Past, present and future

[~ ひかり ~]

A lot of Shenmue fans knows that the original name for the project was Virtua Fighter RPG, and that the main character was not Ryo, was Akira. I wanna start by saying that i love the chapters concept arts, the arts are so amazing, i really want to find the arts in good quality, anyone know who did the arts?

A lot of things changed, i remember one day when someone told me that the original idea was 16 chapters, but Yu-san had to cut a lot, in the image of the concept arts we see 11 chapters.

About the chapters Yu-san said this... "To be precise, Shenmue I is the whole of Chapter 1, as is. And Shenmue II corresponds with the Hong Kong chapter. The part about meeting Shenhua was originally in Chapters 5 and 6. I moved just the part about meeting her to Shenmue II. Actually Chapter 3 was on a train. The scenes take place inside a train. So Chapter 3 hasn’t been used at all. In total there are 11 chapters, and so I could properly visualize how they would fit together, the first thing I did was to make a novel. So that's the form I put them in, and I use it as a base reference. It's not meant to represent the exact scenarios for the game, though. "

I don't use it to decide "this event goes here, this quest goes here, this flag gets set here" and so on. "It doesn’t directly dictate the scenarios for the game. Rather, it's one of the things I use to drive the scenarios for Shenmue. With Shenmue III, even if I forcibly took the story through to the end of Chapter 11, well... You see, I make decisions to keep or exclude various parts as I go along. Now, at this point I don't know whether Shenmue III will have 30 hours of play time or 60 hours, but if the story is forced to advance along, I could tell that this wouldn’t produce a satisfactory result as a game. So, although unfortunately the story won’t reach the end with Shenmue III, it was a decision I made for the sake of the game's quality. "

I want to do two lists, we now have Shenmue III so i want to make a updated list about the chapters, a list to talk about the present and future of Shenmue, and i want to do another list where i want to reflect about the original idea when was called VFRPG, in this list i want to look at the past and what was shown in GDC 2014. Feel free to help me with the lists.

Shenmue
Chapter I : Yokosuka (Shenmue I)
Chapter II : Hong Kong (Shenmue II)
Chapter III : Guilin (Shenmue II and Shenmue III)
Chapter IV : Niaowu (Shenmue III)
Chapter V
Chapter VI
Chapter VII
Chapter VIII
Chapter IX
Chapter X
Chapter XI

Virtua Fighter RPG
Chapter I : Yokosuka
Chapter II: Hong Kong
Chapter III : Train
Chapter IV: Suzhou
Chapter V : Guilin
Chapter VI : Xian
Chapter VII: Luoyang
Chapter VIII: Cangzhou
Chapter IX: Inner Mongolia (city unknown, possibly rural)
Chapter X: Beijing
Chapter XI: Xinjiang (again, city unknown)

I will leave like this so we can think about this together, i will edit later.

I created this thread so we can talk about VFRPG, the chapters, the concept arts, where are we now in the story of Shenmue and what could have been, a thread to talk about the past, the present and the future of Shenmue. I love to talk about this, share your thoughts if you want, thanks.

 

[Mittens2317]

I've now seen more topics about chapters than Suzuki has planned and reworked them. Prior to cutting the boat chapter, I know that it was supposed to go like this:

Chapter 1: Yokosuka
Chapter 2: Genpu-Maru (The Boat) CUT
Chapter 3: Wan Chai
Chapter 4: Kowloon
Chapter 5: River Li CUT
Chapter 6: Guilin (partially CUT as it was supposed to be Bailu Village, but didn't appear here)

This topic from the Old Dojo might help with a few things:

https://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43957

 

[Dg1995]

Wasn't at the first game Ryo supposed to meet Shenhua when Shenmue was still Virtua Fighter RPG on Saturn?

In the Saturn trailer they showed Ryo meeting Shenhua cutscene even though that she was supposed to appear at episode 6 of the story.

 

[hmjohnny]

The chapter structure has changed quite a bit over the years. there are screenshots of chapter booklets showing Baisha as chapter 5 when that doesn't correspond to the original VFRPG. Also, the boat was never an official chapter as far as I know, but was often called that by fans. It may have been one of the chapters on the expanded list including the Li river chapter (S2 Disc 4). Again, this is all speculative as there is information out there that contradicts each other on the chapter structure.

That said, it seems that going forward Suzuki wants to stick closer to the original VFRPG 11 chapter structure, although even that has been altered in the execution of the games. Since he does often refer to the original 11 chapters I'm assuming that was what the structure of the original story was before being expanded upon in gameplay scenarios.

The original VFRPG chapters are:

1) Yokosuka
2) Hong Kong
3) Train
4) Suzhou
5) Guilin
6) Xian
7) Luoyang
8) Cangzhou
9) Inner Mongolia (city unknown, possibly rural)
10) Beijing
11) Xinjiang (again, city unknown)

How this corresponds to Shenmue going forward is beyond me since it seems that the chapter structure has gone out the window with S3, but we'll see.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

The chapter structure has changed quite a bit over the years. there are screenshots of chapter booklets showing Baisha as chapter 5 when that doesn't correspond to the original VFRPG. Also, the boat was never an official chapter as far as I know, but was often called that by fans. It may have been one of the chapters on the expanded list including the Li river chapter (S2 Disc 4). Again, this is all speculative as there is information out there that contradicts each other on the chapter structure.

That said, it seems that going forward Suzuki wants to stick closer to the original VFRPG 11 chapter structure, although even that has been altered in the execution of the games. Since he does often refer to the original 11 chapters I'm assuming that was what the structure of the original story was before being expanded upon in gameplay scenarios.

The original VFRPG chapters are:

1) Yokosuka
2) Hong Kong
3) Train
4) Suzhou
5) Guilin
6) Xian
7) Luoyang
8) Cangzhou
9) Inner Mongolia (city unknown, possibly rural)
10) Beijing
11) Xinjiang (again, city unknown)

How this corresponds to Shenmue going forward is beyond me since it seems that the chapter structure has gone out the window with S3, but we'll see.

Really interesting, i will edit my first post. Thanks for all this information.

 

[JCJ]

The chapter structure has changed quite a bit over the years. there are screenshots of chapter booklets showing Baisha as chapter 5 when that doesn't correspond to the original VFRPG. Also, the boat was never an official chapter as far as I know, but was often called that by fans. It may have been one of the chapters on the expanded list including the Li river chapter (S2 Disc 4). Again, this is all speculative as there is information out there that contradicts each other on the chapter structure.

That said, it seems that going forward Suzuki wants to stick closer to the original VFRPG 11 chapter structure, although even that has been altered in the execution of the games. Since he does often refer to the original 11 chapters I'm assuming that was what the structure of the original story was before being expanded upon in gameplay scenarios.

The original VFRPG chapters are:

1) Yokosuka
2) Hong Kong
3) Train
4) Suzhou
5) Guilin
6) Xian
7) Luoyang
8) Cangzhou
9) Inner Mongolia (city unknown, possibly rural)
10) Beijing
11) Xinjiang (again, city unknown)

How this corresponds to Shenmue going forward is beyond me since it seems that the chapter structure has gone out the window with S3, but we'll see.

I'm not really versed on Chinese geography, so would where Niaowu and Baisha fit in this plan? (from a purely location perspective, not taking the plot into account). Niaowu is a fictional city, but seems to be based on Fenghuang. Would it correspond to Suzhou, or to Xian? And Baisha?

 

[Rydeen]

I'm not really versed on Chinese geography, so would where Niaowu and Baisha fit in this plan? (from a purely location perspective, not taking the plot into account). Niaowu is a fictional city, but seems to be based on Fenghuang. Would it correspond to Suzhou, or to Xian? And Baisha?

Niaowu is located on the Li River in Shenmue III, which is in Guilin.

Baisha comes after Guilin in the novelization chapter structure. If we assume that the map outlined at the postmortem still applies to those, then Baisha should be near Xian, most likely.

 

[WuyingRen]

Niaowu is located on the Li River in Shenmue III, which is in Guilin.

Baisha comes after Guilin in the novelization chapter structure. If we assume that the map outlined at the postmortem still applies to those, then Baisha should be near Xian, most likely.

Baisha is nowhere near Xi’an though. It’s actually very close to Guilin (Baisha is about an hour south of Guillin in Liuzhou whereas Xi’an is about 15 hours north).

Looking at the map picture from the postmortem it seems that some of the chapter cards are just placed around the area where they take place rather than slap bang on top of the spots.

I asked my wife to take a look at the picture and she seems to think that it shows Guillin -> Xi’an -> Luoyang.

 

[hmjohnny]

Baisha is nowhere near Xi’an though. It’s actually very close to Guilin (Baisha is about an hour south of Guillin in Liuzhou whereas Xi’an is about 15 hours north).

Looking at the map picture from the postmortem it seems that some of the chapter cards are just placed around the area where they take place rather than slap bang on top of the spots.

I asked my wife to take a look at the picture and she seems to think that it shows Guillin -> Xi’an -> Luoyang.

Baisha is actually based on Fujian (the tulous) which is south of Shanghai. Of course in this fictional China Suzuki could put it wherever he wants.

Your wife is correct in that the original tile chapters go: Guillin -> Xi’an -> Luoyang

Baisha was never part of the 11 chapter structure.

Baisha comes after Guilin in the novelization chapter structure. If we assume that the map outlined at the postmortem still applies to those, then Baisha should be near Xian, most likely.

I'm inclined to believe it's been cut at this point. Even Xian is likely to be cut to condense the story down to its essence. I can see Luoyang and Cangzhou and probably Beijing still being in for future titles but the other chapters being condensed or incorporated into them.

 

[WuyingRen]

Baisha is actually based on Fujian (the tulous) which is south of Shanghai. Of course in this fictional China Suzuki could put it wherever he wants.

Your wife is correct in that the original tile chapters go: Guillin -> Xi’an -> Luoyang

Baisha was never part of the 11 chapter structure.

I’m more inclined to believe that Baisha is based on Baisha and that the tulous have been incorporated into its design in the interest of condensing things a little. Looking at the map picture there certainly seems to be an image in the general vicinity of Baisha and the real Baisha is also known for its snowy mountains (something that I feel was alluded to by YS when discussing the in game Baisha).

 

[Rydeen]

Baisha is nowhere near Xi’an though. It’s actually very close to Guilin (Baisha is about an hour south of Guillin in Liuzhou whereas Xi’an is about 15 hours north).

Looking at the map picture from the postmortem it seems that some of the chapter cards are just placed around the area where they take place rather than slap bang on top of the spots.

I asked my wife to take a look at the picture and she seems to think that it shows Guillin -> Xi’an -> Luoyang.

Real-world Baisha are actually dotted all over China.

Baisha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are even a few in Fujian, apparently, but there are also some in Chongqing province, just south of Shaanxi province. I don't know if you were looking at that specific Baisha in Liuzhou for some other reason, though.

The map shows the Xian area coming next. That's really all I meant. The story novelizations have the chapter for Baisha after the chapter for Guilin, so if those chapters mirror the map trajectory, Baisha should be located somewhere between Guilin and Xian, theoretically.

Theoretically we could also just be jumping straight to the Luoyong area for the next game. Who knows. That's really something we'll just have to wait to find out.

 

[WuyingRen]

Real-world Baisha are actually dotted all over China.

Baisha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are even a few in Fujian, apparently, but there are also some in Chongqing province, just south of Shaanxi province. I don't know if you were looking at that specific Baisha in Liuzhou for some other reason, though.

The map shows the Xian area coming next. That's really all I meant. The story novelizations have the chapter for Baisha after the chapter for Guilin, so if those chapters mirror the map trajectory, Baisha should be located somewhere between Guilin and Xian, theoretically.

Theoretically we could also just be jumping straight to the Luoyong area for the next game. Who knows. That's really something we'll just have to wait to find out.

My only real basis for this assumption is it’s proximity to Guillin and the programming of snow into the weather engine of the third game.

If the plan remains to head north to Xi’an after the southern/Guilin area and we know that Baisha is ‘next’, it suggests to me that we haven’t finished exploring the southern area yet and will stop off in Baisha before departing for Xi’an.

That said, there’s evidence to suggest that either the Baisha we’re visiting is not the one in Liuzhao or that the plan is no longer to head to Baisha as we see Ryo and co on a section of the Great Wall. This would however also suggest that both Xi’an and Luoyong have been skipped over as they are south of the Great Wall meaning that the group would have had to pass through these areas to reach the wall.

 

[Rydeen]

My only real basis for this assumption is it’s proximity to Guillin and the programming of snow into the weather engine of the third game.

If the plan remains to head north to Xi’an after the southern/Guilin area and we know that Baisha is ‘next’, it suggests to me that we haven’t finished exploring the southern area yet and will stop off in Baisha before departing for Xi’an.

That said, there’s evidence to suggest that either the Baisha we’re visiting is not the one in Liuzhao or that the plan is no longer to head to Baisha as we see Ryo and co on a section of the Great Wall. This would however also suggest that both Xi’an and Luoyong have been skipped over as they are south of the Great Wall meaning that the group would have had to pass through these areas to reach the wall.

Oh yeah, that snow thing still sort of gets me. I imagine that a lot of future-proofing was done on systems that can be reused in future games, like weather, so they don't have to mess with them too much on future projects. That's how I interpret the snow, at least.

I think Xi'an is meant to be part of the western portion of the game, though, with Cangzhou and Beijing basically being the north.

Kind of depends on where they pick up with the wall. There are very old sections of the wall that extend down near Xi'an. I don't really take the last scene of SIII as literally where the story will continue from in IV, but I guess we'll have to see on that.

 

[Revan]

Speaking of snow featuring in the next potential area, here's Niao Sun walking about a snowy setting in some early promotional material that we have yet to see in the games.



According to the What's Shenmue? leaked loading screens (I remember these were posted on Shenmue 500K some years back, but I cannot seem to find them now), the story was looking to feature the following locations by the time development shifted to the Dreamcast:

• Chapter 1: Yokosuka
• Chapter 2: Cargo Ship
• Chapter 3: Hong Kong
• Chapter 4: Kowloon
• Chapter 5: Li River (in theory, this could also include Niaowu, the repurposed Suzhou chapter from VFRPG)
• Chapter 6: Baisha

I'm guessing this snowy setting is a very early interpretation of how Baisha might look. Also, "Baisha" translates to "White Sand" which could represent snow.

 

[hmjohnny]

Kind of depends on where they pick up with the wall. There are very old sections of the wall that extend down near Xi'an. I don't really take the last scene of SIII as literally where the story will continue from in IV, but I guess we'll have to see on that.

Unfortunately S3 ended in a weird place because we now have to head to the cliff temple. I'm wondering if there will be a stop along the way as well but at this point it would just feel like filler so I think it makes sense to get the cliff temple out of the way and move on.

I'm convinced that Xian is cut simply because the story needs to get moving and with limited budget they should just focus on the key areas. Cangzhou is a must, and I assume Luoyang and Beijing but even then they may change that depending on how the story gets restructured.

 

[iknifaugood]

How this corresponds to Shenmue going forward is beyond me since it seems that the chapter structure has gone out the window with S3, but we'll see.

What I don't understand is why Shenmue goes straight to Guilin and skips over the Train/Suzhou? We see as early as the Saturn version that it was always supposed to be the way that it is. From a structure perspective it seems to make more sense for Ryo to fight and lose to Lan Di first and then go to Guilin where he embarks on a more spiritual journey. I don't think this was changed due to budget reasons since this change existed well before the under-perfromance of the Dreamcast and Shenmue so I wonder what was in Suzhou; the concept art certainly makes it seem important.

I don't really take the last scene of SIII as literally where the story will continue from in IV, but I guess we'll have to see on that.

I had actually considered this as well. I doubt it simply because it would be the first time Shenmue has ever shown Ryo travelling somewhere "metaphorically" but it's also the first time there's been such a massive jump. Yuan says that the CYM are at the Cliff Temple and Lan Di is headed there with the mirror (so setting S4 up for Lan Di vs. Niao Sun at the Cliff Temple with both mirrors) which means that Ryo doesn't have a ton of time to mess around in other locations, but we also have no idea where the Cliff Temple is in relation to the Great Wall. Ryo was shown fighting Mr. Muscles on the Great Wall in trailers for S3, is there any more info on this?

Unfortunately S3 ended in a weird place because we now have to head to the cliff temple. I'm wondering if there will be a stop along the way as well but at this point it would just feel like filler so I think it makes sense to get the cliff temple out of the way and move on.

Yeah the Cliff Temple is a huge unknown. It strikes me as the type of thing that's left purposely vague so that it can be scaled based on the future scope of the series. Elder Yeh states that the map in Bailu Village is a map to the hidden treasure, and Yuan says that the Cliff Temple is what's pictured on the scroll (assuming that's the intended translation as atm it doesn't make sense that Ryo says "that's where we found the scroll"), but that contradicts the mirrors themselves being the treasure map, so who knows? It's possible that the Cliff Temple is where the treasure is located and S4 can be the end of the series; this would contradict Suzuki saying that the story is only 40% done, but then again when did he say that? Was it before or after Baisha was cut?

 

[hmjohnny]

What I don't understand is why Shenmue goes straight to Guilin and skips over the Train/Suzhou? We see as early as the Saturn version that it was always supposed to be the way that it is. From a structure perspective it seems to make more sense for Ryo to fight and lose to Lan Di first and then go to Guilin where he embarks on a more spiritual journey. I don't think this was changed due to budget reasons since this change existed well before the under-perfromance of the Dreamcast and Shenmue so I wonder what was in Suzhou; the concept art certainly makes it seem important.

It's tough to say when this change was made on the Saturn or the DC.

@Rydeen and I were discussing this in another thread and while they only show what made it into S1/2 in the Saturn video it's possible they had the other preceding chapters developed including potentially Baisha.

It could be that they made the change for S2 because they wanted to condense the story. I think what was supposed to happen is that you rescue Yuanda Zhu from Lan Di in Suzhou; essentially S3's ending. However they didn't want to drag out searching for Zhu and get to Shenhua in case the series didn't continue.

It begs the question, what was originally supposed to happen in HK if you don't find Zhu there?

FWIW I agree that the original outline is a better structure. It would make sense to lose to Lan Di then go on the inward journey. It also gives Ryo more time to stay in and explore Bailu and train since he would be at a point where his focus was to get better instead of rush on ahead to face Lan Di.

I had actually considered this as well. I doubt it simply because it would be the first time Shenmue has ever shown Ryo travelling somewhere "metaphorically" but it's also the first time there's been such a massive jump. Yuan says that the CYM are at the Cliff Temple and Lan Di is headed there with the mirror (so setting S4 up for Lan Di vs. Niao Sun at the Cliff Temple with both mirrors) which means that Ryo doesn't have a ton of time to mess around in other locations, but we also have no idea where the Cliff Temple is in relation to the Great Wall. Ryo was shown fighting Mr. Muscles on the Great Wall in trailers for S3, is there any more info on this?

I'm of the mind that the final scene on the wall isn't canon. It seems to me like a tacked on scene they created to give the game some closure after they altered the orignal ending. I think the fact that it's pre-rendered supports this theory.

S4 could start with them getting off the boat somewhere and determining to go to the temple but I also think they can't waste too much time with stuff like that. That's why I suspect a bunch of the subsequent chapters like Xian will be cut or folded in.

Yeah the Cliff Temple is a huge unknown. It strikes me as the type of thing that's left purposely vague so that it can be scaled based on the future scope of the series. Elder Yeh states that the map in Bailu Village is a map to the hidden treasure, and Yuan says that the Cliff Temple is what's pictured on the scroll (assuming that's the intended translation as atm it doesn't make sense that Ryo says "that's where we found the scroll"), but that contradicts the mirrors themselves being the treasure map, so who knows? It's possible that the Cliff Temple is where the treasure is located and S4 can be the end of the series; this would contradict Suzuki saying that the story is only 40% done, but then again when did he say that? Was it before or after Baisha was cut?

Some people have put forward the idea (myself included) that the temple is like the map room from Raiders. Otherwise if the treasure is indeed located there why put the constellations hidden on the mirrors? The treasure map in Bailu would suffice unless the former is being retconned.

However, it is possible the treasure is in the temple which could be interesting. Maybe them finding the treasure isn't the end goal of the story but happens early on and that provides a twist that changes what the rest of the story is about. This could be the catalyst for Ryo to pivot being driven by revenge to something bigger.

 

[iknifaugood]

It begs the question, what was originally supposed to happen in HK if you don't find Zhu there?

It could be that they made the change for S2 because they wanted to condense the story. I think what was supposed to happen is that you rescue Yuanda Zhu from Lan Di in Suzhou

It does make sense that Ryo would find out about the light pattern in the mirrors after Bailu Village, I've hypothesized elsewhere that it seems like Yuan and Yuanda Zhu's speeches at the end of both games should be flipped. Maybe they were?

It would make sense to lose to Lan Di then go on the inward journey. It also gives Ryo more time to stay in and explore Bailu and train since he would be at a point where his focus was to get better instead of rush on ahead to face Lan Di.

It seems as though whatever is happening beyond S3 has the potential to conform to the original structure. S4 is essentially starting at chapter 7 of those original slides and nothing from the subsequent slides has happened yet, so potentially S2/S3 are a mix of chapters 2-6 and we'll just move past whatever we haven't seen yet (RIP train).

I'm of the mind that the final scene on the wall isn't canon. It seems to me like a tacked on scene they created to give the game some closure after they altered the orignal ending. I think the fact that it's pre-rendered supports this theory.

It's certainly possible. I'm of the mind that the Cliff Temple is a known location (Xuankong Temple) and Ryo and co. being on the Great Wall is signifying that they're close since it's pretty far north and Niaowu is a fictional location (that being said, the Bailu map is a joke if it expects people to navigate from Guilin to northern China with no markers in between). This would also line up with what's depicted in the Chapter 7 card and it's placement on the map of China.

Some people have put forward the idea (myself included) that the temple is like the map room from Raiders. Otherwise if the treasure is indeed located there why put the constellations hidden on the mirrors? The treasure map in Bailu would suffice unless the former is being retconned.

We don't have enough information to know one way or the other. Elder Yeh makes it pretty clear that the treasure map is pointing to the treasure (she says the treasure is hidden in the mountains) and that treasure is the treasure of the last Emperor and Empress of the Qing dynasty, and the Dragon and Phoenix mirrors are the "key" to the treasure, which seemingly contradicts what Zhu says (he says they're a key but also says the light patterns are a map). I agree that it makes much more sense if the Cliff Temple acts as a kind of map room but then, that's a pretty weird place to hide the mirrors, especially if it's the Xuankong Temple.

However, it is possible the treasure is in the temple which could be interesting. Maybe them finding the treasure isn't the end goal of the story but happens early on and that provides a twist that changes what the rest of the story is about. This could be the catalyst for Ryo to pivot being driven by revenge to something bigger.

Hopefully. Either way, it seems as though S4 will put the story back on track if the chapter structure is still being adhered to, giving us chapter 7-11 relatively unchanged.

 

[hmjohnny]

LMAO

It does make sense that Ryo would find out about the light pattern in the mirrors after Bailu Village, I've hypothesized elsewhere that it seems like Yuan and Yuanda Zhu's speeches at the end of both games should be flipped. Maybe they were?

It's possible that information we were supposed to receive later was brought up to make the story more compelling. Not sure why this wasn't done in S3 though...

It seems as though whatever is happening beyond S3 has the potential to conform to the original structure. S4 is essentially starting at chapter 7 of those original slides and nothing from the subsequent slides has happened yet, so potentially S2/S3 are a mix of chapters 2-6 and we'll just move past whatever we haven't seen yet (RIP train).

I'm not so sure about this. For one S3 basically goes until the end of Guilin (Chapter 5). I'm not sure if much of the story from Chapter 6 was incorporated. Regardless, given there are at most 2 games left, I can't see them cramming the rest in without cutting some areas. Also, the ending of S3 probably left them in a pickle since where does the cliff temple fit into all this. Though I'm not sure the chapter structure matters anymore if it did at all.

I'm sure the train scene would have been cool, I imagine Ryo fighting in/on the train with various set pieces. Ultimately though, it was probably just a filler chapter anyway.

t's certainly possible. I'm of the mind that the Cliff Temple is a known location (Xuankong Temple) and Ryo and co. being on the Great Wall is signifying that they're close since it's pretty far north and Niaowu is a fictional location (that being said, the Bailu map is a joke if it expects people to navigate from Guilin to northern China with no markers in between). This would also line up with what's depicted in the Chapter 7 card and it's placement on the map of China.

It could be based on that temple loosely but it's definitely not actually it. Xuankong is way too far north, especially if you expect them to travel to Xian, Luoyang, Cangzhou before that. Given that Chapter 7 is Luoyang, this is way north of that.

I don't believe Chapter 7 depicts the cliff temple, it should be the Shaolin Temple, given Ryo fighting the monk. A high-res version of the image is now available in another thread.

This was pointed out to me by another user but there is a southern wall that is near Fenghuang (what Niaowu is based off). However, Niaowu is firmly on the Li river (in game says so) so a bit south of this in reality, they could have warped up there potentially as it isn't a huge stretch. That being said I wouldn't put too much stock into the ending scene. I have a feeling S4 will start before this, maybe explain how they got to the wall. My bet is that Baisha would have likely filled the gap from getting from Guilin/Niaowu to the wall.

We don't have enough information to know one way or the other. Elder Yeh makes it pretty clear that the treasure map is pointing to the treasure (she says the treasure is hidden in the mountains) and that treasure is the treasure of the last Emperor and Empress of the Qing dynasty, and the Dragon and Phoenix mirrors are the "key" to the treasure, which seemingly contradicts what Zhu says (he says they're a key but also says the light patterns are a map). I agree that it makes much more sense if the Cliff Temple acts as a kind of map room but then, that's a pretty weird place to hide the mirrors, especially if it's the Xuankong Temple.

Yeah it's a bit of a mess. Either the mirrors are keys or maps, but it seems contradictory at this point.

Hopefully. Either way, it seems as though S4 will put the story back on track if the chapter structure is still being adhered to, giving us chapter 7-11 relatively unchanged.

I just want to see the main story beats unfold. I would love Luoyang/Shaolin, Cangzhou is a must and it would be cool to get to go to Beijing. Hopefully somewhere rural makes it in, you'll get Ren on a horse.

 

[iknifaugood]

It's possible that information we were supposed to receive later was brought up to make the story more compelling. Not sure why this wasn't done in S3 though...

Yea it doesn't really make sense to switch. It would make sense if one conversation was supposed to be about Lan Di's identity and past and the other about the mirrors, as it stands there seems to be a lot of duplication. Might simply be a symptom of moving things around too much.

For one S3 basically goes until the end of Guilin (Chapter 5). I'm not sure if much of the story from Chapter 6 was incorporated.

I'm not sure we can assume that Niaowu (or its events) was supposed to be part of the original plan for Guilin; I'd be surprised if Guilin was originally ever more than what we got in S2 and Bailu Village.

Also, the ending of S3 probably left them in a pickle since where does the cliff temple fit into all this. Though I'm not sure the chapter structure matters anymore if it did at all.

So what I've been considering is that the chapters likely matter in terms of the broad strokes of the story and perhaps some cool setting ideas, but no longer the actual locations. I think that Suzuki trying to make Shenmue viable in China has left him at the mercy of the Chinese censors and I'm not even sure if it's going to cover any real locations again. I've been thinking about it and I don't think that S3 contains any references to real locations at all; at the end of S1, Ryo is going to Hong Kong, he travels to Wan Chai, then Kowloon, then Guilin. In S3? Bailu Village, then Niaowu, then the "Cliff Temple" with no mention at all to what province or region they can be found...

I could be wrong (I hope so) but it seems likely that Ryo will be travelling to places that are "inspired" by Chinese locations (in the same way that Niaowu was inspired by Fenghuang and even Baisha would have been an amalgamation), rather than the locations themselves.

It could be based on that temple loosely but it's definitely not actually it. Xuankong is way too far north, especially if you expect them to travel to Xian, Luoyang, Cangzhou before that. Given that Chapter 7 is Luoyang, this is way north of that.

What I'm suggesting is that the Cliff Temple will incorporate whatever story is supposed to happen in Luoyang (and perhaps see Ryo cover both locations in one "chapter", assuming they can use the actual location). Since the Cliff Temple is something that Yuan speaks about as if Ryo should know it (again, he doesn't mention the province or region) it stands to reason that it is a "known" location. I'm not saying it will actually be Xuankong or in that exact location, but I think it will be the same deal as Niaowu (Fenghuang isn't in Guilin or Guangxi either).

I also don't think the order needs to be specifically geographic in nature. Why can't they get to the Cliff Temple and have to head south? The map image shows several of the subsequent cards in different directions from Chapter 7.

I don't believe Chapter 7 depicts the cliff temple, it should be the Shaolin Temple, given Ryo fighting the monk. A high-res version of the image is now available in another thread.

I mean, the Chapter 7 card shows Niao Sun, Lan Di, and a Cliff Temple so I think it's pretty safe to assume that, to the extent that those cards are still relevant, that's where we are in the story. But you're right, in all likelihood it was originally meant to be the Shaolin Temple (hopefully it may still be).

This was pointed out to me by another user but there is a southern wall that is near Fenghuang (what Niaowu is based off). However, Niaowu is firmly on the Li river (in game says so) so a bit south of this in reality, they could have warped up there potentially as it isn't a huge stretch. That being said I wouldn't put too much stock into the ending scene. I have a feeling S4 will start before this, maybe explain how they got to the wall. My bet is that Baisha would have likely filled the gap from getting from Guilin/Niaowu to the wall.

It's possible considering the Great Wall seems to have been a location for S3, it really just depends on where Suzuki decides to plop the Cliff Temple. Even if it's near Fenghuang, that's still pretty far from Luoyang. I hope the ending scene isn't canon but I just can't think of a reason to include it if not to suggest that Ryo and co. are well on their way. It would have been just as easy to have them on the boat, looking out to the horizon as we listen to their inner monologues.

Yeah it's a bit of a mess. Either the mirrors are keys or maps, but it seems contradictory at this point.

They can be both but then why the Bailu map? Surely if Ryo could find Bailu Village, which similarly required a two day trek through the mountains of Guilin, he could find the Cliff Temple? Plus, the mirrors aren't even that old, there's no reason for the map scroll to look like a treasure map; in 1910 cartography was much more advanced than that. Plus why is Niaowu even on that map and not the Great Wall or some other landmark?

I just want to see the main story beats unfold. I would love Luoyang/Shaolin, Cangzhou is a must and it would be cool to get to go to Beijing. Hopefully somewhere rural makes it in, you'll get Ren on a horse.

I hope that I'm wrong and we can see real locations in Shenmue again (I can't stress enough how strict the censorship is in China, especially when dealing with their criminal underworld and especially when dealing with their history). I'll forgive almost anything if I get Ren on a horse though.