Supernatural Elements in Shenmue IV and Beyond

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

We all know that the Shenmue series has some mystical elements that started all the way back in Shenmue: Chapter One Yokosuka. We have the prophecy, the Dragon and Phoenix mirrors supposedly being keys to unlocking Chiyou, Ryo’s mysterious dreams prior to meeting Shenhua, the floating sword/dagger (which Suzuki has stated was less “magic” and more “natural energy”), the Shenmue tree having an actual “soul”, along with Shenhua’s entire character overall. So it has been established that Shenmue does have some supernatural elements to it which I believe will play a role in the story moving forward.

For me, one of the appeals of Shenmue is that the series is low fantasy (or magic realism) which makes said events a real treat. It feels as if something is there that you cannot see yet is omnipresent. I do not think it should be anywhere on the same level as Shenmue Online, but I can definitely see Shenmue embracing this aspect of its story. So I guess the question is how far should the story go with these elements?

 

[Dg1995]

I want no supernatural elements for Ryo and Lan Di. For Shenhua probably it will make some sense due to the role she is going to play in the whole storyline.
I really hope Ryo vs Lan Di fight NEVER turns out like this:

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

I want no supernatural elements for Ryo and Lan Di. For Shenhua probably it makes some sense for the role she is going to play in the whole storyline.
I really hope Ryo vs Lan Di fight NEVER turns out like this:

All that was missing in that video was a kamehameha wave.

 

[WuyingRen]

It feels as though the developers went out of their way to tone back the mystical elements as the series progressed and to be honest, I’m okay with that.

We went from the mirrors being some ancient artifacts with the power to revive Chi-Yu to them being less than 100 years old and a glorified treasure map (this change happened as early as 2 and was further solidified in 3). We went from a magical floating sword to an ordinary dagger. We went from Shenhua blasting fireballs in Shenmue Online and Project Barkly footage to hints of some persuasive ability that’s only seen offscreen and mention of talking with animals and plant life.

I think some of the mystical elements will remain (specifically those surrounding Shenhua and the prophecy), but I don’t see it leading too far into the realms of impossibility anymore whereas that seemed to be where the story was taking us at one point.

Edit: Don’t want to make a new thread to ask this so may as well ask here as it fits the topic; but does Ryo ever actually acknowledge that he had seen Shenhua in his dreams prior to their meeting? I could be wrong, but I don’t recall him having ever done so. Could the dream sequences simply be footage of Shenhua praying for their meeting juxtaposed with scenes of Ryo sleeping rather than what he is actually dreaming about? I feel as though if I’d been having dreams about a random woman and then met her months later thousands of miles away I might see it as kind of a big deal!

 

[code l name]

Don’t want to make a new thread to ask this so may as well ask here as it fits the topic; but does Ryo ever actually acknowledge that he had seen Shenhua in his dreams prior to their meeting? I could be wrong, but I don’t recall him having ever done so. Could the dream sequences simply be footage of Shenhua praying for their meeting juxtaposed with scenes of Ryo sleeping rather than what he is actually dreaming about? I feel as though if I’d been having dreams about a random woman and then met her months later thousands of miles away I might see it as kind of a big deal!

To my understanding it’s never acknowledged. I don’t think it’s a coincidence Ryo started dreaming of Shenhua only when he revived the dragon mirror from the basement.

 

[Reprise]

We went from the mirrors being some ancient artifacts with the power to revive Chi-Yu to them being less than 100 years old and a glorified treasure map (this change happened as early as 2 and was further solidified in 3). We went from a magical floating sword to an ordinary dagger.

These bits kinda annoyed me to be honest. The mirrors being less than 100 years old and just treasure maps is pretty boring.

 

[Sh3ppy]

These bits kinda annoyed me to be honest. The mirrors being less than 100 years old and just treasure maps is pretty boring.

I think there will be more to it than that tbh.

The mirrors not being older was surprising though. Would rather they were properly ancient.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

These bits kinda annoyed me to be honest. The mirrors being less than 100 years old and just treasure maps is pretty boring.

Agreed. While this remains to be seen, it seems like S3 has retconned or changed the trajectory of the story.

I for one loved the subtle mysticism in Shenmue 2. A little bit of magical realism went a long way in a story like this that moves slowly but was presented excellently, and the final three hours of Shenmue 2 are really the only reason I've hung onto this series for so long.

I was definitely disappointed Shenmue 3 had less and not more of what we saw in Disc 4 of Shenmue 2: the floating sword, the electric zap Shenhua and Ryo got when they touched it at the same time, Shenhua using ki to insert the sword and blow the dandelions, the allusion that the Shenmue tree actually had a purpose and wasn't just a pretty prop, etc.

I am hoping the rest of the series dives back into these elements.

 

[BalHan]

Edit: Don’t want to make a new thread to ask this so may as well ask here as it fits the topic; but does Ryo ever actually acknowledge that he had seen Shenhua in his dreams prior to their meeting? I could be wrong, but I don’t recall him having ever done so. Could the dream sequences simply be footage of Shenhua praying for their meeting juxtaposed with scenes of Ryo sleeping rather than what he is actually dreaming about? I feel as though if I’d been having dreams about a random woman and then met her months later thousands of miles away I might see it as kind of a big deal!

In one of my playthroughs of Shenmue II, I wanted to hear as much dialogue between Ryo and Fangmei as possible and I was taken aback when Ryo talks about a mysterious girl he keeps on seeing in his dreams as I assumed that Ryo never acknowledges that he had seen her in his dreams. Ryo talks to Fangmei about her in Man Mo Temple.

So I’m pretty sure Ryo recognises Shenhua running on the river bank before he jumps in the river to save her. Perhaps he jumps in to save her because he recognises her. Or maybe he would have risked his life to save her regardless.

What’s interesting is that Ryo has never mentioned his dreams to Shenhua. Maybe he doesn’t want to scare her lol.

 

[otbr87]

I would like to see whatever happens as we go forward based on quantum physics and real life energy and energetic exchange/quantum mechanics. I'm hoping that events like the energy spark between them could be a way that the game displays how energy exchanges work in real life on the quantum field, rather than some supernatural comic book like display. I'm ok with it either way since its a video game and is ultimately fantasy art at the end of the day as all games are, but if Suzuki writes the story from a reality approach with very little(possibly no) artificial phenomena and rather displays his scientific understanding of the way things work can provide a deeper experience than what other video games/entertainment typically display that would be amazing, especially with all of the spiritual undertones found in the Japanese and Chinese lore he has already incorporated into the storyline. If the 'ChiYou' demon ends up being a folk lore creature that energetically works its evil through others(think a form of possession, dark energy, pure evil, etc) rather than an actual creature that appears that would be ideal than it actually coming out as a monster in the physical realm of the games storyline. I'm ok with either, but I strongly feel Suzuki will miss the message with Shenmue if he takes it into complete fantasy story telling. Part of what makes Shenmue unique and deep is its energy that comes across as thought provoking and it's heroes journey that so far has been mainly a real phenomena within its story telling with just enough small elements of fantasy(1 or 2 per game at most)that make you go 'hmm?'.

 

[tdp903]

I think a Last Dragon approach would be kind of neat.

Spoiler: In case you haven't seen the movie

This would allow Shenmue to maintain it's realism and typical slice-of-life elements without getting bogged down with actual celestial creatures or hadokens or whatever. Just have it all unleashed at the very end as all the puzzle pieces come together. Even in this clip, they still kept the fighting realistic, just juiced up with power of the glow.

 

[B-Man]

In one of my playthroughs of Shenmue II, I wanted to hear as much dialogue between Ryo and Fangmei as possible and I was taken aback when Ryo talks about a mysterious girl he keeps on seeing in his dreams as I assumed that Ryo never acknowledges that he had seen her in his dreams. Ryo talks to Fangmei about her in Man Mo Temple.

So I’m pretty sure Ryo recognises Shenhua running on the river bank before he jumps in the river to save her. Perhaps he jumps in to save her because he recognises her. Or maybe he would have risked his life to save her regardless.

What’s interesting is that Ryo has never mentioned his dreams to Shenhua. Maybe he doesn’t want to scare her lol.

In Shenmue III, Ryo can reference his dreams about Shenhua in a telephone conversation with Nozomi if you use the backer phone card. He doesn't seem to remember what gender the person in the dreams was and Nozomi even asks Ryo if the person was Shenhua. He says that he doesn't remember well enough to be sure.

This kind of makes sense, since we often don't remember our dreams very well (or at all) and sometimes the details of them become foggier as time passes. So it's possible that when he spoke to Fangmei he still remembered that it was a mysterious girl, but by the time he meets Shenhua he doesn't recognize her. Then perhaps he forgot if the person was even male or female by the time he gets to Niaowu in Shenmue III.

However, he does mention that he thinks that Shenhua, the dreams, the prophecy, and the mirrors are all connected somehow. So I think that perhaps he does subconsciously remember Shenhua, the mirrors, the Shenmue tree, etc. appearing in his dreams.

 

[scooterusa]

Agreed. While this remains to be seen, it seems like S3 has retconned or changed the trajectory of the story.

I for one loved the subtle mysticism in Shenmue 2. A little bit of magical realism went a long way in a story like this that moves slowly but was presented excellently, and the final three hours of Shenmue 2 are really the only reason I've hung onto this series for so long.

I was definitely disappointed Shenmue 3 had less and not more of what we saw in Disc 4 of Shenmue 2: the floating sword, the electric zap Shenhua and Ryo got when they touched it at the same time, Shenhua using ki to insert the sword and blow the dandelions, the allusion that the Shenmue tree actually had a purpose and wasn't just a pretty prop, etc.

I am hoping the rest of the series dives back into these elements.

I for one was horrified by the floating sword back when i first saw it. It seemed out of the blue and really took me out of the game. I’m glad it’s gone.

 

[orient]

I'm fine with hints of mysticism that eventually crescendo into a high-stakes "magical" scene -- that's what I've always thought would happen. I never, ever thought we'd reach a point where Ryo's throwing fireballs or whatever. Shenmue Online is not indicative of where the series is headed and never was.

Personally, I don't think Shenmue III altered the intent of the original story (broadly speaking). The most obvious change, the sword, was most likely done for tonal reasons. Starting the game with a floating magical sword just doesn't fit well in a game that isn't about magic. It'd open up so many questions (for new players especially) and just isn't what they want the player to be focussed on.

It was also mentioned in another thread that the age of the mirrors was never specified in I and II, only that they unlock a treasure of the Qing Dynasty, which ended in 1911 (when the emperor came to Bailu). So yeah, I don't see how that couldn't have been intended from the start.

 

[BalHan]

In Shenmue III, Ryo can reference his dreams about Shenhua in a telephone conversation with Nozomi if you use the backer phone card. He doesn't seem to remember what gender the person in the dreams was and Nozomi even asks Ryo if the person was Shenhua. He says that he doesn't remember well enough to be sure.

This kind of makes sense, since we often don't remember our dreams very well (or at all) and sometimes the details of them become foggier as time passes. So it's possible that when he spoke to Fangmei he still remembered that it was a mysterious girl, but by the time he meets Shenhua he doesn't recognize her. Then perhaps he forgot if the person was even male or female by the time he gets to Niaowu in Shenmue III.

However, he does mention that he thinks that Shenhua, the dreams, the prophecy, and the mirrors are all connected somehow. So I think that perhaps he does subconsciously remember Shenhua, the mirrors, the Shenmue tree, etc. appearing in his dreams.

I'd really like to see a video of the dialogue between Ryo and Fangmei about Ryo's dreams again. I've searched on YouTube for it but can't find it. I'm sure Ryo refers to the person as 'she'. If I'm right then the writers of Shenmue 3 either wouldn't have known about the dialogue or they hoped that no one had seen it(surely not lol).

I do not buy that Ryo has simply forgotten whether the person is male or female. It's either a contradiction or retcon or maybe Ryo doesn't want to make Nozomi jealous lol.

 

[B-Man]

I'd really like to see a video of the dialogue between Ryo and Fangmei about Ryo's dreams again. I've searched on YouTube for it but can't find it. I'm sure Ryo refers to the person as 'she'. If I'm right then the writers of Shenmue 3 either wouldn't have known about the dialogue or they hoped that no one had seen it(surely not lol).

I do not buy that Ryo has simply forgotten whether the person is male or female. It's either a contradiction or retcon or maybe Ryo doesn't want to make Nozomi jealous lol.

I agree that you can't take the dialogue from these phone conversations as absolute gospel, considering the translation/localization errors that are present in some of them. The fact that he uses gender-neutral pronouns doesn't positively indicate that he doesn't remember it was a girl.

However, I fully believe that he does not recognize Shenhua from his dreams and that he was never meant to. Surely, he would have mentioned it if he did. He would have either brought it up while talking to Shenhua or quietly mentioned it to himself. At the very least, he would have written something about it in his notebook.

It is quite easy to believe that he doesn't remember the face of a girl that appeared in some of his dreams back in Yokosuka. He does say that he gets the feeling he's seen the person somewhere before, but I'm not sure if he's referring to his memory of the dreams now or the way he felt while he was having the dreams.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

It was also mentioned in another thread that the age of the mirrors was never specified in I and II, only that they unlock a treasure of the Qing Dynasty, which ended in 1911 (when the emperor came to Bailu). So yeah, I don't see how that couldn't have been intended from the start.

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/village-legend-ancient-emporer-conversation-on-cloud-bird-trail.2450/

I did address some potential inconsistencies in this thread^ It is true the end of the Qing Dynasty, which was mentioned in Shenmue 2 but Zhu, corresponds with the date of 1910 given in Shenmue 3.

However, Shenhua also explicitly mentions an ancient legend of two mirrors at the very end of Shenmue 2. Not only does she seem to have totally forgotten speaking of such a legend, very few people in Bailu end up knowing anything about the mirrors - and the creation of such mirrors, we learn, is much more recent than "ancient times"

Of course, there may have been a pair of mirrors from long ago and the recent/current set is history repeating itself in some fashion. There is obvious still an ancient element to all of this (Shenhua's destiny since ancient times, her experiencing the feeling of "hundreds of birthdays" etc)

It may all make sense in the end, but as it stands it's a little confusing and perhaps contradictory.

 

[B-Man]

Of course, there may have been a pair of mirrors from long ago and the recent/current set is history repeating itself in some fashion.

I think that this is the most likely explanation. The dragon and phoenix designs already existed, as seen on the banners being carried by the envoy. It's possible that an ancient set of mirrors existed and was lost over time or maybe buried with the emperor and empress. Then, the current emperor sent an imperial envoy to the place where the original mirrors were created to have a new set made "in order to revive the Qing Dynasty." The original mirrors could have been carved by Yuan's more ancient ancestors, while the current ones were carved by his grandparents.

I don't think it's that unusual that most people in Bailu Village don't know much about the mirrors. Judging by Shenhua's recollection of the legend, it doesn't sound like it was that specific. She doesn't mention anything about a dragon or a phoenix, only that the mirrors were made of Phantom River Stone and that they were believed to have a hidden power which some died fighting over. The thing that prompted her to think of it was hearing that the same man who stole the Dragon Mirror from Iwao also killed him, not that they had dragon and phoenix designs. Even if everyone in the village knows the legend, there wouldn't necessarily be a reason for them to bring it up to Ryo. And Shenhua never says that she thinks these mirrors are actually the ones from the legend, just that the story of Iwao and Lan Di reminds her of it and makes her scared that something evil will happen.

I originally assumed that the mirrors were older as well, but I don't think that it's a retcon. I don't believe that the year of their creation perfectly lining up with the end of the Qing Dynasty can be a coincidence. I know that Shenmue III's writing didn't instill a lot of confidence for many people, but I get the feeling that this is something that will actually be explained later on. I feel like it's not a contradiction or a retcon; we just don't have all the details yet.

Sorry that I didn't post this in the thread you started. I never saw it until now.

 

[iknifaugood]

It was also mentioned in another thread that the age of the mirrors was never specified in I and II, only that they unlock a treasure of the Qing Dynasty, which ended in 1911 (when the emperor came to Bailu). So yeah, I don't see how that couldn't have been intended from the start.

It's definitely possible that this was what was intended by S2 but the big outstanding issue is still Chi You, whose origins date back to around 2500 BCE. In S1, Master Chen says the mirrors will revive Chi You and he learned that info from Yuanda Zhu, so why would Zhu lie? Also even in the bad ending to S2, the phoenix mirror cracks and Lan Di says he wants to take Shenhua's power for the Chi You and, let's not forget, he works for an organization called the Chi You Men. What could any of this have to do with Chi You if there are characters in S1 older than the mirrors?

I always thought the story from Chen and Zhu were both wrong (like how in Raiders of the Lost Ark, we learn that the ark is a weapon and then a radio, but it's neither of those things) but, barring some Nibelheim-esque twist where everyone in Bailu Village has been bribed into lying to Ryo, it seems to confirm with 100% certainty that the mirrors are 76 years old and that they are keys to a literal treasure. Why this treasure was hidden one year before the end of the Qing dynasty when it could supposedly "revive" it is anyone's guess.

There is obvious still an ancient element to all of this (Shenhua's destiny since ancient times, her experiencing the feeling of "hundreds of birthdays" etc)

I don't think that's obvious after playing S3, sadly. However, to my knowledge Lan Di's organization is still called the Chi You Men, so I would hope that's on the list of things Suzuki needs to clear up before the story ends.

It may all make sense in the end, but as it stands it's a little confusing and perhaps contradictory.

I originally assumed that the mirrors were older as well, but I don't think that it's a retcon. I don't believe that the year of their creation perfectly lining up with the end of the Qing Dynasty can be a coincidence. I know that Shenmue III's writing didn't instill a lot of confidence for many people, but I get the feeling that this is something that will actually be explained later on. I feel like it's not a contradiction or a retcon; we just don't have all the details yet.

I think that the scope and direction of the story has been dramatically altered, especially if it's going to end in 1 more game. If I recall correctly, S3 was supposed to move the story as much or more than S2 (at least in terms of chapters). If S4 is going to be the end, YS needs to reveal what happened in Meng Cun, Shenhua's real parents, what's at the cliff temple, what the mirrors actually do/what the treasure is (and what the CYM want), and resolve the conflict between Ryo, Lan Di and Niao Sun. I just don't think we're getting another big lore dump about the history of the mirrors; that's what Bailu Village was for. I don't think the story can avoid being contradictory at this point.

 

[Sh3ppy]

It's definitely possible that this was what was intended by S2 but the big outstanding issue is still Chi You, whose origins date back to around 2500 BCE. In S1, Master Chen says the mirrors will revive Chi You and he learned that info from Yuanda Zhu, so why would Zhu lie? Also even in the bad ending to S2, the phoenix mirror cracks and Lan Di says he wants to take Shenhua's power for the Chi You and, let's not forget, he works for an organization called the Chi You Men. What could any of this have to do with Chi You if there are characters in S1 older than the mirrors?

I always thought the story from Chen and Zhu were both wrong (like how in Raiders of the Lost Ark, we learn that the ark is a weapon and then a radio, but it's neither of those things) but, barring some Nibelheim-esque twist where everyone in Bailu Village has been bribed into lying to Ryo, it seems to confirm with 100% certainty that the mirrors are 76 years old and that they are keys to a literal treasure. Why this treasure was hidden one year before the end of the Qing dynasty when it could supposedly "revive" it is anyone's guess.


I don't think that's obvious after playing S3, sadly. However, to my knowledge Lan Di's organization is still called the Chi You Men, so I would hope that's on the list of things Suzuki needs to clear up before the story ends.



I think that the scope and direction of the story has been dramatically altered, especially if it's going to end in 1 more game. If I recall correctly, S3 was supposed to move the story as much or more than S2 (at least in terms of chapters). If S4 is going to be the end, YS needs to reveal what happened in Meng Cun, Shenhua's real parents, what's at the cliff temple, what the mirrors actually do/what the treasure is (and what the CYM want), and resolve the conflict between Ryo, Lan Di and Niao Sun. I just don't think we're getting another big lore dump about the history of the mirrors; that's what Bailu Village was for. I don't think the story can avoid being contradictory at this point.

I don’t think we’ve had any indication that S4 will be the last game. Based on what I’ve read I was under the impression the aim is to get to 5.