SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[WuyingRen]

Not quite the same thing, hence why literally no one is theorizing about how any of those things will come back and basically everyone who played S2 came away with the impression that we'd meet Ziming. Remember, it's not just the pendant, we learn that Ziming wants revenge for his parents and abandoned Xiuying to find the CYM... we know (part of) his backstory. It's the difference between something being deliberately set up in the story (the mysterious scroll is also an example of this, but it's a missable item so likely not something related to the overall story) and a call back. There's nothing on the "map" that would be any use; we're told what all the images mean in S3; he has to go to the Cliff Temple next (and Niaowu for some bizarre reason) and the Dragon represents the emperor, the Phoenix the empress, and the treasure is the treasure hidden in their palace... what's left for it? Any further use it could possibly have would have to be a retcon, and that's not the same thing as setting the audience up for something.

I beg to differ on those points. For starters, as Ryo and pals are heading towards the cliff temple, I would be very surprised if we do not see them using the map in order to find its exact location in the early stages of Shenmue 4. He can't have memorized it (he can barely seem to remember information that he's been told multiple times) and neither he, Ren nor Shenhua has been there before.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if the map contains some sort of hidden code that will in some way help Ryo to solve a puzzle once they have arrived at the temple. Remember that it wasn't until the second game that the dragon and phoenix mirrors were revealed to be maps, so I do think that this mysterious map could have more to it than meets the eye.

Information about Ryo's mother has been kept to an absolute minimum to the point where I feel that it must have some significance to the narrative. The ema is one of the few physical links that we have to her and so whether through triggering a memory or triggering a conversation, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it play a part.

As for the information regarding Lan Di being taken by the Chi You Men as a child, I think it will play an important part in giving Ryo a better understanding of Lan Di and how he came to be the man that he is today - which will ultimately play a key part in Ryo's decision to forgive Lan Di (or at least decide not to kill him when the time comes).

Really woulda been nice to learn a bit more about the CYM in S3 eh? I hope nothing gets cut but I don't see how all the plot elements can be tied up without dramatically ramping up the pacing over the next 1-2 games (remember, we seem to be taking for granted that S5 is in the cards, Suzuki has said he wants to finish it in 4-5 games, which means this may all need to be crammed into S4).

Regardless of whether we see the series wrapped up in one game or two, I think it's safe to say that they're going to have to cram a hell of a lot of story into Shenmue 4.

Totally agree and this is exactly the direction I thought the story was heading in when I first arrived in Niaowu. Shenhua would be the naive one and Ryo would be more street-wise, maybe even using Ren's coins to pull a fast one on someone.

I do wonder whether this was impacted by cuts being made to the story mid-way through production. I really don't see a world where somebody thought that the interactions that were included with Feng-Li were anywhere enough for the dramatic Niao-Sun 'twist' to work. I could be wrong, but if I am, I'd be a little more worried about the future of the series than I already am.

I didn't mind Ren as much as everyone else seems to, but he wasn't in the game much and his gambit for the ending made no sense to me (buying a replica mirror). Woulda been way better if Ren had to actually give the mirror up to save Ryo.

It might just be because I really like his potential as a character, but I want to see Ren traverse a meaningful arc before the story is over rather than him just being used as a device to drive the plot forwards or a cheap laugh here and there. I can't say I was too adverse to the fake mirror scheme, but I really don't think that I learned anything about Ren in Shenmue 3 other than that he likes mushrooms.

Totally agree about Iwao, he and Sunming are going to need to be characterized as more than just "great martial artists who were great friends" if the story is going to be this drawn out. Also where/how did they meet? Iwao wasn't in China for that long and it's implied that they already knew each other in Bailu Village.

To be fair, looking back at Ryo's interactions with Kai in Shenmue 2, it was equally frustrating that so little was given away about Iwao and his reasons for being in Honk Kong, but then again, Shenmue 2 was not a game that was billed as being an inward facing game that examined Ryo's relationships with the people he cared about. Yu's comments about learning about Iwao prior to release again leads me to believe that things might have been cut here, but I suppose it's also possible that I just expected more than Yu was willing to give away at this point in the story.

Assuming that Ryo will eventually make his way to Meng-Cun though (which I think is something of a certainty at this point), he will continue to follow in Iwao's footsteps (for the duration of the next game at the very least) and so there's still hope that we will get a more in depth look at Iwao and his time in China further along the line.

Saying you don't think the series will continue because it didn't sell well is one thing, saying it didn't sell well because of Suzuki (which SEPW seems to be skirting around) is something totally different. That being said, he does keep it in line with the broader point of "I was on board for S3, S3 is bad, therefore I no longer care about S4" and avoids dipping into "I speak for the entire gaming audience" territory.

Personally I felt that it came across more as him saying that he didn't think that the series should continue rather than him not caring whether or not it did. To be honest, I got a bit lost in this section because it was a little all over the place. His intentionally misleading referencing seemed like an attempt to convince viewers that the game was a failure, his comments about Yu seemed to suggest that he was directly to blame for this, his comments about the game itself seemed to suggest that he didn't think that a game like Shenmue could work in this day and age and his comments about the guestbook in the hotel implied that he thought that this was a shame.

 

[Creward]

MGS3 is definitely my personal favourite of the series. Lov

The same, the best MGS without a doubt for me.

You can see it a lot in politics; it's not enough to disagree with certain positions, you have to disagree with everything that isn't your position.

Absolutely 100% the case here. Sometimes I wonder if I will see the end of some western democracies...

 

[SMDzero]

The same, the best MGS without a doubt for me.

Funny thing Shenmue 3 sort of reminded be of MGS3.... WOOOW now your character needs to EAT all the time!

At least in MGS3 you had a separate stamina meter and there were some eating animations.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Lol. I don’t blame them for not spending money on animating incidental things like eating. I think even pretty big budget games get away with that. That’s definitely in the nitpick category for me.

 

[iknifaugood]

I beg to differ on those points. For starters, as Ryo and pals are heading towards the cliff temple, I would be very surprised if we do not see them using the map in order to find its exact location in the early stages of Shenmue 4. He can't have memorized it (he can barely seem to remember information that he's been told multiple times) and neither he, Ren nor Shenhua has been there before.

I thought the cliff temple was a "known" location. The map only shows a bunch of mountains but Yuan later tells Ryo about the "cliff temple" as if it's a place they should know of or at least be able to find. When they're walking along the great wall, I'm assuming they know where they're going (and the great wall isn't on the scroll).

Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if the map contains some sort of hidden code that will in some way help Ryo to solve a puzzle once they have arrived at the temple. Remember that it wasn't until the second game that the dragon and phoenix mirrors were revealed to be maps, so I do think that this mysterious map could have more to it than meets the eye.

Hopefully, but the scene where Elder Yeh interprets it seemed very literal.

Information about Ryo's mother has been kept to an absolute minimum to the point where I feel that it must have some significance to the narrative. The ema is one of the few physical links that we have to her and so whether through triggering a memory or triggering a conversation, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it play a part.

Again, hopefully, but I don't think these things can all be backloaded. Ryo's mother was still in Japan when Iwao was in China so it would be weird for him to learn much about her in China. I think it's far more likely that she just doesn't play a big role in the story.

As for the information regarding Lan Di being taken by the Chi You Men as a child, I think it will play an important part in giving Ryo a better understanding of Lan Di and how he came to be the man that he is today - which will ultimately play a key part in Ryo's decision to forgive Lan Di (or at least decide not to kill him when the time comes).

Woulda been nice to get some kind of reaction from Ryo when he learned this information, instead he triples down on wanting revenge. Better not run, Lan Di! At least Lan Di has the possibility of a deeper understanding by realizing that Iwao had both mirrors this whole time and yet did not claim the treasure.

Regardless of whether we see the series wrapped up in one game or two, I think it's safe to say that they're going to have to cram a hell of a lot of story into Shenmue 4.

Fingers crossed. But I thought (and Suzuki claimed) that S3 would contain the most story of all 3 games.

I do wonder whether this was impacted by cuts being made to the story mid-way through production. I really don't see a world where somebody thought that the interactions that were included with Feng-Li were anywhere enough for the dramatic Niao-Sun 'twist' to work. I could be wrong, but if I am, I'd be a little more worried about the future of the series than I already am.

Agreed, it seemed like that was the main victim of cut content. I was baffled that Niao Sun didn't get a proper introduction, we literally know more about Ziming.

It might just be because I really like his potential as a character, but I want to see Ren traverse a meaningful arc before the story is over rather than him just being used as a device to drive the plot forwards or a cheap laugh here and there. I can't say I was too adverse to the fake mirror scheme, but I really don't think that I learned anything about Ren in Shenmue 3 other than that he likes mushrooms.

Yeah Ren and Ryo in S2 are probably my favorite gaming duo and because of all the work that S2 put in to characterizing that relationship, I felt that S3 didn't really need to do too much to flesh it out; it would have been nice and I wish it culminated in Ren doing something more genuine for Ryo, but that's something I'm willing to say could easily come in later games. As long as I get Ren on a horse I'll be happy.

Yu's comments about learning about Iwao prior to release again leads me to believe that things might have been cut here, but I suppose it's also possible that I just expected more than Yu was willing to give away at this point in the story.

This is one where I don't think it's fair to fault expectations. Ryo has been carrying a picture of Iwao and Sunming that says "at Bailu Village" since the first game, Zhu reinforces that in S2, and Suzuki said we would learn more.

Assuming that Ryo will eventually make his way to Meng-Cun though (which I think is something of a certainty at this point), he will continue to follow in Iwao's footsteps (for the duration of the next game at the very least) and so there's still hope that we will get a more in depth look at Iwao and his time in China further along the line.

I think this is certain especially because, since the first game it's been implied that Meng Cun is where we will find out what actually happened (why be so specific about the location otherwise?) between Iwao and Sunming, but Grandmaster Feng was still a colossal missed opportunity imo. There has to be more to Iwao and Sunming than just the mystery of his death.

His intentionally misleading referencing seemed like an attempt to convince viewers that the game was a failure

What did he reference that was misleading? I haven't followed the sales figures since around launch but I thought S3 under performed.

his comments about the game itself seemed to suggest that he didn't think that a game like Shenmue could work in this day and age

Well he confronts this question directly when talking about "was Shenmue always bad?" and my takeaway from that was that a lot of the stuff that was groundbreaking at the time is obviously not so in this day and age, but that Shenmue brought a lot in terms of story, setting, mood, and the combat system--that S3 ignores in favor of doubling down on the once-groundbreaking stuff.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

So I started playing Shenmue I, II, and III again this week all because of this thread. Don’t know exactly why, but I do know it was because of this specific thread.

 

[RyoHazuki84]

I know that I’m late to the party, but I want to give my piece anyway.

Shenmue is 80% of what I expected, 10% of what I not expected in a good way, 10% of what I not expected in a not so good way. So Suzuki doesn’t play games, neither does Shigeru Miyamoto. I’m glad that Shenmue isn’t like modern open world games for a variety of reasons. Most games have a map that indicates you where to go and that’s that. They don’t allow you to get intimate with their world, but Shenmue allows you to familiarize itself with its world so you can progress. I feel 3 solidifies with that tradition. Someone made a video about how most open world games treat their world like a playground as opposed to a living world to live in, and Shenmue doesn’t do that. For that reason, I’m glad Shenmue isn’t like most modern open world games. MGSV felt empty with its open fields other than enemies and animals. Not active battles between the Mujahadeed and the USSR to interfere in like how you could interfere with active battles in MGS4, and rebels would help you.

As for the final battle with Lan Di, I knew from the moment you fight Xiuying in Shenmue 2, a possible fight with Lan Di in a third game would be exactly that he dodges every move you throw at him, but he strikes back. So, I have no complains about it since that’s what I personally expected. But I can’t disagree with the QTEs and how weak those henchmen were.

Suzuki: "Concept for Shenmue 3 exists"

Former SEGA mastermind Yu Suzuki has tantalisingly teased that Shenmue 3 is much more than a fantasy - it exists. "The …

www.eurogamer.net

Suzuki said he wants to improve the game ”inwardly,” and I truly felt that with Shenmue 3, which is why I enjoy it

There is room for improvement and it is a flawed game, but by no means close to horrible.

 

[Rydeen]

Weren’t you trying to argue that S3’s combat is as fully featured and S1 and 2’s, minus the throws? Pots and kettles.

I'm pretty sure I didn't stutter. This is also a perfect illustration of what I was saying in that quote, by being a comment that's not even germane to what I actually said. lol (I'm getting deja vu again, again.)

On the fighting system in Shenmue III, I'm positive I said that lack of parries was the biggest difference in depth, but again, reading comprehension. My soul aches for Tomboz, because he's been giving up so much of his time to respond to you while you repeatedly miss the points he's making, and continue full-steam on whatever irrelevant front you want to argue instead.

I think missing the point is pretty consistent with someone I'm relatively certain doesn't know that jab combo strings, along with a number of other basic moves in Shenmue III, have virtually no startup, and if one is getting blown up by the CPU all the time because of "input delay" it's probably just a matter of sucking at the game.

As I said before, almost all of the fundamental combat elements present in the VF system are accounted for in the new system. Your and others' failure to dig beyond the surface of it is really no different from failing to grasp the VF system, as many have been wont to do over the years. It's less technical--I can grant you that. That doesn't equate to a lack of depth, or poor combat, though.

Lol. I don’t blame them for not spending money on animating incidental things like eating.

Same, but I am kind of surprised they didn't put something in just for drinking things, even if it only played when near the vending machines.

 

[WuyingRen]

I thought the cliff temple was a "known" location. The map only shows a bunch of mountains but Yuan later tells Ryo about the "cliff temple" as if it's a place they should know of or at least be able to find. When they're walking along the great wall, I'm assuming they know where they're going (and the great wall isn't on the scroll).

True, but the conversation with Yuan also suggests that they have already been to the cliff temple, which we know not to be the case, so I'm not sure that we can rely on the reliability of this conversation (perhaps it is a remnant from an earlier draft of the story that couldn't be re-recorded). We also don't really see much of the scroll itself and so it's possible there's additional information contained on it (why would Iwao/Sunming go to the trouble of returning it to it's original place if it holds no importance and the temple is a known location?). It's also possible that if there is some information hidden within the scroll that it is not hidden in plain sight (kind of how the mirrors require smoke to pass over them to reveal their secret).

Again, hopefully, but I don't think these things can all be backloaded. Ryo's mother was still in Japan when Iwao was in China so it would be weird for him to learn much about her in China. I think it's far more likely that she just doesn't play a big role in the story.

Possible, but I find the complete lack of information about her be particularly conspicuous, especially how much detail we're given about inconsequential side characters (I saw a clip recently where Yu talks about how a lot of the NPCs have blood types and information about how old their spouses are).

Woulda been nice to get some kind of reaction from Ryo when he learned this information, instead he triples down on wanting revenge. Better not run, Lan Di! At least Lan Di has the possibility of a deeper understanding by realizing that Iwao had both mirrors this whole time and yet did not claim the treasure.

Yep. That Ryo remains oblivious to some of the parallels between them remains a particular point of frustration for me, but looking at how Ryo handles some of the situations with the women he encounters, at least we can say that this is a character trait that is portrayed consistently throughout the story. I think there's plenty of room for personal growth in both characters and whilst the lack of growth to this point could be seen as disappointing, the potential for growth is still there which leaves hope that we will see it at some point moving forwards.

Fingers crossed. But I thought (and Suzuki claimed) that S3 would contain the most story of all 3 games.

This is one where I don't think it's fair to fault expectations. Ryo has been carrying a picture of Iwao and Sunming that says "at Bailu Village" since the first game, Zhu reinforces that in S2, and Suzuki said we would learn more.

Agreed. Looking back at some of the things that we were told prior to launch, it does feel like they failed to deliver a little in some of these areas. For the most part, a lot of the new information that we were given in Shenmue 3 served as a slight expansion on things that we already knew or confirmation of things that had already been heavily implied.

What did he reference that was misleading? I haven't followed the sales figures since around launch but I thought S3 under performed.

He claims that the game sold less than 18,000 copies in its opening week (these sales figures covered sales in Japan only, not worldwide sales) and that Deep Silver had publicly commented on the 'disappointing sales figures' (their only public comments regarding sales of Shenmue 3 were that it did 'fine' financially, was a 'niche series' and was their 'leading revenue driver' for the quarter in which it was released). He also doesn't mention that the game effectively sold 70,000+ copies through its crowd-funding efforts, which I think is important when discussing the game's sales, but I suppose I can let that one slide.

One could certainly argue that the truth (Shenmue sold less than 18,000 copies in Japan and failed to break into the top ten in all but three[?] territories in it's opening week) would have also pointed to the game not performing particularly well (I'm fairly certain that you will), but I think these kind of misleading inaccuracies are emblematic of my issues with this video on the whole. If you were to remove all of the exaggeration, misleading cherry-picked examples and false information, it would still paint the game in a negative light, but I think the takeaway for the viewer would be that Shenmue was a bad / below average game that didn't perform particularly well from a sales perspective rather than it being a terrible game that performed terribly.

I get that the latter is exactly what he was going for, but don't think that this excuses the aforementioned techniques used to make that point and suspect that his primary reasoning for doing this simply comes down to 'terrible' getting more clicks than 'bad'.

 

[SMDzero]

I was also disappointed in Ryo's relationship with Shenhua. I felt Ryo and Shenhua has an amazing journey together in SII, they braved the rocky path together.

In S3 Shenhua often felt like luggage and she often stays at her house in Bailu twiddling her thumbs or more egregiously Ryo flat out abandons her in Niaowu where she is left to wander around the city aimlessly like a mental patient (After spending all day in Niaowu walking around by herself like an orphan) Ryo: "I'm going to be rich!" Ryo (pats her on her hipster beret): Sure Shenhua... sure you will. "

I miss Shenmue 2 Shenhua... I really thought her adventure with Ryo would kick up to another level in S3.. instead she became a poor-man's Ine San without the daily money. Her abject enthusiasm about "face off" was also cringeworthy. If Suzuki implemented that because he ran out of things for Ryo and Shenhua to do or talk about than that is depressing.

Story-wise I also think we really really needed to learn more about the Chi You Men structure/4 leaders, Lan Di's motives and a more detailed history of the mirrors seeing as we were IN the only village where that damn Phantom River Stone exists.

We also needed to learn WHY the 2 giant mirrors were carved, the significance of the Sword of 7 Stars and why the f*ck it floated (Shenhua's dad could have addressed all these points at the end).

Oh and the game really needed Baisha... someone here said Shenmue 3 is essentially missing it's disc 3 and that is woefully apparent.

The game should not have shipped in it's current state.. they should have delayed a year to implement Baisha.

I did enjoy Shenmue 3 while I played it... but picking it up again feels so empty.

I hope for a Shenmue 4 to make things right, but I don't know if it will happen.

 

[spud1897]

I was also disappointed in Ryo's relationship with Shenhua. I felt Ryo and Shenhua has an amazing journey together in SII, they braved the rocky path together.

In S3 Shenhua often felt like luggage and she often stays at her house in Bailu twiddling her thumbs or more egregiously Ryo flat out abandons her in Niaowu where she is left to wander around the city aimlessly like a mental patient (After spending all day in Niaowu walking around by herself like an orphan) Ryo: "I'm going to be rich!" Ryo (pats her on her hipster beret): Sure Shenhua... sure you will. "

I miss Shenmue 2 Shenhua... I really thought her adventure with Ryo would kick up to another level in S3.. instead she became a poor-man's Ine San without the daily money. Her abject enthusiasm about "face off" was also cringeworthy. If Suzuki implemented that because he ran out of things for Ryo and Shenhua to do or talk about than that is depressing.

Story-wise I also think we really really needed to learn more about the Chi You Men structure/4 leaders, Lan Di's motives and a more detailed history of the mirrors seeing as we were IN the only village where that damn Phantom River Stone exists.

We also needed to learn WHY the 2 giant mirror were carved, the significance of the Sword of 7 Stars and why the f*ck it floated (Shenhua's dad could have addressed all these points at the end).

Oh and the game really needed Baisha... someone here said Shenmue 3 is essentially missing it's disc 3 and that is woefully apparent.

The game should not have shipped in it's current state.. they should have delayed a year to implement Baisha.

I did enjoy Shenmue 3 while I played it... but picking it up again feels so empty.

I hope for a Shenmue 4 to make things right, but I don't know if it will happen.

Wasn't the magical elements deliberately retconned? Hence why it probably wasn't expanded on. The large carvings I agree.

The game was never getting delayed another year. Just from the outside looking in it looked like the money had ran out, none was forthcoming and they had to adjust. Also as much as a delay may have improved what we got I sense it would have been given all sorts of treatment in the press for not making it's release date.

EDIT: We also don't know if Yu Suzuki asked for another delay or not from the November date. I suspect, if he did, this was declined.

 

[SMDzero]

Wasn't the magical elements deliberately retconned? Hence why it probably wasn't expanded on. The large carvings I agree.

The game was never getting delayed another year. Just from the outside looking in it looked like the money had ran out, none was forthcoming and they had to adjust. Also as much as a delay may have improved what we got I sense it would have been given all sorts of treatment in the press for not making it's release date.

EDIT: We also don't know if Yu Suzuki asked for another delay or not from the November date. I suspect, if he did, this was declined.

Yeah they ran out of money and shipped 2/3rds of a game. Where was Baisha? The character perspective system? Rapport System? Ming Ming? All and so much more cut!

But the game was already trashed by the press... and was already delayed 2 years.. 1 more year delay wouldn't have made a difference. As Miyamoto said "A delayed game eventually comes out a bad game is bad forever".

Did they retcon the magical elements? Who knows? Seems Yu Suzuki took the easy way out of just not showing it again.

Suzuki made that bold magic choice 20 years ago it's his obligation to stick to it and not be wishy washy and cheat us out of an explanation.

 

[spud1897]

Yeah they ran out of money and shipped 2/3rds of a game. Where was Baisha? The character perspective system? Ming Ming? All and so much more cut!

But the game was already trashed by the press... and was already delayed 2 years.. 1 more year delay wouldn't have made a difference. As Miyamoto said "A delayed game eventually comes out a bad game is bad forever".

Did they retcon the magical elements? Who knows? Seems Yu Suzuki took the easy way out of just not showing it again.

Suzuki made that bold magic choice 20 years ago it's his obligation to stick to it and not be wishy washy and cheat us out of an explanation.

While I agree with some of the sentiment a delay was never going to be financed. While it would likely have been beneficial it seemed that this was probably taken off the table, or any other delay for that matter.

I'd have to go and check but I'm pretty sure changes were made in reference to the ending of 2/start of 3 and Yu Suzuki mentioned these. I know previously some expressed concern over the magical elements (I had no issue with it personally) so that may have come into play.

The term cheated is a bit strong. Changes have been made, that much is apparent and while we did back the project on kickstarter the final story outcome is upto the creator. Of course I'd like to know more around it but Yu Suzuki (or any creator) doesn't have to publicly justify these. But I take your point.

 

[ShenSun]

It would have been cool if the game got delayed until the PS5 launch. It would have stood out more and allowed ysnet to add more to the game. The issue with certain publishers is they want games out by certain dates, completed or not in order to reach their financial targets. It's becoming more apparent that a lot of publishers now have the mindset of"release the game unfinished and patch it up later", which is a very bad philosophy

It's clear to me that Shenmue 3 was Deep Silver's holiday game and its what they were relying on to bring in the money during that period. They even say as much in their financial report.

I will always say that releasing Shenmue 3 in November was a mistake even if it did make them money. There was way too much competition so it couldn't stand out properly and the game could have used an extra year in the oven. But then again, Deep Silver and other partners were probably not willing to fund ysnet for another year, so it was either November or nothing unfortunately.

I love Shenmue 3 and I really enjoy it but i can see it has issues. It's clear the project was way too ambitious and it tried to do too much. Unfortunately this reality was realized too late when the budget ran out in Niaowu. I can't knock ysnet for trying to get everything in their though, I would have probably done the same thing. Suzuki clearly wanted to do everything for the fans. Unfortunately, the story element was somewhat sacrificed and i'm sure he regrets that looking back on it.

We should be good for Shenmue 4 though with whoever publishes it. We have 2 more games left and everything is now fully in place to make these games epic.

But yeah, i like Shenmue 3 a lot. Probably because I don't view it as the game where we deal with Lan Di. I view it strictly as s Shenhua's story and nothing else. I'm pretty sure Baisha would have told the same story as the Niaowu castle. It would have just been more fleshed out and less rushed which would have been much better from a story perspective. Who knows.

I can't wait to play Shenmue 3 again in the fall though. Really looking forward to it

 

[RyoHazuki84]

As for the story not progressing, here is where I beg to differ
-You learn about the origins of the mirrors
-You learn that the man with Iwao is Lan Di's father
-You learn more about Iwao's time in China
-You learn that Ryo's mother's name was Akane
-You learn a bit more about Lan Di and that he was raised by the Chiyoumen
-Based on Niao Sun's actions, you get some indication that the Chiyoumen are in disarray
-You get some updates with Nozomi and the rest of the original cast through the phone calls

Superpatch Wolf addresses most of the game is about finding Shenhua's father. It's no different from finding Zhu Yuanda for most of Shenmue II. As for the magic being "taken out," I beg to differ when Shen Hua interrogated that big thug in Bailu Village.

I'll admit that the characters who helped Ryo, in the end, did deserve more expansion and more context on why they choose to help Ryo, most especially the temple maiden.

As for getting buns and booze for the old master, I thought it was a good call back to the prototype, The Old Man and The Peach.

I understand Baisha was unfortunately cut, but I don't think it's as impacting as the removal of Kingdom of the Flies from MGSV.

Lastly, while the forklift game wasn't overwhelming with style, it made it up with substance with the things you had to transport and it expands what you can see at arcades the following day.

 

[Suzaku]

As for the story not progressing, here is where I beg to differ
-You learn about the origins of the mirrors
-You learn that the man with Iwao is Lan Di's father
-You learn more about Iwao's time in China
-You learn that Ryo's mother's name was Akane
-You learn a bit more about Lan Di and that he was raised by the Chiyoumen
-Based on Niao Sun's actions, you get some indication that the Chiyoumen are in disarray
-You get some updates with Nozomi and the rest of the original cast through the phone calls

Superpatch Wolf addresses most of the game is about finding Shenhua's father. It's no different from finding Zhu Yuanda for most of Shenmue II. As for the magic being "taken out," I beg to differ when Shen Hua interrogated that big thug in Bailu Village.

I'll admit that the characters who helped Ryo, in the end, did deserve more expansion and more context on why they choose to help Ryo, most especially the temple maiden.

As for getting buns and booze for the old master, I thought it was a good call back to the prototype, The Old Man and The Peach.

I understand Baisha was unfortunately cut, but I don't think it's as impacting as the removal of Kingdom of the Flies from MGSV.

Lastly, while the forklift game wasn't overwhelming with style, it made it up with substance with the things you had to transport and it expands what you can see at arcades the following day.

As for "story not progressing", I add also few other crucial things to your good points:

-Ryo lose the Phoenix Mirror (probably one of the most important point in the story right now)
-Lan Di has enemies inside their own organization
-We finally confront with Lan Di for the second time (the first being the intro of S1)
-We learn the next step of the journey, the cliff temple


As for Baisha, I really hope it will be used in Shenmue 4, together with the scrapped Chinese Wall section.

 

[iknifaugood]

I'm pretty sure I didn't stutter. This is also a perfect illustration of what I was saying in that quote, by being a comment that's not even germane to what I actually said. lol (I'm getting deja vu again, again.)

On the fighting system in Shenmue III, I'm positive I said that lack of parries was the biggest difference in depth, but again, reading comprehension.

You said:

The only fundamental differences in combat features between Shenmue I&II and Shenmue III, are grabs, parries, and unlocked movement... Having unlocked movement is probably one of the least good things about the combat in the first two games, in my opinion. Can't say I miss that.

So if it's not fair to say that if S4 keeps the same system but adds parries and throws, you will consider it as fully featured as S1 and 2's system, then I'm afraid it's not my reading comprehension that should be in question.

I think missing the point is pretty consistent with someone I'm relatively certain doesn't know that jab combo strings, along with a number of other basic moves in Shenmue III, have virtually no startup, and if one is getting blown up by the CPU all the time because of "input delay" it's probably just a matter of sucking at the game.

I showed you a video of a guy beating the hardest 1v1 fights in the game by spamming one move. You can't "suck" at a game that allows for that. And I'm afraid "git gud" isn't a requisite for criticism.

As I said before, almost all of the fundamental combat elements present in the VF system are accounted for in the new system. Your and others' failure to dig beyond the surface of it is really no different from failing to grasp the VF system, as many have been wont to do over the years. It's less technical--I can grant you that. That doesn't equate to a lack of depth, or poor combat, though.

If you enjoyed the combat system, then good for you, but no one is "failing to grasp the system"; we don't like it. At least not as much as the first two.

 

[WuyingRen]

I showed you a video of a guy beating the hardest 1v1 fights in the game by spamming one move. You can't "suck" at a game that allows for that. And I'm afraid "git gud" isn't a requisite for criticism.

I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered a fighting game with a combat system that wasn’t susceptible to button mashing. With the exception of perhaps Chai, I can beat all of the fights in the first two games by repeatedly tapping the block button and spamming elbow assault (mapped to the trigger).

I do think the VF combat system is superior to what we got in Shenmue 3 (although I would expect this to be the case given that it probably cost nearly as much to develop as the entirety of Shenmue 3), but let’s not pretend that it didn’t have its flaws.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

The physics and animations are my biggest obstacles.The combat just doesn't feel satisfying to me. I am playing Ghost of Tsushima right now and it has very simplistic combat, yet 20+ hours in I'm still having a blast. They made it feel great. That's certainly easier said than done...

 

[iknifaugood]

I can beat all of the fights in the first two games by repeatedly tapping the block button and spamming elbow assault (mapped to the trigger).

We're not talking about story fights here. @Rydeen was specifically mentioning high level play, which is why I'm talking about a video of someone beating the hardest 1v1 fights in the Rose Garden on nightmare difficulty (so the hardest fights in the game), by literally spamming one button. You simply can't do that in the hardest fights in S1 and 2, which is why I asked @Rydeen to find a video of someone beating Izumi in a similar fashion.

I do think the VF combat system is superior to what we got in Shenmue 3 (although I would expect this to be the case given that it probably cost nearly as much to develop as the entirety of Shenmue 3), but let’s not pretend that it didn’t have its flaws.

It has its flaws for sure; they're 20 year old games! But I don't think it's quite fair to say that S3 couldn't have been better considering the budget. I wouldn't have minded if they kept it locked to a 2.5D view and restricted it to 1v1 fights, for instance, to make it easier to develop but still retain that "fighting game engine" feel.