Reading up on my Shenmue History - The Original Shenmue 3

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Aug 2, 2018
Hi All

So S1&2 lands at the end of the month and the S3 development is kicking up a gear now as well so I have been digging through a few things on the history of Shenmue.

The most interesting thing I found (which explains a lot) was that Chapter 1 was originally a short prologue type chapter in the Saturn and early dreamcast versions (hence why there are so many Shenmue 2 screenshots floating about in Shenmue 1 pre-release media and the Saturn video).

But I was wondering about that story a few years back that a lot of work was completed on Shenmue 3 and there was plans to revive it within Sega. Does anyone know where that article is and was any follow up work done on it to find out how much was truely completed.

Loving the new board!
 
Is the kikizo article Shenmue 3 ready for next gen. Where they say it has ensentually been close to finish and ready for some time, but in hibernation pending a deal for the entire series on Atleast one next gen console.

Added: Just google Kikizo Shenmue 3 ready for next gen
 
Is the kikizo article Shenmue 3 ready for next gen. Where they say it has ensentually been close to finish and ready for some time, but in hibernation pending a deal for the entire series on Atleast one next gen console.

Added: Just google Kikizo Shenmue 3 ready for next gen

That's a controversial article these days. Obviously it never happened and I think he went into hiding never to be seen again .
 
Cheers for that - I tried googling bits and pieces but all I got was info on the new 100% real Shenmue 3.

I do wonder if there was an actual playable game of Shenmue 3 or they had just a large collection of characters and locations completed along with a script. I'd love to see a Dreamcast/X-Box Shenmue 3 video but I doubt we will see it.
 
It would be a nice little nod to the Dreamcast era.

We know that areas of Baliu and other villages were cut from Shenmue 2 so I wonder if they have some running footage kicking about of those areas. That would be fantastic to see, especially given the length of time between 2 and 3. Would the areas have changed greatly for example?
 
I remember the original vision for Shenmue 3 included a game that 'expanded inward, not outward' before everything went full open-world like 1&2. I'll be interested if this restricted, more linear (?) type experience is reserved for Shenmue 4.
 
It would be a nice little nod to the Dreamcast era.

We know that areas of Baliu and other villages were cut from Shenmue 2 so I wonder if they have some running footage kicking about of those areas. That would be fantastic to see, especially given the length of time between 2 and 3. Would the areas have changed greatly for example?

This is what I have always wondered. Many years ago on this website there were many photos of Bailu village and I also believe a video of Ryo walking around areas of Guilin (or maybe Bailu?) that did not make the game but were still on the disc. How much of a "Shenmue III" built on the DC or more likely the Xbox, ever existed? I believe that around Shenmue II's release, there were articles from places like IGN that confirmed Shenmue III was in development. It would be fascinating to know there is even a 20-30% build of Shenmue III on the Xbox somewhere in a vault. While I'm thrilled that Shenmue III is a reality, I was really hoping that Yu Suzuki would have done that post-mortem on Shenmue II as it would possibly include a little bit about Shenmue III and Shenmue Online (another topic that fascinates me).
 
I'm almost certain that Shenmue II wasn't meant to end where it did.

The end of the Kowloon chapter is a epic fast paced action climax, then disc 4 is a very long interactive video about trees, wildlife and the mirror. It feels simply like just the very start of chapter 5.

I'm pretty sure they simply stretched it to include Shen-hua and the Shenmue tree into the game knowing that the Dreamcast was on the way out but everything else was cut due to a lack of time. Imagine a world where the end of the game is Lan-di on that helicopter etc. then the following title was going to meet Shen-hua etc.

Thus there was much more work done on the game past the end we got to see but I don't know how much was done (if anything) once they wrapped up Shenmue 2.
 
From what we have heard so far, the general theme of Shenmue III seems to be more introspective and more about the relationship between Ryo and Shenhua, than balls out action like Kowloon, so what you are saying makes sense as that matches the mood and vibe of Guilin in Shenmue II. Also, I agree that the length of Guilin compared to Hong Kong and Kowloon makes it seem like it was tacked on or seriously amended to fit time and space constraints. The ending to Shenmue II is a cliffhanger, but it's so big and grand that it's nothing like the ending of Shenmue I which is definitely a segue right into Hong Kong, it seems like the production team could be proud of that being "the ending" if Shenmue III was never made. It certainly doesn't seem like the ending to a game expecting a sequel in 1-2 years. I also agree that Shenhua has such a prominent role because with Shenmue III up in the air, never meeting Shenhua after she's so heavily referenced in Ryo's dreams and also promotional material for both games would have been a mistake.

There are screens of unused areas of Guilin/Bailu/Miao Village that make me think that at one point, there was at least the next few minutes or next act after the cave developed:

http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=42167

Or, perhaps these things took place before you entered the cave, but there was obviously an intent for there to be more to the Guilin chapter than we got in Shenmue II.

Either way, these are the screens I am often wondering about. Obviously, this was scrapped from Shenmue II, as it is on the disc. However, did this stuff get carried over into what was at one point Shenmue III, on Xbox? Has there ever been even a 10-15 minute build of Shenmue III? Models/Renders/Music? It has always fascinated me, because I do believe there was a very short time where Shenmue III was confirmed to be in development and it would be fascinating to know that there's something out there, somewhere. Although knowing how little SEGA has cared for the Shenmue franchise, I have a feeling that whatever was left after Shenmue II was probably thrown away forever long ago.

The reason this fascinates me is that my other favorite game besides Shenmue was Earthbound for the SNES. I bought an n64 and pre-ordered Earthbound 64 in full at a Software, Etc. store all the way back in 1999. Of course, this game was cancelled, however, there was a playable demo at Space World '99 and apparently, a build that's 65-70% complete locked away in a vault at Nintendo's HQ in Japan. To play even 20 minutes of this game as it was meant to be on the n64 is like the holy grail of gaming to me. Even more would be to even boot up even the title screen for "Shenmue III" on Xbox. Mother 3 came out on the GBA and it's an incredible game. But, kind of like Shenmue III now, as incredible as it is to even be a real thing, the idea of putting a disc into my Dreamcast or Xbox and playing Shenmue III as it was meant to be made by AM2 and SEGA is one of my biggest wishes as a gamer. Maybe the biggest.
 
I'm almost certain that Shenmue II wasn't meant to end where it did.

The end of the Kowloon chapter is a epic fast paced action climax, then disc 4 is a very long interactive video about trees, wildlife and the mirror. It feels simply like just the very start of chapter 5.

I'm pretty sure they simply stretched it to include Shen-hua and the Shenmue tree into the game knowing that the Dreamcast was on the way out but everything else was cut due to a lack of time. Imagine a world where the end of the game is Lan-di on that helicopter etc. then the following title was going to meet Shen-hua etc.

Thus there was much more work done on the game past the end we got to see but I don't know how much was done (if anything) once they wrapped up Shenmue 2.

Yu Suzuki said pretty much this in an interview at some point. I can't find the interview now but he basically said that because they knew they weren't likely gonna make the third game for a while, he wanted to give players the chance to see Guilin and also slowly be introduced to fantastical elements (e.g. floating sword).

EDIT: I found the interview(s):

When we made Shenmue 2, we knew it was the last one... We decided to go out with a bang - that's why there are those fantastical elements in there! Also, in China and in Japan, there's a strong belief, like in England and with Stonehenge and the druids, we get energy from the spirits and the trees and nature. It's called ki, and it translates as feeling and emotion. It's not the same as fantastical fairies and demons - it's more to do with a natural, basic power. We're considering bringing that element into Shenmue 3.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...more-money-yu-suzuki-on-the-return-of-shenmue

Q: By the way, how many times larger is Shenmue II compared to Shenmue I?

Suzuki: I don’t know exactly, but I'd say easily 3 or 4 times the size of Shenmue I. But a lot of scenes got left out, because right as we neared the end of development I added a whole lot of extra content. Even using the best compression techniques of the time, there was too much for it all to fit. Even so, at the end we increased the content by about an extra 30% of the total game, for the area of Guilin where Shenhua appears.

Matsukaze: I heard a lot about that near the end of the development. People were saying that too much had been made and it wouldn’t all fit in.

http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48967
 
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I certaintly wish Giuilin was longer, but much like all of Shenmue and Shenmue 2, so long as you take your time it can actually be somewhat decent length of a disc. Lots of good dialogue and good cutscenes with even one or two extras. Slow disc 4 Shenmue II can be just as long as running and rushing through any of the other 6 discs of the Dreamcast saga.
 
Yu Suzuki said pretty much this in an interview at some point. I can't find the interview now but he basically said that because they knew they weren't likely gonna make the third game for a while, he wanted to give players the chance to see Guilin and also slowly be introduced to fantastical elements (e.g. floating sword).

EDIT: I found the interview(s):



https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...more-money-yu-suzuki-on-the-return-of-shenmue



http://www.shenmuedojo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48967
My takeaway from this is that Shenmue 3 was never truly worked on beyond what might have been created for the Saturn.

The development seems to have gone like this:
  • Shenmue is developed for the Saturn. This is a very embryonic form of what we got, and was likely a very different, very linear sort of game. I could be wrong, because I've not read much about this, but I feel it unlikely that it would have had the world clock, individual NPCs with their own schedules, dynamically changing weather/time, any of that stuff. There's no indication of any of it existing in the short video for it, anyway.
  • Development then moves onto the Dreamcast, probably for a number of reasons.
  • The games we know of as Shenmue I and II are developed as a single release. The engine is likely built from the ground-up from this point, to cater to the things I mentioned above.
  • Halfway through production, it's understood that the project is too large and releasing it as a single volume makes little financial sense. Development refocuses on polishing and extending the Yokosuka chapter.
  • Shenmue is released. Sales are underwhelming. The Dreamcast is failing and it's understood that the series will not complete on it.
  • Development switches back to what we know of as Shenmue II, which would again be polished and extended. While this work is occurring, the entire future of Sega is in question. With that in mind, Yu Suzuki adds the short Guilin section we see in Shenmue II.
  • Shenmue II has a torturous release, split across regions and consoles. The sales do not excite the beancounters.
  • However, since Sega has already poured so much into this project, and since so much additional work has already been carried out (composed music, scenario planning, script-writing, environment and character conceptualisations etc.), they investigate further developing the series on the X-Box.
This last bit is key. I believe that money men in Sega signed off on spending such an absurd amount only on the promise of an episodic, serialised game that would re-use the same (expensive) engine and assets to hit a 1-2 year release cadence.
I think they did start very early planning on Shenmue III, if only to recoup their damn expenses, but quickly realised two things:
1. They would be reliant on people buying Shenmue III even if they hadn't played I and II (because of how those games came out). Someone - I bet you - someone would have suggested that they would see fewer and fewer sales for each episode of the series.
2. They realised that they would have to tweak the engine much more than they had between 1 and 2. So Sega would have had to sink another large chunk of change into a project that was already losing them money, at a time when the whole company was under existential threat.
Looking at those two things, they would have cancelled the project before it progressed past planning.

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions here.
I want to expand on point 2, since it's shaky. I think the engine and assets of Shenmue were optimised for urban, gritty environments. The lighting was designed to simulate indirect light and indoor light primarily (Shenmue's cutscenes are defined, to me, by the constant framing of people's faces in half shade). I think you can see the effect of this on the Guilin chapter which, I feel, doesn't quite live up to its concept. The greenery isn't lush. The natural world doesn't look particularly natural. There isn't the hard transition between the shadows of trees/branches and the harsh direct sunlight that defines a walk in the forest. Most importantly, it feels like you've gone from walking through a bunch of narrow corridors in Kowloon, to walking through a similar set of corridors in Guilin, it's just that the walls have been replaced with trees.
I can't imagine this is what Yu had planned for Shenmue III, and I think this is borne out by how lush everything looks in the real Shenmue III that we have today. I know some people are put off by how dramatic the change is.
I think though, that we wouldn't see beautiful natural environments that would match the realism of the urban environments of Shenmue until Far Cry in 2004.

I hope Yu Suzuki will talk more about this after Shenmue III is released though. I think that the Shenmue III that we're getting is going to be dramatically different from the Shenmue III that Yu had in mind in 1999. Not just because of the technological advancements but because there is an expectation that must be met. That's why Yu's talking about forklifts and making the world larger and larger and more open etc.
There's no way that, after so many years, that Yu can stick to the "expand inward" idea. That kind of experimentation is only possible in an episodic framework where you can make one "episode" dramatically different without losing your audience - they've only waited a year or two for this episode, and will only have to wait another year or two for the next.
I do have an impression of what it might have been like (Majora's Mask on steroids!), however, and I still would love to play THAT game.
 
  • Development switches back to what we know of as Shenmue II, which would again be polished and extended. While this work is occurring, the entire future of Sega is in question. With that in mind, Yu Suzuki adds the short Guilin section we see in Shenmue II.

I agree with your post for the most part, but I feel like Guilin was being planned for the first Shenmue game that players would get their hands on for a while.

This is one of the first images of Shenmue that I remember seeing from early '99:

2809-shenmue-1-wyyxk.jpg

And we even saw some of Guilin in the Saturn footage:

vlcsnap-00144.png


It's all a bit confusing but hopefully Suzuki will open up (or even remember!) about this after III comes out.
 
Also to add to the confusion is the fact theres a video of Niao Sun running on the Saturn so I think there was a lot more completed of the Saturn version at least art work and map wise than the little video showed.

Another thing that puzzles me is did they port the original Saturn engine to run on DC (and then obviously add in various features, effects and made it handle higher resolutions) or did they simply start from scratch? Could explain why D3T stated that S1 was a bit of a mess code wise.

To make matters worse they were going to have to try and develop the engine further to push more capabilties out of it for any S3 but it was probably a bit of a rush job to get it converted to run on the X-Box so they could well of realised that it wasn't going to be a quick turnaround.
 
Originally shenhua was to be met a lot later in the game. Before that, there was the train scene that was cut out of the final version. I'm confident that the train scene would have been in the Saturn version.
 
There’s still the question if the source code for Shenmue on the saturn still exisits. Because Sega no longer has it for Panzer Dragoon RPG, which is why it hasn’t been re-released.

As for the train scene, I hope it’s reworked in a different part of the game at some poibt
 
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