Shenmue’s Relevance In Modern Times

I think it's more a case of Sega's classic 'fuck this popular franchise' bizarre decision making than anything to do with Tekken.

See also : Streets of Rage until very recently.
I hadn't even heard there was a new Streets of Rage coming out, from what little I've seen it looks like it'll be similar to Double Dragon Neon for 360 in that it doesn't look very good, hope I'm wrong. I see what you're saying about Sega, they do tend to pull the plug. My Tekken reference was mainly focused on how the first two Virtua Fighters were decent but Tekken always did it better and especially when Tekken 3 came out.
 
I hadn't even heard there was a new Streets of Rage coming out, from what little I've seen it looks like it'll be similar to Double Dragon Neon for 360 in that it doesn't look very good, hope I'm wrong. I see what you're saying about Sega, they do tend to pull the plug. My Tekken reference was mainly focused on how the first two Virtua Fighters were decent but Tekken always did it better and especially when Tekken 3 came out.

I'm not a huge fan of the artstyle, but watching some hands on gameplay makes it look very playable. It's got a killer soundtrack from some of Sega's best from back in the day too, Yuzo Koshiro and Motohiro Kawashima, along with Yoko Shimomura, Hideki Naganuma, and Keiji Yamagishi , so it's going to sound amazing for sure!

As for VF vs Tekken?

Ooh controversial lol

I think there's plenty of room for both franchises. I like the more down to earth designs of the VF cast, Tekken's got a bit too silly visually? Everyone's really over designed.

It's a shame as the competition between the two made them strive for better games. I'm glad Tekken has seemingly got it's mojo back but it pains me to see Virtua Fighter left on the sidelines for so long.

Just think a Virtua Fighter 6 with Yakuza and Shenmue bonus characters would be hype as fuck. Kiryu Vs Ryo? Majima vs Ren? Lan Di vs Lau Chan ?

Shut up and take my money Sega !
 
Shenmue is only going to be as relevant as a niche title can be. It's been established that it's never going to be a mainstream smash so people aren't going to be excited to talk about it in general. Sales for the rerelease were kinda meh. 3 did well enough but didn't crush it on sales. Like OP mentioned, Yakuza is what's people are gravitating towards. Even though there are wires l quite a few differences, gamers generally see yakuza as Shenmues younger, hotter sister

Shenmues legacy and reputation have already been established, regardless if some of the criticism is exaggerated.

The only way to make it more relevant is to completely change what makes shenmue shenmue and even then, what's gonna draw newer people to play 4 outside the fanbase when they barely wanna check for the first 3?
 
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Very trivial remark but maybe they should darken a slight bit the Ryo's jacket to make him more badass.

I don't know if it's a colour or cut issue but something looked off with the default outfit in Shenmue 3, at least from my own perception. In a way I can't explain, wearing the Kickstarter Exclusive jacket made the story somehow more engaging.
 
I think your view that most gamers lack knowledge and taste is a little elitist. Liking Shenmue doesn’t make us any better than anybody else and it’s perhaps this misguided viewpoint that makes others take joy in trashing the Shenmue series.

Video games have traditionally been seen as a form of escapism, allowing players to travel to new worlds and do things that are either impossible, unsafe or illegal in real life. In that sense, Shenmue has always gone against the grain.

As beautiful as the original Shenmue games were for their time, the world they depicted was one that was a true to life reflection of the world outside the player’s front door. Players didn’t fly around, shoot guns or travel into space, instead spending the bulk of the game walking around asking people the same questions over and over again and working a menial, repetitive job.

The game had elements from multiple genres, making it difficult to satisfy potential players who were used to being locked in to a single genre. For a player to enjoy all that Shenmue has to offer, they needed to like fighting games, adventure games and be open to the mundane tasks the game expected of players.

With all these things in mind, I don’t think it should come as a surprise that Shenmue failed to achieve commercial success. If I’d never played the game and somebody explained the gameplay loop to me, I probably wouldn’t be too excited about playing it either.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I think that you proved my point. Gamers simply don't have imagination or curiosity. They want to kill things.

I see nothing wrong with being an elitist. I would rather eat at a Michelin starred restaurant with a tasting menu than eat at McDonalds or an all you can eat buffet, if given the choice. While your average person would question why someone would want to eat somewhere that puts such small portions of food on your plate, I can appreciate that the bites are small because you are going to get 10-20 courses of dishes during your meal. Its a different kind of experience. That is not to say that I would never eat fast food or at a buffet, but I have the ability to appreciate something more refined.

Gamers simply can't imagine how we can enjoy a game in which you aren't shooting or cutting people up, and why you have to go to bed every night or complete jobs rather than loot and pillage. I'm speaking from a western perspective. It is ok to be elitist.
 
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I think that you proved my point. Gamers simply don't have imagination or curiosity. They want to kill things.

I see nothing wrong with being an elitist. I would rather eat at a Michelin starred restaurant with a tasting menu than eat at McDonalds or an all you can eat buffet, if given the choice. While your average person would question why someone would want to eat somewhere that puts such small portions of food on your plate, I can appreciate that the bites are small because you are going to get 10-20 courses of dishes during your meal. Its a different kind of experience. That is not to say that I would never eat fast food or at a buffet, but I have the ability to appreciate something more refined.

Gamers simply can't imagine how we can enjoy a game in which you aren't shooting or cutting people up, and why you have to go to bed every night or complete jobs rather than loot and pillage. I'm speaking from a western perspective. It is ok to be elitist.
There are plenty of great games that don’t revolve around killing things. Enjoying them (or any other game for that matter) isn’t dependent on curiosity or imagination.

The issue here is that you see Shenmue as a Michelin Star restaurant whilst most people don’t. If you take pleasure in thinking that you’re better than most people because you have mastered the art of imagination, that’s great for you, but it doesn’t make it true. Art is subjective and people like different things. I shouldn’t have to explain that to a grown man, but here we are.

Many people have no desire to go to bed at night and work random jobs in a video game because they have to do those things in their real lives. They don’t need curiosity or imagination to understand these things because they do them everyday. If you want to look down on these people, that’s your business, but don’t be surprised if/when Shenmue fans begin to get the reputation of being pretentious douchebags.
 
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I think that you proved my point. Gamers simply don't have imagination or curiosity. They want to kill things.

I see nothing wrong with being an elitist. I would rather eat at a Michelin starred restaurant with a tasting menu than eat at McDonalds or an all you can eat buffet, if given the choice. While your average person would question why someone would want to eat somewhere that puts such small portions of food on your plate, I can appreciate that the bites are small because you are going to get 10-20 courses of dishes during your meal. Its a different kind of experience. That is not to say that I would never eat fast food or at a buffet, but I have the ability to appreciate something more refined.

Gamers simply can't imagine how we can enjoy a game in which you aren't shooting or cutting people up, and why you have to go to bed every night or complete jobs rather than loot and pillage. I'm speaking from a western perspective. It is ok to be elitist.
I dont think not wanting to work a mandatory 9 to 5, have a curfew/bedtime is a sign of lacking imagination. It's just not their cup of tea. Like somebody else mentioned earlier, people play games to escape reality. I've heard several people say things like "why the hell would I get off work just to go home, turn on a game and go to work again?" As a gamer who prefers to kill and loot in games, I like the forklift job and most of the other day to day life stuff that comes with shenmue, but many others don't and I totally understand why. Not to mention, Ryo isnt the most interesting character in gaming in a world full of Trevor Phillips, Nathan Drakes, Solid Snakes, FemSheps and Arthur Morgans

And no matter the criticism newer games face, what they do, they do extremely well. Im mainly talking about the GTAs, CoDs, RDR, Yakuzas, Mario, God of wars, Last of Us, Uncharted.
 
I agree, Dehone. You and I have the ability to appreciate those games and Shenmue, but your average person doesn't have the ability to appreciate a game like Shenmue.
 
It's not just Shenmue that has declined, the market for more linear, story driven single player action/adventure games just isn't what it used to be.

Some of my favourite games from the last 10 years:

[...]
Now lets have a look at the games I did enjoy that were commercial successes:

Uncharted 4 / Lost Legacy - power of Sony marketing and Naughty Dog wizardry
God of War - Sony marketing and cutting edge graphics
Horizon Zero Dawn - Sony marketing and cutting edge graphics
Yakuza Zero - A game than let new players in by being a prequel and having 5 sequels to build off
Resident Evil 2 Remake - It's Resident Evil 2 with cutting edge graphics

I think this is the key. Shenmue I & II, by design, are not the kind of games that are appreciated by the big mass of the public. And that's fine, it also happens in literature, music and other mediums. It also doesn't mean the games aren't wonderful. We know they are.

The relevance the series gathered back then was because of cutting edge graphics, and being the flagship game of a platform holder (the Dreamcast). In some way it was a commercial misfire by Sega, like if Disney+ had launched with some mute conceptual art movie as its flagship content :D.
 
The only thing needed to make the game relevant is being great (like really great in a competitive market).
It's a competitive market, there are many games that manage to break spectations by being awesome.
Just look at Nier Automata, sold pretty damn well, the game looks like it could be on ps3, but the gameplay is compelling and the story is amazing.
Disco Elysium gained some notoriety mostly because it's writing (and game mechanic that foments creative writing).
Life is Strange 1 had a decent playerbase, LiS 2 sucked and it quickly faded away.
Deadly premonition was broken as broken games come, but pulled through with an awesome story and writing.
The only thing that really bothered me in S3 was the writing and plot, the gameplay was very serviceable for me (depleting stamina sucked tho).
If S4 manages to tell a good story, it'll be relevant, or at least as relevant as storydriven games come.
 
100 % with Shredingskin this. S3 was a good game or an OK game, not a great game.

Yu making mobile games for 10 years since leaving Sega and before starting S3 sure as heck didn't improve his skills as a game director. To put it in soccer terms, if you want to play Champions League, playing in third division for a couple of years won't help.

I hope Yu gets the chance to work on S4 asap. You can literally feel that there is a genius who kind of lost his mojo behind S3. With his newly-gained understanding of Unreal 4, he may just be able to create another masterpiece.
 
I don’t think he chose to leave the industry for ten years. It’s really hard to get back into the business, particularly the business of making big budget Japanese console games when the Japanese market is moving further and further away from consoles. Look at where some of his fellow Sega alum are. That’s right, nowhere. I think a seasoned assistant director or producer like a Swery could’ve helped, but I understand Yu Suzuki is reluctant to cede control.
 
oh, absolutely agree with you there. We should be grateful to have Yu back in the real game. I hope he‘s come back to stay.
 
I'm not sure Suzuki did lose his 'mojo' since he early complained about over-managing the team rather than straightly direct the game.

It's hard to believe the guy who moaned so much in the NHK's Making of Shenmue is the same who validated such weird decisions like the loading transitions of Niaowu.

When Suzuki is too busy, he's the kind of person to easily give up. Remember the cave dagger which became a sword in Shenmue II because the 3D artist did not follow his instructions. (And now it's a dagger again!).

I do think his lack of modern knowledge prevent him from designing the right game for the resources he had but I want to believe the person is still as strict and imaginative as before.

All his original ideas for Shenmue III sounded great. The inward/outward concept and its subsystems were exactly what Bailu Village needed. The application was just either bad, incomplete or non-existing.
 
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I hope when Shenmue series is all completed and done...he gives us a few more new IPs. I wanna see what he can do with VR's and modern touch/motion tech since these are still lacking a definitive pioneerer to spearhead the tech & open the floodgates of software creativity like his trailblazing career into the 3D era...
 
I think it's more a case of Sega's classic 'fuck this popular franchise' bizarre decision making than anything to do with Tekken.

See also : Streets of Rage until very recently.

It's a little more than just that. It still has an active scene in Japan, albeit a MUCH smaller one...but Tekken dominates Asia as a whole.

SEGA also did themselves a bit of a disservice I think. Everytime I go to Japan, the only time I ever see a VF5 machine is in a Club Sega outlet. Yet nearly every arcade I go into at least has a row of Tekken 7 machines that is usually pretty populated. Can't say the same for VF5 machines whenever I go to a Club Sega.

Look at how many pro players there are for Tekken that come from Korea? The problem with VF is that the community just isn't there to keep it afloat. They've tried bringing it back to EVO, but the numbers for Tekken outperform it year after year. And considering most fighting game franchises are niche as shit nowadays (outside of your big casual hitters like MK or Street Fighter)...I guess SEGA just doesn't see the point of trying to re-enter that market.

It really boils down to the fact that Tekken did kind of actively take over the scene. VF may have its following in Japan, but it never really caught on as much in the rest of the world. And as such, in the pro scene, it's really not as well regarded as Tekken is in terms of numbers of people playing.

Consider the heyday of VF and Tekken. How many people played Tekken 3 on the PSone? Now compare that with how many people played VF2 on the Saturn?

Nostalgia plays a big part into it and for a large chunk of the community they grew up with Tekken. It's got a bigger reach and a more active scene while VF has its small niche following that love it dearly, but is it really worth it to SEGA to invest in VF6 in effort to try and revive the scene? (in their mind)

I still think VF6 will happen at some point. Street Fighter IV happened. Shenmue III happened...I'm not giving up entirely on VF6...but I truly think the reason is simply that the VF scene just isn't where it needs to be in order for SEGA to commit.
 
The only thing needed to make the game relevant is being great (like really great in a competitive market).
It's a competitive market, there are many games that manage to break spectations by being awesome.
Just look at Nier Automata, sold pretty damn well, the game looks like it could be on ps3, but the gameplay is compelling and the story is amazing.
Disco Elysium gained some notoriety mostly because it's writing (and game mechanic that foments creative writing).
Life is Strange 1 had a decent playerbase, LiS 2 sucked and it quickly faded away.
Deadly premonition was broken as broken games come, but pulled through with an awesome story and writing.
The only thing that really bothered me in S3 was the writing and plot, the gameplay was very serviceable for me (depleting stamina sucked tho).
If S4 manages to tell a good story, it'll be relevant, or at least as relevant as storydriven games come.




This.

Some people in here are acting as if Shenmue III was a unique case of a niche title and that a niche title can never break through.

There's a lot of niche titles with weak visuals that manage to pull through. Why ? Because they focus on strong aspects.

Nier Automata is a technically weak game with amazing gameplay, an amazing character cast, story, score and narration.

There's a lot of low budget or """higher budget"""" visual novel titles that manage to be amazing.

You dont need a huge budget to make a great game. You need a huge budget to make a polished game.

Shenmue III's issue is that it's not great. It's that they decided to focus on gameplay mechanics that are neither new nor interesting.

It just feels like a game that tries to do a formula from the two previous games on a tighter budget at the expense of all the elements that made those games special.

Shenmue is an adventure game with light life sim elements. While III manages it for the light life sim elements, it just sucks at the adventure and what it encompass.
 
It's a little more than just that. It still has an active scene in Japan, albeit a MUCH smaller one...but Tekken dominates Asia as a whole.

SEGA also did themselves a bit of a disservice I think. Everytime I go to Japan, the only time I ever see a VF5 machine is in a Club Sega outlet. Yet nearly every arcade I go into at least has a row of Tekken 7 machines that is usually pretty populated. Can't say the same for VF5 machines whenever I go to a Club Sega.

Look at how many pro players there are for Tekken that come from Korea? The problem with VF is that the community just isn't there to keep it afloat. They've tried bringing it back to EVO, but the numbers for Tekken outperform it year after year. And considering most fighting game franchises are niche as shit nowadays (outside of your big casual hitters like MK or Street Fighter)...I guess SEGA just doesn't see the point of trying to re-enter that market.

It really boils down to the fact that Tekken did kind of actively take over the scene. VF may have its following in Japan, but it never really caught on as much in the rest of the world. And as such, in the pro scene, it's really not as well regarded as Tekken is in terms of numbers of people playing.

Consider the heyday of VF and Tekken. How many people played Tekken 3 on the PSone? Now compare that with how many people played VF2 on the Saturn?

Nostalgia plays a big part into it and for a large chunk of the community they grew up with Tekken. It's got a bigger reach and a more active scene while VF has its small niche following that love it dearly, but is it really worth it to SEGA to invest in VF6 in effort to try and revive the scene? (in their mind)

I still think VF6 will happen at some point. Street Fighter IV happened. Shenmue III happened...I'm not giving up entirely on VF6...but I truly think the reason is simply that the VF scene just isn't where it needs to be in order for SEGA to commit.

Tekken has been able to remain relevant because of consistent releases as well. We got tekken tag tournament 2 in between 6 and 7. VF hasnt seen a release in a decade, which was just an update of a version released 15 years ago. Kids who grew up with ps4 or XB1 as their first consoles or even ps3 and 360 likely dont know anything about virtua fighter because by then it was no longer being discussed like that and wasn't a system seller.

I think street fighter was able to hold on for the same reason. Thanks to quality crossover games like MvC and CvS2, the franchise was kept relevant without having to release main entry games
 
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I think that you proved my point. Gamers simply don't have imagination or curiosity. They want to kill things.

I see nothing wrong with being an elitist. I would rather eat at a Michelin starred restaurant with a tasting menu than eat at McDonalds or an all you can eat buffet, if given the choice. While your average person would question why someone would want to eat somewhere that puts such small portions of food on your plate, I can appreciate that the bites are small because you are going to get 10-20 courses of dishes during your meal. Its a different kind of experience. That is not to say that I would never eat fast food or at a buffet, but I have the ability to appreciate something more refined.

Gamers simply can't imagine how we can enjoy a game in which you aren't shooting or cutting people up, and why you have to go to bed every night or complete jobs rather than loot and pillage. I'm speaking from a western perspective. It is ok to be elitist.
That is one of the most elitist comment I read and it actually damages Shenmue. If a non fan heard/read a comment like that you will only encourage him to hate the series without even giving it a chance to play it.

Beside generalizations are awful and should be avoided and more in gaming which is one extreme diverse media. We have plenty of genres like racing, puzzles, roleplaying that do not involve violence for resolving conflicts (like Disco Elysium), city builders that the appeal and loop is not around violence.
That generalization is like all people that read books are dumb and not have an imagination just because you focused on one really specific genre that you do not enjoy.

And in media yes elitism polarizes views and can damage newcomers.
 
Shenmue III's issue is that it's not great. It's that they decided to focus on gameplay mechanics that are neither new nor interesting.

It's funny though, because for years after I had played the original Shenmue games, everyone I had tried to get into those games would say to me "it's not that great." and so here we are, 20 years later, and some people think the same about the third installment.
 
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