Random Shenmue III Thoughts

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Spaghetti said:
Hope this isn't anybody on here, but I saw someone on Twitter saying Shenmue should have more battles like Yakuza, and I couldn't think of anything worse. The thing that has bothered me most playing 0, Kiwami, and Kiwami 2 over less than a year has been how quickly the battle system wears out its welcome, because you're constantly getting into fights. Even outside the random battles, it seems every minor story beat resolves in a fight, as do the side quests.

Really made me appreciate Shenmue's "less is more" approach.
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No, I don't want that at all. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Shenmue kind of solved the whole ludo narrative dissonance problem by making every fight mean something to the story.

Look as much as I love Yakuza, even I think grinding random battles gets to be a bit too much at times. Yakuza is straight up action RPG with a lot of grinding. Shenmue is something else...far more about the narrative than it is throwing random grind fests at you.

So no, I don't want Shenmue III to become Yakuza. I am of the opinion (as I always have been) that they are two entirely different games with only a few similarities.

BUT it was fun to pipe dream in an Alternate Universe since we're NEVER gonna get that cross over in THIS universe ;) It's NEVER gonna happen :) But it was fun to think about and write up :)

And I stand by my little alternate universe scenario. Gimme Yakuza X Shenmue...I'll play the hell out of it in that alternate universe ;)
 
Here is something I just thought of. It has been confirmed that Shenmue 3 will have 4 difficulty levels to choose from. Something that was never available in the 1st 2 games. Does that mean if we choose the easiest option,the qtes will be easier? Because some of the qtes in part 2 were insanely difficult to get through. The fat guy in part 2 took me over 20 trys to beat,lol.
 
Tony Z said:
It has been confirmed that Shenmue 3 will have 4 difficulty levels to choose from. Something that was never available in the 1st 2 games. Does that mean if we choose the easiest option,the qtes will be easier?
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I believe so - Yu mentioned in his Reboot talk that the difficulty level would apply not just to battles, but also to "the story's progression in various places".
 
danielmann861 said:
No, I don't want that at all. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Shenmue kind of solved the whole ludo narrative dissonance problem by making every fight mean something to the story.

Look as much as I love Yakuza, even I think grinding random battles gets to be a bit too much at times. Yakuza is straight up action RPG with a lot of grinding. Shenmue is something else...far more about the narrative than it is throwing random grind fests at you.

So no, I don't want Shenmue III to become Yakuza. I am of the opinion (as I always have been) that they are two entirely different games with only a few similarities.

BUT it was fun to pipe dream in an Alternate Universe since we're NEVER gonna get that cross over in THIS universe ;) It's NEVER gonna happen :) But it was fun to think about and write up :)

And I stand by my little alternate universe scenario. Gimme Yakuza X Shenmue...I'll play the hell out of it in that alternate universe ;)
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Oh don't worry, nothing of what I wrote is referring to your crossover idea. Even if I'd prefer it never happen, haha.
 
Spaghetti said:
Oh don't worry, nothing of what I wrote is referring to your crossover idea. Even if I'd prefer it never happen, haha.
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I got to be honest and maybe I'm gonna sound like an asshole here. I did find it amusing how the old "Shenmue isn't Yakuza" tangent came up again after that write up.

No offence to anyone here, but I don't know how we go from a bit of fantasy to "Keep Shenmue Away from Yakuza!" (don't worry, that will NEVER happen) or "Shenmue ain't Yakuza!" (yeah, we know that already...who cares what others say? We here on this forum know Shenmue ain't Yakuza.)

I just found that kind of amusing in itself.

Sorry if that comes across as snarky but some of the reactions did genuinely make me laugh a little and think "how did we go from fantasy to this?"

Anyways, it's no big deal.
 
It's the timing/treatment RGG studio and Yakuza has gotten over AM2 & Shenmue that leaves a bad taste imo.

If Sega has done this properly, the transitioning of the two Ip woulda been a smooth ride and celebrated if:

1.) Sega had let Yu finish the visionary Shenmue franchise first.

2.) Yakuza matches or upgrades the Shenmue scope and ambition left on the table going forward instead of taking many steps backward.

3.) Sega should not have put Yu Suzuki to pasture but let him be producer and help be a guide to Nagoshi's creativity.
(eg. Like how Shiguru helped by mentoring the team that made BOTW a huge-hit)

4.) Deciding to walled off Yakuza from western audiences for so darn long.

5.) Last but not least, Yakuza needs better localization/marketing efforts akin to what Judgement is getting rite now from Sega.

One thing I do wonder about in retrospect is...Sega dropping the ball so hard some what sets up the future for the "E3 of Dreams" moment I'll remember fondly for the rest of my life.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if the lowest difficulty either removes QTEs entirely or trivialises them by reducing the number of prompts and increasing the timing window greatly. I think that'd be a smart move because some people really don't like QTEs, and others simply don't have the dexterity in their hands to pull them off.

Other difficulty tweaks I can see happening: weaker enemies (obviously), a softer economy (make more money) and friendlier NPCs (easier to build trust).
 
高野和泉 said:
It's the timing/treatment RGG studio and Yakuza has gotten over AM2 & Shenmue that leaves a bad taste imo.
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Yakuza sold to the masses. Shenmue didn't. Shenmue flopped. Sad but true. What can you do really?

No point getting all bitter about it. It is what it is. Just be thankful Sega were good enough to give him the licence for Shenmue III...they could have been real pricks and held onto that licence for the rest of time.
 
高野和泉 said:
It's the timing/treatment RGG studio and Yakuza has gotten over AM2 & Shenmue that leaves a bad taste imo.
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Yeah i feel this way too, it's so annoying how little SEGA cared about Shenmue all these years but they kept pumping out these Yakuza games year on year. Even if it made sense why SEGA would turn away from Shenmue all these years, it still felt shitty. With S3 coming i have become less bitter about Yakuza but i still, when i see the negative discourse around Shenmue and all the bashing due to Yakiza comparisons, it kind of makes me hate that series a bit, heh.
 
danielmann861 said:
Yakuza sold to the masses. Shenmue didn't. Shenmue flopped. Sad but true. What can you do really?
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That isn't really true. Shenmue and Yakuza sold equally at first -- both edged over a million copies (keep in mind Yakuza was in print for way longer, giving it a huge advantage).

It wasn't until the sequels that Yakuza started to pull ahead, as Yakuza 2 sold roughly double what Shenmue II sold on both Xbox and DC combined. But again, not exactly a fair comparison considering Shenmue II was released on a dead platform, and the Xbox version arrived late and without any real promotion.

If the Dreamcast didn't die unceremoniously, I think Shenmue would've went from strength-to-strength, much like the Yakuza series did. Sadly we'll never know what could've been.

It's worth keeping in mind Yakuza is still a niche series. It may be "big in Japan", but that doesn't account for much on a global scale. Put it this way, Horizon Zero Dawn sold more (or very close) copies in 2 years than the entirety of the Yakuza series has over the past 14 or so. Now that's selling to the masses.
 
Someone on these forums (the old ones) recommended Yakuza to me back on the ps2. I went out and bought both 1 and 2 and was impressed.

Yes it's not got the depth of Shenmue etc etc but good games in their own right.

The draw comparisons because of the setting more than anything. Mechanically and presentation wise they are very different games.
 
orient said:
That isn't really true. Shenmue and Yakuza sold equally at first -- both edged over a million copies (keep in mind Yakuza was in print for way longer, giving it a huge advantage).

It wasn't until the sequels that Yakuza started to pull ahead, as Yakuza 2 sold roughly double what Shenmue II sold on both Xbox and DC combined. But again, not exactly a fair comparison considering Shenmue II was released on a dead platform, and the Xbox version arrived late and without any real promotion.

If the Dreamcast didn't die unceremoniously, I think Shenmue would've went from strength-to-strength, much like the Yakuza series did. Sadly we'll never know what could've been.

It's worth keeping in mind Yakuza is still a niche series. It may be "big in Japan", but that doesn't account for much on a global scale. Put it this way, Horizon Zero Dawn sold more (or very close) copies in 2 years than the entirety of the Yakuza series has over the past 14 or so. Now that's selling to the masses.
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When I say "it sold to the masses" it means it did well enough to turn it into a lucrative annual franchise for Sega...at least in the Asian regions it did well enough back in the day.

The main difference is the budget of these games. Shenmue was like $44 Million? I'm not sure what the budget is on the Yakuza games but I can't imagine it's anywhere near as grand. Especially the PS2 iterations back in the day. Considering they poured $44 Million into Shenmue and it flopped is more than enough reason for Sega to not want to pursue it.

Yakuza has done well enough in Asian territories to keep it going year after year. It's obviously pretty lucrative for Sega and it is essentially their Call of Duty as it has been almost a yearly staple for them ever since 2005.

One has proven lucrative; the other not so much. If I were in charge of Sega, which one would I invest money in year after year? The one that is at least a guaranteed success or the one that flopped and is an uncertainty? Realistically speaking.

I just don't see why people need to get so touchy when mentioning Yakuza and Shenmue in the same breath. Both are great games to me. Both are very different from one another. But both are equally great to me.
 
danielmann861 said:
When I say "it sold to the masses" it means it did well enough to turn it into a lucrative annual franchise for Sega...at least in the Asian regions it did well enough back in the day.

The main difference is the budget of these games. Shenmue was like $44 Million? I'm not sure what the budget is on the Yakuza games but I can't imagine it's anywhere near as grand. Especially the PS2 iterations back in the day. Considering they poured $44 Million into Shenmue and it flopped is more than enough reason for Sega to not want to pursue it.

Yakuza has done well enough in Asian territories to keep it going year after year. It's obviously pretty lucrative for Sega and it is essentially their Call of Duty as it has been almost a yearly staple for them ever since 2005.

One has proven lucrative; the other not so much. If I were in charge of Sega, which one would I invest money in year after year? The one that is at least a guaranteed success or the one that flopped and is an uncertainty? Realistically speaking.
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Indeed, it is what it is.

Sega have been smart wth Yakuza in that they have been able to use assests time and time again throughout the years which keeps costs down and gives better profit margins. It's the same for Judgement, it is the same setting so they can reuse old stuff.

I imagine this is something Yu will do with a potential Shenmue 4. Certinaly use the same main character models as a basis for any next iteration.
 
danielmann861 said:
When I say "it sold to the masses" it means it did well enough to turn it into a lucrative annual franchise for Sega...at least in the Asian regions it did well enough back in the day.
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"Profitability" is not the same as "selling to the masses". I'm not defending the profitability angle. Shenmue 1 was never going to be profitable -- it was essentially an investment. They planned to make money over time, as production costs went down, but those plans were ruined by the death of SEGA's hardware business.

I completely agree that Yakuza was more profitable than Shenmue -- that's basically fact -- but I don't agree that Shenmue "flopped". A flop is something that unexpectedly performs well below expectations. There is no way that, by late '99, SEGA expected Shenmue to sell more than it eventually did. It sold gangbusters for a DC game (no.4 on the system) so to label it a "flop" is inaccurate in my opinion. Sorry if that sounds defensive or like an overly semantic stance to take, but after a decade plus of people labelling Shenmue a "flop" in the games press, it really grinds my gears.
 
orient said:
I completely agree that Yakuza was more profitable than Shenmue -- that's basically fact -- but I don't agree that Shenmue "flopped". A flop is something that unexpectedly performs well below expectations. There is no way that, by late '99, SEGA expected Shenmue to sell more than it eventually did. It sold gangbusters for a DC game (no.4 on the system) so to label it a "flop" is inaccurate in my opinion. Sorry if that sounds defensive or like an overly semantic stance to take, but after a decade plus of people labelling Shenmue a "flop" in the games press, it really grinds my gears.
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Yes, it sold well for the Dreamcast, but considering how much it cost to develop, it never recuperated its losses either. From memory, I remember it was something like "Every Dreamcast owner would have to own at least two copies of the game in order to make back the budget" or something like that. It was destined to commercially fail or under perform based on the budget and the Dreamcast install base.

I do think Sega saw it as a flop (or commercial failure at best.) Otherwise they wouldn't have put Suzuki out to pasture and they would have funded this game long ago. Otherwise they would have put out a HD collection long ago. From memory, I remember hearing they were less than impressed with the sales figures of Jet Set Radio HD and that's what stopped them from releasing Shenmue on the PS3 and 360. I don't know if there was any truth to that but I do remember that being a rumbling.

Sega obviously had no faith in it and I understand why considering the money they lost on it and the fact that they were bleeding money as was. This is not just a response to you but it's also a response to some other comments above and how Sega should have let his vision play out. It's all very well to say that but at the end of the day Sega is a business and they do have to make smart (or smarter) business decisions. And Shenmue obviously wasn't worth their time and money for a long time.

I would argue we only got the HD collection because of Shenmue III as is. Otherwise, if there were no Shenmue III, I think we might have still been waiting for that HD Collection.

But honestly, when it comes to Suzuki. I'm reminded of Gunpai Yokoi. The brainchild behind the most successful handheld of all time. Goes on to make the Virtual Boy. It's regarded as one of Nintendo's greatest missteps. After that, Gunpai was put out to pasture by Nintendo. Sad story.

I don't like saying it's a flop either but at the same time I'm looking at it through Sega's eyes and I would say that within Sega's eyes and the way they treated Suzuki afterwards (eerily similar to Gunpai Yokoi), then yes, I would think they probably consider it a flop to some degree. Or commercial failure at best.

But I have to ask a question. Why let it bother you? Not to be patronising but I'm genuinely curious? I stopped letting it bother me a long time ago.

I see this with a lot of fans, they get very touchy on certain subjects in regards to Shenmue.

I don't know why you bother letting them (journos) get to you? I used to see this over on the Shenmue Facebook groups when people would lambast Jeff Gerstmann for his many Shenmue rants and I would think to myself "why let it bother you? It's exactly the reaction he wants and is aiming to get so why react?"

I know Shenmue fans have been the butt of the joke for years on end to journos and such, but honestly, comes a time where you got to rise above it.

And besides, didn't we get the last laugh in the end considering Shenmue III is a reality? ;)
 
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If you think Shenmue is a flop or failure, you are entitled to your opinion, but please respect the fans...
 
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