Supernatural Elements in Shenmue IV and Beyond

I for one was horrified by the floating sword back when i first saw it. It seemed out of the blue and really took me out of the game. I’m glad it’s gone.
Suzuki has said that he and his team thought S2 was the end so they put the fantastical elements in to "go out with a bang". You're free to dislike it but it's where the series was always headed as far back as Project Berkley and if S4 ever comes out, the fantastical elements are likely to make a return.
 
I don’t think we’ve had any indication that S4 will be the last game. Based on what I’ve read I was under the impression the aim is to get to 5.
Suzuki has said that he planned 4-5 games, I'm just taking the lower and, at this point, more realistic number. If we're really only at 40% of the story, then who knows? I think the chapter structure has been abandoned so it's hard to tell how far we are, how much is left, or what even constitutes a chapter anymore.
 
Of course, there may have been a pair of mirrors from long ago and the recent/current set is history repeating itself in some fashion. There is obvious still an ancient element to all of this (Shenhua's destiny since ancient times, her experiencing the feeling of "hundreds of birthdays" etc)
I think it being about history repeating itself is how it is. The mirrors themselves aren't ancient, but Qing dynasty followed the tradition of ancient times by making the mirrors as a key to some treasure or mystical power. And just like in ancient times, people are again fighting and dying over posession of the mirrors.

Shenhua herself is probably descendant or reincarnation of people who were linked with the ancient mirrors and is now continuing that destiny in the modern era.
 
I'd really like to see a video of the dialogue between Ryo and Fangmei about Ryo's dreams again. I've searched on YouTube for it but can't find it. I'm sure Ryo refers to the person as 'she'. If I'm right then the writers of Shenmue 3 either wouldn't have known about the dialogue or they hoped that no one had seen it(surely not lol).

I do not buy that Ryo has simply forgotten whether the person is male or female. It's either a contradiction or retcon or maybe Ryo doesn't want to make Nozomi jealous lol.
Okay, I found it in BlueMue's compilation video. Fangmei asks Ryo what he would ask a fortune teller who's always right. This is Ryo's answer if you select "Love":



Even here, Ryo only refers to Shenhua as a "person" and makes no reference to her gender. However, the fact that he associates the person with love implies that he knows it's a girl. It also sounds to me like he can picture what she looks like, since he knows that he's never met her but thinks that he will someday.

I still don't think that he recognizes her from his dreams when he meets her though. There would have been some indication if he did. But perhaps the thought does cross his mind when Shenhua speaks to him of destiny (after he shows her Xiuying's picture by the fire).
 
It's definitely possible that this was what was intended by S2 but the big outstanding issue is still Chi You, whose origins date back to around 2500 BCE.
As others have pointed out, I see no reason why the mirrors have to date back to that time period in order to resurrect Chi You. This power could've been created/uncovered during the Qing Dynasty. There are many, many possibilities. Maybe Chi You's power was trapped inside ancient mirrors, they were destroyed to stop the resurrection from ever happening, and the "new" mirrors were an attempt to bring him back? Who knows -- we just don't know enough at this point in the story.

...it seems to confirm with 100% certainty that the mirrors are 76 years old and that they are keys to a literal treasure.
I wouldn't say that's 100% certain. The treasure in the scroll could be an abstract representation, or there could be literal treasure and "mystical treasure". It's pretty common in these types of stories for physical treasure to be attached or connected to a mystical power. I pointed this out in another thread but there's a floating, glowing orb of some kind above the treasure on the scroll -- that could be anything at this stage.
 
I think it being about history repeating itself is how it is. The mirrors themselves aren't ancient, but Qing dynasty followed the tradition of ancient times by making the mirrors as a key to some treasure or mystical power. And just like in ancient times, people are again fighting and dying over posession of the mirrors.

Shenhua herself is probably descendant or reincarnation of people who were linked with the ancient mirrors and is now continuing that destiny in the modern era.
I like the idea in theory but it raises some potentially uncomfortable issues about post-dynastic China.

There are many, many possibilities. Maybe Chi You's power was trapped inside ancient mirrors, they were destroyed to stop the resurrection from ever happening, and the "new" mirrors were an attempt to bring him back? Who knows -- we just don't know enough at this point in the story.
True, but if there was going to be more to it, it seems that S3 would have provided more insight rather than doubling down on what we learned in S2. I'm just looking at it from the view that, if the story has in fact been truncated, it seems like we might not be in store for another big lore dump considering all the other plot elements that need to be resolved in order for the story to end. The Chi You Men could just as easily refer to an organization named after "opposition" to the emperor and empress.

I wouldn't say that's 100% certain. The treasure in the scroll could be an abstract representation, or there could be literal treasure and "mystical treasure". It's pretty common in these types of stories for physical treasure to be attached or connected to a mystical power. I pointed this out in another thread but there's a floating, glowing orb of some kind above the treasure on the scroll -- that could be anything at this stage.
I'm sure there's at least another wrinkle to what the treasure is to be sure, but this notion that there's a ton if story left is unrealistic. Even if he manages to secure funding for S5, how many more areas will we realistically be travelling to? We already know we have to go to the Cliff Temple, Meng Cun, and wherever the treasure is; even if there are 6 locations spread across 2 more games, I think that's the maximum we can expect (and that would be 2 S2 sized games). If he tries to wrap it up in S4, I'd be surprised if the nature of the treasure is substantially changed considering how much the supernatural is purposely downplayed in S3.
 
In S1, Master Chen says the mirrors will revive Chi You and he learned that info from Yuanda Zhu, so why would Zhu lie?
Well, why would he lie to Ryo? If you're going to complain about contradictions, then you'd might as well start with Shenmue II contradicting Shenmue I. Yuanda Zhu, the same man who supposedly told Master Chen about Chi You's resurrection, tells Ryo right to his face that the mirrors are nothing more than a treasure map and Ryo doesn't even question it.

Also even in the bad ending to S2, the phoenix mirror cracks and Lan Di says he wants to take Shenhua's power for the Chi You
I'm not sure about this, but I believe this may have been a mistranslation in the Xbox version of the game. In the European Dreamcast version, the subtitle reads "I shall take your power, for the Chiyoumen."

It's definitely possible that this was what was intended by S2 but the big outstanding issue is still Chi You, whose origins date back to around 2500 BCE. In S1, Master Chen says the mirrors will revive Chi You and he learned that info from Yuanda Zhu, so why would Zhu lie?
It is never explicitly stated that the mirrors will revive Chi You. Master Chen says that Zhu once told him that "when the Dragon and the Phoenix meet, the gates of heaven and earth will open...and Chi You will resurrect itself on Earth." Then Master Chen speculates that Lan Di will "try to make use of both mirrors," but he's actually just as clueless as Ryo as to what they do or how they are used.

The whole thing was cryptic at best and we don't know whether or not it was ever intended to be taken literally.

Why this treasure was hidden one year before the end of the Qing dynasty when it could supposedly "revive" it is anyone's guess.
Wait, what? When was this stated? As far as I know, we have no clue how long the treasure has been hidden for.

What could any of this have to do with Chi You if there are characters in S1 older than the mirrors?
If there was an ancient set of mirrors as I have speculated, and the new set is an exact replica made from the same type of stone by the same lineage of stonemasons, then anything is possible. I don't really see why their age matters in regards to their potential ability to resurrect Chi You.

I always thought the story from Chen and Zhu were both wrong (like how in Raiders of the Lost Ark, we learn that the ark is a weapon and then a radio, but it's neither of those things) but, barring some Nibelheim-esque twist where everyone in Bailu Village has been bribed into lying to Ryo, it seems to confirm with 100% certainty that the mirrors are 76 years old and that they are keys to a literal treasure.
How so? How is it confirmed any more than it was in Shenmue II? Both games only make reference to the mirrors being the key to unlocking a treasure. Aside from the bad ending in the American version of Shenmue II, Chi You was literally only mentioned one time in the entire series.

Just because the mirrors were made in Bailu Village, that doesn't mean that the villagers necessarily know anything about what they do. Even Yuan might not know their true purpose if he and his recent ancestors have just been following ancient blueprints passed down from generation to generation.

I just don't think we're getting another big lore dump about the history of the mirrors; that's what Bailu Village was for.
That's just your own assumption. We don't know exactly when or where the biggest lore dump about the history of the mirrors could occur. I personally believe that we're still going to learn much more about them. If the story is only 40% complete by the end of Shenmue III, then I wouldn't expect for all of the biggest mysteries to have been revealed already.

It would be easy for the games to keep passing the mirrors off as literal treasure maps, only to reveal their true purpose when you arrive at the place where the treasure is supposed to be hidden.

I think that the scope and direction of the story has been dramatically altered, especially if it's going to end in 1 more game. If I recall correctly, S3 was supposed to move the story as much or more than S2 (at least in terms of chapters). If S4 is going to be the end, YS needs to reveal what happened in Meng Cun, Shenhua's real parents, what's at the cliff temple, what the mirrors actually do/what the treasure is (and what the CYM want), and resolve the conflict between Ryo, Lan Di and Niao Sun.
I think that all of these plot threads are still going to be resolved. I don't believe that Yu Suzuki has any intention of finishing the series in one more game. I don't think he would admit that Shenmue III takes us just 40% through the story, only to try and squeeze the last 60% into a single game.

The article you linked to is from four and a half years ago, right after the Kickstarter was announced. At this point, I'm almost positive that he knows it will take at least five games to properly complete the story.

Suzuki has said that he and his team thought S2 was the end so they put the fantastical elements in to "go out with a bang". You're free to dislike it but it's where the series was always headed as far back as Project Berkley and if S4 ever comes out, the fantastical elements are likely to make a return.
Not everything that happened in the Project Berkley video was necessarily still meant to happen in Shenmue by the time it became a Dreamcast game. Project Berkley was also to take place in the Virtua Fighter universe, in which there exists an evil organization that kidnapped a ninja's mother and turned her into a fighting robot.

True, but if there was going to be more to it, it seems that S3 would have provided more insight rather than doubling down on what we learned in S2.
Not necessarily. Like I said, Shenmue III only takes us 40% through the story. There is still plenty of time for big reveals to occur.

I don't think Yu has any interest in truncating his story due to uncertainty regarding the future of the series. If he did, then he would have tried to finish it in Shenmue III.

I'm sure there's at least another wrinkle to what the treasure is to be sure, but this notion that there's a ton if story left is unrealistic. Even if he manages to secure funding for S5, how many more areas will we realistically be travelling to? We already know we have to go to the Cliff Temple, Meng Cun, and wherever the treasure is; even if there are 6 locations spread across 2 more games, I think that's the maximum we can expect (and that would be 2 S2 sized games).
You don't think that six locations spread across two more games is enough to tell all the story that needs to be told, even if it moves at a pace more akin to Shenmue II? I do. Besides, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a Shenmue VI.

If he tries to wrap it up in S4, I'd be surprised if the nature of the treasure is substantially changed considering how much the supernatural is purposely downplayed in S3.
I don't think that the supernatural was really downplayed in Shenmue III, other than removing the scene of the floating sword maybe. Overall, it feels in line with the first two games. There are subtle hints of it, quite possibly building towards something bigger.

As I've already articulated in this post, we were never promised Chi You, but that also doesn't mean that it still can't happen. But just to make my own stance on the situation clear, I never believed that a literal Chinese monster that will devour our world would appear in the series nor did I want it to. That's way too over the top and fantastical.

Ideally, I would like to see the hints of mysticism that have been present in all three games pay off in a way that is more grounded in reality. Something that is not much more out there than what happened at the end of Shenmue II. I wouldn't even mind a Project Berkley moment, where Shenhua fends off some attackers by building up her Qi and releasing some sort of energy blast. But I would hope that even something like this stays within reason.

What essentially amounts to a kaiju appearing in Shenmue is just too much, in my opinion. I wouldn't mind the legend of Chi You having something to do with the creation of the mirrors though. I also think they could pull off someone being possessed by the spirit of Chi You or something of that nature. But a legendary Chinese monster literally being resurrected on Earth? I don't think that belongs in Shenmue.

@Dg1995 posted a perfect example of what I don't want to happen to Shenmue. Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy is a game that basically started out as a murder mystery but eventually turned into The Matrix.
 
Suzuki has said that he and his team thought S2 was the end so they put the fantastical elements in to "go out with a bang". You're free to dislike it but it's where the series was always headed as far back as Project Berkley and if S4 ever comes out, the fantastical elements are likely to make a return.
And I can live with that. Just not my taste. Imagine being able to appreciate nuance ;-) :p
 
Well, why would he lie to Ryo? If you're going to complain about contradictions, then you'd might as well start with Shenmue II contradicting Shenmue I. Yuanda Zhu, the same man who supposedly told Master Chen about Chi You's resurrection, tells Ryo right to his face that the mirrors are nothing more than a treasure map and Ryo doesn't even question it.
That's what I mean, Zhu was either lying to Chen or Ryo. Suzuki has said "Zhu lies to protect his friends" (or something like that) and as of S3, it appears he was lying to Master Chen.

I'm not sure about this, but I believe this may have been a mistranslation in the Xbox version of the game. In the European Dreamcast version, the subtitle reads "I shall take your power, for the Chiyoumen."
Same difference, really. I didn't think he was literally going to take her power (whatever that means) for a monster.

The whole thing was cryptic at best and we don't know whether or not it was ever intended to be taken literally.
I don't think it's meant to be taken literally. Although one of the Shenmue Online trailers shows something that is basically a literal interpretation of the events of the poem.

Wait, what? When was this stated? As far as I know, we have no clue how long the treasure has been hidden for.
Well if the mirrors were made at the behest of the emperor and empress in 1910 and they form a map to their hidden treasure and that treasure is the key to reviving their dynasty, which ended in 1911, when do you think it was buried?

If there was an ancient set of mirrors as I have speculated, and the new set is an exact replica made from the same type of stone by the same lineage of stonemasons, then anything is possible.
This hasn't even been hinted at in the games. Master Chen deals in Chinese antiques and somehow didn't notice that the mirrors share the same designs used by the last emperor of China, so I agree that anything is possible.

I don't really see why their age matters in regards to their potential ability to resurrect Chi You.
I mean when you're talking about resurrecting Chinese monsters nothing really "matters", it's just weird. Like if the Ark was made in 1890, obviously opening it could result in the same thing, it loses a lot of its mystique imo.

How so? How is it confirmed any more than it was in Shenmue II? Both games only make reference to the mirrors being the key to unlocking a treasure.
Shenmue 3 has the blind woman literally say the dragon is the emperor, the phoenix is the empress, and the treasure is the the treasure hidden in their palace after Shenhua finds a scroll depicting a dragon and a phoenix floating over 2 chests filled with gold. This is a pretty definitive confirmation imo.

Chi You was literally only mentioned one time in the entire series.
The bad guys are called the Chi You Men (followers of Chi You), Lan Di has a tattoo of a demon face, and the helicopter has that same demon face as a decal.

Just because the mirrors were made in Bailu Village, that doesn't mean that the villagers necessarily know anything about what they do. Even Yuan might not know their true purpose if he and his recent ancestors have just been following ancient blueprints passed down from generation to generation.
The blueprints are from 1910, when the mirrors were first made. I was expecting the use of Phantom River Stone to be important, especially because in S2, we find out that Yuan was hearing "voices from the stone", but we learn nothing about it and it's only found in Bailu Village. Why would the people who made the mirrors, carved giant reliefs of them into a quarry, and recite a poem about dragons and phoenixes and destiny not know anything?

It would be easy for the games to keep passing the mirrors off as literal treasure maps, only to reveal their true purpose when you arrive at the place where the treasure is supposed to be hidden.
That's what I'm assuming is going to happen. But then again I assumed we were going to learn more in Bailu Village.

I think that all of these plot threads are still going to be resolved.
They have to be in order for the story to properly end.

I don't believe that Yu Suzuki has any intention of finishing the series in one more game. I don't think he would admit that Shenmue III takes us just 40% through the story, only to try and squeeze the last 60% into a single game.
Even if he squeezes 30% into each game, that's still quite a bit more story than we've seen from the series, especially because I have no idea what percent he considers each game to cover.

The article you linked to is from four and a half years ago, right after the Kickstarter was announced. At this point, I'm almost positive that he knows it will take at least five games to properly complete the story.
Well I'm sure he's seen what happened to S3 with the budget he had and that S4 is likely to have even less, so if he really wants to properly complete the story then he's going to have to confront more than just how many sequels he wants to spread it over.

Not everything that happened in the Project Berkley video was necessarily still meant to happen in Shenmue by the time it became a Dreamcast game. Project Berkley was also to take place in the Virtua Fighter universe, in which there exists an evil organization that kidnapped a ninja's mother and turned her into a fighting robot.
True, but it was clearly a part of the series from its inception, S1's prophecy and allusions to Chinese monsters, and S2's telekinesis, floating swords, and magic lasers. Plus, again, Suzuki claimed it's what gave S2's ending its 'bang'.

I don't think Yu has any interest in truncating his story due to uncertainty regarding the future of the series. If he did, then he would have tried to finish it in Shenmue III.
I'm not sure, I think S3 represents him leaving the door open to either wrap it up in 1 more game, or expand in the sequel. I think he was very deliberate in this which is why we didn't get things like the 4 CYM leaders.

You don't think that six locations spread across two more games is enough to tell all the story that needs to be told, even if it moves at a pace more akin to Shenmue II? I do.
I do, but that's a far cry from what S3 set up. I'm of the mind that S3 represents maybe 5% of the overall story, S2 is 30%, and S1 is the other 5%. But it's expensive to design 3 areas and script all the story that needs to be crammed into them even if you recycle all the character models and animation from the first game.

Besides, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a Shenmue VI.
I think it's crazy to hold out hope for that at this point and Suzuki has never expressed any interest in making it to my knowledge. He's already talking about starting other franchises.

I don't think that the supernatural was really downplayed in Shenmue III, other than removing the scene of the floating sword maybe. Overall, it feels in line with the first two games.
It feels like a soft reboot to me when it should have been building story momentum. I mentioned in a previous post all the things that were set up in S2 that were seemingly abandoned in S3.

As I've already articulated in this post, we were never promised Chi You, but that also doesn't mean that it still can't happen. But just to make my own stance on the situation clear, I never believed that a literal Chinese monster that will devour our world would appear in the series nor did I want it to. That's way too over the top and fantastical.

Ideally, I would like to see the hints of mysticism that have been present in all three games pay off in a way that is more grounded in reality. Something that is not much more out there than what happened at the end of Shenmue II. I wouldn't even mind a Project Berkley moment, where Shenhua fends off some attackers by building up her Qi and releasing some sort of energy blast. But I would hope that even something like this stays within reason.

What essentially amounts to a kaiju appearing in Shenmue is just too much, in my opinion. I wouldn't mind the legend of Chi You having something to do with the creation of the mirrors though. I also think they could pull off someone being possessed by the spirit of Chi You or something of that nature. But a legendary Chinese monster literally being resurrected on Earth? I don't think that belongs in Shenmue.
This is basically my stance as well. I pretty much agree with all of this. Though I won't lie, even though I despise everything about Shenmue Online, that dragon and phoenix stuff with Shenhua in the ancient dress looked pretty cool.

And I can live with that. Just not my taste. Imagine being able to appreciate nuance ;-) :p
That's fair enough. I don't think an ancient Chinese monster resurrecting itself fits the series either but if it happens, I'll certainly see where it goes.
 
I want no supernatural elements for Ryo and Lan Di. For Shenhua probably it will make some sense due to the role she is going to play in the whole storyline.
I really hope Ryo vs Lan Di fight NEVER turns out like this:
I think if Project Berkley is any indication, there will be a supernatural aspect fo Landi AND he will be fighting in that manner with Shenhua. From what we've seen in other material, it's gonna be the Phoenix vs. the Dragon. Phoenix being Shenhua, and the Dragon being Landi. I think it's probably gonna have something to do with the hidden treasure. It likely isn't anything like gold or silver, but instead it's a supernatural power..
 
Yu Suzuki has never expressed wanting to do Shenmue 4? Did you read the message at the end of the game. He might also want to do other games, fair enough, but hes been clear in the media. Shenmue 4 is what he wants to do.
 
Yu Suzuki has never expressed wanting to do Shenmue 4? Did you read the message at the end of the game. He might also want to do other games, fair enough, but hes been clear in the media. Shenmue 4 is what he wants to do.
He was referring to Shenmue 6. He was quoting my post where I said that "I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a Shenmue VI."
 
That's what I mean, Zhu was either lying to Chen or Ryo. Suzuki has said "Zhu lies to protect his friends" (or something like that) and as of S3, it appears he was lying to Master Chen.
At this point, I’m still not even sure that Zhu can be considered a friend.

Although introduced as being so very early on in the story, his motivation for sending the letter to Iwao is very unclear and the wording comes across as being very unfamiliar.

To the best of my knowledge, we have nothing other than Zhou’s word to suggest that Iwao and Zhu even knew each other, let alone that they were friends.

Zhu’s actions were responsible for the Phoenix mirror being discovered, bought to China and ultimately handed over to the CYM. I’m not sure that anything he’s done or said so far in the story can be seen as ‘helping’ Ryo.

How did the Chi You Men know that Ryo was heading to Bailu Village? How did Niaosun know that Ryo had the Phoenix mirror? Why did Yu’s man (the pawn shop owner in Kowloon) hand Ryo over to the yellow heads? Why did Iwao never mention Zhu to Ryo if they were friends? How did Zhu know that the chi you men would be coming to find the mirrors?

There are certain possible answers to these questions that would suggest that Zhu is not at all what he appears and if this is the case, nothing that he told Ryo can be considered fact.
 
Yu Suzuki has never expressed wanting to do Shenmue 4? Did you read the message at the end of the game. He might also want to do other games, fair enough, but hes been clear in the media. Shenmue 4 is what he wants to do.
Ah ok my bad. 6am reading kicking in.

Cheers @B-Man
 
To the best of my knowledge, we have nothing other than Zhou’s word to suggest that Iwao and Zhu even knew each other, let alone that they were friends.
He doesn't really say that he was friends with Iwao, he says Sunming Zhao was his best friend.

Zhu’s actions were responsible for the Phoenix mirror being discovered, bought to China and ultimately handed over to the CYM.
Zhu warned Ryo that Lan Di was headed toward Guilin, that's the reason Ryo went there in the first place. It's also worth noting that in S1, Chai says "Lan Di hates Yuanda Zhu".

I’m not sure that anything he’s done or said so far in the story can be seen as ‘helping’ Ryo.
Technically he lead Ryo toward Shenhua, so there's that.

How did the Chi You Men know that Ryo was heading to Bailu Village?
They didn't. They knew that the mirrors were made there.

How did Niaosun know that Ryo had the Phoenix mirror?
S3 never explains this (or who Niao Sun is for that matter).

Why did Yu’s man (the pawn shop owner in Kowloon) hand Ryo over to the yellow heads?
Do you mean Yang, the owner of the herb shop? He used to work as an informant for Zhu but was threatened by Dou Niu. The only person who knew Zhu is Zhang and he seems pretty cool.

Why did Iwao never mention Zhu to Ryo if they were friends?
Iwao never mentioned anything about China, he was very sneaky.

How did Zhu know that the chi you men would be coming to find the mirrors?
Bingo. This is emblematic of a problem that Shenmue suffers from a lot which is how do characters know what they know when they know it? How does everyone suddenly know where Lan Di is headed next at the end of every game? How did Zhang not know where Zhu was when he was in Wan Chai, and then magically learn his location in Kowloon? How did Yuan know about the Cliff Temple, and that the CYM had taken it over? Furthermore how does anyone know anything about the mirrors?

Side note: it really seems like Zhu's speech from S2 and Yuan's from S3's should be switched. Zhu, Sunming Zhao's best friend, should know that he was entrusted with the mirrors and that his son was raised by the CYM and Yuan, the descendant of the man who made the mirrors and keeps their blueprints in his house, should know about the light pattern hidden in the mirror.

Ah ok my bad. 6am reading kicking in.
I blame the roman numerals lol.
 
Bingo. This is emblematic of a problem that Shenmue suffers from a lot which is how do characters know what they know when they know it? How does everyone suddenly know where Lan Di is headed next at the end of every game? How did Zhang not know where Zhu was when he was in Wan Chai, and then magically learn his location in Kowloon? How did Yuan know about the Cliff Temple, and that the CYM had taken it over? Furthermore how does anyone know anything about the mirrors?

Chai and the Mad Angels knew that Lan Di was heading to Hong Kong because they helped to arrange the journey, but what if Zhu didn’t know where Lan Di was heading and simply sent Ryo somewhere that he could later send Lan Di? Zhang could have known where Zhu was the whole time but kept the information from Ryo until Zhu was ready for Ryo to find him. Yuan and his family are strongly linked to the mirrors and their history and so it makes sense that he would know about the cliff temple (he was in possession of the dagger that was needed to get the map until the end of S2). He was also interrogated for weeks by the thugs and the Chi Yu Men and so it figures that they got the information about the cliff temple from him and he assumed they’d taken it over (or they took it over after interrogating and then came back for more information upon finding that the treasure wasn’t there). People know about the mirrors in much the same way that Ryo and the player do. They’re told by others.

I don’t trust Zhu and think there’s much more to his character than we’ve been led to believe.
 
what if Zhu didn’t know where Lan Di was heading and simply sent Ryo somewhere that he could later send Lan Di? Zhang could have known where Zhu was the whole time but kept the information from Ryo until Zhu was ready for Ryo to find him.
It's certainly possible but to what end? Zhu, Lan Di, and Ryo were all present atop the Yellowhead Building. Surely whatever Zhu was planning could have taken place then, no?

Yuan and his family are strongly linked to the mirrors and their history and so it makes sense that he would know about the cliff temple (he was in possession of the dagger that was needed to get the map until the end of S2). He was also interrogated for weeks by the thugs and the Chi Yu Men and so it figures that they got the information about the cliff temple from him and he assumed they’d taken it over (or they took it over after interrogating and then came back for more information upon finding that the treasure wasn’t there).
I guess it kind of makes sense that he knows about the Cliff Temple (even though I would assume that no one in Bailu had seen the map since it was locked away), but how would he know anything about Sunming Zhao or Lan Di? He also knows that Lan Di is at the Cliff Temple with the mirror... how? He says the mirrors were stored there... OK what does that have to do with anything? In S2 it makes sense: Lan Di is headed to Guilin and Bailu Village is where the mirrors were made, so it's the next logical place to go but S3 fails to illustrate what's at the Cliff Temple or why it would be an important next step. The mirrors used to be there, but so what?

People know about the mirrors in much the same way that Ryo and the player do. They’re told by others.
But the mirrors are only 76 years old! They were locked in the Cliff Temple until Sunming Zhao took them (~1950s-60s) and then Iwao took them back to Japan in the '60s. The mirrors were only around for 60ish years before Iwao took them and for most of that time they were at the Cliff Temple or they were in the possession of one man. Remember, the people who made the mirrors know nothing about them, so who does?

(EDIT)
I don’t trust Zhu and think there’s much more to his character than we’ve been led to believe.
This is true because the big unknown is how Lan Di knew Iwao had one of the mirrors.
 
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That's what I mean, Zhu was either lying to Chen or Ryo. Suzuki has said "Zhu lies to protect his friends" (or something like that) and as of S3, it appears he was lying to Master Chen.
Ah, okay. I see what you mean then.

Shenmue 3 has the blind woman literally say the dragon is the emperor, the phoenix is the empress, and the treasure is the the treasure hidden in their palace after Shenhua finds a scroll depicting a dragon and a phoenix floating over 2 chests filled with gold. This is a pretty definitive confirmation imo.
I still wouldn't call it definitive confirmation. That's the way Elder Yeh interprets the scroll, but it still could easily end up being something other than a literal treasure.

The blueprints are from 1910, when the mirrors were first made. I was expecting the use of Phantom River Stone to be important, especially because in S2, we find out that Yuan was hearing "voices from the stone", but we learn nothing about it and it's only found in Bailu Village. Why would the people who made the mirrors, carved giant reliefs of them into a quarry, and recite a poem about dragons and phoenixes and destiny not know anything?
Yeah, I see now about the blueprints. I had forgotten that Shenmue III explicitly states that the blueprints from Shenhua's house were given to Yuan's grandfather by the imperial envoy. This does seem to make my theory about history repeating itself with the mirrors hold less water.

Can you refresh my memory about the "voices from the stone" thing? It sounds interesting, but I don't remember anything about it.

I agree that Yuan should know all about the mirrors, but the other villagers wouldn't necessarily know.

Bingo. This is emblematic of a problem that Shenmue suffers from a lot which is how do characters know what they know when they know it? How does everyone suddenly know where Lan Di is headed next at the end of every game? How did Zhang not know where Zhu was when he was in Wan Chai, and then magically learn his location in Kowloon? How did Yuan know about the Cliff Temple, and that the CYM had taken it over? Furthermore how does anyone know anything about the mirrors?

Side note: it really seems like Zhu's speech from S2 and Yuan's from S3's should be switched. Zhu, Sunming Zhao's best friend, should know that he was entrusted with the mirrors and that his son was raised by the CYM and Yuan, the descendant of the man who made the mirrors and keeps their blueprints in his house, should know about the light pattern hidden in the mirror.
Yes, I definitely agree with all of this. In every Shenmue game, there are one or two scenes in which an important NPC gives you a big exposition dump. But they always end up contradicting each other and it's never explained how certain people know certain things. They just serve to move the story along and send Ryo on his way to the next location/plot point, and they rarely make complete sense when scrutinized. It honestly makes some of these discussions feel a bit pointless because regardless of what we learned in this game from Yuan or Elder Yeh, the details can always be altered in the next game.

I've come to realize that Shenmue's story itself is not really that great and is often contradictory. It has enough mystery and intrigue to make you want to see what happens next, but it doesn't really hold up under scrutiny. It's the atmosphere and the way the games are presented that makes the experience so special. Because of this, I'm able to just accept what I'm told in each game and overlook most story inconsistencies or things that don't have explanations. That's why the story in Shenmue III didn't really bother me much. If the game had a few more memorable character interactions, fights, and setpieces, it would have been almost perfect. The game still felt like Shenmue to me and it left the door open for the series to continue on. The story can always take more interesting turns in the next game, even if it contradicts some things from this game. If all the major plot points get resolved in a satisfying way, I won't really care that much if all of the information from all of the games doesn't quite add up.

This game still kept enough of the mysterious and supernatural elements in tact, in my opinion. It is still implied on multiple occasions that Shenhua has special powers and is not exactly a normal person. But I guess I can see what you mean about it being a soft reboot in that respect, as it doesn't really build upon the supernatural elements that were already established in Shenmue II. I think this was done because of the fact that things were never really meant to get as weird as they did at the end of Shenmue II and, as you stated, Suzuki wanted the game to go out with a bang. So he probably just decided to tone it back down until later in the series.

I also agree that it feels like the things that Zhu knew and the things that Yuan knew should have been reversed.

To the best of my knowledge, we have nothing other than Zhou’s word to suggest that Iwao and Zhu even knew each other, let alone that they were friends.
Well, there is the fact that Master Chen claims that Iwao and Zhu brought the mirrors to Japan together. Or more precisely, "Zhu and [Iwao] brought back a certain mirror from China."
 
I still wouldn't call it definitive confirmation. That's the way Elder Yeh interprets the scroll, but it still could easily end up being something other than a literal treasure.
It could very well be, all I meant is that it's confirmation of what Zhu says in S2. If the scroll had shown a monster instead, that would've been confirmation of what Chen (and somehow still Zhu) said. It doesn't even make sense to be a monetary treasure, the CYM don't exactly seem starved for cash; they wear silk robes, hire armies of henchmen, hang out in palaces, and travel in branded helicopters.

Can you refresh my memory about the "voices from the stone" thing? It sounds interesting, but I don't remember anything about it.


Around 12:20. I forgot that it's an optional thing but it's when Ryo examines the hunk of Phantom River Stone in Shenhua's house. Could be nothing but I thought it was setting us up to learn more about it in S3.

I agree that Yuan should know all about the mirrors, but the other villagers wouldn't necessarily know.
True, though Elder Yeh recognizes the phoenix mirror instantly by touching it and seems to know about the prophecy as she repeats what Yuan wrote in the letter. Though I wouldn't expect random villagers to be able to tell Ryo anything.

It honestly makes some of these discussions feel a bit pointless because regardless of what we learned in this game from Yuan or Elder Yeh, the details can always be altered in the next game.
I never got the sense that Shenmue did this until S3, but it definitely casts doubt on the other incongruities in the series for sure.

I've come to realize that Shenmue's story itself is not really that great and is often contradictory. It has enough mystery and intrigue to make you want to see what happens next, but it doesn't really hold up under scrutiny. It's the atmosphere and the way the games are presented that makes the experience so special. Because of this, I'm able to just accept what I'm told in each game and overlook most story inconsistencies or things that don't have explanations.
In terms of the previous games, I figured it was going to be something like Game of Thrones or Harry Potter; where the story makes sense in the broad strokes but minor details (like how Ryo suddenly learns how to speak Chinese) wouldn't really hold up to scrutiny. GoT (the books) has a famous timeline issue where characters are far too young for their respective rolls in the story, and Harry Potter introduced time travel in the third book that should have nullified all the problems. Regardless, one of the big selling points, especially of S3, was that Suzuki had this epic saga written down and planned for 20+ years and he was finally going to continue the story, so the story being disappointing is huge for me.

The story can always take more interesting turns in the next game, even if it contradicts some things from this game. If all the major plot points get resolved in a satisfying way, I won't really care that much if all of the information from all of the games doesn't quite add up.
Agreed.

This game still kept enough of the mysterious and supernatural elements in tact, in my opinion. It is still implied on multiple occasions that Shenhua has special powers and is not exactly a normal person. But I guess I can see what you mean about it being a soft reboot in that respect, as it doesn't really build upon the supernatural elements that were already established in Shenmue II. I think this was done because of the fact that things were never really meant to get as weird as they did at the end of Shenmue II and, as you stated, Suzuki wanted the game to go out with a bang. So he probably just decided to tone it back down until later in the series.
S3 doesn't outright break any of the established plot since, as you mentioned, almost anything can be undone. The closest it comes is with the age of the mirrors, there's a very small window for them to have become so "legendary" that all these people know little bits and pieces of information about them. We'll see.

Well, there is the fact that Master Chen claims that Iwao and Zhu brought the mirrors to Japan together. Or more precisely, "Zhu and [Iwao] brought back a certain mirror from China."
I totally forgot about that, good point.
 
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