PC Gamer Interview with D3T about bringing Shenmue 1 & 2 to PC/back to life.

[Sheephead]

Great article that goes into a bit of the behind the scenes on what it took/how many people it took etc, to get these working on PC (& modern consoles). Great read and really makes you think how much work went into these!

https://www.pcgamer.com/how-sega-brought-shenmue-back-to-life-on-pc/

Interesting bit about the audio:

The audio on the Dreamcast is mainly driven by a completely different chip to the main CPU. This chip is loaded with different programs defined by the original developer, specifying things such as loop points, reverb, volumes, envelopes, etc. We didn’t have the source data for this, which meant a lot of reverse engineering to get it sounding okay.

Edit from My post: (spud1897)
PCGamer have released an interview with D3T detailing the challenges around developing Shenmue for modern platforms. https://www.pcgamer.com/how-sega-brought-shenmue-back-to-life-on-pc/

This is essential reading for all of us trying to understand everything with these games and just how much has gone on behind the scenes to get this to becoming a reality.

This particularly stood out:
Was bringing a 20-year-old game to modern PCs difficult?

"Incredibly difficult! At D3T we have worked on some very challenging projects, but this was by far the toughest. For example, there was no source code for the Dreamcast libraries, but luckily the Shenmue 2 Xbox version had source for the ported Xbox libraries.

It was definitely not a case of dropping the Xbox libraries in and building Shenmue, but it gave us a good starting point. Even with that there were still many files missing which we had to reverse engineer from assembly code.

The Dreamcast and Xbox had 32-bit processors, but PS4 and Xbox One are 64-bit. This has a big implication with how memory and data are handled. It was a massive engineering effort to convert the code and resulted in many obvious and many subtle bugs, some of which were still being found close to release."

Were there any quirks of the Dreamcast hardware that made getting the first game working on PC especially difficult?

The Dreamcast hardware had some features which would prove difficult to emulate, particularly the audio and graphics systems.

The audio on the Dreamcast is mainly driven by a completely different chip to the main CPU. This chip is loaded with different programs defined by the original developer, specifying things such as loop points, reverb, volumes, envelopes, etc. We didn’t have the source data for this, which meant a lot of reverse engineering to get it sounding okay.

Regarding the graphics, the Dreamcast GPU had some powerful and unique features not found on modern cards. The two features which caused us the most headaches were the modifier volumes used for shadows and light volumes, and the ability to sort transparent geometry on a per pixel level. The lack of modifier volumes on our target platforms led us to use a hybrid stencil shadow approach similar to the Xbox version of Shenmue 2. This is different to the original and artefacts can occasionally be seen because of this.

 

[newyokohama]

The moon in Shenmue 2 is not a texture. It’s an actual 3D object in the distance correctly lit by the sun direction. This produces accurate phases. We were surprised by this level of detail! The Lucky Hit games adjust the physical behaviour of the ball based on the weather and temperature, calculated by the time of day.

Wow - we really were playing the future back then.

 

[spud1897]

PCGamer have released an interview with D3T detailing the challenges around developing Shenmue for modern platforms. https://www.pcgamer.com/how-sega-brought-shenmue-back-to-life-on-pc/

This is essential reading for all of us trying to understand everything with these games and just how much has gone on behind the scenes to get this to becoming a reality.

This particularly stood out:
Was bringing a 20-year-old game to modern PCs difficult?

"Incredibly difficult! At D3T we have worked on some very challenging projects, but this was by far the toughest. For example, there was no source code for the Dreamcast libraries, but luckily the Shenmue 2 Xbox version had source for the ported Xbox libraries.

It was definitely not a case of dropping the Xbox libraries in and building Shenmue, but it gave us a good starting point. Even with that there were still many files missing which we had to reverse engineer from assembly code.

The Dreamcast and Xbox had 32-bit processors, but PS4 and Xbox One are 64-bit. This has a big implication with how memory and data are handled. It was a massive engineering effort to convert the code and resulted in many obvious and many subtle bugs, some of which were still being found close to release."

Were there any quirks of the Dreamcast hardware that made getting the first game working on PC especially difficult?

The Dreamcast hardware had some features which would prove difficult to emulate, particularly the audio and graphics systems.

The audio on the Dreamcast is mainly driven by a completely different chip to the main CPU. This chip is loaded with different programs defined by the original developer, specifying things such as loop points, reverb, volumes, envelopes, etc. We didn’t have the source data for this, which meant a lot of reverse engineering to get it sounding okay.

Regarding the graphics, the Dreamcast GPU had some powerful and unique features not found on modern cards. The two features which caused us the most headaches were the modifier volumes used for shadows and light volumes, and the ability to sort transparent geometry on a per pixel level. The lack of modifier volumes on our target platforms led us to use a hybrid stencil shadow approach similar to the Xbox version of Shenmue 2. This is different to the original and artefacts can occasionally be seen because of this.

 

[shredingskin]

Pretty nice interview, got me offguard knowing that they have been working on the game since 2015. Also some very cool tidbits.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

They had to use Google Translate to read the developers’ notes and admit they don’t understand how to make the music work correctly. Lovely. Think I understand this all a bit better now. Sega Europe shouldn’t have handled this. I actually feel a bit sympathetic towards D3T now, but they really couldn’t find some coders who can read Japanese?

 

[Eishen]

Very important article, D3T did an amazing work.

 

[Joqu]

They had to use Google Translate to read the developers’ notes and admit they don’t understand how to make the music work correctly. Lovely. Think I understand this all a bit better now. Sega Europe shouldn’t have handled this. I actually feel a bit sympathetic towards D3T now, but they really couldn’t find some coders who can read Japanese?

Well, not if Sega didn't give them the necessary resources.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Exactly. That’s really sad. Classic Sega!

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I’m actually very impressed with them based on the interview. Now my rage has turned to my favorite nemesis...whose games I’ll never stop buying.

 

[RiGoRmOrTiS]

Yeah their backwards engineering of the midi driver for music etc is a cut above in Shenmue 1.. amazing work.. but then it all goes to shit in Shenmue 2..

 

[AnimeGamer183]

Well I suppose the language barrier could add some significant time to this process, so 2 and a half years is the answer. And we know why so many aspects are so poor, I find it jarring that the whole interview they dance around the fact that it has been controversial, and fans have been upset, the first paragraph says "quality port" which is a bold statement. The dev mentions "all the positive feedback" which is just hilarious considering reality.

So Google Translate and poorly reverse engineered audio? Does that mean the music and audio issues are here to stay? This is what they came up with and thought was ok to release to the public? I may just stick to my Dreamcast and Xbox versions of Shenmue, this is too much. d3t clearly were not the people for this job, why couldnt we get a japanese dev for this port? At least someone whos first language was japanese since the code sounded very complicated. Who chose d3t and why?

All the patches in the world arent going to erase the past couple weeks and none of that explains why the release couldnt wait to get more polish which the dev even confirms it needed and also confirms they were aware of bugs and still went through with everything. This is a sad and perplexing story, and I have a feeling it pretty much comes down to It was either this or nothing, heart breaking.

 

[Zoyous]

I find it jarring that the whole interview they dance around the fact that it has been controversial, and fans have been upset, the first paragraph says "quality port" which is a bold statement. The dev mentions "all the positive feedback" which is just hilarious considering reality.

Yes, let's take a moment to consider reality.

All the patches in the world arent going to erase the past couple weeks

May I suggest the new hashtag #ShenmueHDScarredMeForLife ? It's sure to trend considering how many people share your opinion.

 

[RiGoRmOrTiS]

Yes, let's take a moment to consider reality.

View attachment 1177



May I suggest the new hashtag #ShenmueHDScarredMeForLife ? It's sure to trend considering how many people share your opinion.

haha, this made me chuckle. You're not wrong, some people are talking with such extreme rhetoric like they are going to end up with PTSD once the bugs are fixed and there is nothing left to complain about.

 

[oregano9]

I find it jarring that the whole interview they dance around the fact that it has been controversial, and fans have been upset, the first paragraph says "quality port" which is a bold statement. The dev mentions "all the positive feedback" which is just hilarious considering reality.

You do realise most of the reception outside Shenmue Dojo has been incredible positive, right? It's only here that you find people with so much passion for this series that they will go full berserk over the slight button prompt not working correctly or any song out of pace, meanwhile people playing Shenmue 1 & 2 for the first time don't notice or don't even care about this stuff and are loving it.

 

[Kodama]

May I suggest the new hashtag #ShenmueHDScarredMeForLife ? It's sure to trend considering how many people share your opinion.

some people are talking with such extreme rhetoric like they are going to end up with PTSD once the bugs are fixed and there is nothing left to complain about.

I think you guys are the ones taking his comment to the extreme here... purposely or perhaps accidentally taking him out of context. He's just saying that since release the game has been a bit of a mess and this sours people on the series. Newcomers who are brave enough to try these games for the first time only to be hit with crazy glitched out music and broken cutscenes aren't going to wait patiently for a patch before deciding "fuck shenmue" and walking away from the series altogether... that's what he means by "All the patches in the world arent going to erase the past couple weeks"... not that he's traumatized or whatever you guys are trying to say to belittle and dismiss his valid criticism...

 

[darksniper]

haha, this made me chuckle. You're not wrong, some people are talking with such extreme rhetoric like they are going to end up with PTSD once the bugs are fixed and there is nothing left to complain about.

The Wise Men's Qtr music in Shenmue 2 is enough to give any hardcore fan PTSD. I feel sympathetic towards D3T. I get the feeling they did the best they could given the circumstance. This is Sega being Sega once again. I almost wish that Yu Suzuki would take some time out of his busy schedule to assist with getting these ports up to speed. Given his programming skills, I'd like to think he'd be able to get this sorted out in no time. Kind of like how Iwata saved Super Smash Bros on 64 IIRC at the last minute.

 

[spud1897]

Some new players may disagree

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2016859861670167&id=163055893717249

 

[AnimeGamer183]

You do realise most of the reception outside Shenmue Dojo has been incredible positive, right? It's only here that you find people with so much passion for this series that they will go full berserk over the slight button prompt not working correctly or any song out of pace, meanwhile people playing Shenmue 1 & 2 for the first time don't notice or don't even care about this stuff and are loving it.

No its not just here, its on the steam forums as well, its on reddit, its in the twitter posts, its in the comments of other articles and outlets and is absolutely not just here. Hell even John from DF has posted on these forums sharing similar concerns and he is alot closer to the situation than any of us. I have been doing my research about this and trying to get to the bottom of it and it has left me with nothing but questions and to be totally honest a bit disturbed with how cryptic and out there many aspects of this has been.

@Zoyous Those Steam reviews are not the end all be all of the reviews and general consensus about this collection, the console reivews are not as pretty, and im not taking away anything from those that had positive experiences. New players need to have positive experiences, but I completely agree new players probably dont know what they even need to look for in terms of differences from the original versions and how big the contrast is in certain aspects of the games with this collection. Plus if certain things arent patched when they go back and play them again, they will probably start digging up more and more issues so lets hope they can patch things fast enough.

 

[spud1897]

No its not just here, its on the steam forums as well, its on reddit, its in the twitter posts, its in the comments of other articles and outlets and is absolutely not just here. Hell even John from DF has posted on these forums sharing similar concerns and he is alot closer to the situation than any of us. I have been doing my research about this and trying to get to the bottom of it and it has left me with nothing but questions and to be totally honest a bit disturbed with how cryptic and out there many aspects of this has been.

@Zoyous Those Steam reviews are not the end all be all of the reviews and general consensus about this collection, the console reivews are not as pretty, and im not taking away anything from those that had positive experiences. New players need to have positive experiences, but I completely agree new players probably dont know what they even need to look for in terms of differences from the original versions and how big the contrast is in certain aspects of the games with this collection. Plus if certain things arent patched when they go back and play them again, they will probably start digging up more and more issues so lets hope they can patch things fast enough.

To be fair I mostly discount the steam forums as they are rather petulant lol.

I've seen the negative comments too on various places but generally the feeling has been positive but it is very hard to jdge the impact on newcomers. 1st week sales were good and a 75 on metacritic isn't horrendous, yes it could have been better if the bugs had been fixed. And you're right first time players won't know what to look for.

The issues going forward about a potential lack of support at this stage seem unfounded, given the 3 PC patches and likely more coming before the console patch hits. After the JP release if there's still issues and support drops then I can imagine people would be rightly pissed. I don't think this will be the case. I feel for some of the issues D3T have had to work through and we don't know the full extent.

Hopefully this will play out positively in the long run.

 

[RiGoRmOrTiS]

The Wise Men's Qtr music in Shenmue 2 is enough to give any hardcore fan PTSD.

I will concede that particular point. Some of the music is driving me loopy.

Even the music outside the tomato convenience store in the Golden quarter sounds like an insane killer clown might jump out..