Response To SuperEyePatchWolf Shenmue 3 Review

[Sonoshee]

While I think fans shouldn't have creative control over Yu's vision, I think dismissing fans is also a bad idea. The message this conveys is that the seventy thousand people who brought Shenmue back don't matter.

Nobody's trying to say they don't matter. Of course they do. But I'd like to think that most of those backers put money in the pot to see Yu's vision continued by the man himself, not to get a say on what should and shouldn't be in the game.
The first two Shenmue games did fine without fan input during development and I think Shenmue 3 in some regards would also have been better without it. As it was Kickstarter funded, there wasn't much choice.

Also, while I don't know Yu Suzuki's mindset at all, I would assume he's not allergic to criticism since he's a perfectionist himself.

There's nothing wrong with criticism, it's how it's put forward. If he reads some of those Kickstarter comments, for example, anyone in their right mind should feel sorry for the guy.

 

[hmjohnny]

I doubt that she expected Ryo to beat Lan Di; but that she thought that he would serve as a big enough distraction to keep Lan Di busy until it was too late seems plausible to me (I mean, that’s very nearly what happened).

Her plan very nearly succeeded (technically we still don’t know for sure that it didn’t - although I think it’s a very safe bet that Lan Di didn’t perish in the fire). Had Ryo not been there to keep Lan Di busy it would have been certain to fail because the second he saw smoke or flames, Lan Di would have left and then gone straight after Niao-Sun.

That she could very easily have asked Mr. Muscles to take the mirror from Ryo suggests that getting Ryo to the castle was very much a part of her plan. You could certainly argue that it’s convenient to the plot, but even knowing nothing about her character it would make sense for her to do everything in her power to increase the chances of her plan working - and Ryo being at the castle certainly serves that purpose.

This is possible but I interpreted it as her seizing the moment rather than planning it from the beginning. Perhaps she thought Ryo would hide the mirror from her so the only way to get it was to bait him into giving it willingly.

I do like the idea that Tentei could have told both Lan Di and Niao-Sun about the existence of only one of the mirrors and tasked each of them with retrieving it in exchange for control of the CYM when he steps aside. Perhaps we will find out in a future entry to the series.

A cool idea. I just wish Shenmue had more of this in its story. the way it's presented there is no reason to think this if there is a reason to think there is a Tian Di (Tentei) at all.

This is why it's very important to know who knows what when (and why I suspect Shenmue plays this very close to the chest). The story only really makes sense if the CYM know that there are two mirrors but think Iwao only had one, and think that Yuanda Zhu and then the stone-cutters in Guilin can point them in the direction of the other. This means that Niao Sun can't know that Ryo has the mirror in Guilin because why not just raid the village with the CYM and take it from him? Why stop at abducting the stone cutters? She learns that he has it in Niaowu and works to obtain it without Lan Di finding out about it. But it also means that Niao Sun has to know about the Dragon Mirror, so if she doesn't think Lan Di has it, where does she think that is? That also goes against her character being this all-knowing spymaster

Her and Lan Di defintiely don't know the whereabouts of the Phoenix Mirror at the beginning of S3. That's why Yanlang and co are sent to Bailu, they're exhausting their options trying to figure out where it is.

Interestingly this means that Yuanda Zhu lied/protected Iwao when interrogated by the CYM in S2. He knew Iwao took both mirrors to Japan but (presumably) told the CYM he didn't know forcing them to go to Bailu to dig around for leads.

Lan Di didn't necessarily think there was only one mirror, only that Iwao had possession of one. Considering the number of random-ass characters who know about both mirrors, and that Lan Di was headed for Guilin where stone cutters were being abducted for information about the mirrors, like I said, it only really makes sense if they know that both exist, just not where they are.

Could be a translation error but the bad ending of S1 indicates Lan Di doesn't know. Though TBH it doesn't make sense that he doesn't.

Niaowu is basically presented as Niao Sun's base of operations. I am certain many of them know at least vaguely who she is. She's still too conspicuous as Niao Sun, either way. There's no way she's able to act the same way as Li Feng, but without the disguise, and appear approachable to Ryo or Shenhua.

I don't know where in the games it is implied that Niaowu is her base of operations. I think that is being inferred from extra sources as we know (outside of the game) that she is supposedly the ruler of the southern branch of the CYM. This was likely the original intention of the story however, the game itself doesn't present this at all and we don't even know if the CYM has 4 leaders or is structured that way at all.

Lan Di is also in Niaowu, and he is sitting atop the castle. The game almost implies that Niao Sun is a subordinate of Lan Di's so we could just as well infer (likely even more so) that Niaowu is his base of operations. Especially since Suzhou, what would have been Lan Di's base, has been cut and I suspect (from our other conversations in other threads) that the ending of S3 was repurposed from the Suzhou chapter.

We pretty well can based on a number of different factors, but I'm almost positive Lan Di is never said to be the leader of the CYM; Only a leader of the CYM. If he was, it was probably a translation error

It's a translation error. In English S1 Master Chen says he is the leader of the CYM, but in Japanese he says one of the leaders.

The disguise I thought was just to goad information out of Shenhua, although even that is a stretch since they dont know who she is. I guess her usual attire is a bit too ostentatious and conspicuous, dressing plainly would make her appear more trustworthy.

Specifically this, it's understandable and a half.

1. CYM is located all across China, including Hong Kong.
2. They are the biggest of underworld gangs in China and Lan Di is the leader in HK (well, Eastern Branch).
3. Ren is involved in underworld gangs/crime and operates out of HK/Kowloon.
4. Niao Sun is the leader of the Southern Branch.
5. From what we know, Niao Sun does no go to HK

From those facts (and one hypothesis), it's pretty cut and dry how Ren would know about one and not the other.

You bring up something interesting I thought of before which is, are the CYM actually in Hong Kong? It seems that they operate there via a proxy with the Yellow Head. Aside from the fact that we don't have any in game information indicating Niao Sun runs the southern branch, if there were a southern branch why wouldn't it be HK? It makes the most sense geographically and HK is an international hub not Guilin a rural inland tourist destination.

My head canon has been that since Shenmue takes place in the 80's HK was not a part of China and therefore the CYM did not see it as a part of their domain, perhaps because they are a nationalistic organization or some other part of their ideals.

 

[ShenSun]

While I think fans shouldn't have creative control over Yu's vision, I think dismissing fans is also a bad idea. The message this conveys is that the seventy thousand people who brought Shenmue back don't matter. Shenmue, in reality, is a product that needs to sell in order to justify its existence. So on some level, you have to be willing to at least listen to your fanbase.

Also, while I don't know Yu Suzuki's mindset at all, I would assume he's not allergic to criticism since he's a perfectionist himself. Then there's a simple fact that in the IGN Japan interview Suzuki stated he wanted to broaden Shenmue's appeal if he makes the fourth game. Isolating himself would only be counterproductive to that ends.

In other words, I believe there needs to be a balance between the fans who offer constructive criticism and following your artistic vision.

The criticisms of Shenmue 3 are valid and should be addressed in Shenmue 4. Thats cool. We've said that a milllion times at this point

My issue is the hyperbolic, dramatic fans who feel the need to moan and whine at every opportunity in the most extreme way. Or who feel the need to insert their misery into innocent discussions that have nothing to do with the criticisms of Shenmue 3. Hence the Sharen meme

 

[hmjohnny]

1.Every Shenmue sequel relies too much on previous games stories. So, newcomers can't really understand what is going on. Yeah, making a 15-20 minutes previously movie doesn't fix it. The story should be able to stand on it's own.

How is this different from any sequel?

2.Ryo lasted only 1 second against Lan Di in the first game he also saw that his father couldn't even land a blow on him.
And yet what does he decide to do ?
To search for him and have another 1 second fight with him. He doesn't even want to actually get better in martial arts . His motivation is poorly written.

This is a fair point but almost everyone agrees it was a poorly handled part of the ending. Look at all the discussions on S3 many of them have brought up this point amongst the discussions for why S3 dissapointed them

3.Shenmue 1 wasted a lot of time in Yokosuka and introduced lots of filler sub plots to slow the pacing of the story.(And the whole Nozomi sub plot wasn't important at all for the whole Storyline since Shenhua is going to become Ryo's love interest. Ryo also fought the mad angels but was it important at all ? no.)

I agree with his (not the Nozomi part). Shenmue 1 is has a lot of filler which was an unfortunate result of splitting the first two games, likely in an effort to recoup additional development costs, that backfired on them. I think this is the reason a lot of people didn't get into Shenmue they couldn't see the potential buried deep in it.

4.Shenmue never had any closure in the first game. Rule number 1 of story writing is to give the story some kind of closure in the end of the first chapter so that if it becomes a failure then the fans will have a closure to the story.
-Tolkien made an ending for the Hobbit since he wasn't sure if it sells well enough.
-George Lucas gave Star Wars an ending in it's first movie because similar to Tolkien he wasn't sure that Star Wars would become successful.

Tolkien wrote the hobbit as a one off children's story, it was never meant to have a sequel. It was pressure from his publishers to write a sequel because of its success that led to LOTR. Also, don't think of Shenmue a series of episodes but as one long story broken up.

5.The whole game wants to tell you that "Revenge is bad." and yet in the bad ending you can see that if Ryo has really abandoned searching for Lan Di then Lan Di would come to his home and kill him in 1 second.

I don't think this is bad writing. The story could very well end up having a "revenge bad" message in the end. Ryo stubbornly plodding forward is a sign of his destiny since if he listened to Ine-San he would have died and Lan Di would have both mirrors.

6.And finally, none of Ryo's adventures has changed him at all. People on the internet bash Shenmue 3 for that even though that 1 and 2 had the same problem too.

I'm sensing a common theme in your criticisms. I think you mean to say that Shenmue has poor writing and not a bad story.

I don't think that because this series has made mistakes, stumbled in its writing (and perhaps continues to do so) means that the potential isn't there. Whether Shenmue lives up to its potential is a different discussion altogether but the fact that it has the story beats, characters, worldbuilding, and mysteries that it does implies that, at least conceptually, Shenmue has a good story.

People wanted to see the continuation of the plot, the characters and delve deeper into the mysteries that the first two games set up with S3. Those that were disappointed were because they felt S3 didn't deliver that but don't tell me that people didn't want S3 for its story because that's just absurd.

 

[hmjohnny]

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."
-John Carmack

This can be said of any medium.

Stories have been an important part of human society since the pre-historic times. History is on the side of the narrators.

 

[Godokunodan]

- Most would consider the Tomb Raider reboot to have a fairly decent story

- Never realized people who play Halo don't have any interest in the lore. All those guidebooks expanding the universe was just a waste of time.

- If that were the case, then why does Virtua Fighter struggle to find an audience? Why is Mortal Kombat IX praised for its story?

- Seriously disagree with you about the Arkham games having bad stories, especially Origins.

- Dungeons and Dragons doesn't need a Shakespearean tale, but it would enhance the experience.

Your reasons for enjoying Shenmue are your own, but I would contend that the reason Shenmue III received six million in Kickstarter funds was not because of its minigames or combat. I agree that gameplay is the most important element of any video game. However, a great narrative and lore enhances the experience for the player.

You really need to stop projecting your opinions as facts and assume everyone sees things the way you do.

Pretty much thumbs down on everything you said. Virtue Fighter has a HUGE audience in it's native country Japan. VF 2 was as popular as Pac man was in its heyday. Virtue Fighter 5 tournaments were still held in Japan with hundreds of players up until the pandemic. You are really just talking from an insular point of view. Case in point, the debacle with the Last Of Us Part II. I played it from beginning to end , hated the story, hated the new characters. But I have to take my hat off to Naughty Dog , I haven't had this many jump out of my seat gaming moments since Uncharted 2 on PS3. The gameplay is THAT DAMN GOOD. So regardless of the story, I give TLOU part 2 and 8 out of 10. People on Metacritic are review bombing the user reviews with zeros out of a hundred. It is a damn shame and it indicates a dark future for gaming.

I give Shenmue 3 a 8.5 out of 10. Loved the story, loved the gameplay but there were some issues they need to iron out with it. There is a cognitive disconnect between the current generation of gamers and the 1990-early 2000 generation of gamers. The current generation of gamers seem to equated the word " video game" with "CGI movie" . These type of gamers rate gameplay as 10% important to a game and story and cinematic 90% important.

The legacy of developers like Hideo Kojima who put games on the map as cinematic digital entertainment has been perverted in this current zeigeist. It's like a dystopian future now seeing how Cyberbullied Neil Druckman is after busting his hump making a phenomenal game. He is a genius just like Yu Suzuki , and Hideo Kojima . The current generation just want to set the game on "easy difficulty" cruise through a game on autopilot and watch cinematic passively. If that's what you want from Shenmue III then no wonder so many of you are upset with the game.

I personally rate gameplay 90% important to a video game , and story 10% important. That's why I loved Shenmue III and TLOU Part 2. If this current zeigeist of binge-watching gaming continues and persists to persecute the talent trying to make games over movies , guess whats going to happen? The talent will leave and we will suffer another video game bust like we did in the early 1980's. I've seen some YouTube's review TLOU PII with incredible vitriol and they freely admit they didnt actually play the game, and review it solely base on the cutscenes they've watched on YouTube. It's ridiculous. I cant believe gaming has come to this.

 

[The Hero Spot]

1.Every Shenmue sequel relies too much on previous games stories. So, newcomers can't really understand what is going on. Yeah, making a 15-20 minutes previously movie doesn't fix it. The story should be able to stand on it's own.

2.Ryo lasted only 1 second against Lan Di in the first game he also saw that his father couldn't even land a blow on him.
And yet what does he decide to do ?
To search for him and have another 1 second fight with him. He doesn't even want to actually get better in martial arts . His motivation is poorly written.

3.Shenmue 1 wasted a lot of time in Yokosuka and introduced lots of filler sub plots to slow the pacing of the story.(And the whole Nozomi sub plot wasn't important at all for the whole Storyline since Shenhua is going to become Ryo's love interest. Ryo also fought the mad angels but was it important at all ? no.)

4.Shenmue never had any closure in the first game. Rule number 1 of story writing is to give the story some kind of closure in the end of the first chapter so that if it becomes a failure then the fans will have a closure to the story.
-Tolkien made an ending for the Hobbit since he wasn't sure if it sells well enough.
-George Lucas gave Star Wars an ending in it's first movie because similar to Tolkien he wasn't sure that Star Wars would become successful.

5.The whole game wants to tell you that "Revenge is bad." and yet in the bad ending you can see that if Ryo has really abandoned searching for Lan Di then Lan Di would come to his home and kill him in 1 second.

6.And finally, none of Ryo's adventures has changed him at all. People on the internet bash Shenmue 3 for that even though that 1 and 2 had the same problem too.

Nah, it only had better story and graphics than 1 with exactly the same gameplay , no improvements to gameplay, much less enemy types, worse bossfights and badly balanced hard difficulty.(That ruins some sections of the game.)
Silent Hill 2 sold half copies compared to SH 1 then after than came SH 3 and 4 which became less and less successful than SH 2.
Because Silent Hill developers focused more on graphics and storyline than on actual gameplay.(On the other hand Capcom always focused on improving RE's gameplay with every sequel.Even RE 3 remake had more gameplay improvements compared to Silent Hill 2.)

1. Stories can span throughout multiple instalments, this falls under serialized storytelling. Why is this bad exactly? It’s not the games fault that a player jumped into the story without having played/watched the previous entries. I fail to see how this equates to bad storytelling.

2. Multiple characters reinforce him that he’s no match for Lan Di but he refuses to listen. Ryo is established to be someone who’s very stubborn, irrational and reactionary. These are obvious character flaws of his that he needs to overcome. Characters having character flaws isn’t exactly bad writing. I’d say it becomes bad writing in Shenmue 3 because Ryo doesn’t reflect on himself much after he lost another fight with Lan Di and decides to go to the cliff temple to face him again without even training after their last encounter. This should’ve been where Ryo’s character began to grow and change. Shenmue 1 and 2 delivered a strong basis for Ryo’s character arc and Shenmue 3 doesn’t do much with it. Also, Ryo clearly does want to get better at martial arts...which is why we see him practicing Tai Chi in Guilin and he even says he was very observant of other martial artists who were practicing it. Ryo more so gets annoyed by the process it takes to get better, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he doesn’t want to get better

3. Shenmue 1 was mainly focused on world building and establishing connections between the player and the wide variety of characters. Slow pacing isn’t inherently bad, in fact, Shenmue benefits from it. You can tell a good story whether it be slow or fast paced. Pacing issues occur when the pacing is inconsistent and things don’t have a natural flow. in Shenmue all the details/objectives are intricately connected and tie into the next story beat. It’s not bad pacing because everything goes in a logical and steady pace.

Also, Nozomi is used to demonstrate how Ryo is blinded by revenge and how it’s caused him to distance himself from his loved ones. They could’ve sparked a relationship but he lost sight of what was truly important. This ties into Ryo’s arc of letting go of his desire for revenge and keeping his loved one’s close just like his father told him before he died.

plus, the mad angels helped lan Di get to Hong kong so Lan Di could go after Yuanda Zhu

4. Again, Shenmue is serialized and the story spans throughout multiple instalments. This is not bad storytelling. both Episodic and Serialized storytelling can work effectively and one is not inherently superior to the other. If a writer chooses to make their first chapter in a story feel like a condensed story that stands on its own, that’s great. If a writer chooses to make the first chapter in a story set up the world and characters and build towards future instalments then that’s also great. None of them are bad approaches. Saying every first chapter should just be one story just so fans have closure if it doesn’t get a sequel is just limiting storytellers. by this logic, should every long running tv series with an overarching plot just end the story with season 1 out of fear of a potential cancellation? No they shouldn’t. The story should go at a pace that the writer sees fit. If complications prevent it from continuing beyond that point, that does not make it a bad story. it simply means the story never got a chance to finish. Shows, movies or games that ended on a cliffhanger and never continued can still have good storytelling (a lot of them do)

5. That ending is not canon and at that point Ryo would’ve still had a desire for revenge in the story. Although the player chose not to do any of the main missions in the game, Ryo still hasn’t went through that arc yet.

6. As i said earlier, Ryo’s arc is a long progression that spans multiple games (and I’ve explained in point.2 why it works in the first two games but not in 3, the first two games built the groundwork for Ryo’s arc and after he fights lan Di again in Shenmue 3, we don’t see him start to realize that he’s essentially on a suicide mission, this should’ve been the part where reality begins to hit Ryo but he decides to head straight for lan Di after immediately getting his ass kicked)

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

Pretty much thumbs down on everything you said. Virtua Fighter has a HUGE audience in its native country Japan. VF 2 was as popular as Pacman was in its heyday. Virtue Fighter 5 tournaments were still held in Japan with hundreds of players up until the pandemic. You are really just talking from an insular point of view. Case in point, the debacle with the Last Of Us Part II. I played it from beginning to end, hated the story, hated the new characters. But I have to take my hat off to Naughty Dog, I haven't had this many jump out of my seat gaming moments since Uncharted 2 on PS3. The gameplay is THAT DAMN GOOD. So regardless of the story, I give TLOU parts 2 and 8 out of 10. People on Metacritic are review bombing the user reviews with zeros out of a hundred. It is a damn shame and it indicates a dark future for gaming.

I give Shenmue 3 an 8.5 out of 10. Loved the story, loved the gameplay but there were some issues they need to iron out with it. There is a cognitive disconnect between the current generation of gamers and the 1990-early 2000 generation of gamers. The current generation of gamers seems to equate the word " video game" with "CGI movie". These types of gamers rate gameplay as 10% important to a game and story and cinematic 90% important.

The legacy of developers like Hideo Kojima who put games on the map as cinematic digital entertainment has been perverted in this current zeitgeist. It's like a dystopian future now seeing how Cyberbullied Neil Druckman is after busting his hump making a phenomenal game. He is a genius just like Yu Suzuki, and Hideo Kojima. The current generation just wants to set the game on "easy difficulty" cruise through a game on autopilot and watch cinematic passively. If that's what you want from Shenmue III then no wonder so much of you are upset with the game.

I personally rate gameplay 90% important to a video game, and story 10% important. That why I loved Shenmue III and TLOU Part 2. If this current zeitgeist of binge-watching gaming continues and persists to persecute the talent trying to make games over movies, guess what's going to happen? The talent will leave and we will suffer another video game bust as we did in the early 1980s. I've seen some YouTube's review TLOU PII with incredible vitriol and they freely admit they didn't actually play the game, and review it solely based on the cutscenes they've watched on YouTube. It's ridiculous. I can't believe gaming has come to this.

When I was making the comparison to Virtua Fighter I was coming from a western perspective in the sense that it's not as popular outside Japan as other titles like Tekken, Dead or Alive, or Soul Calibur. I guess I should have made that more apparent so you have my apologies. That still doesn't change the fact that one of the most common criticisms I hear is that the Virtua Fighter characters are too "generic" or that there's no story (which isn't true). While Mortal Kombat IX was praised for its story.

As for the rest of your post, it seems you've overlooked the part where I clearly stated (something that shows in the post you quoted) that "Gameplay is the most important element in a video game, but that narrative, lore, and characters enhance that experience further for the player." It was merely a response to @Dg1995 stating that story doesn't matter at all in video games. Every player has their own personal reasons for why they play video games and those reasons are perfectly valid.

 

[Creward]

View attachment 8621

Yep, nothing major happened in Shenmue 3 besides fishing.

I consider the plot of 3 quite thin, similar on how Shenmue1 plot was also thin perse.
I do see that the last section of Shenmue3 does shake the stato quo, as your image points up 5 of the 8 events listed are the endgame and I believe a lot of people would not have much complaints on the plot per se if the narrative (remember narrative and plot are different concepts one being how is told the other what is being told) was better paced and had more "breadcrumbs/clues" along the journey than just at the final castle section.

I do see that some people are hyperbolic to defend their views but I do not know if attacking those will help mediate or downscale the situation.

 

[Godokunodan]

In ten years, gamers will be review bombing AAA games on Metacritic with Zero score User reviews because they dont like the game's soundtrack. " I can't dance to the soundtrack!!! I demand a refund!!"

 

[Creward]

You guys care too much about the story.

Add that to movies in general, that medium is limited because it has the limit of ~3 hours.
The medium which is king for stories is literature.
The medium that can be king for horror is precisely videogames the interactive layer it offers can enhance the experience significantly.
I do believe videogames can tell stories better than films in general but I do not thi g it got to that point quite yet but it is super close.

 

[RyoHazuki84]

1.Every Shenmue sequel relies too much on previous games stories. So, newcomers can't really understand what is going on. Yeah, making a 15-20 minutes previously movie doesn't fix it. The story should be able to stand on it's own.

Shenmue as a whole was intended to be told as one epic story.

2.Ryo lasted only 1 second against Lan Di in the first game he also saw that his father couldn't even land a blow on him.
And yet what does he decide to do ?
To search for him and have another 1 second fight with him. He doesn't even want to actually get better in martial arts . His motivation is poorly written.

When we first spar with Xiuying in Shenmue 2, I was kind of anticipating that if we were to fight Lan Di in Shenmue 3, it would've went down the way it did in 3. I understand lots of people have issue with it, but I'll admit I kind of saw it coming which is why I sort of don't mind the way the fight went down. Then again, this is common in a lot of martial arts media where a guy has to fight a guy a jillion times stronger than him and all that.

 

[RetroLord120]

Yikes the video hit 1 million views.

 

[高野和泉]

Yikes the video hit 1 million views.

Just means Shenmue's redemption will be more glorious if SIV delivers.

 

[Real1]

Just means Shenmue's redemption will be more glorious if SIV delivers.

Gotta love the optimism.

 

[ShenFan2020]

I am surprised to hear in his video he was another one that didn’t enjoy the training regime and section with Mr. Sun.

Honestly that whole section was probably the best story related quest in the whole game for me. First learning about how miserly and cheap Mr. Sun is from other locals, often running out on his tab with various vendors. Then I loved the combination of his location at the abandoned temple and the music they refused from this scene. Then the training regiment felt suitably rural, plus it was one of the rare times Ryo demonstrates self awareness and understands catching chickens is helping his body and positioning for the move. Finally followed up by the instruction and demonstration of the move which was well choreographed and felt like a genuine Shenmue moment from previous games.

Honestly I loved it...

Because its a giant fetch quest lol