General Impressions

[register2viewspoilerforum]

Yes but two/three nitpicks doesn't generalise an entire topic, especially in my comments, seeing as your touting that specifically I disagreed with the post. You will see I've agreed with a few and stated others were down to preference rather than nitpicks ands that's fine. We all have different preferences.

Your comments clearly generalised everyone's replies and is thus inaccurate so don't even try that passive aggressive rubbish because you've been corrected.

Merry Christmas

I don't think you and others (Truck specifically) are sincere in your replies when it comes to those that criticize the game. I think your aim is to downplay and while not using the term multiple times in this thread, I think you believe most critism is "nit-picky." That's the general spirit I take away from you and others that routinely reply in step to critism of the game. It comes off as fake and forced. In regards to my original post being correct or incorrect, under this explanation I think I've sufficiently clarified - it was your use of the term and totality of your replies to similar subjects which molded my reply. I do agree, it probably wasn't 100% fair to say without providing context. This reply should clarify that.

As far as the comment of "passive aggressive"...this reply is straightforward and to the point so it should make abundantly clear what I think so you don't need to feel that I am being passive aggressive. That's not my intent but sometimes on mobile and on an Internet forum communication can take more effort than one has the time and patience for.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

 

[spud1897]

I don't think you and others (Truck specifically) are sincere in your replies when it comes to those that criticize the game. I think your aim is to downplay and while not using the term multiple times in this thread, I think you believe most critism is "nit-picky." That's the general spirit I take away from you and others that routinely reply in step to critism of the game. It comes off as fake and forced. In regards to my original post being correct or incorrect, under this explanation I think I've sufficiently clarified - it was your use of the term and totality of your replies to similar subjects which molded my reply. I do agree, it probably wasn't 100% fair to say without providing context. This reply should clarify that.

As far as the comment of "passive aggressive"...this reply is straightforward and to the point so it should make abundantly clear what I think so you don't need to feel that I am being passive aggressive. That's not my intent but sometimes on mobile and on an Internet forum communication can take more effort than one has the time and patience for.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

I do think you misinterpret my replies sometimes but I do agree its difficult on mobile/forums as text only tells half a story.

The specifics around the OP's post of which some come down to budget, IMO, so it's fair to say these things in order to give a balanced view.

That said I've specifically agreed with some of the points raised by the OP so yes while I'm definitely in the camp of defending the game, I'm more than open to accepting its faults and my posts consistently match that tone.

Anyway I'll leave this here.

 

[Reprise]

There's nothing wrong with defending the game. I don't know why some people assume you must have some kind of agenda or an ulterior motive by enjoying the game or defending it. There's a thread over at GameFaqs that basically says as much. I didn't bother arguing or replying, but why aren't people allowed to sincerely and genuinely enjoy the game for what it is? Why assume they're deluded fanboys? Most people, whether they're fans of Shenmue or not, agree the game is flawed. Some people can look past those flaws and find enjoyment, others cannot. Some people think there are just a few minor flaws and some people think there are a number of major flaws. What constitutes as "flaws" to some people are not even thought of as flaws to others. It all comes down to opinion.

 

[shredingskin]

One of the things that really harmed the lasting impression for me is that both times before leaving a location felt like a lowpoint instead of hyping it up (both times I was thinking "this is it?").
The start of every GD in the originals felt like a turning point in the game, but I can't say the same about S3, in Bailu you beat the thug (which is the main quest of the whole segment and honestly I never felt very invested in them) he tells you to go to Niaowu, but then we get the whole segment with the old lady and Chai that felt superfluous and repeat the same that the thug told you a few minutes ago.
For Niaowu it's the same, it feels like the game is doing you some tourist quests to get you acclimated with the city and showing you the places before the "story kicks in", but instead Niao Sun needs to make the whole "go to the castle" to make the story go on (because mr muscles again is just uninteresting and probably doesn't know really anything about the mirrors or Lan Di).
In both cases I was really enjoying the game, I'd give it a 8 or 9, even if I have my complaints I was really enjoying the gameloop even if there wasn't much going on storywise, but the moment of going away both times retroactively made it feel less than the moment to moment feeling of enjoyment I was having.

 

[Ruffles]

Many valid points here. But no game is worth $2 000. You were bound to be disappointed.

 

[register2viewspoilerforum]

I do think you misinterpret my replies sometimes but I do agree its difficult on mobile/forums as text only tells half a story.

The specifics around the OP's post of which some come down to budget, IMO, so it's fair to say these things in order to give a balanced view.

That said I've specifically agreed with some of the points raised by the OP so yes while I'm definitely in the camp of defending the game, I'm more than open to accepting its faults and my posts consistently match that tone.

Anyway I'll leave this here.

I wasn't intending on replying to this thread but my post was deleted (likely because it was back to back), no effort in notification was made, and no attempt to merge the posts was made so I'll repost.

My final thoughts on this are an exercise for those that would like to understand my viewpoints better. Take a moment to read these type of threads where the game is criticized, see who frequently replies in defense, make note of the effort in the reply (remember, according to some great effort must be made in critism for it to be valid, so the same standard should apply to praise/defensive posturing), and above all pay close attention to how the member frames their defensive reply (especially their introduction to threads of this nature).

This thread has some examples of what I'm talking about. Start here, and apply what you know to previous and future repeat threads for a better understanding of what I mean by "insincerity."

It's not a situation of misunderstanding some members posts, it's a situation of understanding the intent behind the post.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

The guy’s criticism is here on full display for all to read. People are engaging him; he’s engaging them. I see him talking to the people you’ve called out and it doesn’t appear like he is offended or being forced to defend himself from anything. What exactly is the point of what you’re trying to say? I don’t think there is a point. If they’re insincere, but at least trying to engage this guy in discussion? So be it. No one has to agree completely with a long post of subjective complaints about a game they like. But you don’t want to talk about this game. You want to talk about the community and the fans and drag them both down.

 

[register2viewspoilerforum]

The guy’s criticism is here on full display for all to read. People are engaging him; he’s engaging them. I see him talking to the people you’ve called out and it doesn’t appear like he is offended or being forced to defend himself from anything. What exactly is the point of what you’re trying to say? I don’t think there is a point. If they’re insincere, but at least trying to engage this guy in discussion? So be it. No one has to agree completely with a long post of subjective complaints about a game they like. But you don’t want to talk about this game. You want to talk about the community and the fans and drag them both down.

I agree - the OP is very measured, patient, and intelligent.

I also agree with you that no one needs to agree with a review of any kind.

My point is clearly outlined so I won't waste anymore time reposting it.

As far as your last sentence, I can see why you think that; however, I registered here as an old veteran member to read the spoiler forum. I read more than what I reply to as most of what I have to say is said by others. As far as what I discuss, my views are likely held by many here who may not be comfortable in making the point. Anyway, I don't want to muddy this great thread further so let's chat in PMs if you like (if of course I'm not still on your ignore list).

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Many valid points here. But no game is worth $2 000. You were bound to be disappointed.

I backed at a similar level. I did it because I really sincerely loved Shenmue 1 & 2 in a way I didnt love other video games and had the disposable income at the time. I also probably didn't even spend a fraction of that on games in the 15 years that had passed. I was pretty much absent from gaming since the Xbox went off the market...

The final result is definitely not the final result of my dreams, but I had no real expectations going in. I think if I had, I'd be much more like the @register2viewspoilerforum-s of the forum. I just find it difficult to feel strongly one way or another about the game now that it's out. There is plenty of good criticism in the OP's post, but also a fair share of what I would definitely call nitpicking--things that I wouldn't be surprised feature in much higher budget games. (For example, complaining that Ryo's mouth doesn't move when he says he can't go somewhere--that's just nitpicking. Sorry, but it is). On the other hand, it's easy to nitpick when the game is presented somewhat amateurishly, so I get it.

Anyway, I like Shenmue III enough that I'd happily purchase Shenmue IV, but I also doubt I'd spend more than the retail price of the game if funding were open to the fans. If the market's not there, it's not there. Hopefully YS can work on something else if that happens. I hope the true hardcore Dojo members and real fans can move on as well and try to dwell less on what other people think about the game and figure out how to actually engage in real discussions about the game.

 

[Nathanial Essex]

I did not read everything in the OP. But for all of Shenmue's issues, the last plot hole I thought that would be brought up was who is paying for Shenhua's room...

 

[Nathanial Essex]

Just finished reading and for the most part I agree. I think most of us do.

I have always stated that I wanted Shenmue III to be the last game in the series and just conclude everything. It will be a genuinely life depressing moment if this game does not conclude. For me, I feel that this was the ideal time to release Shenmue III with console volumes at their peak. Where they went terribly wrong for me is with their development team and marketing. How I would have handled the entire situation.

1. Remake the first two games before you announce the kick starter for. I am no expert when it comes to game development but feel Shenmue I & II can be easily remade in a similar fashion to Shadow of the Colossus where all the assets were redone but retained the same game code and gameplay. Shenmue sold over a million copies almost 20 years ago. There are grown adults who were not born when this game was released along with an entire new generation to introduce the series to. I played Shenmue again recently and it's a game that is still ahead of its time when it comes to music, detail and the fighting system which is still better than Yakuza, Witcher, Elder Scrolls etc. The only thing that needs updating is the audio quality and MAYBE a feature to skip time in places. That's it.
2. Have those game sell a decent amount and then launch the kick starter for Shenmue III but plan out the development of the game much better. I feel that most of the issues with the game is simply down to people changing ideas/direction during development and trying to rush it out. The fact the launch date moved so much is proof of that. I don't care if the game is only 7 hours long, just have something that is concise and rich in story telling. You plan this out better, you don't end up with a game that feels rushed in parts and filled with filler.
3. Don't get the marketing wrong. Seriously, fans purchased this game but can anyone here honestly recommend it to a neutral? The graphics are good in general but some of the character models are inexcusably terrible and those are the ones they decided to show in every trailer. As I have said before, you fix the character models and the terrible voice acting, you have (in its current build) a good game that will appeal to more than just the fans.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Sega didn’t want to spend money remaking Shenmue 1+2, clearly, and I have no doubt the Shenmue purists would’ve found a thousand and one issues with remakes of games they’ve played hundreds of times. I don’t see how that would’ve helped the Kickstarter. The Kickstarter didn’t need any help; it’s still the highest funded VG Kicksyarter

Obviously the perfect scenario would’ve been Sega giving Yu Suzuki a massive budget and hundreds of staffers, but that was also never going to happen. Shenmue 3 wouldn’t have been a multimillion seller even if it was flawlessly executed. It’s a slow paced game that mostly takes place in a rural Chinese village, not a murder simulator. Ys Net is simply understaffed and inexperienced compared to what Yu Suzuki usually works with.

The realistic ideal would’ve been Yu Suzuki considering what kind of game he could actually make with a limited budget and not throwing the kitchen sink at the game, effectively creating a low budget replica of games many of us adore. Unfortunately, there would’ve still been rioting had Shenmue 3 not featured drawer opening, pointless conversations, a very poor English dub, and forklifts, because that is Shenmue to many fans.

Like I’ve said,Shenmue 3 was always going to be an unwinnable situation for Ys Net no matter what approach they took. How do you fulfill 15+ years of expectations? It’s nearly impossible.

 

[24Nathan]

There's nothing wrong with defending the game. I don't know why some people assume you must have some kind of agenda or an ulterior motive by enjoying the game or defending it. There's a thread over at GameFaqs that basically says as much. I didn't bother arguing or replying, but why aren't people allowed to sincerely and genuinely enjoy the game for what it is? Why assume they're deluded fanboys? Most people, whether they're fans of Shenmue or not, agree the game is flawed. Some people can look past those flaws and find enjoyment, others cannot. Some people think there are just a few minor flaws and some people think there are a number of major flaws. What constitutes as "flaws" to some people are not even thought of as flaws to others. It all comes down to opinion.

I think this is a great way to summarize some of the replies going on in this thread.

As far as the insincerity claims, @register2viewspoilerforum, nobody, hating, loving, or indifferent to Shenmue III should have to defend their sincerity when it comes to their opinion. How on Earth are you supposed to even defend something like that? Are you in said person's mind? You can have that thought on spud, me, or whoever, but how are you ever going to prove that?

I don't know if some of you people realize this, but you're on a Shenmue forum. It comes across as pretty common to like Shenmue (I, II, III, or any combination thereof). Therefore, the standard for explaining a point (or points) as to something you don't like is just a tad higher than for explaining something you like. If every member here had to explain what we liked about the franchise, there'd be thousands of topics. That is why people who dislike the game or games have a bit higher of a threshold than those who do. I'd expect the same if I went to a Kingdom Hearts forum saying that one of their games is bad. I'd be expected to explain it. Or like walking into a bar and saying anyone who drinks alcohol is a bad person. You've got to know your audience, it's kind of common sense.

If anyone has questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me, but let's get back to the original topic.

 

[register2viewspoilerforum]

I backed at a similar level. I did it because I really sincerely loved Shenmue 1 & 2 in a way I didnt love other video games and had the disposable income at the time. I also probably didn't even spend a fraction of that on games in the 15 years that had passed. I was pretty much absent from gaming since the Xbox went off the market...

The final result is definitely not the final result of my dreams, but I had no real expectations going in. I think if I had, I'd be much more like the @register2viewspoilerforum-s of the forum. I just find it difficult to feel strongly one way or another about the game now that it's out. There is plenty of good criticism in the OP's post, but also a fair share of what I would definitely call nitpicking--things that I wouldn't be surprised feature in much higher budget games. (For example, complaining that Ryo's mouth doesn't move when he says he can't go somewhere--that's just nitpicking. Sorry, but it is). On the other hand, it's easy to nitpick when the game is presented somewhat amateurishly, so I get it.

Anyway, I like Shenmue III enough that I'd happily purchase Shenmue IV, but I also doubt I'd spend more than the retail price of the game if funding were open to the fans. If the market's not there, it's not there. Hopefully YS can work on something else if that happens. I hope the true hardcore Dojo members and real fans can move on as well and try to dwell less on what other people think about the game and figure out how to actually engage in real discussions about the game.

Is it nitpicking if there are other numerous minor problems that in totality overshadow the elements that make the game decent (thus becoming major)? For the series to be viable going forward, Shenmue III needed to present itself well, in your words the end result was somewhat amateurish, and we all know some of what attributed to that, but newcomers are unlikely to be so forgiving (they weren't). So we're left with those that point it out with the option of having an open discussion about what's wrong. Some members adding caveats like (paraphrasing): "but the budget wasn't enough so without mentioning that you're not being balanced" or classifying critism as "nitpicking" is what's driving the type of conversation you don't prefer.

I remember when there were concerns about the title screen and the replies about nitpicking then. Now we have a laundry list of items that would fall under that term "nitpicking." At what point do we say to ourselves, all of these problems while seemingly small individually are amplified as there's so many of them?

I want to thank OP for writing this out and sending it to YSNet. Thank you for being constructive and focusing your efforts on following through to make a potentially better sequel.

In regard to my apparent "kind," my expectations if I had any were set by the Kickstarter tease and the footage that came afterwards. It was obvious from the get-go how some of this was going to turn out - which I accepted since I didn't request a refund - I think some shaky elements came as a surprise and a disappointment outside of obvious things like graphics, animation, etc. and those are well outlined by OP.

I enjoyed and disliked portions of the game; however, I fully support the right of others to speak freely on what they like or don't like without being cast aside or forced to cater to those that feel virtuous in being protective in an effort to guide the narrative and thus apparently in their eyes somehow influence the continuation of the series. You'll never see me downplay or attempt to insincerely adjust someone's opinion on the game.

"true hardcore Dojo members and real fans" - comments like these are what many dislike. Especially from those that (1) Funded this game out of there own pocket (in some instances multiple thousands of dollars across multiple accounts) and (2) Who don't feel compelled to divulge that or fall in line with your opinions to meet a non-existent "vetting" process to be considered a real fan. It's hard to take comments like that seriously. We're probably more alike than you think, I too dropped out of gaming around the time you did and "made up" for it by funding this endeavor. I however did not have high expectations...in fact, throughout the development and general reception at release, I've been rather unconcerned in terms of how it turned out because who I am today is not the same as the child that was at one time overly emotionally invested in the series. From a finanical perspective, I don't feel slighted either. There was risk and it played out. We'll never know all of the details that played into the end product so how people feel about the game is legitimately what they feel with few if any exceptions.

I think this is a great way to summarize some of the replies going on in this thread.

As far as the insincerity claims, @register2viewspoilerforum, nobody, hating, loving, or indifferent to Shenmue III should have to defend their sincerity when it comes to their opinion. How on Earth are you supposed to even defend something like that? Are you in said person's mind? You can have that thought on spud, me, or whoever, but how are you ever going to prove that?

I don't know if some of you people realize this, but you're on a Shenmue forum. It comes across as pretty common to like Shenmue (I, II, III, or any combination thereof). Therefore, the standard for explaining a point (or points) as to something you don't like is just a tad higher than for explaining something you like. If every member here had to explain what we liked about the franchise, there'd be thousands of topics. That is why people who dislike the game or games have a bit higher of a threshold than those who do. I'd expect the same if I went to a Kingdom Hearts forum saying that one of their games is bad. I'd be expected to explain it. Or like walking into a bar and saying anyone who drinks alcohol is a bad person. You've got to know your audience, it's kind of common sense.

If anyone has questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me, but let's get back to the original topic.

Insincerity in "replies when it comes to those that criticize the game." My posts further explain. And yes, anyone can guage intent or motivations based on current and prior interactions. It's quite common here, elsewhere, and in the real world.

Those that have read the topics and replies by the members referenced know what I mean so I'll leave it at that.

 

[24Nathan]

Is it nitpicking if there are other numerous minor problems that in totality overshadow the elements that make the game decent (thus becoming major)? For the series to be viable going forward, Shenmue III needed to present itself well, in your words the end result was somewhat amateurish, and we all know some of what attributed to that, but newcomers are unlikely to be so forgiving (they weren't). So we're left with those that point it out with the option of having an open discussion about what's wrong. Some members adding caveats like (paraphrasing): "but the budget wasn't enough so without mentioning that you're not being balanced" or classifying critism as "nitpicking" is what's driving the type of conversation you don't prefer.

I remember when there were concerns about the title screen and the replies about nitpicking then. Now we have a laundry list of items that would fall under that term "nitpicking." At what point do we say to ourselves, all of these problems while seemingly small individually are amplified as there's so many of them?

I wanted to discuss the OP's list further in my post, just haven't had time yet, but I will. Some of it is very valid. Some of it I consider very subjective and dependent on the player. Your assertion that "newcomers are unlikely to be so forgiving" is likewise very subjective. I have seen MANY across here, social media, etc. that are very pleased with the game. Some longtime fans, and even some who never played I & II, or only recently played them for the first time with the rereleases. Metacritic has a critic score of 69 and a user scre of 8.0: https://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/shenmue-iii. Any claim that the majority don't like (or do) is purely anecdotal and serves as hyperbole to bolster one side's claim.

The title screen to me is nitpicky. Who cares? What child is going to turn off the game because of a title screen? I was helping my little elementary aged cousins install Fortnite last night on their new Xbox One, and the title screen was the exact same thing...title of the game on a generic background, with the command to press any button. And it took SO LONG to load. Dear lord.

There are legitimate criticisms here. Animation, character models, abrupt ending, or whatever. I can get on board with those. But some things like, one village had a 7am start to the day and one had 8am...are we really going to go there as being a reason why Shenmue III is bad?

About budget...I'm not a game developer and maybe some others in this forum are, but in most lines of...anything....you can't do as much with a lower budget. In my subjective opinion, the overall product of Shenmue III is very impressive considering what they had to work with. Compare this:

To this:

Objectively, literally everything is better. Animations, voice acting, graphics, animation, etc.

I enjoyed and disliked portions of the game; however, I fully support the right of others to speak freely on what they like or don't like without being cast aside or forced to cater to those that feel virtuous in being protective in an effort to guide the narrative and thus apparently in their eyes somehow influence the continuation of the series. You'll never see me downplay or attempt to insincerely adjust someone's opinion on the game.

"true hardcore Dojo members and real fans" - comments like these are what many dislike. Especially from those that (1) Funded this game out of there own pocket (in some instances multiple thousands of dollars across multiple accounts) and (2) Who don't feel compelled to divulge that or fall in line with your opinions to meet a non-existent "vetting" process to be considered a real fan. It's hard to take comments like that seriously. We're probably more alike than you think, I too dropped out of gaming around the time you did and "made up" for it by funding this endeavor. I however did not have high expectations...in fact, throughout the development and general reception at release, I've been rather unconcerned in terms of how it turned out because who I am today is not the same as the child that was at one time overly emotionally invested in the series. From a finanical perspective, I don't feel slighted either. There was risk and it played out. We'll never know all of the details that played into the end product so how people feel about the game is legitimately what they feel with few if any exceptions.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything in this entire quote. But you've spent this thread so far, while agreeing with the original author's post, telling people like @spud1897 that his defense of the game is insincere. All he said was to be careful to not dismiss anyone who disagrees with the OP (a generally negative view on the game, implied by the title, which is fine), as just someone who has "resorted to calling it nitpicking", as opposed to someone with a serious point of view who wants to have a discussion, like you claim you are interested in having.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Before they go there, there is no way in hell the “Metacritic rally” thread has anything to do with the great Metacritic user average or the strong Amazon review average. There simply aren’t enough people here to game the system like that. The truth is a lot of people really like this game!

 

[register2viewspoilerforum]

@24Nathan

It's reassuring to see there are those that are able to look past faults and discover the core essence of what made Shenmue excellent. My point is, there are those that for whatever reason (legitimacy not in question) can't or won't do that and they make up a subset of the audience that would have been helpful to capture. I don't read many published critic scores or utilize Metacritic, it's difficult to ascertain what's genuine or not these days. I don't think I've ever visited the site and there's some potential real problems in those spheres but the fact of the matter is it's all anecodotal - sales and continued sales will tell the full story. So yes, I agree until that time it's subjective.

Setting the "child" comment aside - again, it's the totality of the small things that are of concern. Much in the same way it's the nuanced items in I and II that were done well that brought enough of us along to where we are at today.

I don't know what budget they had and no one here can claim to know either so I don't go there in defense of criticism. It could be they had enough of a budget to do better than they did in some areas but it was management of the project or timelines that bogged it down. Who knows. I think its more productive to point out what's wrong regardless of the reasons as that's what matters at retail and what needs to be addressed for continued success of the series. Shenmue III isn't going to generate pity sales over developmental problems. Indie, Kickstarter, or low budget is likely irrelevant in the eyes of anyone serious in picking this series up in the future whether a new gamer or potential investor. They're looking for a well-rounded experience that's worth the time and financial investment.

In respect to the "insincerity" conversation, I stand by what I said and those that agree understand where I'm coming from. Those that disagree may find themselves unexpectedly agreeing over time. If they don't then maybe I was wrong or there was a change in behavior towards those that reply to criticism of the game.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

You have a new studio that developed its first game, which is apparently riddled with issues only an amateur could make. Not sure how Ys Net could accomplish anything you’d like them to accomplish. I’d be shocked if they’re able to fix many of these flaws next time around.

Perhaps it’s better to let the people who enjoy Shenmue 3 continue enjoying it and face the fact that what you like about Shenmue is gone and won’t ever return? Maybe that’ll make the next game less disappointing.

 

[24Nathan]

Setting the "child" comment aside - again, it's the totality of the small things that are of concern. Much in the same way it's the nuanced items in I and II that were done well that brought enough of us along to where we are at today.

I think for some people, I & II were always going to be held impossibly high for III to jump up and reach. Shenmue games are my favorite games ever, but I definitely think some are over romanticizing them now in comparison with III.

I don't know what budget they had and no one here can claim to know either so I don't go there in defense of criticism. It could be they had enough of a budget to do better than they did in some areas but it was management of the project or timelines that bogged it down. Who knows.

I think @Switch had translated part of the IGN stream with Yu Suzuki closer to release and they said the total budget was around $12 million. I can't find the link, but I'm fairly certain that was stated.

I think its more productive to point out what's wrong regardless of the reasons as that's what matters at retail and what needs to be addressed for continued success of the series. Shenmue III isn't going to generate pity sales over developmental problems. Indie, Kickstarter, or low budget is likely irrelevant in the eyes of anyone serious in picking this series up in the future whether a new gamer or potential investor. They're looking for a well-rounded experience that's worth the time and financial investment.

No argument here. A typical gamer, a parent or relative or a gamer looking for a gift, etc. isn't going to know anything about why certain things are the way they are...here, the games has to speak for itself, for better or for worse.

In respect to the "insincerity" conversation, I stand by what I said and those that agree understand where I'm coming from. Those that disagree may find themselves unexpectedly agreeing over time. If they don't then maybe I was wrong or there was a change in behavior towards those that reply to criticism of the game.

Very audacious to say that anyone who disagrees with your certain viewpoint will either learn to agree with you or change. Or passively, "maybe I was wrong". This is what the original issue was. You say everyone's opinions are welcome, but anyone who likes the game seems to be insincere and unable to see the flaws that you and others do. It contradicts itself. It is impossible to discuss, as it is painting an absolute. You can have the "everyone else is dumber than me" mentality with regards to liking the game or whatever, but the logic is simply flawed. Needs to stop.

 

[register2viewspoilerforum]

24Nathan:

There's a continued misunderstanding of what I was saying which is driving misrepresentation. Whether it's my fault for not laying my point out effectively or otherwise, I've ceded it's not helpful to this topic at this point to continue with it. Fair enough?