Ryo is the best worst Martial Artist of all time

[Dehone]

There is a big flaw in this discussion: pretending that all thugs are all low level fighters.

There is a pattern in Shenmue series that is just like Akira story in Virtua Fighter:

Shenmue 1: begin in Japan, there Ryo is a force to be reckoned with
Shenmue 2: out of your home, things start to get serious
Shenmue 3: the world is big, there are many martial artist better than Ryo, even thugs cannot be understimated. Ryo real training and growth start here.

Don't confuse Ryo Hazuki with Kazuma Kiryu from Yakuza series, probably even in Shenmue 5, Ryo will remain a normal human.

But a lot of those enemies are low level fighters, using sluggish brawling techniques aka moves where they telegraph to their opponent what they're going to do before they do them. In S3, theres a QTE where Ryo is basically toying with one of the Red Snakes who's attacking the(the QTE where you gotta make sure the thug doesn't crash into the vendors stand). He's brushing off his attacks in that comedic/cool Jet Li "this conflict doesn't even require me to get into a fighting stance" way. Then when Ryo fights him again, this time alongside his boss at the diner, he gets the same "this finna be a breeze" treatment. His boss doesn't fare much better as Ryo handles him with cocky effortless parrys and punches after trying to attack him with a bottle.


Yes, Ryo is in another country but that doesn't necessarily mean foreign country=your common street thug is an excellent martial artist. Ryo has fought enough experienced fighters to know that most of the victories weren't flukes and that hes fighting at a high enough level that shouldn't allow him to get washed as easily as he does in the third game.


Maybe it's just how the characters are actually presented(clumsy, somewhat cowardly and incompetent with exaggerated physical animations including poor fighting techniques during cutscenes), but these dudes shouldn't be giving Ryo this much trouble.

Also, Kazuma fights regular street thugs for the most part(either low level Yakuza or street punks on the level of Enoki and Goro).

 

[Wolfghosts]

Have to say I disagree with the opening post regarding the first two games. Shenmue III doesn't do a good job because it comes across as Ryo is being beaten by low level randoms.

I looked back to your post but you didn't really elaborate on why you disagree at all?

Anyway my point being if you analyse the fighters, styles and Ryo's character you can see why he does get beat and what he needs to do to overcome them. However that is only a short term gain, the longer term remains in his training focus.

You're assessment is well thought out but I disagree on a few levels, to begin with Hazuki's style is a hybrid style that from the beginning make him a more adaptable fighter, this includes influence Iwao attained training in China, and having trained with his father from a clearly young age, Ryo should be well above most in terms of fight competency which is the reason why in Shenmue 1 he handles himself very well with the exception of Chai who isnt so talented as he is a crazy unpredictable meth-head (not that the Pedro fight isn't hard either.)

In Shenmue 2 he's not that far off from 1 and yes he has to adapt to the new styles there and grow through training because he's too rash for anyone at those higher levels like Lan Di and that's fine, I think it's well done that there's a lot of growth for him in 2. Though I still even if it would be bad taste disagree with the fact that Ryo can't hit a 75 year old Jianmin at all regardless of Jianmins competency.

Shenmue 3 though treats him like he JUST picked up Martial Arts and new styles be damned, that's not how fighting works you don't suddenly lose your ability to read opponents and know how to strike because they're moving a bit different than youre used to.

Now the fact that Ryo is only about 145lbs THAT is what makes it more believable that he'd be ineffectual against someone like Dou Niu or the Red Snakes boss but they act like just because they're blocks of fat/muscle that someone who hits hard is just going to bounce off them, when really it's more similar to how when Conor Mcgregor was bouncing around with The Mountain which is a similar size difference and while not a serious bout at all you could see there was still an effect based on the face contortions The Mountain makes towards the hits he does take.

 

[spud1897]

I looked back to your post but you didn't really elaborate on why you disagree at all?



You're assessment is well thought out but I disagree on a few levels, to begin with Hazuki's style is a hybrid style that from the beginning make him a more adaptable fighter, this includes influence Iwao attained training in China, and having trained with his father from a clearly young age, Ryo should be well above most in terms of fight competency which is the reason why in Shenmue 1 he handles himself very well with the exception of Chai who isnt so talented as he is a crazy unpredictable meth-head (not that the Pedro fight isn't hard either.)

In Shenmue 2 he's not that far off from 1 and yes he has to adapt to the new styles there and grow through training because he's too rash for anyone at those higher levels like Lan Di and that's fine, I think it's well done that there's a lot of growth for him in 2. Though I still even if it would be bad taste disagree with the fact that Ryo can't hit a 75 year old Jianmin at all regardless of Jianmins competency.

Shenmue 3 though treats him like he JUST picked up Martial Arts and new styles be damned, that's not how fighting works you don't suddenly lose your ability to read opponents and know how to strike because they're moving a bit different than youre used to.

Now the fact that Ryo is only about 145lbs THAT is what makes it more believable that he'd be ineffectual against someone like Dou Niu or the Red Snakes boss but they act like just because they're blocks of fat/muscle that someone who hits hard is just going to bounce off them, when really it's more similar to how when Conor Mcgregor was bouncing around with The Mountain which is a similar size difference and while not a serious bout at all you could see there was still an effect based on the face contortions The Mountain makes towards the hits he does take.

Appreciate the reply. I'll drop a reply when I'm not on the beer. Have a good one :)

 

[gladias9]

...

I agree with that analysis mostly.
I think Mr Muscles was handled fairly well considering that his style was indeed unique. It's just that when the game boils down his defeat to simply 'Buy a move scroll', it's a complete disconnect. Master Bei should have been telling us how to counter Mr Muscle's individual styles like "Tiger stance is offensive based, do not try to guard and instead dodge. Turtle style is defensive, avoid attacking him.".. Stuff like that would've gotten the point across a lot better.

 

[spud1897]

I looked back to your post but you didn't really elaborate on why you disagree at all?



You're assessment is well thought out but I disagree on a few levels, to begin with Hazuki's style is a hybrid style that from the beginning make him a more adaptable fighter, this includes influence Iwao attained training in China, and having trained with his father from a clearly young age, Ryo should be well above most in terms of fight competency which is the reason why in Shenmue 1 he handles himself very well with the exception of Chai who isnt so talented as he is a crazy unpredictable meth-head (not that the Pedro fight isn't hard either.)

In Shenmue 2 he's not that far off from 1 and yes he has to adapt to the new styles there and grow through training because he's too rash for anyone at those higher levels like Lan Di and that's fine, I think it's well done that there's a lot of growth for him in 2. Though I still even if it would be bad taste disagree with the fact that Ryo can't hit a 75 year old Jianmin at all regardless of Jianmins competency.

Shenmue 3 though treats him like he JUST picked up Martial Arts and new styles be damned, that's not how fighting works you don't suddenly lose your ability to read opponents and know how to strike because they're moving a bit different than youre used to.

Now the fact that Ryo is only about 145lbs THAT is what makes it more believable that he'd be ineffectual against someone like Dou Niu or the Red Snakes boss but they act like just because they're blocks of fat/muscle that someone who hits hard is just going to bounce off them, when really it's more similar to how when Conor Mcgregor was bouncing around with The Mountain which is a similar size difference and while not a serious bout at all you could see there was still an effect based on the face contortions The Mountain makes towards the hits he does take.

I think we agree on most of what was said in my post above.

You're right about Ryo's style being a mixture of grapples and strikes. I probably didn't give that enough credit to be fair.

I get what you're saying in Shenmue III that it looks like he's forgotten what hes learnt and is starting from scratch. He's not but this isn't explained. What would have been good is a recap of the lessons he should have learnt by that point. All the masters should have said, remember the wude, clear your mind etc. It was focussed on his speed and effiencent movements, which is important for sure and feeds into his overall skill.

What I'm saying is if they gave some speech around his mind clouding his judgement/ability to judge skilled fighters movements along with his lack of (bad choice of words but its early here lol) skills in movements that would have painted a better picture.

I agree with that analysis mostly.
I think Mr Muscles was handled fairly well considering that his style was indeed unique. It's just that when the game boils down his defeat to simply 'Buy a move scroll', it's a complete disconnect. Master Bei should have been telling us how to counter Mr Muscle's individual styles like "Tiger stance is offensive based, do not try to guard and instead dodge. Turtle style is defensive, avoid attacking him.".. Stuff like that would've gotten the point across a lot better.

I like this idea, it's one I'd not given much thought to but would work beautifully and fall within previous teaching methods where Ryo learns moves. Even if this section was a longer based QTE fight, for example, you could have mini flashbacks to the teacher saying "counter mantis style with close strikes" as an example and in the sequence Ryo's moves reflect that. Sounds good in my book!

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

So I finished Shenmue 3 the other night and I loved it for the most part, starting it up felt like I stepped right back into 2000 the first time I played it on Dreamcast.

But

There's one problem that's bothered me since the beginning that has been prevalent throughout the series and that is that Ryo is only as useful as a Martial Artist as it is convenient to the plot. Shenmue I probably handled it the best, obviously Lan Di is a force he's unprepared for at the time, and along that journey Ryo is shown to be competent but still immature and thats probably Guizhangs biggest gripe as the two are at similar levels, also you can lose or win against Chai and Enoki.

Shenmue II there was more emphasis on Ryo maturing and learning but this is where it really started to get to into "These masters are untouchable and Ryo is nothing compared to them" rhetoric we know he's competent but the "fight me" to an opponent who dodges or blocks every move is repetitive and boring. Even so though theres still showing growth, and the fight against Dou Niu at least makes sense that he needs to get stronger to fight a truly monstrously sized man.

Shenmue 3, Ryo has grown in the months since, he's been fighting frequently, he dispatches thugs with ease but for some reason they still get the better of him even if he wins the fights against the labeled bosses, even though he shouldnt have lost to by this point, but Chai is now easily dispatched (also side note loved Chais bedroom and family portrait). More untouchable masters, and culminating in again an untouchable Lan Di who remarks at Ryos growth but for a guy who has most likely only been sitting around for the last 4 straight months is WORLDS ahead, I would have preferred a more mixed battle that Ryo still could have lost and been saved from by the burning castle.

I understand where Yu Suzuki is coming from with attempting to show Ryo's growth but at this point repeating the same plot devices is such poor writing, that he might as well never fight Lan Di or buy a gun, because there's always someone better than him, and he cant even land a punch on some senior citizens.

Ryo won against the Mad Angels because he had Guizhang’s help, not because he was the superior fighter. This becomes obvious in Shenmue II when Ryo tries to take on the Heaven’s Gang alone and loses. Ryo only managed to take out the Yellow Heads Gang because once again, he had help (from Ren and the Heavens this time). When it comes to Chai, Ryo has defeated him twice already (three times if you count the arcade) so he is familiar with his skills. As for growth, all I can ask is how has Ryo grown? Like I said in a previous post, he has learned about the Wude, but that does not mean he has internalized it. If anything, he still seems hellbent on getting revenge as soon as possible and treats anyone who tries to stop him (like Xiuying) as a hinderance.

Personally I find him losing to some elder masters to make perfect sense. In Yokosuka Ryo was a big fish in a small pond, however when he’s thrown into a much larger world, he is shown just how inexperienced he is. These “senior citizens” are people who have been training long before Ryo was even born. So it makes perfect sense for them to treat Ryo’s abilities like child’s play.

Finally when it comes to Longsun Zhao, keep in mind that he was trained in the Tiger Swallow Style. A martial art so deadly in canon that the Emperor of China had it banned. Or that Iwao Hazuki an experienced and revered martial artist, not only could not land a blow against Lan-Di, but was killed by him. So when you take all these factors into account, I would say Ryo’s skill as a martial artist have been pretty consistent.

 

[Wolfghosts]

Ryo won against the Mad Angels because he had Guizhang’s help, not because he was the superior fighter. This becomes obvious in Shenmue II when Ryo tries to take on the Heaven’s Gang alone and loses. Ryo only managed to take out the Yellow Heads Gang because once again, he had help (from Ren and the Heavens this time). When it comes to Chai, Ryo has defeated him twice already (three times if you count the arcade) so he is familiar with his skills. As for growth, all I can ask is how has Ryo grown? Like I said in a previous post, he has learned about the Wude, but that does not mean he has internalized it. If anything, he still seems hellbent on getting revenge as soon as possible and treats anyone who tries to stop him (like Xiuying) as a hinderance.

Personally I find him losing to some elder masters to make perfect sense. In Yokosuka Ryo was a big fish in a small pond, however when he’s thrown into a much larger world, he is shown just how inexperienced he is. These “senior citizens” are people who have been training long before Ryo was even born. So it makes perfect sense for them to treat Ryo’s abilities like child’s play.

Finally when it comes to Longsun Zhao, keep in mind that he was trained in the Tiger Swallow Style. A martial art so deadly in canon that the Emperor of China had it banned. Or that Iwao Hazuki an experienced and revered martial artist, not only could not land a blow against Lan-Di, but was killed by him. So when you take all these factors into account, I would say Ryo’s skill as a martial artist have been pretty consistent.

That's inaccurate though, in S1 Ryo is shown in his competency having fought and defeated what 5+ of the sailors who would no doubt be about level with the Mad Angels, they're a brute gang not a refined one. He's also shown to be at level with Gui Zhang in spite of his rashness the ability is there but not the focus, don't forget the two are in a stalemate just before starting the 70 man battle, and Ryo is left to fight Pedro on his own. With Chai I don't believe the arcade fight is canon, while possible I think the intended canon is thst Ryo loses that fight and then handles Chai better after the fact when he learns a bit from the bum (Im forgetting his name). So from Shenmue 1 we can see his technique isn't the issue and everyone acknowledges his downfall will be that he is so clouded and focused on revenge.

Personally I see a lot of growth in S2 because of the fact that he's exposed to the new styles, different masters, starts undertaking those Mr. Miyagi level tasks of catching leaves and punching trees, it begins to take hold because he is able to accomplish them but yes he is still clouded. Also again he has the help of Ren but at the end he's fighting Dou Niu on his own.

My problem with the Masters is I'll admit just solely based in the realism aspect which I understand this is a Kung Fu epic and follows Martial Arts movie logic at times I just really don't enjoy it because it's literally impossible in real life to block shots that connect the way they do and be completely unphased in real life (although being highly effectice at evasion is possible as someone mentioned Mayweather befpre).

This goes back to the Martial Arts movie logic with Lan Di as well, I have no problem with him out classing Ryo and everyone else for that matter, Lan Di is clearly a level above but notice in Shenmue 1 he evades all of Iwaos attacks then strikes at the perfect moment, so technically Ryo has surpassed Iwao then considering Lan Di has to block his attacks.

Also let us just remember again this is a Kung Fu epic and Ryo is the hero, the hero learns and gains the skills along the way to beat the bad guy the idea that 40% through the story he's the exact same would just be poor writing. They've placed the building blocks and my disappointment isn't that he couldn't beat Lan Di because I don't think he should at this point but I feel it would have been better had he put up a fight against Lan Di and been saved by the burning castle to better examine his faults in S4.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

That's inaccurate though, in S1 Ryo is shown in his competency having fought and defeated what 5+ of the sailors who would no doubt be about level with the Mad Angels, they're a brute gang not a refined one. He's also shown to be at level with Gui Zhang in spite of his rashness the ability is there but not the focus, don't forget the two are in a stalemate just before starting the 70 man battle, and Ryo is left to fight Pedro on his own. With Chai I don't believe the arcade fight is canon, while possible I think the intended canon is thst Ryo loses that fight and then handles Chai better after the fact when he learns a bit from the bum (Im forgetting his name). So from Shenmue 1 we can see his technique isn't the issue and everyone acknowledges his downfall will be that he is so clouded and focused on revenge.

Personally I see a lot of growth in S2 because of the fact that he's exposed to the new styles, different masters, starts undertaking those Mr. Miyagi level tasks of catching leaves and punching trees, it begins to take hold because he is able to accomplish them but yes he is still clouded. Also again he has the help of Ren but at the end he's fighting Dou Niu on his own.

My problem with the Masters is I'll admit just solely based in the realism aspect which I understand this is a Kung Fu epic and follows Martial Arts movie logic at times I just really don't enjoy it because it's literally impossible in real life to block shots that connect the way they do and be completely unphased in real life (although being highly effectice at evasion is possible as someone mentioned Mayweather befpre).

This goes back to the Martial Arts movie logic with Lan Di as well, I have no problem with him out classing Ryo and everyone else for that matter, Lan Di is clearly a level above but notice in Shenmue 1 he evades all of Iwaos attacks then strikes at the perfect moment, so technically Ryo has surpassed Iwao then considering Lan Di has to block his attacks.

Also let us just remember again this is a Kung Fu epic and Ryo is the hero, the hero learns and gains the skills along the way to beat the bad guy the idea that 40% through the story he's the exact same would just be poor writing. They've placed the building blocks and my disappointment isn't that he couldn't beat Lan Di because I don't think he should at this point but I feel it would have been better had he put up a fight against Lan Di and been saved by the burning castle to better examine his faults in S4.

There is a difference between fighting against five sailors and fighting against seventy gang members. However, if he can take on the enterity of the Mad Angels (exhausted, along with Pedro Warren) then why does Ryo lose to The Heavens in Shenmue II when he is in much better condition? When it comes to Chai in the arcade, we will just have to agree to disagree since it is not really clear who won that fight and even if it was, it does not alter the story much either way.

You are right that he does learn new things, but how has his character changed? For example, even after he is taught by Xiuying to maintain his composure through catching leaves or learning from the Wude that one must remain calm and do the right thing, he still wants to kill Lan-Di for murdering his father. He is still reckless and decides to ally himself with a very dangerous gang leader if it means getting closer to finding Lan-Di. Even after this initial leader attempted to scam him or kill/injure him. Also when Xiuying tries to point all this out to him he simply tells her (in a polite way) to fuck off if she is not going to help him get his revenge. So if anything, I would argue that Ryo has changed very little at this point in the storyline. Interesting thing though is that Yu Suzuki has come out and said that Ryo will eventually abandon his pursuit of revenge (though I wish I could find the exact source).

Also I guess another thing we differ on is that I simply just see Shenmue as Shenmue. The whole thing about it being a typical Kung-Fu movie never really crossed my mind.

 

[RyoIsTheShenmueTree]

What I tell myself, is that the level of fighters that Ryo is coming up against keeps increasing as he goes deeper into the criminal underworld. He is basically taking on a mafia that controls through kung fu more so than machine guns, and the leaders are masters. Ryo's father was a great martial artist, and was dismantled and killed by Lan Di, and Lan Di might not even be the biggest fish in the story-he just got played by Niao Sun.

Another thing is that there are not actually that many fights in Shenmue, compared to other games, for Ryo to dramatically increase his ability.

And finally, though for us it seems like the story has been going on for a long time- the second game came out a year or 2 after the first, and we had to wait 18 years for the third, only about 5 or 6 months has passed in the game from the day that Ryo came home to find Lan Di killing his father, until now. He is only 18 years old has a lot to learn.

 

[Wolfghosts]

There is a difference between fighting against five sailors and fighting against seventy gang members. However, if he can take on the enterity of the Mad Angels (exhausted, along with Pedro Warren) then why does Ryo lose to The Heavens in Shenmue II when he is in much better condition? When it comes to Chai in the arcade, we will just have to agree to disagree since it is not really clear who won that fight and even if it was, it does not alter the story much either way.

You are right that he does learn new things, but how has his character changed? For example, even after he is taught by Xiuying to maintain his composure through catching leaves or learning from the Wude that one must remain calm and do the right thing, he still wants to kill Lan-Di for murdering his father. He is still reckless and decides to ally himself with a very dangerous gang leader if it means getting closer to finding Lan-Di. Even after this initial leader attempted to scam him or kill/injure him. Also when Xiuying tries to point all this out to him he simply tells her (in a polite way) to fuck off if she is not going to help him get his revenge. So if anything, I would argue that Ryo has changed very little at this point in the storyline. Interesting thing though is that Yu Suzuki has come out and said that Ryo will eventually abandon his pursuit of revenge (though I wish I could find the exact source).

Also I guess another thing we differ on is that I simply just see Shenmue as Shenmue. The whole thing about it being a typical Kung-Fu movie never really crossed my mind.

Well if we go by the recap movie that comes along with Shenmue II, Ryo loses the initial fight to Chai so thats what Im going n even though Ive won it on numerous occasions. As for him losing to the Heavens that's my point that the series has little consistency he's either awesome, or he sucks, he can knock some people out with a single blow, but then get beaten up by some others, in the fight with the Mad Angels him and Guizhang were at least equal partners in taking on the 70 of them.

With regards to his character changing I dont mean it as in he's done a complete 180 buf rather he's been given the building blocks to change and started the turn was all. Clearly S2 had a much longer timeline for the finished product so Im magnifying the bits and pieces of why Ryo might start to question his own motives which I think is reflected a bit in the goodbye to Xiuying where she wishes him to not go down the same path as her brother and he empathizes with her brothers path and says ",I won't die" which it's a stretch but its less hellbent than in Shenmue 1 where his intention is at all costs. Also his goodbyes with the rest of the masters before going to Kowloon seem appreciative and acknowledge the Wude to keep his focus at least once, Then it goes out the window in 3.

And I see Shenmue as its own thing too wth a wonderful world built around it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't follow a similar structure to many many Kung Fu epics and thats not a negative either in the same way the Hero's journey is a standard framework

 

[Wolfghosts]

What I tell myself, is that the level of fighters that Ryo is coming up against keeps increasing as he goes deeper into the criminal underworld. He is basically taking on a mafia that controls through kung fu more so than machine guns, and the leaders are masters. Ryo's father was a great martial artist, and was dismantled and killed by Lan Di, and Lan Di might not even be the biggest fish in the story-he just got played by Niao Sun.

Another thing is that there are not actually that many fights in Shenmue, compared to other games, for Ryo to dramatically increase his ability.

And finally, though for us it seems like the story has been going on for a long time- the second game came out a year or 2 after the first, and we had to wait 18 years for the third, only about 5 or 6 months has passed in the game from the day that Ryo came home to find Lan Di killing his father, until now. He is only 18 years old has

The thing is, he's really finding those tougher gangsters in rural china? It doesn't add up to me. Now with total number of fights and the time frame there's actually a significant amount realistically S1 had the least amount of fights but this is ramped up with his street fighting and encounters in 2 and probably double that in S3, in what 4-5 months in game Ryo is going under multiple training sessions mastering techniques and fighting with approximately what 150 opponents and winning most of them? Thats definite crash course for fighter of the year award.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

Well if we go by the recap movie that comes along with Shenmue II, Ryo loses the initial fight to Chai so thats what Im going n even though Ive won it on numerous occasions. As for him losing to the Heavens that's my point that the series has little consistency he's either awesome, or he sucks, he can knock some people out with a single blow, but then get beaten up by some others, in the fight with the Mad Angels him and Guizhang were at least equal partners in taking on the 70 of them.

With regards to his character changing I dont mean it as in he's done a complete 180 buf rather he's been given the building blocks to change and started the turn was all. Clearly S2 had a much longer timeline for the finished product so Im magnifying the bits and pieces of why Ryo might start to question his own motives which I think is reflected a bit in the goodbye to Xiuying where she wishes him to not go down the same path as her brother and he empathizes with her brothers path and says ",I won't die" which it's a stretch but its less hellbent than in Shenmue 1 where his intention is at all costs. Also his goodbyes with the rest of the masters before going to Kowloon seem appreciative and acknowledge the Wude to keep his focus at least once, Then it goes out the window in 3.

And I see Shenmue as its own thing too wth a wonderful world built around it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't follow a similar structure to many many Kung Fu epics and thats not a negative either in the same way the Hero's journey is a standard framework

This will be my last post on this topic. Your argument basically boils down to "If Ryo has the skill to defeat high level warriors, why does he lose to a bunch of low level thugs?" My entire point has been that throughout the story Ryo has struggled with delinquents as often as he has triumphed over them. In fact, against a large wave of them without support he would lose instantly, which is why I brought up the Heavens point. Ryo is not a superhuman just because he practices marital arts. Also like @spud1897 has said, his impulsive nature hinders his ability to truly grow and become a better martial artist. So given what has currently happened within the story and Ryo's flaws, his progress has been consistent.

 

[Wolfghosts]

This will be my last post on this topic. Your argument basically boils down to "If Ryo has the skill to defeat high level warriors, why does he lose to a bunch of low level thugs?" My entire point has been that throughout the story Ryo has struggled with delinquents as often as he has triumphed over them. In fact, against a large wave of them without support, he would lose instantly, which is why I brought up the Heavens point. Ryo is not a superhuman just because he practices marital arts. Also like @spud1897 has said, his impulsive nature hinders his ability to truly grow and become a better martial artist. So given what has currently happened within the story and Ryo's flaws, his progress has been consistent.

That actually wasn't my point at all, and I feel I've elaborated it clearly that my issue is the ways in which the series flip flops on his abilities. There's no basis to say that anyone he fought in numbers in China are any better than the multitude of thugs he fought before leaving Japan.

Also Ryo isn't really losing to those thugs anyway, in the cut scenes he usually demolishes the lower thugs then he keeps meeting some massive person and needs to find the ultra super secret move which so far has been, side step and hit them what now 3 times? It's a tired technique at this point, along with the 8000 masters he meets that he can't hit, and my frustration was that even when you win those fights, you lose because Ryo hasn't lightly brushed them with the back attack of plot convenience.

 

[Suzaku]

But a lot of those enemies are low level fighters, using sluggish brawling techniques aka moves where they telegraph to their opponent what they're going to do before they do them. In S3, theres a QTE where Ryo is basically toying with one of the Red Snakes who's attacking the(the QTE where you gotta make sure the thug doesn't crash into the vendors stand). He's brushing off his attacks in that comedic/cool Jet Li "this conflict doesn't even require me to get into a fighting stance" way. Then when Ryo fights him again, this time alongside his boss at the diner, he gets the same "this finna be a breeze" treatment. His boss doesn't fare much better as Ryo handles him with cocky effortless parrys and punches after trying to attack him with a bottle.


Yes, Ryo is in another country but that doesn't necessarily mean foreign country=your common street thug is an excellent martial artist. Ryo has fought enough experienced fighters to know that most of the victories weren't flukes and that hes fighting at a high enough level that shouldn't allow him to get washed as easily as he does in the third game.


Maybe it's just how the characters are actually presented(clumsy, somewhat cowardly and incompetent with exaggerated physical animations including poor fighting techniques during cutscenes), but these dudes shouldn't be giving Ryo this much trouble.

Also, Kazuma fights regular street thugs for the most part(either low level Yakuza or street punks on the level of Enoki and Goro).

in fact Ryo can still toy with some thugs on 1 VS 1 in Shenmue 3 (he can also finally defeat Chai without much problems, wo he has grown), but you can't expect him to take on an entire gang alone, (when this happen, Ryo has always the help of Guizhang in S1 or Ren in S3 and S3), he is not a superhuman like Kiryu who can also dodge missiles...

The series right now shows that Ryo can handle max 5 people alone, as long as they are random street thugs of course and not martial art masters.

Ryo lose in S3 versus Yanlang and Ge, and those two aren't your average street thugs, they probably are just as strong as Dou Niu in Shenmue 2 (remember that even Dou Niu is barely defeated thanks to the counter elbow assault, still Dou Niu had the edge).
Ryo lose also vs masters, just like with Xiuying.

I think the game is pretty consistent depicting Ryo and other characters martial abilities.

 

[Suzaku]

and my frustration was that even when you win those fights, you lose because Ryo hasn't lightly brushed them with the back attack of plot convenience.

In fact you (player) can't win these fights, the fights finish with bosses lifebars still green for a reason.

I think the plot device of Ryo learning a special move to deal with a specific enemy, is the only way to mantain a certan level of reality.
The other way would be to have the "dragon ball effect" like in Yakuza, with Kiryu that hear some advices from Komaki for two minutes and becomes the stronger man on earth...lol.

Ryo will not become a master at the level of Xiuying (let alone Lan Di) even at the end of the series, unless his voyage will last 10 years...
He can only count on great masters teachings, his natural talent and a lot of luck, so he will continue to fight like now.
Even when he wins with some lucky hit, enemies will remains stronger than him.

 

[Wolfghosts]

in fact Ryo can still toy with some thugs on 1 VS 1 in Shenmue 3 (he can also finally defeat Chai without much problems, wo he has grown), but you can't expect him to take on an entire gang alone, (when this happen, Ryo has always the help of Guizhang in S1 or Ren in S3 and S3), he is not a superhuman like Kiryu who can also dodge missiles...

The series right now shows that Ryo can handle max 5 people alone, as long as they are random street thugs of course and not martial art masters.

Ryo lose in S3 versus Yanlang and Ge, and those two aren't your average street thugs, they probably are just as strong as Dou Niu in Shenmue 2 (remember that even Dou Niu is barely defeated thanks to the counter elbow assault, still Dou Niu had the edge).
Ryo lose also vs masters, just like with Xiuying.

I think the game is pretty consistent depicting Ryo and other characters martial abilities.

It wasn't so much that Ryo loses to the masters but that he can't even lay a hit on them and they just block or dodge everything without being phased in the slightest, and that I don't enjoy the game letting you win fights only to have the cut scenes have Ryo lose and you most certainly can finish the first boss off before the cutscene, I'll need to check again on the Red Snakes boss but I could have sworn I took that out too (Elbow Assault and Tornado Kick maxed really carry the whole game. )

Also I don't know about the strength of Yanlang/Ge vs Dou Niu, Dou Niu is 7ft 2 (220cm) and just under 400 lbs (180kg) he's definitely able to crush someone like Ren or Ryo where the other 2 are not that much taller than Ryo and we can estimate are probably around 1ft shorter than Dou Niu and at least 100 lbs lighter (unless their profiles list that info anywhere?) which while still monsters theres just a distinct difference in the raw strength the three probably have.

 

[Kyo_JP]

I can't believe that after Mario defeated Bowser and rescue Peach he can be defeated by the a Goomba in the subsquent games. He is the best worst plumber jumper in history.

 

[Wolfghosts]

I can't believe that after Mario defeated Bowser and rescue Peach he can be defeated by the a Goomba in the subsquent games. He is the best worst plumber jumper in history.

Well the fact that Mario dies the second anything touches him unless he's high out of his mind on mushrooms or wearing his fursuit in public (gross) is a little bit different than measuring martial ability in a game that leans towards the more realistic side lol.

 

[spud1897]

It wasn't so much that Ryo loses to the masters but that he can't even lay a hit on them and they just block or dodge everything without being phased in the slightest, and that I don't enjoy the game letting you win fights only to have the cut scenes have Ryo lose and you most certainly can finish the first boss off before the cutscene, I'll need to check again on the Red Snakes boss but I could have sworn I took that out too (Elbow Assault and Tornado Kick maxed really carry the whole game. )

Also I don't know about the strength of Yanlang/Ge vs Dou Niu, Dou Niu is 7ft 2 (220cm) and just under 400 lbs (180kg) he's definitely able to crush someone like Ren or Ryo where the other 2 are not that much taller than Ryo and we can estimate are probably around 1ft shorter than Dou Niu and at least 100 lbs lighter (unless their profiles list that info anywhere?) which while still monsters theres just a distinct difference in the raw strength the three probably have.

I'd have to check Shenmue II again but I'm pretty sure Xiuying comments that Ryo's moves lack refinement (could be inferred as predictable) hence why he can't touch them. Sun even says that Ryo is too slow in his movements, which gives the opposing fighter time to react in reality.

 

[Wolfghosts]

I'd have to check Shenmue II again but I'm pretty sure Xiuying comments that Ryo's moves lack refinement (could be inferred as predictable) hence why he can't touch them. Sun even says that Ryo is too slow in his movements, which gives the opposing fighter time to react in reality.

I rewatched the clips to checo and while it is true when she first meets Ryo, she says he is unrefined and exerts too much energy, stopping him with the pressure point move, but that is prior too all the lessons he's learned during his time in Wan Chai. When he leaves for Guilin she is more concerned with him striking out of anger and winding up like her brother and in my opinion has refined his abilities sufficiently that her concern is no longer for his life on general but in what he can become being consumed by hatred essentially no different than Lan Di. But that's my interpretation of the subtext, are there any interviews Yu has about the events of Shenmue II that might provide mpre insight?