SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[GhostTrick]

There's a difference, your consistent tone around here is as described when someone debates something with you and resort to it when someone makes a point that you don't really a leg to stand on.

Example. You said exact, I said nearly ( a little tongue in cheek admittedly). All the while you've been brandishing around the amateur remark which I asked you politely to drop. I'm then responded to with a remark that again is just a backhanded way of making your point, so yeah it's being a smart-ass but not in the funny sense.

So it's simple drop the attitude.

If I were to describe my tone here, it's veen pretty civil and considering the sometimes thrown at me. It's not about the tone really, it's about what's being said really. If I were to keep the same tone but to say something positive about Shenmue 3, the people complaining would be clapping and approving. So yeah, it's rather weird how that kind of attitude is fine in one side but not the other. Let's take the meme on the previous page: Reverse the text to make fun of the people liking that aspect of Shenmue III, the answer would be far different.

Yes, I said nearly, because you're ressorting on petty points like "but they dont have a torch anymore". Yeah, of course they don't. It doesn't change that they're still looking at each others the same way they did in the cave or in the Shenmue II ending artwork at the end.
The point being, while the scene changed, the characters feels like they didnt. Hence why it looks weird.

You’re right. Why on earth would two people who are having a conversation be facing one another? Shenhua should clearly be gazing out across the vista while Ryo takes a sneaky peek at her breasts.

So the best way to start the cutscene was an out of context end of conversation ?

You know I’d planned on just continuing to ignore your nonsense as I learned quite some time ago that trying to engage in reasoned conversation with you was a waste of time, but in the interest of saving the time of some of the other posters here who haven’t learned that lesson yet...

For somebody who seems to think of themselves as some sort of cinematography expert, your knowledge of modern day film-making techniques really does leave a lot to be desired.

The transition in the scene in question is what’s known as a match cut (a graphic match, if you want to be specific) and is an incredibly commonly used technique across pretty much all visual mediums.

You can argue all you like that it’s poorly executed or that a match cut wasn’t the best choice for this transition (personally, I think it worked quite nicely), but to suggest that it’s some bizarre editing blunder made by amateurs demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of what I’d consider to be very basic editing techniques.

And before you think about coming back with claims that you of course know what a match cut is, please save us all the time.

You see, it’s comments like this one...



... that give you away.

Match cuts can be used to transition between both short and long passages of time, but they are typically one of the go-to techniques when a filmmaker wants to jump many years ahead or backwards in time (as you can see here, here and here), so I’m not sure how you could possibly argue that the use of a match cut implies that only a few seconds have passed.

We don’t just use match cuts to transition between different periods of time either, with them often being used to take the viewer from one location to another without having to resort to fades and hard cuts - as we see in the opening moments of Shenmue 3.

And just in case you want to try and argue that match cuts are something that we only see in movies, here is a nice example of a match cut (albeit a slightly different type) from GTA IV, which I'm fairly certain was not directed by amateurs.

Rather than spending your time constantly trying to tear people down, perhaps consider taking a moment to educate yourself instead.

But you just said they were having a conversation. :)
About the match cuts: They're not either a tool to switch from another location without any context. In the exemple you gave with GTA4: It's meant to show a routine within different locations. In the context of each scene, the position of the character makes sense. That's the thing here: The position makes sense.

In the case of Shenmue 3 ? It doesn't. They just happen to be back in Bailu village and facing each others here without any context. And in the end, you just end up with a cutscene looking bad.

And that's what I'm arguing: That it's a bad choice and that it looks weird. You have multiple ways to take a scene. It's not because you use a technique that you used the right one. And using a wrong technique can also be amateurish, like the overuse of zoom on the face to make a character look scary.

As for tearing people down: I'm always doing it in response to someone else. If you feel like my tone was bad toward you, maybe because yours was first. It's like the way you start your sentence: I didn't engage with you and you start being antagonistic.

Why are you always moaning? Odd thing is i agree with alot of the points you raise, but man, the constant moaning, hand waving and snarky attitude is on another level. Just be cool man. You'll get along with alot more people that way.

Moaning ? About what ? I just expressed an opinion. Funnily you have no problem being antagonistic toward other users. "Just be cool" It's funny how you take that stance when people jump at me and trying to make me "calm down" when I was the calm person. It happened last time too when a guy got crazy and started to reply to me about stuff I wasn't even talking about, while I remained civil and you came on me to tell me to "calm down" while the other was being uncivil. Same happened too when another poster lost their nerves and started to insult me in their language. That hypocrisy is tiring, I have no lessons to receive on that matter. Either the rules applies to everyone or to no one. Now I completly expected to be actionned for this but at least I made myself clear.

 

[spud1897]

If I were to describe my tone here, it's veen pretty civil and considering the sometimes thrown at me. It's not about the tone really, it's about what's being said really. If I were to keep the same tone but to say something positive about Shenmue 3, the people complaining would be clapping and approving. So yeah, it's rather weird how that kind of attitude is fine in one side but not the other. Let's take the meme on the previous page: Reverse the text to make fun of the people liking that aspect of Shenmue III, the answer would be far different.

Yes, I said nearly, because you're ressorting on petty points like "but they dont have a torch anymore". Yeah, of course they don't. It doesn't change that they're still looking at each others the same way they did in the cave or in the Shenmue II ending artwork at the end.
The point being, while the scene changed, the characters feels like they didnt. Hence why it looks weird.





So the best way to start the cutscene was an out of context end of conversation ?





But you just said they were having a conversation. :)
About the match cuts: They're not either a tool to switch from another location without any context. In the exemple you gave with GTA4: It's meant to show a routine within different locations. In the context of each scene, the position of the character makes sense. That's the thing here: The position makes sense.

In the case of Shenmue 3 ? It doesn't. They just happen to be back in Bailu village and facing each others here without any context. And in the end, you just end up with a cutscene looking bad.

And that's what I'm arguing: That it's a bad choice and that it looks weird. You have multiple ways to take a scene. It's not because you use a technique that you used the right one. And using a wrong technique can also be amateurish, like the overuse of zoom on the face to make a character look scary.

As for tearing people down: I'm always doing it in response to someone else. If you feel like my tone was bad toward you, maybe because yours was first. It's like the way you start your sentence: I didn't engage with you and you start being antagonistic.





Moaning ? About what ? I just expressed an opinion. Funnily you have no problem being antagonistic toward other users. "Just be cool" It's funny how you take that stance when people jump at me and trying to make me "calm down" when I was the calm person. It happened last time too when a guy got crazy and started to reply to me about stuff I wasn't even talking about, while I remained civil and you came on me to tell me to "calm down" while the other was being uncivil. Same happened too when another poster lost their nerves and started to insult me in their language. That hypocrisy is tiring, I have no lessons to receive on that matter. Either the rules applies to everyone or to no one. Now I completly expected to be actionned for this but at least I made myself clear.

Let's stop trying to twist things into an I'm being silenced rhetoric because the staff here have, clearly, been understanding as to to both sides of any discussion and actioned things as they see appropriate.

It's all backhanded snide remarks if things start to break down/you're asked by me, politely, to drop something and it ends now.

 

[SMDzero]

Ryo and Shenhua were in the same position looking at each other because of fan service.

Like Ryo and Shenhua were in suspended animation looking at each other for 20 years and have now defrosted in front of Bailu Village.

 

[iknifaugood]

I know i sound ridiculous right now, but i have seen quite a few very over dramatic fans who criticise every single aspect of the game. I'm thinking there's no way you'll be able to enjoy the series no matter what happens from here on out.

I'm not necessarily referring to people on this forum. Its just something ive noticed over the years. Again, I'm behind the fan criticisms of Shenmue 3 even though i adore and enjoy the game. But there's definitely some Shenmue Karens out there. I call them Sharens

There's a tendency, which I referred to as the Plinkett effect, to dislike something so much that everything about it must be bad in some way, shape or form. S3 is uniquely positioned similar to Episode 1 in that a lot of time has passed since the beloved original installments and the original creative head, who had been given so much credit in the past, is still at the helm, so fans want to dissect what went wrong. Why does this installment not make me feel the way that the previous installment did? Is it just that I'm older now? I think SEPW covers a lot of interesting ground when discussing nostalgia in this and other videos.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

If the story had been awesome, I think quite a few of the "complainers" would've put their criticisms to the side. We were all expecting compromises. Obv. the nits would be picked anyway, but I believe it's undeniable that advancing the story, or deepening the characters, is what many of us expected out of Shenmue 3, at a bare minimum.

 

[bcdcdude]

Why do I get the feeling that if Shenmue IV were announced tomorrow, we would stop moaning about Shenmue III?

I get the feeling that some people are upset that Shenmue III blew its chance and to a degree, I get it, but it seems a fatalistic attitude. We helped bring back Shenmue from the dead and some people seem content to desecrate its corpse.

I actually can't wait to play Shenmue III again, because I'll take my time. First time around, it was a mixture of wanting to soak it all in, but also wanting to know what happens (not a lot as it turns out). I haven't even played the 2nd and 3rd DLC's due to the awful way it was implemented, but now I have something to look forward to.

And lets face it, how many times has something been shat on, only to be reappraised in the future and realise that it was misunderstood? I'm not saying Shenmue III will be like this, but it's not as if the game is Rise of the Robots or anything

 

[ShenSun]

There's a tendency, which I referred to as the Plinkett effect, to dislike something so much that everything about it must be bad in some way, shape or form. S3 is uniquely positioned similar to Episode 1 in that a lot of time has passed since the beloved original installments and the original creative head, who had been given so much credit in the past, is still at the helm, so fans want to dissect what went wrong. Why does this installment not make me feel the way that the previous installment did? Is it just that I'm older now? I think SEPW covers a lot of interesting ground when discussing nostalgia in this and other videos.

That's a very interesting, deep point you raise. I'll have to think that one over.

My first thoughts are, do you mean kinda like a cognitive or perceptive bias? For example, If i dislike something a lot, i'll then miss out on any good it had to offer and focus solely on the bad points or even magnify them?

Or if i'm playing something that is suppose to make me feel a certain way, like previous entries did, but it doesn't, it creates a dissonance inside. And that dissonance is resolved by focusing on any bad points the game had and using that to rationalize that lack of feeling?

I dunno if that came across clearly so i may have to re write that, but I've experienced something like this with Metal Gear Solid 2 when I was younger. If you ask me to rank the Metal Gear Series, MGS2 would be right at the bottom for me. i've always been curious about going back and replaying it again to see if my opinion has changed. I was so focused on the protagonist swap at the start of the game that I couldn't see any good in the rest of my playthrough. Objectively though, the game does do a lot right, even though it has its flaws.

Same thing happened to me with Resident Evil 4. I was so focused on it not being pure survival horror like the last 3 entries that it made me not appreciate what it was trying to do. Played it recently and really enjoyed it

Great message. I'll have to think it over more. We all know Shenmue 3 has its issues, but I think you're on to something and its a very nuance point of human behavior.

 

[ShenSun]

Moaning ? About what ? I just expressed an opinion. Funnily you have no problem being antagonistic toward other users. "Just be cool" It's funny how you take that stance when people jump at me and trying to make me "calm down" when I was the calm person. It happened last time too when a guy got crazy and started to reply to me about stuff I wasn't even talking about, while I remained civil and you came on me to tell me to "calm down" while the other was being uncivil. Same happened too when another poster lost their nerves and started to insult me in their language. That hypocrisy is tiring, I have no lessons to receive on that matter. Either the rules applies to everyone or to no one. Now I completly expected to be actionned for this but at least I made myself clear.

I'm not playing these little games with you. You know very well what you're doing right now. A lot of members have called you out for your constant hand waving and snarky nonsense. Rather than take responsibility when that happens and learn from it, you shift to being the victim who's being silenced and try to instigate such actions to prove your point.

Writing this message was probably a waste of time as I don't think you'd ever take responsibility, so do what you must, but i'll always be there to call out your nonsense

If the story had been awesome, I think quite a few of the "complainers" would've put their criticisms to the side. We were all expecting compromises. Obv. the nits would be picked anyway, but I believe it's undeniable that advancing the story, or deepening the characters, is what many of us expected out of Shenmue 3, at a bare minimum.

Nah, my point is this. Even if Shenmue 4 came out and fixed everything and was even better than the first two entries, I think there's a portion of the fanbase that will still dislike it and find fault with it. Happens in every medium though, so i guess it is what it is. I also think its trendy to complain & be over dramatic about everything these day, but that's a completely separate point to your message.

Why do I get the feeling that if Shenmue IV were announced tomorrow, we would stop moaning about Shenmue III?

I get the feeling that some people are upset that Shenmue III blew its chance and to a degree, I get it, but it seems a fatalistic attitude. We helped bring back Shenmue from the dead and some people seem content to desecrate its corpse.

I actually can't wait to play Shenmue III again, because I'll take my time. First time around, it was a mixture of wanting to soak it all in, but also wanting to know what happens (not a lot as it turns out). I haven't even played the 2nd and 3rd DLC's due to the awful way it was implemented, but now I have something to look forward to.

And lets face it, how many times has something been shat on, only to be reappraised in the future and realise that it was misunderstood? I'm not saying Shenmue III will be like this, but it's not as if the game is Rise of the Robots or anything

Very good points. And LOL, RIse of the Robots, god i remember that game.

 

[Godokunodan]

Again, I think you could make this argument of many of the events and elements that have taken place in the series so far. If Xiuying had shown up and given Ryo the pendant at the beginning of Shenmue 3 or had Ryo been given the poetry scroll by master Feng and told that it was one of his father's old possessions, would it really make a difference?

I certainly agree that these elements appear important, but until we reach the point in the story where they come into play, we really can't know for sure.

What if Xiuying giving the pendant to Ryo was simply a metaphor for her letting go of her brother and the guilt that she felt for not convincing him to stay? Him leaving as a child and her inability to convince him not to go is something that she's carried with her for her whole life. Ryo following the same path in spite of all of her warnings and training may have helped her to accept that sometimes, people's minds simply can't be changed and that there was nothing she could have said or done to have stopped her older brother from leaving all those years ago (especially considering that she was only a child at the time).

I really hope we meet Zimming and that the pendant has an impact on that situation, but there's no guarantee that either of these things are going to happen.

Conversely, we are given an amber pendant by Elder Yeh during Shenmue 3 and are also told by Shenhua that she had been given an amber pendant by her father when she was a child. How can you say with any surety that this pendant won't come into play somewhere later on in the story and that the pendant itself doesn't have some kind of connection to her powers?

Agreed, but I think this is emblematic of Ryo's inability to put his emotions aside and accept his own limitations as a martial artist. We see this at several points throughout the story - and that his first reaction after getting his ass kicked by Mr. Muscles mk.1 is to go straight back for a second round suggests that he still needs to learn the virtue of patience before he can progress as a martial artist.

I really don't subscribe to this idea that Yu saw Shenmue 3 as nothing more than a launchpad for Shenmue 4. Unless a deal was struck with Deep Silver to publish both Shenmue 3 and Shenmue 4 (which I suppose is possible, if not a little improbable), Yu had no reason not to put his all into Shenmue 3 and make it the best game he possibly could.

Its not, people are just impatient self entitled consumers that want 90 hours of story for $60. Not happening . in the PS5 generation the price of games will go up to $70 , so the bitching will continue and intensify. The sixteen chapters are already written, 25 years ago. This chapter focuses on Shenhua and her Dad, NOT Lan Di , get over it. Its obvious staging for Ryo to have a better life without revenge. Of course there will be a payoff at the end of the saga and Shenhua will stay Ryo's hand from delivering the killing blow on Lan Di.

If you don't get that, maybe you need more experience with screenplays and observing patterns in cinema. All of Shenmue has been a young-adult focused adventure , so it's extremely unlikely Ryo will actually kill Lan Di.


People including Supereyepatch wolf just want the chapter they wrote in their head.

 

[Godokunodan]

Props to Supereyepatch Wolf for mentioning the Guest Book in Niaowu Hotel . You can tell he actually paid attention when he played the game unlike most Shenmue3 critics.

 

[iknifaugood]

My first thoughts are, do you mean kinda like a cognitive or perceptive bias? For example, If i dislike something a lot, i'll then miss out on any good it had to offer and focus solely on the bad points or even magnify them?

Cognitive bias. In the case of the Plinkett reviews, it could be argued that Episode 1 "deserved" such scrutiny (to the extent that any piece of media can "deserve" that level of analysis) but people have a tendency to project that level of simultaneous attachment and vitriol onto everything they dislike. Furthermore, in the realm of video criticism, you have critics adopting Plinkett's extremely long-form approach but his Phantom Menace review was 70 minutes long (which itself is part of the joke); Mauler just released part 3 of his 6 part review of the Force Awakens at 4 hours long. And almost a million people have watched it.

I've experienced something like this with Metal Gear Solid 2 when I was younger. If you ask me to rank the Metal Gear Series, MGS2 would be right at the bottom for me. i've always been curious about going back and replaying it again to see if my opinion has changed. I was so focused on the protagonist swap at the start of the game that I couldn't see any good in the rest of my playthrough.

My respect and admiration for MGS2 was greatly enhanced after reading The New York Trilogy. Also Super Bunnyhop's Critical Close-Up:

MGS3 will always be my favorite but MGS2 will always have my respect. It'll be a long time till we see another big budget sequel take that many risks.

 

[WuyingRen]

About the match cuts: They're not either a tool to switch from another location without any context. In the exemple you gave with GTA4: It's meant to show a routine within different locations. In the context of each scene, the position of the character makes sense. That's the thing here: The position makes sense.

I love how you can go from knowing nothing about match cuts to suddenly being an expert who is qualified to express when and where they can be used over the course of a few hours. Thank the lord for Wikipedia, eh?

Given that GTA is a series defined by stealing cars and shooting people, I doubt very much that the developers wanted to emphasize the 'routine' of walking here, especially given that this sequence featured heavily in the game's marketing. If I had to guess, I'd say that the main reason that they opted to use movement matches here is simply that it looks cool - but it also has the added benefit of showing off a wide variety of the game's locations in a relatively short space of time. I suppose it's possible that Rockstar were trying to subtly condition the player into believing that walking around is better than committing crimes ahead of their 'E for everyone' re-brand, Grand Theft Walking, but I'd be pretty surprised if that were the case. I suppose only time will tell though!

In the case of Shenmue 3 ? It doesn't. They just happen to be back in Bailu village and facing each others here without any context. And in the end, you just end up with a cutscene looking bad.

You keep going on about this lack of context, but I'd suggest that the context is pretty simple to comprehend without them forcing it down the player's throat by showing it to them (which would defeat the purpose of any type of cut being used here). They were in the cave and then they left it. It's pretty simple. Unless you think that they did this in silence whilst starring awkwardly away from each other, I really don't see what the problem is. Most importantly, I think you're still struggling to wrap your head around match cuts. I had thought that the name of the cut might have made this pretty clear, but the aim of a match cut is to match the composition of the shot that you are cutting from in the shot that you are cutting to.

I'm generally curious what 'context' you think there is to be found in the GTA sequence that is lacking from the scene in Shenmue 3, although I suspect that the only real 'context' here is that Rockstar didn't sign an Epic exclusivity deal for GTA IV and Deep Silver did.

As for tearing people down: I'm always doing it in response to someone else. If you feel like my tone was bad toward you, maybe because yours was first. It's like the way you start your sentence: I didn't engage with you and you start being antagonistic.

Whilst it's true that the tone that you take with other forum users is often quite rude, I was actually referring to your constant criticism of the game's development team. Calling somebodies work amateurish because you don't understand it is as ignorant as it is disrespectful and I don't think it is at all appropriate, especially given that this is a forum that people working on the game might read from time to time. Perhaps if you were an expert with a proven track record of directing high quality games that are renowned for their cinematographic story-telling, you might be qualified to make these kinds of comments, but even then it would still be incredibly disrespectful.

As for me being 'antagonistic', all I did was challenge your opinion. Given that this is a public forum, I should be able to do that without you trying to play the victim card (as has happened on multiple occasions in this thread alone).

Given how many of your arguments seem to come from a place of ignorance, I would have thought that you would have gotten used to people challenging them by now, but if it really bothers you so much, I suggest making use of the sites 'ignore' function. Considering that this is a forum for people who love the Shenmue series though - you might find that you have to ignore quite a lot of the site's users - given that about 90% of your posts seem to be talking about how shit the series is and how incompetent the people who make it are.

 

[WuyingRen]

True, it’s not that the pendant is in an of itself important, more that if you were to summarize the entire Shenmue story, you wouldn’t be able to leave that out depending on how it’s used. Like if Ryo loses a fight to Ziming (keeping in his tradition of losing every major fight at least once) and Ziming only spares his life because of the pendant or something like that, you would need to know how Ryo obtained it.

Right; just like how if Ryo pulls out the cliff temple map or the Ema left behind by his father or makes reference to the information that we were given regarding Lan Di's upbringing, you would need to know how Ryo came to be in possession of these things.

Very true, which is why I don’t fault anyone for being pessimistic about the future of Shenmue’s storyline. I will say that it would be far more disappointing to lose Ziming (a character that has been introduced) rather than the four leaders, which only exist as a pre-production concept (cool though it may be).

I'm really hoping that Yu isn't forced to make major compromises to the story that he had originally planned, but I'm fairly certain that we'll still get some variation of the four leaders storyline. I think that Tentei and Zimming are somewhat essential to the game's narrative and so will almost certainly make an appearance, at which point, it would be fairly simple to make Zimming the third leader and shoehorn in a fourth somewhere near the game's climax. It's not ideal, but it's better than scrapping what sounds like a fairly interesting plot line all together.

I don’t mind it either. I like Shenmue primarily because of how grand it’s aspirations are, I like that it was shooting for the moon, trying to tell this epic story and I really like how S2 expanded the scope of the world. Ryo traveling across China, learning from different masters, following the footsteps of his father, discovering the mysteries of the mirrors and his destiny, that’s all good stuff that can distract from a simpler character. The problem is that S3 contains so little of the “epic” stuff and many people on these forums seem to think that S3 is some brilliant character study; in which case I think Ryo’s character is far too shallow to sustain that kind of narrative. If S3 was the story of Ryo’s personal growth then I didn’t see much growth take place.

I have no issues with them taking a more insular approach to the game's story and think that if done well, the lack of epic showpiece moments needn't have been a major issue. For this to work though, it felt like they really needed to focus more on Ryo's relationships with Ren, Shenhua and Iwao a lot more than they did.

For the most part, I think that Ryo's interactions with Shenhua worked quite well during the Bailu section of the game, but that they missed a trick by not exploring Shenhua's naivety once events had lead them to Niawou.

Having seemingly spent her whole life in a small village surrounded by people that she knows, I would've been interested to find out how the transition to a big town like Niaowu affected her and how she might adapt to her new surroundings. That she has never really been around people who might look to exploit her trust could have worked quite well for the purpose of introducing Niao-Sun's manipulative and exploitative nature (whilst she is disguised as Feng-Li), which in turn could have made the twist near the end a lot more impactful (although I still think that they needed to introduce Niao-Sun briefly somewhere earlier in the story for this to pay off).

As for the other two characters, Ren seems to have been used primarily for comic relief as opposed to a character with whom Ryo is beginning to develop a mutual respect and, although interesting if taken at face value, the information we were given regarding Iwao felt a little underwhelming as a result of how shallow it ended up being. I feel like we could have learned some things about Iwao as a person rather than simply some things that he did in the past.

Truthfully his argument gets kind of muddled for me at the end of the video, like he’s trying to lay the blame on Suzuki without actually saying it. Like is his point really that Suzuki is trying to reclaim his past glories by rebooting Shenmue for a new age? He’s arguing that Suzuki is stuck in the past but also that he changed Shenmue for the worse. Pick a lane.

Agreed. It felt like little more than an argument for why the series shouldn't/won't continue backed up by a series of conflicting ideas and incorrect facts.

 

[ShenSun]

Cognitive bias. In the case of the Plinkett reviews, it could be argued that Episode 1 "deserved" such scrutiny (to the extent that any piece of media can "deserve" that level of analysis) but people have a tendency to project that level of simultaneous attachment and vitriol onto everything they dislike. Furthermore, in the realm of video criticism, you have critics adopting Plinkett's extremely long-form approach but his Phantom Menace review was 70 minutes long (which itself is part of the joke); Mauler just released part 3 of his 6 part review of the Force Awakens at 4 hours long. And almost a million people have watched it.


My respect and admiration for MGS2 was greatly enhanced after reading The New York Trilogy. Also Super Bunnyhop's Critical Close-Up:

MGS3 will always be my favorite but MGS2 will always have my respect. It'll be a long time till we see another big budget sequel take that many risks.

Thanks man. I'm gonna check that video out during lunch.

It's a fascinating topic, especially when looking at it from the perspective of human behaviour and biases

MGS3 is definitely my personal favourite of the series. Loved it

 

[Sonoshee]

I'm gonna check that video out during lunch.

 

[ShenSun]

View attachment 8543

Haha. Poor mark. I would have jumped in after it :)

 

[Suzaku]

View attachment 8543

This topic is becoming one of the best shenmue-meme sources

 

[iknifaugood]

Right; just like how if Ryo pulls out the cliff temple map or the Ema left behind by his father or makes reference to the information that we were given regarding Lan Di's upbringing, you would need to know how Ryo came to be in possession of these things.

Not quite the same thing, hence why literally no one is theorizing about how any of those things will come back and basically everyone who played S2 came away with the impression that we'd meet Ziming. Remember, it's not just the pendant, we learn that Ziming wants revenge for his parents and abandoned Xiuying to find the CYM... we know (part of) his backstory. It's the difference between something being deliberately set up in the story (the mysterious scroll is also an example of this, but it's a missable item so likely not something related to the overall story) and a call back. There's nothing on the "map" that would be any use; we're told what all the images mean in S3; he has to go to the Cliff Temple next (and Niaowu for some bizarre reason) and the Dragon represents the emperor, the Phoenix the empress, and the treasure is the treasure hidden in their palace... what's left for it? Any further use it could possibly have would have to be a retcon, and that's not the same thing as setting the audience up for something.

I'm really hoping that Yu isn't forced to make major compromises to the story that he had originally planned, but I'm fairly certain that we'll still get some variation of the four leaders storyline. I think that Tentei and Zimming are somewhat essential to the game's narrative and so will almost certainly make an appearance, at which point, it would be fairly simple to make Zimming the third leader and shoehorn in a fourth somewhere near the game's climax. It's not ideal, but it's better than scrapping what sounds like a fairly interesting plot line all together.

Really woulda been nice to learn a bit more about the CYM in S3 eh? I hope nothing gets cut but I don't see how all the plot elements can be tied up without dramatically ramping up the pacing over the next 1-2 games (remember, we seem to be taking for granted that S5 is in the cards, Suzuki has said he wants to finish it in 4-5 games, which means this may all need to be crammed into S4).

I have no issues with them taking a more insular approach to the game's story and think that if done well, the lack of epic showpiece moments needn't have been a major issue. For this to work though, it felt like they really needed to focus more on Ryo's relationships with Ren, Shenhua and Iwao a lot more than they did.

For the most part, I think that Ryo's interactions with Shenhua worked quite well during the Bailu section of the game, but that they missed a trick by not exploring Shenhua's naivety once events had lead them to Niawou.

Having seemingly spent her whole life in a small village surrounded by people that she knows, I would've been interested to find out how the transition to a big town like Niaowu affected her and how she might adapt to her new surroundings. That she has never really been around people who might look to exploit her trust could have worked quite well for the purpose of introducing Niao-Sun's manipulative and exploitative nature (whilst she is disguised as Feng-Li), which in turn could have made the twist near the end a lot more impactful (although I still think that they needed to introduce Niao-Sun briefly somewhere earlier in the story for this to pay off).

Totally agree and this is exactly the direction I thought the story was heading in when I first arrived in Niaowu. Shenhua would be the naive one and Ryo would be more street-wise, maybe even using Ren's coins to pull a fast one on someone.

As for the other two characters, Ren seems to have been used primarily for comic relief as opposed to a character with whom Ryo is beginning to develop a mutual respect and, although interesting if taken at face value, the information we were given regarding Iwao felt a little underwhelming as a result of how shallow it ended up being. I feel like we could have learned some things about Iwao as a person rather than simply some things that he did in the past.

I didn't mind Ren as much as everyone else seems to, but he wasn't in the game much and his gambit for the ending made no sense to me (buying a replica mirror). Woulda been way better if Ren had to actually give the mirror up to save Ryo. Totally agree about Iwao, he and Sunming are going to need to be characterized as more than just "great martial artists who were great friends" if the story is going to be this drawn out. Also where/how did they meet? Iwao wasn't in China for that long and it's implied that they already knew each other in Bailu Village.

Agreed. It felt like little more than an argument for why the series shouldn't/won't continue backed up by a series of conflicting ideas and incorrect facts.

Saying you don't think the series will continue because it didn't sell well is one thing, saying it didn't sell well because of Suzuki (which SEPW seems to be skirting around) is something totally different. That being said, he does keep it in line with the broader point of "I was on board for S3, S3 is bad, therefore I no longer care about S4" and avoids dipping into "I speak for the entire gaming audience" territory.

 

[iknifaugood]

It's a fascinating topic, especially when looking at it from the perspective of human behaviour and biases

You can see it a lot in politics; it's not enough to disagree with certain positions, you have to disagree with everything that isn't your position.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

You can see it a lot in politics; it's not enough to disagree with certain positions, you have to disagree with everything that isn't your position.

Yep. Or contradict your core beliefs to accept the utter madness that comes out of some particularly volatile individuals' mouths...