IGN Discusses why Shenmue 3’s ending is a big disappointment

[danielmann861]

Cmon dude. There's nothing to do with this. They (dev team) didn't think that way. Chai's a fan service. But it's dull they did all the battle be summarized on 3 qte. One of the best moments in Shenmue 1, was beating Chai at the arcade. If you bring that back, lots of nostalgia and good vibes would be all over the place. A fan would love it. I agree on the matter of Ryo has regressed on his martial arts skills. He beats Chai, Yuan, Baihu, black suits and Don Niu. Mastered predictive explosion. Narratively, would be better have him beating those thugs, then losing for Mr Muscles by design. Then he would realize he needs more practice. I don't buy Ryo losing to ordinary thugs, just to be forced a do some training minigames. For coherence, that would need to happen when facing Mr Muscles, not the thugs. That would make sense.

Then what's the friggin point of having these games if you have no obstacles in your way to overcome? Ryo's not a badass, he's a kid with much to learn. I swear some of you are just nitpicking at this point.

He hasn't regressed...he still has much to learn...he's not a badass. He's facing off against styles he has never seen before. Of course he's gonna have troubles countering some of it. Hence why he had no fucking chance against Lan Di and everyone was telling him this. Did you miss the part where Xiuying pretty much told him you'd be dead if you were facing Lan Di?

You guys are complaining about Ryo losing some boss fights and having to learn to overcome? What do you think this is? This is standard Martial Arts B-movie story telling. The hero will always be pitted against obstacles they have to learn to overcome.

I swear, you're just nitpicking. I get it, character development is not great in this game. But some of the complaints here are just downright nitpicking.

 

[shredingskin]

In the sense I felt Ryo regressed in his martial arts is in the way he's very cocky in a lot of the cutscenes.
It was probably the lead animator / cutscene director to give Ryo more character, but it was not in the tone of a guy that a couple of months ago learned to "Judge yourself without conceit and do not show moves thoughtlessly".
Chai always felt that was just going to be a recurring sub boss in the type of annoying way.
I bet there's a trope for that kind of character, but slips my mind.
I agree that not fighting him was kinda disappointing.

 

[danielmann861]

In the sense I felt Ryo regressed in his martial arts is in the way he's very cocky in a lot of the cutscenes.
It was probably the lead animator / cutscene director to give Ryo more character, but it was not in the tone of a guy that a couple of months ago learned to "Judge yourself without conceit and do not show moves thoughtlessly".
Chai always felt that was just going to be a recurring sub boss in the type of annoying way.
I bet there's a trope for that kind of character, but slips my mind.
I agree that not fighting him was kinda disappointing.

I would have liked to fight him again too, but to be honest...I have no idea why he is even in this game? Honestly, the game could have omitted him and it would have lost nothing.

Going by one of the conversations he has with Shenhua, I think there is some truth to that. He tells her that he is very confident in his abilities to beat anyone...maybe too confident to a fault though. I mean think about it, he learns body check in one lesson and he's immediately rushing straight to the fight even though Mr Sun tells him it's gonna take more days to fully get it...so it is that he is over confident in his abilities (which I think could very much be the case given his conversation with Shenhua) or bad directing.

I stand by my original thought. Xiuying is 100% right about him in II. He only has two of the WUDE...and come the end of II, he still only has two of the WUDE. My theory has always been that by the very end of this series (which is still a ways to go) it will sink in and he will finally get it and become a better person. He's still got a long path ahead of him. But that's been my theory since the first time I played II. Hence why I don't think he has regressed...I don't think he has ever fully let it in...in spite of that one moment with Dou Niu...I still don't think he really gets it. At the end of the II, he was still dead set determined to face Lan Di and get vengeance. At the end of the three, he was practically rushing to his death. If he had truly let the WUDE in, he would have been reconsidering his actions from the end of II.

 

[shredingskin]

But it's not really in tone of his characterization, we know him as this (even if hot headed) stoic type of guy.
We never see him acting this cocky till this game, and it makes the guys feel more like a chore than actual enemies which in turn makes you feel less compelled to search for them (and you are following these guys for 80% of the game).

 

[danielmann861]

But it's not really in tone of his characterization, we know him as this (even if hot headed) stoic type of guy.
We never see him acting this cocky till this game, and it makes the guys feel more like a chore than actual enemies which in turn makes you feel less compelled to search for them (and you are following these guys for 80% of the game).

Being cocky and being maybe too confident in ones abilities are slightly different though. Yes, he not outwardly boastful about it...but that doesn't mean he isn't overly confident on the inside to a fault.

He's stoic, yes, he doesn't necessarily show a cocky demeanour...he's not boastful...but he's quick to act without thought and sometimes that's a detriment to him. I think it is more so he is overconfident and maybe too eager to jump in without giving it a thought (again, the whole ending where he rushes to Lan Di without a thought.)

Again, I can't say it bothers me because you realistically can't expect him to just learn the WUDE and suddenly become invincible to every fight that stands in his way. Something has to stand in his way otherwise Ryo would be a rather boring protag if he were just invincible because he knows some Kung Fu (or WUDE)....now whether those guys were an actual threat is debatable of course (I tend to think they're not that great a threat when you compare them to someone like Dou Niu btw) but I do see what they're going for. He's not just an invincible badass who has learned the WUDE and knows all....he still has much to learn. Again, story is not the problem for me; character development on the other hand? Well, that gets lost in this game.

If I may be presumptuous, I think what it boils down to is whether or not you like the leveling and training mechanics and by the sounds of it (please correct me if I'm wrong btw), that's where your problem seems to lie? That the game requires you to grind in order to beat these guys (alongside the lack of questionable serious threat they impose)

At least that's what it sounds like to me by the way you're saying it's a chore...but I admit I could be 100% wrong. Hence why i'm asking.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

Then what's the friggin point of having these games if you have no obstacles in your way to overcome? Ryo's not a badass, he's a kid with much to learn. I swear some of you are just nitpicking at this point.

He hasn't regressed...he still has much to learn...he's not a badass. He's facing off against styles he has never seen before. Of course he's gonna have troubles countering some of it. Hence why he had no fucking chance against Lan Di and everyone was telling him this. Did you miss the part where Xiuying pretty much told him you'd be dead if you were facing Lan Di?

You guys are complaining about Ryo losing some boss fights and having to learn to overcome? What do you think this is? This is standard Martial Arts B-movie story telling. The hero will always be pitted against obstacles they have to learn to overcome.

I swear, you're just nitpicking. I get it, character development is not great in this game. But some of the complaints here are just downright nitpicking.

That's not what i meant. Although he's not Bruce Lee, he has yet some skills. The story comes along with it. Airing the books, Catching leaves, learning the counter elbow assault, beating Baihu and Don Niu. This is how he became a better fighter. For not a single moment a meant i wanna Ryo to be a bad ass. Nor a bad ass or a noobie. He has some skills. Once he got beaten by someone that matters for the plot, he realizes he needs to improve. But, with a better storytelling conserning his martial arts improvement, would have look better, from a fan pov. Not only a fan pov. But i believe everyone's pov.
For me, became cleary the lazy creativity towards this game. The signature move, is the Body check, in Bailu. Even happen to be a move Ryo learn through out the game, he can't use the move. The second signature move is The Reverse Body Check!!! (WTFFFFFFF!!!!) wich you just need to buy it from a shop. This is beyond a crap storytelling or low budget issues.
This is a lack of respect of what we the fans love about this series.

 

[SMDzero]

That's not what i meant. Although he's not Bruce Lee, he has yet some skills. The story comes along with it. Airing the books, Catching leaves, learning the counter elbow assault, beating Baihu and Don Niu. This is how he became a better fighter. For not a single moment a meant i wanna Ryo to be a bad ass. Nor a bad ass or a noobie. He has some skills. Once he got beaten by someone that matter for the plot, he realizes he needs to improve. But, with a better storytelling conserning his martial arts improvement, would have look better, from a fan pov. Not only a fan pov. But i believe everyone's pov.
For me, became cleary the lazy creativity towards this game. The signature move, is the Body check, in Bailu. Even happen to be a move Ryo learn through out the game, he can't use the move. The second signature move is The Reverse Body Check!!! (WTFFFFFFF!!!!) wich you just need to buy it from a shop. This is beyond a crap storytelling or low budget issues.
This is a lack of respect of what we the fans love about this series.

The move is called the booty bump. GET IT RIGHT!

 

[HazukiFCBR]

In the sense I felt Ryo regressed in his martial arts is in the way he's very cocky in a lot of the cutscenes.
It was probably the lead animator / cutscene director to give Ryo more character, but it was not in the tone of a guy that a couple of months ago learned to "Judge yourself without conceit and do not show moves thoughtlessly".
Chai always felt that was just going to be a recurring sub boss in the type of annoying way.
I bet there's a trope for that kind of character, but slips my mind.
I agree that not fighting him was kinda disappointing.

Pretty much Shenmue 2's Yuan. Several encounters leading to a final battle. 90% of the fan base would expect that.

 

[Budgiecat]

But it's not really in tone of his characterization, we know him as this (even if hot headed) stoic type of guy.
We never see him acting this cocky till this game, and it makes the guys feel more like a chore than actual enemies which in turn makes you feel less compelled to search for them (and you are following these guys for 80% of the game).

eh?

He acted cocky against Ren and Chen in the last 2 games

I swear some of you forget what games you were playing lol

 

[Budgiecat]

That's not what i meant. Although he's not Bruce Lee, he has yet some skills. The story comes along with it. Airing the books, Catching leaves, learning the counter elbow assault, beating Baihu and Don Niu. This is how he became a better fighter. For not a single moment a meant i wanna Ryo to be a bad ass. Nor a bad ass or a noobie. He has some skills. Once he got beaten by someone that matters for the plot, he realizes he needs to improve. But, with a better storytelling conserning his martial arts improvement, would have look better, from a fan pov. Not only a fan pov. But i believe everyone's pov.
For me, became cleary the lazy creativity towards this game. The signature move, is the Body check, in Bailu. Even happen to be a move Ryo learn through out the game, he can't use the move. The second signature move is The Reverse Body Check!!! (WTFFFFFFF!!!!) wich you just need to buy it from a shop. This is beyond a crap storytelling or low budget issues.
This is a lack of respect of what we the fans love about this series.

cmon man knock this shit off already jesus you're only depressing yourself more and diving further into hyperbole


We already explained numerous times the last two games despite being labeled as "RPGs" did not have a means of Ryo actually going through the Wude in terms of how martial arts are learned.

You dont learn or master a move by reading a book.

Or catching a leaf a few times.

This game expained that through THREE martial arts masters telling Ryo that, which is the same thing Xiuying told him last game yet he's too stubborn to listen.
This game now finally gives us a promixity of what it takes to learn Martial arts which is daily rigorous training.
Because the last two games were modeled after VF, it used a fighting game engine, therefore there were less RPG aspects.
This game actually makes more sense now in terms training to become a master of martial arts; and yet, all Ryo's training in this game and he still was nothing to Lan Di. That means he has much to learn. If anything, Lan Di was toying with him he coulda killed him easily. This sets up the path that we finalyl know Ryo must continue to train hard and improve himself to defeat Lan Di, something his masters have been continuously telling him since the first game.

 

[Mystere]

Ryo has regressed because he gets his ass kicked by a SatAM cartoon thug in Bailu Village, a thug so trivial he'd be a wrestler in Kowloon if he wasn't beating up and kidnapping old men for Red Snakes money.

So far in his quest, Ryo has beaten fearsome opponents like Chai, Master Baihu, and Dou Niu in epic battles of life and death. Chai and Master Baihu displayed incredible martial arts skills. Dou Niu was an unstoppable force.

Is rent-a-thug is a better martial artist than Master Baihu? Or more of a unit than Dou Niu? 'Cos if so, I didn't buy it.

 

[Budgiecat]

Ryo has regressed because he gets his ass kicked by a SatAM cartoon thug in Bailu Village, a thug so trivial he'd be a wrestler in Kowloon if he wasn't beating up and kidnapping old men for Red Snakes money.

So far in his quest, Ryo has beaten fearsome opponents like Chai, Master Baihu, and Dou Niu in epic battles of life and death. Chai and Master Baihu displayed incredible martial arts skills. Dou Niu was an unstoppable force.

Is rent-a-thug is a better martial artist than Master Baihu? Or more of a unit than Dou Niu? 'Cos if so, I didn't buy it.

honestly he never should have won against those previous characters; maybe Chai for plot purposes, but he shouldnt have been beating any 'masters'. Like I said, the previous games didnt really have true RPG leveling mechanics so it was more of a fighting game mechanic win or lose situation forced for plot reasons. Also, regarding Dou Niu, perhaps he just looked fearsome but lacked actual skill. A hit is a hit after all. Properly timed and well executed the bigger they are the harder they fall. But that doesnt mean you can win every fight you ever encounter just because you beat someone else in the past. Ask any MMA competitor (when they're not trying to be cocky). You win some you lose some and there is always someone better out there.

 

[darksniper]

Ryo has always been stubborn and cocky to a fault.

Shenmue I- Gets ragdolled in the beginning of the game, swears he's going to beat his ass when they meet up again

Shenmue II- After all of what Xiuying taught him about the Wude, see's Lan Di on the helicopter, Ryo gets triggered all of that goes out the window

Shenmue III- Finally gets a legit one on one fight with Lan Di. Gets his ass beat again. Moments later he's hiking up the Great Wall saying he's going to beat his ass next time

Hopefully Shenmue IV or V we will see Ryo develop the other two Wude Xiuying said he was missing. I agree with Danielmann that while Shenmue III's story has it faults, this part remained very consistent with the other II games.

 

[Budgiecat]

Ryo has always been stubborn and cocky to a fault.

Shenmue I- Gets ragdolled in the beginning of the game, swears he's going to beat his ass when they meet up again

Shenmue II- After all of what Xiuying taught him about the Wude, see's Lan Di on the helicopter, Ryo gets triggered all of that goes out the window

Shenmue III- Finally gets a legit one on one fight with Lan Di. Gets his ass beat again. Moments later he's hiking up the Great Wall saying he's going to beat his ass next time

Hopefully Shenmue IV or V we will see Ryo develop the other two Wude Xiuying said he was missing. I agree with Danielmann that while Shenmue III's story has it faults, this part remained very consistent with the other II games.

Usually in martial arts movies, typically the old Shaw Brothers or Golden Harvest ones from the 70's and 80's, whenever a humbling, humiliating, near death defeat would occur, the protagonist/protagonists would go 'back to the drawing board' and train even harder, perhaps sometimes for years, then come back, get beat again, or win depending on what kind of new revelation they thought of to beat said opponent, sometimes even dying in the process of defeating the villain.


examples:

Drunken Master
5 Shaolin Masters
Crippled Avengers/Mortal Combat
Snake in the Eagle's Shadow

One particular one I remember was 'Executioners from Shaolin', where the main protagonist had to defeat the white eyebrowed master Pai Mei (remember him from Kill Bill lol) and he almost died the first time. Went back to train, had a kid, that kid grew to be a teenager, the protagonist came back, tried to defeat Pai Mei again, died, then his son took over, also trained for many years, also nearly died, but from what his father had discovered about Pai Mei, learned his weakness and defeated him.

Its commendable I guess that Ryo has the confidence to seek out and defeat Lan Di but ultimately he is thinking with his heart not his mind which is what his masters keep trying to teach him. After all, Iwao shoulda been better than Ryo yet lost to Lan Di so what chance did Ryo ever have unless he trained rigorously under new masters to learn more on how to defeat Lan Di. That should have been in Ryo's head all along, but he ran out to try to find and defeat Lan Di regardless, even though deep down he knew he never stood a chance.

Bruce Lee movies were the exception. He was always an unbeatable badass in those movies. Or the Sonny Chiba 'Street Fighter' movies
I think thats the problem with some people here: they think Ryo is more 'Bruce Lee' than he is 'Shaw Brothers/Golden Harvest' and they dont realize that this game has made speciific modifications to highlight the process of training to become a better martial artist as opposed to 'this guys an unbeatable badass' like the last two games which had more to do with the fact those games were running on a fighting game engine and size wise could not fully incorporate rpg mechanics to emphasis the element of training daily to improve oneself.

 

[shredingskin]

You guys are talking like I said Ryo should defeat Lan Di with a fart blast.
There's a scene with the first thugs where he pretty much toys with the guys and one hits him with his back turned. I get that they tried to give him more of a personality and make the QTE entertaining but it's not worth it if basically you shit on the whole persona of the character (and the development he should have made in 2).
There's another cutscene that Ryo is catching the guy from falling down and kept playing with him, he even rolled his eyes. How am I supposed to get invested if even the main character looks bored and bothered ?
They tried to make him look cool, but it didn't mesh well with the character development, it's just bad writing and directing.

 

[SMDzero]

It would have been great to have Ryo and Lan Di fight in a burning Tulou in Baisha Village after an epic infiltration mission where you get to play as Ryo, Ren and Shenhua.

 

[Budgiecat]

You guys are talking like I said Ryo should defeat Lan Di with a fart blast.
There's a scene with the first thugs where he pretty much toys with the guys and one hits him with his back turned. I get that they tried to give him more of a personality and make the QTE entertaining but it's not worth it if basically you shit on the whole persona of the character (and the development he should have made in 2).
There's another cutscene that Ryo is catching the guy from falling down and kept playing with him, he even rolled his eyes. How am I supposed to get invested if even the main character looks bored and bothered ?
They tried to make him look cool, but it didn't mesh well with the character development, it's just bad writing and directing.

In the first Shenmue, when Ryo went against those two high school goons that were bullying that kid with the soccer ball, he also toyed with them and pretty much took them out effortlessly. This isn't new.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

Actually, keep comparing Shenmue 1&2 with Shen3, in story, storytelling and character development does not make any sense. Shenmue 1&2 is way higher above Shen3. We could have a fine discussion regarding other elements though.

 

[Budgiecat]

Actually, keep comparing Shenmue 1&2 with Shen3, in story, storytelling and character development does not make any sense. Shenmue 1&2 is way higher above Shen3. We could have a fine discussion regarding other elements though.

We've had 20 years to digest and pick apart every minute detail of Shenmue 1 & 2, building up two decades worth of retrospective critiquing and analysis from years of discussions and multiple playthroughs through several documentaries, GDC postmortems, etc. Not even a month has gone by for Shenmue 3. So there's that. The story of Shenmue though has always been simple. Its the gameplay journey of immersion really that is its true core.

 

[shredingskin]

In the first Shenmue, when Ryo went against those two high school goons that were bullying that kid with the soccer ball, he also toyed with them and pretty much took them out effortlessly. This isn't new.

3:45
0:25
There's a very big difference, in one Ryo hits a guy with a ball and a guy trying to sneak upon him.
In the other Ryo just playfully touches his arm and punches him with his back turned.
Also inbetween there is a whole game dedicated to grow him as a martial artist and to calm down.