Shenmue IV Will Happen - Here's Why!

[Hermit]

Sega are a pain in the ass, always have been. They miss so many opportunities, and when they finally see it, it's too late. They jump on trends way too late. Open world Phantasy Star Online, hero shooter Hyenas, buying Angry Birds! They always seem to be a decade late to the party these days.

Single player story driven games have been massive hits for 10 years now, and Sega have wasted a golden opportunity to make Shenmue that game for them.

I get it, Sega aren't the big name they used to be, something that is all of their own making, but they are sitting on a gold mine. They don't treat their ip's with the respect they deserve. They couldn't even be bothered to make Streets of Rage 4 themselves, they gave it to Dotemu, Lizardcube and Guard Crash. It was a hit, selling over 2.5m copies as of 2021 with the game being a day 1 release on game pass. Those studios must have been laughing at Sega all of the way to the bank when they were given that opportunity. I don't know how management at Sega can look at that and not be furious with themselves.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

Sega are a pain in the ass, always have been. They miss so many opportunities, and when they finally see it, it's too late. They jump on trends way too late. Open world Phantasy Star Online, hero shooter Hyenas, buying Angry Birds! They always seem to be a decade late to the party these days.

Single player story driven games have been massive hits for 10 years now, and Sega have wasted a golden opportunity to make Shenmue that game for them.

I get it, Sega aren't the big name they used to be, something that is all of their own making, but they are sitting on a gold mine. They don't treat their ip's with the respect they deserve. They couldn't even be bothered to make Streets of Rage 4 themselves, they gave it to Dotemu, Lizardcube and Guard Crash. It was a hit, selling over 2.5m copies as of 2021 with the game being a day 1 release on game pass. Those studios must have been laughing at Sega all of the way to the bank when they were given that opportunity. I don't know how management at Sega can look at that and not be furious with themselves.

Yeah i agree they make no sense

 

[Zoyous]

I don't like the Sega bashing. If not for Sega, there would be no Shenmue, first of all. Seems like a lot of people are down on Sega, but the sad truth is that Yu Suzuki wasn't scoping the project in a way where it would arrive at a finished product that could ever be released.

Nagoshi had to be put in a position to say we need to do this, that, and the other to complete the game and release it. For any creative visionary to succeed in the world of business, there has to be someone who is providing them with hard limits to work within.

Sega went to the absolute brink and would no longer be in business if they hadn't been bailed out by their former CEO's personal contribution of funds.

And I don't necessarily agree with this, but many of their designers from the Dreamcast era like Phoenix Rie and the designer of Crazy Taxi have expressed the feeling that they let Sega down by not focusing more on what would actually sell well in the console marketplace of that era. So, Sega has a proven track record of going to the mat on behalf of artistic vision and creativity, more than any other major game company.

 

[thedemon1238]

Do you really think Shenmue should have a full Virtua Fighter game you could play? Wouldn’t that be a little too on the nose? I don’t think an arcade game within the game world should have a better fighting system than the game itself. Even S1-2 had a watered down VF fighting system, why have a superior system in an arcade game?

That's not a problem with Yakuza/Judgment games. Why should it be a problem with Shenmue? :)

 

[Hermit]

I don't like the Sega bashing. If not for Sega, there would be no Shenmue, first of all. Seems like a lot of people are down on Sega, but the sad truth is that Yu Suzuki wasn't scoping the project in a way where it would arrive at a finished product that could ever be released.

My problems with Sega goes beyond how they handled the Shenmue ip though. It extends to Sega as a whole.

They mismanage everything. Look at Sonic, one of the faces of gaming, there is barely a single person on the planet that wouldn't recognise him, but Sega have been all over the place with the series. Frontiers is considered a success, but it's by Sega's standards. By AAA gaming standards, it's performance is no more than decent. If this was Square Enix, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Ubisoft, EA, Capcom, they would demand 5m sales minimum from a Sonic game.

 

[SMDzero]

That's not a problem with Yakuza/Judgment games. Why should it be a problem with Shenmue? :)

Oh wow I didn’t know you could play legit VF in Shenmue. That said I’d still not want it in Shenmue. Shenmue is supposed
to be the VF world come to life so having the game would be too Meta. Besides the fighting system is supposed to be a main feature in Shenmue and shouldn’t be outshone by an arcade game.

 

[Sonoshee]

I don't like the Sega bashing.

Maybe if they weren't so daft these days it wouldn't come to that.
I mean, HYENAS was reportedly their biggest budget game yet, but they cancelled it right as it was near to launch. Madness. At that point, just release it, get some ROI, surely to God. $100 million WASTED. A fraction of that could have gone toward a new Shenmue game.

Let's be honest, the SEGA we knew and loved in the 80s/90s and early 2000s just doesn't exist anymore. They aren't as creative with their IPs. They throw out Yakuza after Yakuza and Sonic after Sonic. Any fan favourites like SOR4, Panzer Dragoon Remake, Shenmue 3 etc are all developed by third parties. All we have to thank them for really is licensing out the IPs in the first place.

Sega were renowned in the 90s for being exceptionally creative and their designers/developers have nothing to be sorry about. It was Sega's mismanagement that got them into the pickle that saw them out of the console market and playing it safe.

And don't even get me started on Nagoshi. He was given millions to get multiple Yakuza titles made while Suzuki, who made some of their most cherished titles, was pretty much left to rot in an advisory role after Shenmue II released. I'm glad he left, at least we're now able to see more of his work.

 

[SMDzero]

Maybe if they weren't so daft these days it wouldn't come to that.
I mean, HYENAS was reportedly their biggest budget game yet, but they cancelled it right as it was near to launch. Madness. At that point, just release it, get some ROI, surely to God. $100 million WASTED. A fraction of that could have gone toward a new Shenmue game.

Let's be honest, the SEGA we knew and loved in the 80s/90s and early 2000s just doesn't exist anymore. They aren't as creative with their IPs. They throw out Yakuza after Yakuza and Sonic after Sonic. Any fan favourites like SOR4, Panzer Dragoon Remake, Shenmue 3 etc are all developed by third parties. All we have to thank them for really is licensing out the IPs in the first place.

Sega were renowned in the 90s for being exceptionally creative and their designers/developers have nothing to be sorry about. It was Sega's mismanagement that got them into the pickle that saw them out of the console market and playing it safe.

And don't even get me started on Nagoshi. He was given millions to get multiple Yakuza titles made while Suzuki, who made some of their most cherished titles, was pretty much left to rot in an advisory role after Shenmue II released. I'm glad he left, at least we're now able to see more of his work.

THIS.

I wish Microsoft would use their cash reserves for a hostile takeover of Sega. Phil Spencer could then fire all Segas upper management re-hire Suzuki as the head of AM2, cancel all Yakuza projects and re-direct all funds to completing Shenmue.

 

[Sonoshee]

THIS.

I wish Microsoft would use their cash reserves for a hostile takeover of Sega. Phil Spencer could then fire all Segas upper management re-hire Suzuki as the head of AM2, cancel all Yakuza projects and re-direct all funds to completing Shenmue.

Lol. I like your optimism. I think SEGA would be even worse under Microsoft.
They'd fire half the staff and have the other half working on the same tired IP for over a decade (looking at you Rare)

 

[Seaman]

I don't like the Sega bashing.

But, Sega Get Bash/Sega Bash Fishing

 

[Yokosuka]

Considering how solid Shenmue 3 is as a game with modest budget, I do believe that Sega made a mistake.

Shenmue 3 could have been fairly profitable for them. Cases of Nier and Persona are some proof that pop shifts are possible. And the aura surrounding Shenmue over the last decade has grown extraordinary (at least in Europe).

Retrospectively, I don't understand why Sega didn't back Suzuki up after all these years. The man was clearly ready to scale down his projects even if it meant to turn Shenmue into some kind of interactive movies with low gameplay value.

A true mystery.

 

[Hermit]

Any fan favourites like SOR4, Panzer Dragoon Remake, Shenmue 3 etc are all developed by third parties. All we have to thank them for really is licensing out the IPs in the first place.

Even the re-release of Shenmue 1 and 2 was developed by D3T. They are clearly a skilled group of devs, but they are a small team, and Shenmue's code is well known for being a pain to work with. Before this, Sega gave them the job to remake or remaster Shenmue 1 & 2, before cancelling it on them and moving them on to the re-release of Shenmue 1 and 2.

Some will say it's good of Sega to allow third parties to bring some life back to their old ip's, but I just think they want all of the money without putting in the work themselves.

 

[thedemon1238]

Oh wow I didn’t know you could play legit VF in Shenmue. That said I’d still not want it in Shenmue. Shenmue is supposed
to be the VF world come to life so having the game would be too Meta. Besides the fighting system is supposed to be a main feature in Shenmue and shouldn’t be outshone by an arcade game.

You'd be surprised how few people play the Yakuza/Judgment arcade games. :)

When I played Lost Judgment recently, I've noticed the following. The achievement for playing every single arcade game (one time only) was unlocked by only 2.27% percent of people who played the game. 30% have completed the game. Nobody cares about VF5, Sonic Fighters, Fighting Vipers , super hang on and the rest.... Lost judgment even has around 10 Master System games.

I don't think Shenmue 4 needs arcade games at all. They need to continue with the mechanical games, finish the unfinished mini games.... Like the remote control cart race....Return the darts and the pachinko too. Edit: I mean slots, not pachinko.

After getting used to Yakuza 7's turn based combat system, I had a huge problem with the battles in Lost Judgment. The fighting system was literally unbearable for me. It's clear that the combat in Shenmue 3 and the Yakuza games isn't the pinnacle of combat systems, let's say they just work. My point is that no one is comparing VF5 in thе Kamurocho arcades to the mediocre combat in the Yakuza games.

I think in general Sammy won't be selling the SEGA and Atlus IPs anytime soon. I don't think SEGA studios from before 2004 still exist. They were consolidated several times.

It is very difficult for an American company to buy a Japanese one. If it took 2 years for Microsoft to buy Activision, it will probably take 10 years to buy out Sammy. Japan have several restrictions for the american companies aggression. Also, Microsoft doesn't buy IPs, they buy only working and successful development studios. Sammy doesn't have studios that Microsoft needs. Even if they buy the rights to Shinobi, Shenmue, Shining Force, Nights and SEGA Rally from Sammy, they won't know what to do with them.

Maybe it's for the best for the old SEGA games to stick with Sammy and hope for a miracle in the future. I personally don't see a suitable buyer for the SEGA series that have been declared unprofitable.

 

[Zoyous]

Some will say it's good of Sega to allow third parties to bring some life back to their old ip's, but I just think they want all of the money without putting in the work themselves.

I'd be one of those people. It is a good idea to hand off those old IPs to designers who are passionate about them. It's really a consequence of Sega's spirit of creative freedom (whether or not you think that still exists at 2023 Sega) that their designers did not want to keep repeating themselves with endless iterations of the same IPs over and over.

...and that's if those same designers are still even there anymore. Being a fan of a company is like being a fan of a sports team... after a while, the people who lit the fire of your fandom have moved on and you're rooting for the uniforms, basically.

 

[Zoyous]

And don't even get me started on Nagoshi. He was given millions to get multiple Yakuza titles made while Suzuki, who made some of their most cherished titles, was pretty much left to rot in an advisory role after Shenmue II released. I'm glad he left, at least we're now able to see more of his work.

What are you going to get started about? The fact that he can budget and scope games to bring them to completion on time and make them profitable? So it's somehow unfair that he got to keep doing that?

 

[Sonoshee]

What are you going to get started about? The fact that he can budget and scope games to bring them to completion on time and make them profitable? So it's somehow unfair that he got to keep doing that?

Yu Suzuki's only fault is that he's ambitious. I never said it was a bad thing that someone was there to keep Suzuki on course.

And your comment about profitability is laughable. Is it fair that Yu gets pushed to one side just because Shenmue didn't have the chance of a bigger audience outside of the Dreamcast? Remember, Yakuza did have that going for it, on the Playstation no less.

I have nothing against Nagoshi on a personal level, the guy created Daytona after all. My issue is more with how he was given free reign to create what he wanted with financial backing. Yu got that shot once with Shenmue, but it wasn't his fault that the install base wasn't there to re-coup the costs.

 

[SMDzero]

Lol. I like your optimism. I think SEGA would be even worse under Microsoft.
They'd fire half the staff and have the other half working on the same tired IP for over a decade (looking at you Rare)

You'd be surprised how few people play the Yakuza/Judgment arcade games. :)

When I played Lost Judgment recently, I've noticed the following. The achievement for playing every single arcade game (one time only) was unlocked by only 2.27% percent of people who played the game. 30% have completed the game. Nobody cares about VF5, Sonic Fighters, Fighting Vipers , super hang on and the rest.... Lost judgment even has around 10 Master System games.

I don't think Shenmue 4 needs arcade games at all. They need to continue with the mechanical games, finish the unfinished mini games.... Like the remote control cart race....Return the darts and the pachinko too. Edit: I mean slots, not pachinko.

After getting used to Yakuza 7's turn based combat system, I had a huge problem with the battles in Lost Judgment. The fighting system was literally unbearable for me. It's clear that the combat in Shenmue 3 and the Yakuza games isn't the pinnacle of combat systems, let's say they just work. My point is that no one is comparing VF5 in thе Kamurocho arcades to the mediocre combat in the Yakuza games.

I think in general Sammy won't be selling the SEGA and Atlus IPs anytime soon. I don't think SEGA studios from before 2004 still exist. They were consolidated several times.

It is very difficult for an American company to buy a Japanese one. If it took 2 years for Microsoft to buy Activision, it will probably take 10 years to buy out Sammy. Japan have several restrictions for the american companies aggression. Also, Microsoft doesn't buy IPs, they buy only working and successful development studios. Sammy doesn't have studios that Microsoft needs. Even if they buy the rights to Shinobi, Shenmue, Shining Force, Nights and SEGA Rally from Sammy, they won't know what to do with them.

Maybe it's for the best for the old SEGA games to stick with Sammy and hope for a miracle in the future. I personally don't see a suitable buyer for the SEGA series that have been declared unprofitable.

Microsoft has the funds to buy Sega outright including all their IPs. I know that Sega would never sell to Microsoft which is why I’m proposing a HOSTILE takeover.

All Microsoft has to do is buy up the unsold shares of Sega/Sammy until it becomes the majority shareholder.

Then Phil Spencer visits Sega Headquarters in Tokyo and takes the CEO Haruki Satomi by the collar and kicks him in the butt out the back door.

“Out you go! Come back when you know how to make good games.”

 

[Zoyous]

And your comment about profitability is laughable.

A bit harshly phrased! You are the one staffer here I've noticed who consistently crosses the line into being straight up rude to members. Why not take a break until you can discuss things in a more chill way.

Aside from that, I don't really disagree with most of your assessment. However, saying that Nagoshi was given free reign with financial backing? That's what Yu Suzuki was given with Shenmue, isn't it? It all ran into bad timing, though, with problems that began years earlier coming to a head in that era. It wasn't all his fault, but he didn't execute flawlessly, either. It's also not anything unusual in the professional world for somebody's shot to not pan out and then to not get another equivalent shot. Is it fair that he got pushed aside? First of all, some people never get a shot even if they deserve it. Yu Suzuki had a shot that nobody else got... except recently with this stupid Hyenas debacle. Nagoshi designed the Yakuza series to scale and build iteratively, and he threw in some mass appeal with cartoonish violence and titillation. And the timing and the platform were more favorable. It was a mixture of luck and good planning and execution.

Now Yu Suzuki's next opportunity is to scope it realistically based on how it can perform in the marketplace. It's a quiet, slow burning story. Compared to mainstream games, it's like an arthouse movie. It's got a loyal but relatively small fanbase. It's not realistic to expect a huge budget for that. I'm not sure what the problem is. I see a lot of really cool AA games these days that don't necessarily have mainstream-type stories. In some ways the opportunity has never been better to make a niche game that can be successful on its own terms.

 

[Hermit]

I'd be one of those people. It is a good idea to hand off those old IPs to designers who are passionate about them. It's really a consequence of Sega's spirit of creative freedom (whether or not you think that still exists at 2023 Sega) that their designers did not want to keep repeating themselves with endless iterations of the same IPs over and over.

...and that's if those same designers are still even there anymore. Being a fan of a company is like being a fan of a sports team... after a while, the people who lit the fire of your fandom have moved on and you're rooting for the uniforms, basically.

I don't believe Sega does this to give designers who are passionate a chance though, they do it because they are cheap and like to cut corners. If Sega were serious with the cancelled remake/remaster of Shenmue 1 and 2, they would have approached a bigger studio than D3T. Expecting a company like D3T to recreate the entirety of Shenmue 1 and 2 was stupid from Sega, they don't have the resources or experience for that kind of thing. What we ended up with with was the re-release of Shenmue 1 and 2, which aren't without their issues. The Playstation version had issues and the PC version was much worse. They never did fix the frame pacing issues on the pc version which is sadly one of the worst I have ever seen on a pc game.

If Sega were serious, they either would have handled it themselves, or given the task to a more experienced studio with the man power to pull it off.

 

[Sonoshee]

A bit harshly phrased! You are the one staffer here I've noticed who consistently crosses the line into being straight up rude to members. Why not take a break until you can discuss things in a more chill way.

How was that harshly phrased? If you're a bit touchy then I apologise.
If I feel like something is unjust then I'll call people on it.
I guess I just find it strange that you'll bash on Yu but defend Nagoshi, on a Shenmue forum no less.
I'm not out here abusing my power and banning people or threatening them for the sake of it.
And for taking a break... well, I don't really even post that often.

As for the rest of your post, I've already said what I needed to say about the whole thing. Let's leave it at that.

Some will say it's good of Sega to allow third parties to bring some life back to their old ip's, but I just think they want all of the money without putting in the work themselves.

Sadly that's SEGA these days. I don't think they even have the studios now to handle other IPs if they wanted to. There's RGG, Sonic Team and... AM2? Who don't even do much at all anymore. Even their arcade work is dormant recently. Sad times