Past, present and future

[hmjohnny]

I'm not sure we can assume that Niaowu (or its events) was supposed to be part of the original plan for Guilin; I'd be surprised if Guilin was originally ever more than what we got in S2 and Bailu Village.

I don't think Niaowu was or most of the events per se. The only thing that makes me think some of it was meant to be included in the Guilin chapter is Master Bei. He appears in the original concept art and cormorant fisherman are pretty much unique to Guilin.

It is possible some of that stuff is from the Xian chapter but the card shows Yanlang and Niao Sun and another master so I'm not sure.

So what I've been considering is that the chapters likely matter in terms of the broad strokes of the story and perhaps some cool setting ideas, but no longer the actual locations. I think that Suzuki trying to make Shenmue viable in China has left him at the mercy of the Chinese censors and I'm not even sure if it's going to cover any real locations again. I've been thinking about it and I don't think that S3 contains any references to real locations at all; at the end of S1, Ryo is going to Hong Kong, he travels to Wan Chai, then Kowloon, then Guilin. In S3? Bailu Village, then Niaowu, then the "Cliff Temple" with no mention at all to what province or region they can be found...

I could be wrong (I hope so) but it seems likely that Ryo will be travelling to places that are "inspired" by Chinese locations (in the same way that Niaowu was inspired by Fenghuang and even Baisha would have been an amalgamation), rather than the locations themselves.

I also think downplaying real locations was to appease Chinese censors. Although I don't think it is a requirement of their censorship laws to not take place in real locations. S3 does mention Guilin and the Li river though and in the DLC Zhang mentions Hong Kong. We know Niaowu is on the Li river so it either is a proxy for Guilin city (supported by it having the elephant rock) or somewhere near it.

I heard that S3 didn't even make it past the censors (for other reasons I suppose) and they never released it China anyway so I hope this doesn't become a sticking point going forward.

mean, the Chapter 7 card shows Niao Sun, Lan Di, and a Cliff Temple so I think it's pretty safe to assume that, to the extent that those cards are still relevant, that's where we are in the story. But you're right, in all likelihood it was originally meant to be the Shaolin Temple (hopefully it may still be).

The image does show something looking more similar to Xuantong temple than Shaolin but it's hard to say off a small concept art. Could be that the cliff temple was meant to be incorporated into Chapter 7 along the Shaolin/Luoyang.

It's possible considering the Great Wall seems to have been a location for S3, it really just depends on where Suzuki decides to plop the Cliff Temple. Even if it's near Fenghuang, that's still pretty far from Luoyang. I hope the ending scene isn't canon but I just can't think of a reason to include it if not to suggest that Ryo and co. are well on their way. It would have been just as easy to have them on the boat, looking out to the horizon as we listen to their inner monologues.

It's one of the weirdest parts of the ending because we have no idea where they are. Most people think of the northern walls so I thought they were already in the north until I found out about the southern wall. S4 will have to explain I guess.

I do think the original ending was to be expanded as there were shots of Ryo fighting Mr. Muscles on the wall, but that may just have been promo.

Plus why is Niaowu even on that map and not the Great Wall or some other landmark?

I think it's just one stopping point on the map that has more landmarks. I wouldn't be surprised if in S4 he pulls out the scroll and there are more landmarks to follow. They reference the elephant rock so it's meant to be cryptic I guess.

I hope that I'm wrong and we can see real locations in Shenmue again (I can't stress enough how strict the censorship is in China, especially when dealing with their criminal underworld and especially when dealing with their history). I'll forgive almost anything if I get Ren on a horse though.

Me too. I really liked that Shenmue took place in the real world.

 

[iknifaugood]

I don't think Niaowu was or most of the events per se. The only thing that makes me think some of it was meant to be included in the Guilin chapter is Master Bei. He appears in the original concept art and cormorant fisherman are pretty much unique to Guilin.

It is possible some of that stuff is from the Xian chapter but the card shows Yanlang and Niao Sun and another master so I'm not sure.

I think it's safe to assume that, even if the Cliff Temple is still in Guilin, that would not still constitute 1 chapter (it would be absurd for the story to be hung up on 1 chapter for 3 games). This is why I think the locations matter less than the story beats and, as you point out, the chapter 6 card shows Niao Sun and a big muscle-y guy so it's pretty safe to assume that S3 covers chapter 6 in some way (likely when Niao Sun gets the Phoenix Mirror and possibly her coup).

Although I don't think it is a requirement of their censorship laws to not take place in real locations.

Likely as it pertains to the criminal underworld. Suggesting that a real life location is some kind of hub for a criminal syndicate, even a fictional one, is likely against the censorship laws, as is (I suspect) stating that there is some kind of treasure in one of their temples. And desecrating their temples is definitely against censorship laws, so depending on what happens at the Cliff Temple (ie: Shenhua's explosion) may have influenced it as well.

I heard that S3 didn't even make it past the censors (for other reasons I suppose) and they never released it China anyway so I hope this doesn't become a sticking point going forward.

WHAT?!! Then why did we have to put up with that token nonsense for gambling?!!

The image does show something looking more similar to Xuantong temple than Shaolin but it's hard to say off a small concept art. Could be that the cliff temple was meant to be incorporated into Chapter 7 along the Shaolin/Luoyang.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the Cliff Temple, or something like it, was always a location that Ryo and co. would have to travel to. I'm willing to chalk up any inconsistencies with what Elder Yeh says to poor translation for the sake of getting them to the Cliff Temple.

I think it's just one stopping point on the map that has more landmarks. I wouldn't be surprised if in S4 he pulls out the scroll and there are more landmarks to follow. They reference the elephant rock so it's meant to be cryptic I guess.

I certainly hope not, that strikes me as incredibly cheap. Elder Yeh asks Shenhua to describe the scroll to her so that she can interpret it, why would she leave stuff out? She skips straight from the next location to the ending? lol

 

[RyoHazuki84]

wasn't there footage of the "train chapter" in the project berkley disk?

 

[CrazyBob589]

Real-world Baisha are actually dotted all over China.

Baisha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are even a few in Fujian, apparently, but there are also some in Chongqing province, just south of Shaanxi province. I don't know if you were looking at that specific Baisha in Liuzhou for some other reason, though.

The map shows the Xian area coming next. That's really all I meant. The story novelizations have the chapter for Baisha after the chapter for Guilin, so if those chapters mirror the map trajectory, Baisha should be located somewhere between Guilin and Xian, theoretically.

Theoretically we could also just be jumping straight to the Luoyong area for the next game. Who knows. That's really something we'll just have to wait to find out.

According to the concept Baisha is a place near the Li River.
⑤漓江 (Li River)
⑥白沙 (Baisha)
By the way, the four places unmarked with numbers on the map from south to north are Suzhou (蘇州), Luoyang (洛陽), Cangzhou (滄州) and Beijing (北京).

 

[Rydeen]

According to the concept Baisha is a place near the Li River.
⑤漓江 (Li River)
⑥白沙 (Baisha)
By the way, the four places unmarked with numbers on the map from south to north are Suzhou (蘇州), Luoyang (洛陽), Cangzhou (滄州) and Beijing (北京).
View attachment 8987

Ah, cool. I don't know if I had seen this before (would be nice if there was a better quality video somewhere). It seems like Xi'an had probably been cut as well.

 

[hmjohnny]

I've seen this image before but looking at it again I guess that means the Li river chapter includes Bailu and (probably) Niaowu and Guilin surrounding area. I always thought it was meant to be the Guilin section included in Shenmue 2 since it was split out from Bailu making it its own "chapter" separate from Bailu

 

[Rydeen]

I've seen this image before but looking at it again I guess that means the Li river chapter includes Bailu and (probably) Niaowu and Guilin surrounding area. I always thought it was meant to be the Guilin section included in Shenmue 2 since it was split out from Bailu making it its own "chapter" separate from Bailu

Yeah, Bailu and Niaowu would be part of 5 (although I feel like parts of the story for Xi'an might have been used in Niaowu instead, now). On the map it has 3 and 4 as Hong Kong and Kowloon. The boat chapter is marked as 2, and 1 is obviously Yokosuka.


EDIT: So, actually kind of interestingly, Suzuki doesn't really call the illustrations 'chapter illustrations,' in that video. Just, 'image sketches for the various regions.'

There's also a pretty good closeup of the people in the train area illustration


From the smaller images, I always thought it seemed like Zhang was among them, but I guess not.

 

[hmjohnny]

Yeah, Bailu and Niaowu would be part of 5 (although I feel like parts of the story for Xi'an might have been used in Niaowu instead, now). On the map it has 3 and 4 as Hong Kong and Kowloon. The boat chapter is marked as 2, and 1 is obviously Yokosuka.

I think so too. As we discussed in other threads it seems that the chapter structure has changed a lot over the years and Baisha replaced Xian as the chapter that follows Guilin. Niaowu is likely a combination of Guilin, Xian, Baisha, and Suzhou to varying degrees with some of the elements from those chapters maybe getting thrown into S4.

EDIT: So, actually kind of interestingly, Suzuki doesn't really call the illustrations 'chapter illustrations,' in that video. Just, 'image sketches for the various regions.'

That's interesting but Suzuki does refer to 11 chapters as the original outline in various interviews.

My thought is Shenmue was supposed to have 11 chapters but those chapters got split into the novelization as the games were developed and scenarios were expanded upon.

 

[Rydeen]

That's interesting but Suzuki does refer to 11 chapters as the original outline in various interviews.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that there aren't 11 chapters. I was just thinking that the illustrations may have been convenient to place into the slideshow presentation, and tied to 11 areas in the chapters, but not necessarily wholly representative of the entire chapters.

 

[orient]

We don't have enough information to know one way or the other. Elder Yeh makes it pretty clear that the treasure map is pointing to the treasure (she says the treasure is hidden in the mountains) and that treasure is the treasure of the last Emperor and Empress of the Qing dynasty, and the Dragon and Phoenix mirrors are the "key" to the treasure, which seemingly contradicts what Zhu says (he says they're a key but also says the light patterns are a map). I agree that it makes much more sense if the Cliff Temple acts as a kind of map room but then, that's a pretty weird place to hide the mirrors, especially if it's the Xuankong Temple.

Zhu says that, together, the mirrors form a key to access hidden treasures. This is supported by Elder Yeh.

Zhu says a single mirror is not enough to find the location of the treasures using the light map. Then, importantly, Ren asks "there's no way of finding out with only the Phoenix Mirror?"

Zhu replies, "There is a clue. You must go to Guilin." Then he elaborates: Bailu Village, Phantom River Stone, descendants of the one who made the mirror live there, etc.

It seems fairly clear in hindsight that Zhu is implying there's another way to find the location of the treasures. The "clue" referred to is the scroll. Even if he doesn't know about the scroll specifically (though It's a possibility), he knows Yuan, or someone else in Bailu, holds that knowledge. And a clue is the perfect word for it, because the scroll is clearly intended to be ambiguous. It strings together landmarks with no specifics.

Guilin leads us to Shenhua, who leads us to the cave and the Sword of Seven Stars, which is required to access the scroll in Bailu. The CYM don't know what they're looking for so they just go after all the stonemasons directly, hoping one of them will know something.

Much like how the mirrors were falsely assumed as "ancient" due to Shenhua's destiny being determined "since ancient times" (at least I think that's why) -- despite Zhu specifically mentioning the Qing Dynasty in Shenmue II -- this very much seems like another "contradiction" that emerged more from fan expectations than anything else.

None of this, however, explains the ending to Shenmue III -- if the Cliff Temple is where the mirrors were originally hidden and where the treasure is...if the CYM already know the treasures' location and wanted Yuan for something else...or if the treasure is hidden somewhere else in the mountains.

 

[iknifaugood]

It seems fairly clear in hindsight that Zhu is implying there's another way to find the location of the treasures. The "clue" referred to is the scroll. Even if he doesn't know about the scroll specifically (though It's a possibility), he knows Yuan, or someone else in Bailu, holds that knowledge. And a clue is the perfect word for it, because the scroll is clearly intended to be ambiguous. It strings together landmarks with no specifics.

It possible but Yuanda Zhu tells Ryo to go to Bailu Village specifically because the mirrors are made of Phantom River Stone, which is only from there. Basically without any other options, go to the source where the descendants still live and, as a bonus, Iwao and Sunming trained there. Seems a bit of a stretch to say it's clear he knows about the map.

Guilin leads us to Shenhua, who leads us to the cave and the Sword of Seven Stars, which is required to access the scroll in Bailu. The CYM don't know what they're looking for so they just go after all the stonemasons directly, hoping one of them will know something.

But Bailu Village only has the map scroll, which only points to the Cliff Temple, which the CYM already know about. It seems integral to the "destiny predetermined since ancient times" but we don't know how that factors in to the CYM or the treasure. It certainly could be that the CYM believe they are fulfilling the prophecy...

Much like how the mirrors were falsely assumed as "ancient" due to Shenhua's destiny being determined "since ancient times" (at least I think that's why) -- despite Zhu specifically mentioning the Qing Dynasty in Shenmue II -- this very much seems like another "contradiction" that emerged more from fan expectations than anything else.

Not a contradiction (pretty sure Shenhua mentions how emperors fought wars over ancient mirrors) but it's very weird that the mirrors were made to hide the treasures needed to revive the Qing dynasty 1 year before the fall of the Qing dynasty. I'm very curious how this circle will be squared in S4.

if the Cliff Temple is where the mirrors were originally hidden and where the treasure is

If this is the case, that's very weird.

if the CYM already know the treasures' location and wanted Yuan for something else

Perhaps information on the Phoenix Mirror? The light pattern? I wish S3 elaborated on what the CYM know a little more.

 

[orient]

It possible but Yuanda Zhu tells Ryo to go to Bailu Village specifically because the mirrors are made of Phantom River Stone, which is only from there. Basically without any other options, go to the source where the descendants still live and, as a bonus, Iwao and Sunming trained there. Seems a bit of a stretch to say it's clear he knows about the map.

Agreed. I think Zhu pointing them to Bailu in the first place is enough to confirm the light map isn't the only way to find the treasure. As you say, go to the source instead.

Not a contradiction (pretty sure Shenhua mentions how emperors fought wars over ancient mirrors) but it's very weird that the mirrors were made to hide the treasures needed to revive the Qing dynasty 1 year before the fall of the Qing dynasty. I'm very curious how this circle will be squared in S4.

Yeah, I just mean most people presumed it was these specific mirrors that were ancient, when it seems much more likely now that they were recreations or something based on older mirrors.

Perhaps information on the Phoenix Mirror? The light pattern?

That makes sense.

 

[Mr Sun]

It possible but Yuanda Zhu tells Ryo to go to Bailu Village specifically because the mirrors are made of Phantom River Stone, which is only from there. Basically without any other options, go to the source where the descendants still live and, as a bonus, Iwao and Sunming trained there. Seems a bit of a stretch to say it's clear he knows about the map.


But Bailu Village only has the map scroll, which only points to the Cliff Temple, which the CYM already know about. It seems integral to the "destiny predetermined since ancient times" but we don't know how that factors in to the CYM or the treasure. It certainly could be that the CYM believe they are fulfilling the prophecy...


Not a contradiction (pretty sure Shenhua mentions how emperors fought wars over ancient mirrors) but it's very weird that the mirrors were made to hide the treasures needed to revive the Qing dynasty 1 year before the fall of the Qing dynasty. I'm very curious how this circle will be squared in S4.


If this is the case, that's very weird.


Perhaps information on the Phoenix Mirror? The light pattern? I wish S3 elaborated on what the CYM know a little more.

On the issue of why the mirrors were made when they were, my theory is that given how the mystical elements of shenmue trade a fair bit in destiny and resurrection, whilst tying that to real history, the Qing dynasty was simply "destined" to fall when it did. So the emperor is watching his empire crumble around him, (maybe he has a Shenmue Palantir too), has tried everything he can to stave off collapse, but to no avail. He has the mirrors commissioned at least knowing that whatever mystical powers of resurrection the "treasure" holds, his dynasty can be revived in the future. Perhaps it's a "once every 200/1000 years" type deal as to when the power of the treasure can be accessed, so the emperor couldn't access it in his present day.

Also I will say one thing of the map scroll; it does appear to confirm the treasure is also *actual* gold dubloon treasure, whatever else it may be. Would have been hilarious if Ren was being punked this whole time though.

 

[iknifaugood]

On the issue of why the mirrors were made when they were, my theory is that given how the mystical elements of shenmue trade a fair bit in destiny and resurrection, whilst tying that to real history, the Qing dynasty was simply "destined" to fall when it did. So the emperor is watching his empire crumble around him, (maybe he has a Shenmue Palantir too), has tried everything he can to stave off collapse, but to an avail. He he has the mirrors commissioned at least knowing that whatever mystical powers of resurrection the "treasure" holds, his dynasty can be revived in the future. Perhaps it's a "once every 200/1000 years" type deal as to when the power of the treasure can be accessed, so the emperor can't access it in his present day. Which would also make sense as to why it's been closely guarded throughout the years.

I’ve said elsewhere why the issues with the Qing dynasty present a real historical dilemma but suffice it to say that the fall of the Qing dynasty was a complex historical event and the heirs of the last emperor are alive to this day. I’m waiting for more info because we clearly don’t have enough to understand the bigger picture. But I’m assuming Suzuki chose the Qing dynasty for a reason.

Also I will say one thing of the map scroll; it does appear to confirm the treasure is also *actual* gold dubloon treasure, whatever else it may be.

It has to be more than money for the plot to make any kind of sense.

 

[Mr Sun]

I’ve said elsewhere why the issues with the Qing dynasty present a real historical dilemma but suffice it to say that the fall of the Qing dynasty was a complex historical event and the heirs of the last emperor are alive to this day. I’m waiting for more info because we clearly don’t have enough to understand the bigger picture. But I’m assuming Suzuki chose the Qing dynasty for a reason.


It has to be more than money for the plot to make any kind of sense.

I know, I meant that as far as I can remember, when Zhu talks of "treasure" in S2 it was only used in the context of "reviving the Qing dynasty", implying that the treasure is a mystical power. However Ren assumes its money, and S3 eventually confirms it is *also* money. It was just that up until that point "money" wasn't confirmed (unless I'm mistaken) so it would have been kinda funny if Ren never got his money (maybe he still won't).

 

[WuyingRen]

On the issue of why the mirrors were made when they were, my theory is that given how the mystical elements of shenmue trade a fair bit in destiny and resurrection, whilst tying that to real history, the Qing dynasty was simply "destined" to fall when it did. So the emperor is watching his empire crumble around him, (maybe he has a Shenmue Palantir too), has tried everything he can to stave off collapse, but to no avail. He has the mirrors commissioned at least knowing that whatever mystical powers of resurrection the "treasure" holds, his dynasty can be revived in the future. Perhaps it's a "once every 200/1000 years" type deal as to when the power of the treasure can be accessed, so the emperor couldn't access it in his present day.

Also I will say one thing of the map scroll; it does appear to confirm the treasure is also *actual* gold dubloon treasure, whatever else it may be. Would have been hilarious if Ren was being punked this whole time though.

A while back I found myself wondering whether the timing of the events unfolding might have had something to do with an eclipse of some kind.

In ancient China, they believed that an eclipse occurs when a dragon devours the sun. If the prophecy is referring to the sun (the Phoenix) and the moon (the dragon), it might be that the mirrors will only function during an eclipse.

I even did a bit of digging to see if any historical eclipses had occurred in China around significant points in the story, but aside from an annular eclipse in 1911 (the year before the Qing dynasty officially came to an end) there was nothing of significance. There was also an annular eclipse in September 1987, but given where we are in the story, I don’t see things being wrapped up in a few months in game time. As the next eclipse didn’t occur until 1997 (conversely, way too far ahead of where the story is now), I kind of ruled the theory out.

I suppose it’s possible though the mirrors are to be used elsewhere?

 

[orient]

It has to be more than money for the plot to make any kind of sense.

There is also a floating orb above the physical treasure.

The picture is metaphorical, as Elder Yeh says the Dragon and Phoenix represent the Emperor and Empress, so to assume literal treasure based on the image in the scroll seems shaky (and I fully expect Ren to get owned in this regard, although I'm sure it'll all be worth it for him eventually).

 

[Mr Sun]

There is also a floating orb above the physical treasure.

The picture is metaphorical, as Elder Yeh says the Dragon and Phoenix represent the Emperor and Empress, so to assume literal treasure based on the image in the scroll seems shaky (and I fully expect Ren to get owned in this regard, although I'm sure it'll all be worth it for him eventually).

Although yes, could be just metaphorical. I'm sort of looking forward to Ren not getting his money now.

 

[iknifaugood]

A while back I found myself wondering whether the timing of the events unfolding might have had something to do with an eclipse of some kind.

In ancient China, they believed that an eclipse occurs when a dragon devours the sun. If the prophecy is referring to the sun (the Phoenix) and the moon (the dragon), it might be that the mirrors will only function during an eclipse.

I even did a bit of digging to see if any historical eclipses had occurred in China around significant points in the story, but aside from an annular eclipse in 1911 (the year before the Qing dynasty officially came to an end) there was nothing of significance. There was also an annular eclipse in September 1987, but given where we are in the story, I don’t see things being wrapped up in a few months in game time. As the next eclipse didn’t occur until 1997 (conversely, way too far ahead of where the story is now), I kind of ruled the theory out.

I suppose it’s possible though the mirrors are to be used elsewhere?

This is exactly what I mean when I say that I'm assuming Suzuki has chosen the breadcrumbs he has for a reason. The Qing dynasty is very specific and makes his job much harder.

There is also a floating orb above the physical treasure.

The picture is metaphorical, as Elder Yeh says the Dragon and Phoenix represent the Emperor and Empress, so to assume literal treasure based on the image in the scroll seems shaky (and I fully expect Ren to get owned in this regard, although I'm sure it'll all be worth it for him eventually).

I assure you I would not be here if I thought the treasure was literally gold. I just want Ren to be happy...