Kickstarter Project Update #103: A message from Ys Net, Epic Games & Deep Silver

[GhostTrick]

I'm not sure about this part. Fangamer is the fulfilment partner. They took control of pledge upgrades. But they personally didn't take any money from us. The money went straight to YsNet. Fangamer is like a holding area for pledges, an intermediary. They got paid by YsNet probably for this service, but our pledge upgrade money didn't go to Fangamer, it went to YsNet. At least as I understand it.

Not only upgrades. But additionnal ones. There's a reason why when you fullfilled your order on Fangamer, you had a prepaid amount of money. It's because they did more than fulfilment. They took over.

Fangamer didn't just sent you a survey asking "what do you want ?". They sent you an order page with every characteristics of an order. A price, an item name (namely a Steam code/Steam disc, which has nothing to do with the sys req. It's litterally the item denomination).

Another YouTube video that actually speaks some truth! Yeah, this whole ordeal has made me completely lose respect for people like Rich from ReviewTechUSA and YongYea.

The problem is that video is it's focusing on the wrong aspect. People keep saying "You're not owed anything from Kickstarter". Right. I agree. That's long past. The problem is the late stage. The most important one. The order fullfilment.

 

[Reprise]

Yeah, this whole ordeal has made me completely lose respect for people like Rich from ReviewTechUSA.

No offence, but he's the guy who claimed network infrastructure affects resolution... https://www.dualshockers.com/fud-vi...s-complete-bogus-heres-some-damning-evidence/

 

[B-Man]

The problem is that video is it's focusing on the wrong aspect. People keep saying "You're not owed anything from Kickstarter". Right. I agree. That's long past. The problem is the late stage. The most important one. The order fullfilment.

That's fine, but there are major news outlets and popular YouTubers that are flat-out spreading lies and misinformation about the Kickstarter promising Steam keys from the beginning. The backer survey situation is a different issue. It's just infurating how there's this widespread narrative that "we were promised a Steam version for years" when in reality the vast majority of backers paid their money when Steam had never even been referenced a single time anywhere.

Also, this video acknowledges that the backer survey mentioned Steam and says that he doesn't agree with the decision. But unlike so many others, he's telling facts and not lies.

No offence, but he's the guy who claimed network infrastructure affects resolution... https://www.dualshockers.com/fud-vi...s-complete-bogus-heres-some-damning-evidence/

I never really followed the guy closely or anything. I've watched a few of his videos in the past. All I know is that he has a huge audience and he's contributing to the false narrative that the Kickstarter lied and that people paid money specifically for a Steam version (maybe they did, but they made that up in their own head).

 

[GhostTrick]

That's fine, but there are major news outlets and popular YouTubers that are flat-out spreading lies and misinformation about the Kickstarter promising Steam keys from the beginning. The backer survey situation is a different issue. It's just infurating how there's this widespread narrative that "we were promised a Steam version for years" when in reality the vast majority of backers paid their money when Steam had never even been referenced a single time anywhere.

Also, this video acknowledges that the backer survey mentioned Steam and says that he doesn't agree with the decision. But unlike so many others, he's telling facts and not lies.


I never really followed the guy closely or anything. I've watched a few of his videos in the past. All I know is that he has a huge audience and he's contributing to the false narrative that the Kickstarter lied and that people paid money specifically for a Steam version (maybe they did, but they made that up in their own head).

That's the problem around the whole thing. There's a lot of exagerations from every sides and a lot of misinformation or more like, lack of knowledge.

 

[B-Man]

That's the problem around the whole thing. There's a lot of exagerations from every sides and a lot of misinformation or more like, lack of knowledge.

That much we can agree on.

I also acknowledge that you're correct in stating that Fangamer took additional orders in addition to upgrades. There is a period of about a month and a half during which backers were able to up their pledge from a very low amount to enough for a Steam copy of the game as well as place new orders for Steam copies of the game. These people perhaps have a legitimate gripe and I would not be opposed to them being offered refunds if they are not given Steam keys.

Everybody else, however, should not be entitled to a refund because regardless of which version they picked when the surveys were sent out, they are going to get exactly what they were promised when they originally paid their money.

 

[shibeouya]

Everybody else, however, should not be entitled to a refund because regardless of which version they picked when the surveys were sent out, they are going to get exactly what they were promised when they originally paid their money.

I don't think anyone is claiming that we are "owed" a refund. But it's hard to ignore that changing terms and then refusing to refund is not a very ethical practice - perfectly legal, sure, but is it a good idea especially when most of these people are the most loyal fans? You have to remember, these people who funded the KS are the most passionate fans, and issues where passion is involved often lead to irrational actions, like the controversy we are seeing now.

I honestly take less issue with Epic, than I do regarding switching physical copies to digital. This is where I draw the line.

 

[Bule]

Not only upgrades. But additionnal ones. There's a reason why when you fullfilled your order on Fangamer, you had a prepaid amount of money. It's because they did more than fulfilment. They took over.

Fangamer didn't just sent you a survey asking "what do you want ?". They sent you an order page with every characteristics of an order. A price, an item name (namely a Steam code/Steam disc, which has nothing to do with the sys req. It's litterally the item denomination).

Yes. Fangamer provided the same sort of service that a company like Backerkit provides, which includes selling additional things in addition to pledge upgrades.

I guess we're talking slightly at cross purposes. All I'm saying (I think) is that the order you placed is with YsNet via Fangamer. It's not really an order with Fangamer in the same way as buying merchandise directly from them is an order.

 

[B-Man]

I don't think anyone is claiming that we are "owed" a refund. But it's hard to ignore that changing terms and then refusing to refund is not a very ethical practice - perfectly legal, sure, but is it a good idea especially when most of these people are the most loyal fans? You have to remember, these people who funded the KS are the most passionate fans, and issues where passion is involved often lead to irrational actions, like the controversy we are seeing now.

I honestly take less issue with Epic, than I do regarding switching physical copies to digital. This is where I draw the line.

There certainly are A TON of people claiming that we are "owed" a refund and saying a lot worse things than that too. There may not be as many of them here, because this is generally where the most passionate fans are. But if you look at every other corner of the Internet, they are everywhere. Look at these Kickstarter comments, for example. They are just pure cancer.

Yes, it would be a nice gesture of goodwill if they could offer refunds since they "changed terms" as you put it. But where do you think this money is coming from? They already used it to develop the game. That was the whole point of the Kickstarter. And I'm sorry to bring this back up again, but I absolutely do not believe that the backers wanting refunds are "the most loyal fans." The most loyal fans are the ones that are happy that their donations helped this game become a reality, even if they are understandably disappointed with this turn of events. Nothing you can say will ever make me change my stance on that.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Quite a few people say they're legally owed more than just the price of the game, but for any rewards they backed. I think that's total nonsense.

 

[shibeouya]

Ok I won't even be baited into arguing on this again. I've made my stance known, and nothing short of seeing an update from the Shenmue team will change that. People on both sides should acknowledge and respect that there are different opinions, and not try to claim they are the "right" side, that is all I will say on the topic - this thread has already become too toxic.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I appreciate your sentiment, but it appears you joined the forum to browbeat others with your opinion and then complain when anyone argues with you.

This is a forum by and for Shenmue fans, many of whom waited twenty years for Shenmue 3. I can’t really see why anyone’s surprised the majority of the people here aren’t foaming at the mouth at Epic, Tim Sweeney and Yu Suzuki over what many of us view as a minor inconvenience to some people.

 

[shibeouya]

claims people are foaming at the mouth against Epic yet foams at the mouth against people who share a different opinion

 

[Babibow]

Ok I won't even be baited into arguing on this again. I've made my stance known, and nothing short of seeing an update from the Shenmue team will change that. People on both sides should acknowledge and respect that there are different opinions, and not try to claim they are the "right" side, that is all I will say on the topic - this thread has already become too toxic.

this guy rants about shenmuedojo

 

[B-Man]

claims people are foaming at the mouth against Epic yet foams at the mouth against people who share a different opinion

Nobody is foaming at the mouth against you or anyone else stating their concerns in a civilized manner. If anyone is "foaming at the mouth" it's about the general outrage, the "ME ME ME" attitude, the lies and misinformation, and the fact that we're probably not going to get another Shenmue game after 3 now.

Besides, are you denying that people are foaming at the mouth at Epic, Tim Sweeney, and Yu Suzuki? If so, you really should open your eyes.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Nobody is foaming at the mouth against you or anyone else stating their concerns in a civilized manner. If anyone is "foaming at the mouth" it's about the general outrage, the "ME ME ME" attitude, the lies and misinformation, and the fact that we're probably not going to get another Shenmue game after 3 now.

Besides, are you denying that people are foaming at the mouth at Epic, Tim Sweeney, and Yu Suzuki? If so, you really should open your eyes.

Writes that after LITERALLY TYPING, "lies and information."

Come on man; how about we leave this thread alone and worry about better things?

 

[shibeouya]

Nobody is foaming at the mouth against you or anyone else stating their concerns in a civilized manner

Okay. I've been in this forum for not so long compared to some of you, and some have gone out of their way to make it very clear that newcomers' opinions are unwelcome, but let me still try to explain.

I've been trying to make my point heard in a very civil way - always respecting the other "side" even if I disagree, and never calling out anyone personally for their opinion.

On the other hand, I've seen people call each other rabble-rousers, not true fans, discounting their opinion because they're new, even some dirty names were thrown. This has happened on both sides, let's not make it sound like there is a "good" and "evil" side please. And people are ok with that? Why can't we have a civil discussion about this, without everyone feeling the need to take a digital dump on the other side? Why does commenting here feel like participating in some kind of war?

You know, when I look at this thread this is no better than what is happening on the KS forums, with each side bashing against the other in an endless cycle of doom and gloom. I was hoping we could have a better and more focused discussion about this situation here, but sounds like this is no different. Yet some people here still make fun about the KS forums, but maybe it is time to look in the mirror.

My only point is that, whatever your opinion on the matter may be, you need to respect the other side's opinion even if you disagree. Not doing that muddies whatever point you are making and makes people unwilling to listen.

 

[B-Man]

Writes that after LITERALLY TYPING, "lies and information."

Come on man; how about we leave this thread alone and worry about better things?

What are you talking about? I'm not stating anything as fact. Obviously I hope I'm wrong and they begin development on Shenmue IV immediately after Shenmue III is released. Nothing would make me happier. But the future for Shenmue is not looking too bright right now, is it?

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I shouldn't have even written anything lol.

sigh just forget about it.

this guy rants about shenmuedojo

This is beyond inflammatory and unnecessary; obviously someone is salty, but a hate video? What are you, 12 in a rap battle?

 

[B-Man]

Okay. I've been in this forum for not so long compared to some of you, and some have gone out of their way to make it very clear that newcomers' opinions are unwelcome, but let me still try to explain.

I've been trying to make my point heard in a very civil way - always respecting the other "side" even if I disagree, and never calling out anyone personally for their opinion.

On the other hand, I've seen people call each other rabble-rousers, not true fans, discounting their opinion because they're new, even some dirty names were thrown. This has happened on both sides, let's not make it sound like there is a "good" and "evil" side please. And people are ok with that? Why can't we have a civil discussion about this, without everyone feeling the need to take a digital dump on the other side? Why does commenting here feel like participating in some kind of war?

You know, when I look at this thread this is no better than what is happening on the KS forums, with each side bashing against the other in an endless cycle of doom and gloom. I was hoping we could have a better and more focused discussion about this situation here, but sounds like this is no different. Yet some people here still make fun about the KS forums, but maybe it is time to look in the mirror.

My only point is that, whatever your opinion on the matter may be, you need to respect the other side's opinion even if you disagree. Not doing that muddies whatever point you are making and makes people unwilling to listen.

Look, I don't give a crap about the length of time you've been a member here. I was a member of the old Dojo forums and posted a lot from like 2003-2006 but then I didn't post a single time for like 12-13 years. I highly doubt anyone remembers me or knows who I am. That's not the issue here.

I'm just not sure what you want people to say in this thread. You keep posting about how everybody's opinion counts and we should all respect each other and live in harmony. Then you keep complaining about your physical PC copy of the game. What do you want us to do? Nobody here can give you a refund. And I'm sorry that many people here disagree with you. That's just the way it is.

Yeah, there is a lot of doom and gloom here right now. What do you expect in this thread? Any toxicity being displayed here is a byproduct of and a response to everything else that's going on. I'm sure that myself and many others are having a defensive reaction to the sentiment elsewhere that Yu Suzuki and Shenmue III are now the devil's spawn.

If you really just want to talk about how excited you are about the game itself, shouldn't you take it to one of the other threads where that discussion is more appropriate?

 

[shibeouya]

You keep posting about how everybody's opinion counts and we should all respect each other and live in harmony. Then you keep complaining about your physical PC copy of the game. What do you want us to do?

That's fine, I am explaining the reason for me being disappointed by the situation, and I respect people who don't care about that, and do not expect everyone to agree with me - such is life. Only thing I was hoping for is we could have a constructive discussion about it, to have each side explain their viewpoint without it turning into some kind of battle royale.

And I'm sorry that many people here disagree with you. That's just the way it is.

You don't need to be sorry, and that is more than fine that some people feel differently. You in particular I can see that even though we have disagreements you are not being inflammatory for the sake of it and are actively searching dialogue. But unfortunately I can't say the same for many posters I've seen here, and that goes on both sides.

Any toxicity being displayed here is a byproduct of and a response to everything else that's going on. I'm sure that myself and many others are having a defensive reaction to the sentiment elsewhere that Yu Suzuki and Shenmue III are now the devil's spawn.

That is totally understandable, and dialogue on the issue is important. Some have been overly defensive, and one could even say provocative. I won't name anyone, but it is very clear that some here and on the KS on both sides have been provoking and trolling the other side just for the sake of it. If there's 1 thing I ever learned about social situations, it's that provoking someone who is already upset is rarely a good idea and is often counter-productive.

If you really just want to talk about how excited you are about the game itself, shouldn't you take it to one of the other threads where that discussion is more appropriate?

Like I said I think it's important to discuss, but is shouting at each other really the only way to have a dialogue on the issue? And again I don't mean you specifically, you don't strike me as someone stirring trouble.