chapters of Shenmue so far. *EDIT* And I really liked the anime, especially how it condensed Shenmue 1.

It didn't strike me as particularly well planned out, and I certainly disagree that either trilogy was necessary. Anakin is described as the best fighter pilot in the galaxy and a good friend to Obi Wan and neither of those things are especially on display in the prequels (The Clone Wars however...).

I think the $4 BILLION probably had something to do with it... But, as with Shenmue 3, if the prequels were better, he wouldn't have gotten so much shit for them (to say nothing of Indiana Jones...). Also "woke", really? You wanna talk about toxic...

They are talented idea men who benefitted greatly by surrounding themselves with equally talented teams of people and both also benefitted from being in a position where people/circumstances could fight them on their excesses and tell them no.

No and I have less than no desire to, especially because there are tons of games that I actually want to play. If my memory needs jogging, there's always YouTube.

That doesn't mean it's executed as well.

I do. That's not an exaggeration. Most modern games are bad because they're released unfinished, full of bugs, or have predatory revenue models. I honestly can't think of a modern game that is as poorly conceived and suffers from as many baffling design decisions as Shenmue 3.

I promise you that playing S3 immediately after reminding myself how awesome S2 is is not going to sweeten my opinion of it.

SEPW is absolutely the reason why we're not getting S4.

Over 3.1 Million people saw his video... if just 10% of them were dissuaded from purchasing S3 then it would have resulted in another 300k sales.... easily enough to get it over the line to greenlight a S4.

Regarding ROTJ, aside from the Vader Luke Emperor scenes the movie is crap. It's just derivative of the first movie.... back to Tatooine with a Luke with freaking Aunt Berus haircut. A castrated pudgy bored Harrison Ford walking in a forest, and freaking Teddy Bears.

But you like ROTJ, but HATE S3? Credibility has gone completely out the window.

George Lucas didn't sell SW for the money, he sold it because the toxic fanboy crap finally got to him and he wanted to live out his remaining days in peace.

I'm tired of you constantly bashing Shenmue 3. I ain't wit ya! You're on your own this time iknifaugood!

 

[iknifaugood]

he knew exactly what he was doing with that video and has publicly tried to shut down people who dispute that.

This is a totally different kind of thing. I wasn't aware that he did anything like this. What did he do?

the decision came from the right place but clearly wasn't the best in terms of views outside of the community.

I don't think Suzuki set out to make a bad game, no one does, but it's not clear to me from S3 that he has a strong vision for the series beyond what the fans want/expect. I simply don't see what he's driving at with these games based on what he says (7 games of epic storyline that represent his life's work) compared with what we got in S3. I mean, forklifts? Grinding for money? Asking random NPCs the same question over and over? These are the things that people who make fun of Shenmue would put in Shenmue 3.

That said I do see people (not many) who quite openly say they refuse to play Shenmue in anything but English. Not to sound like a twat here but I don't think they would be in the majority.

If you find the bad voice acting "charming" and/or you're enjoying the games "ironically" that's fine, but the game should not be designed around those tastes (unless, of course, Shenmue is supposed to be like The Room or something). Making a game that people can't easily point and laugh at isn't actually that hard.

They play it and then wonder why they were. Newer fans are definately not as critical of it.

I could definitely see that being the case, especially because experiencing 1 and 2 now robs them of the luster they once had. It wouldn't feel as much like going from ultra-budget AAA to modest AA, however I would be absolutely shocked if anyone preferred S3 to S2 simply in terms of entertainment value.

I may run this website and have the honour of being able to have had interactions with YSNET and Yu Suzuki prevously but I have nothing other than that. I've no game development experience, no industry experience outside of what I guess is community management in the loosest terms here. Don't get me wrong if I have an ear I'm pushing to find that balance but my view shouldn't be elevated over anothers - certainly not in my view. I try to communicate the feel from the fanbase.

I'd need to listen back to the interview I did with Ryan Payton - IIRC he discussed about wanting to go more newer additions/gameplay but was convinced to go more 50/50 in balance. I don't think we covered the expanded scope outside of Ryan's view (in hindsight - from Part 3) that it would have been better focussed on one area. A view I didn't hold initially but now agree with. The Kickstarter (which we are working through on the podcast) had a massive scope from the offset so I'd suggest he may have needed talking away from that - may have even wanted to? But he could have felt tied by the Kickstarter and couldn't reduce it much. Keep in mind Baisha didn't happen.

Anyone who is vying for realistic, achievable goals should absolutely be elevated over people convincing him to spend another 5 years on a single installment.

They have had interest so there's something they can work with and discuss. I'd love to know what (if any) offers where made.

Same, though it's extremely unlikely in this industry.

I estimated in a video recently that a budget of $8m-$10m was doable based on what I estimate to be the size of the Shenmue fanbase (400-500k people).

This is the right idea. If Shenmue's fanbase is approximately 400k and Suzuki can self publish, it could actually be very profitable for him.

If you massively change the game you could equally have success but you could also really bomb it and not appeal to anyone even the main fanbase.

Very true, but at this point what's left to lose? Here's what I would do if I were him: do a complete restart of the series (he should take a look at all those chapters he wants to do and lock the story down from a high level) and let's say you have 11 chapters. You make the game within a smaller budget (2D or limited 3D; one day I'll draw up some concept art of what I mean) and get all your tools in order to be able to have a relatively quick turn around. You can then sell each chapter for something like $10 (hell, you could probably go higher and Shenmue fans wouldn't mind) and have them be a bit shorter and snappier. I would also launch this with the content of the first 3 games already done and maybe a bonus chapter (If we're on chapter 5, that would make this a $50 game initially). Then you release the additional chapters one at a time as they're done. That way, you're in full control of the storyline, you have an engine and dev tools ready to go so all you need to do is focus on content, and you have a much faster turn around time because of the reduced scope. You could probably have the whole series done inside 5(ish) years depending on the size of the team for a fraction of the cost of trying to do it the S3 way and not only would you end up with a much better final product (due to it being much easier to polish up and add content), you'd also be making money right off the bat (assuming ~400k people buy it).

 

[iknifaugood]

Over 3.1 Million people saw his video... if just 10% of them were dissuaded from purchasing S3 then it would have resulted in another 300k sales.... easily enough to get it over the line to greenlight a S4.

His video was released 8 months after the game launched, games that get sequels sell enough to get sequels (and those sequels usually begin production) in that time.

A castrated pudgy bored Harrison Ford

Pudgy?

This is a picture of Harrison Ford in 1983. This is Blade Runner, Star Wars, Indiana Jones Harrison Ford. This is peak Harrison Ford. Bored? Yes. But that's because he (correctly) wanted Han Solo to die. But pudgy??

But you like ROTJ, but HATE S3? Credibility has gone completely out the window.

Return of the Jedi is the weakest of the OT but its highs hit much higher than S3's highs.

George Lucas didn't sell SW for the money, he sold it because the toxic fanboy crap finally got to him and he wanted to live out his remaining days in peace.

He also said he wanted to make smaller movies and hasn't directed anything since RotS. So yea, it was for the money. I don't have anything against Lucas; he gave the world Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and LucasArts so he earned his billions in my view.

I'm tired of you constantly bashing Shenmue 3.

It's impossible to talk about moving the series forward without talking about all the things that are wrong with S3.

 

[WuyingRen]

At the end of the day, Yu made the game that he wanted to make, and I could never begrudge him that. However, I do sometimes wonder whether the project couldn’t have been managed a lot better, particular when it came to the deal that was struck with Deep Silver and the Embracer group. Don’t get me wrong, I think that securing a publishing partner was absolutely the right play and ultimately led to us getting a better game, but I feel like maybe they chose the wrong one.

Coming off the back of a record breaking Kickstarter campaign and with half of the budget already secured, I find it hard to believe that Yu couldn’t have struck a deal that guaranteed a fourth game, or, at the very least, negotiated terms that ensured that they’d get a healthy share of the Kickstarter money back after the game broke even. Anything, really, to spare us all (himself included) from another decade or so of uncertainty.

I have no idea how much of the Kickstarter money ended up back in YS Net’s coffers, but can only assume that it wasn’t that much. If it had been, and they had a few million dollars just sitting around in the bank, you’d like to think that securing the additional funding needed for a more modest Shenmue 4 (whether that be through a partner or another crowdfunding campaign) would be doable, with the right pitch.

I dunno. I’m almost certainly oversimplifying things and there are no doubt circumstances that we’re not and will likely never be aware of, but from the outside looking in, it feels like Yu may have been a little too overconfident after the success of the Kickstarter. In a way, I kind of admire that the thought of Shenmue 3 failing doesn’t appear to have crossed his mind. Had it done so, though, we might already have gotten a proper end to the series.

 

[iknifaugood]

At the end of the day, Yu made the game that he wanted to make, and I could never begrudge him that.

Did he though? Didn't he rate it like a 7/10 in an interview and claim that Baisha was the most important part?

Don’t get me wrong, I think that securing a publishing partner was absolutely the right play and ultimately led to us getting a better game, but I feel like maybe they chose the wrong one.

Securing a publisher is the only move if you can't self finance and it was my understanding from fairly early on that the KS wouldn't cover the entire cost of development.

Coming off the back of a record breaking Kickstarter campaign and with half of the budget already secured, I find it hard to believe that Yu couldn’t have struck a deal that guaranteed a fourth game

If I had to guess, he probably attempted something like this but chose to put all his eggs in the S3 basket rather than split the baby. Which still leaves open the question of why S3 is barely trying to appeal to non-fans.

negotiated terms that ensured that they’d get a healthy share of the Kickstarter money back after the game broke even. Anything, really, to spare us all (himself included) from another decade or so of uncertainty.

I have no idea how much of the Kickstarter money ended up back in YS Net’s coffers, but can only assume that it wasn’t that much.

Why do you assume this? It's my understanding that all the KS money went to funding development (and the associated rewards which were doubtlessly a headache).

you’d like to think that securing the additional funding needed for a more modest Shenmue 4 (whether that be through a partner or another crowdfunding campaign) would be doable, with the right pitch.

You'd think that, especially if we're talking (almost) guaranteed 400-500k sales. The only impetus at that point would be an uncompromising Suzuki.

but from the outside looking in, it feels like Yu may have been a little too overconfident after the success of the Kickstarter. In a way, I kind of admire that the thought of Shenmue 3 failing doesn’t appear to have crossed his mind.

I find this incredibly worrying as S3 steps on several fairly large rakes that anyone with even a passing knowledge of the series' reputation and/or the wider gaming audience would know to avoid.

Had it done so, though, we might already have gotten a proper end to the series.

Evidently his initial instinct was to focus on the story and his mind was changed early in development. Who knows?

 

[SMDzero]

His video was released 8 months after the game launched, games that get sequels sell enough to get sequels (and those sequels usually begin production) in that time.

Pudgy?
View attachment 19752
This is a picture of Harrison Ford in 1983. This is Blade Runner, Star Wars, Indiana Jones Harrison Ford. This is peak Harrison Ford. Bored? Yes. But that's because he (correctly) wanted Han Solo to die. But pudgy??

Return of the Jedi is the weakest of the OT but its highs hit much higher than S3's highs.

He also said he wanted to make smaller movies and hasn't directed anything since RotS. So yea, it was for the money. I don't have anything against Lucas; he gave the world Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and LucasArts so he earned his billions in my view.

It's impossible to talk about moving the series forward without talking about all the things that are wrong with S3.

Out of the 3 Million people who watched SEPW's video, how many so you think would have otherwise bought Shenmue 3 but choose not to?

Number 1, that pic of Harrison Ford makes him look like a wimp. Why the hell is he wearing shoes with no socks?? He does NOT look like masculine "peak" Ford here.

Number 2, Ford was indeed pudgy in ROTJ.

Just look at his fatness here.... giving Jabba the Hut a run for his money.



Here look at his double chin and fold of fat hanging over his belt.


GL did not sell SW for the money.... he already had hundreds of millions of dollars a few billion on top would mean nothing to him.

If the fans had supported GL and not been so toxic he would have been energized to actually make the sequels instead of selling out to the evil white slavers at Disney (GL's own quote btw).

 

[iknifaugood]

Out of the 3 Million people who watched SEPW's video, how many so you think would have otherwise bought Shenmue 3 but choose not to?

A vanishingly small number. His other Shenmue video is extremely positive about Shenmue 2 and I equally don't think that helped the sales of the HD collection.

Number 1, that pic of Harrison Ford makes him look like a wimp. Why the hell is he wearing shoes with no socks?? He does NOT look like masculine "peak" Ford here.

Number 2, Ford was indeed pudgy in ROTJ.

Just look at his fatness here.... giving Jabba the Hut a run for his money.

This is from the set of RotJ; I will hear no more body shaming of peak Harrison Ford (who, honestly, is one of the main reasons Star Wars worked so well in the first place).

GL did not sell SW for the money.... he already had hundreds of millions of dollars a few billion on top would mean nothing to him.

It's the difference between having to run multiple companies while being able to take care of your kids and grandkids, and having generational wealth long after you're gone while being able to truly retire worry-free.

If the fans had supported GL and not been so toxic he would have been energized to actually make the sequels instead of selling out to the evil white slavers at Disney (GL's own quote btw).

He really doesn't seem to like directing much. Even before the prequels, his last directing credit is Star Wars. So, not counting Star Wars, he's only directed 2 feature length movies since the '70s. If hundreds of millions of dollars, the adoration of the world, and decades of being able to do whatever you want weren't enough to energize him to make movies, I don't see how a different reaction to the prequels (and that truly awful Indiana Jones movie) would have. It's possible that Suzuki has a similar c'est la vie attitude.