The negativity surrounding Shenmue3

[Guppy]

I don't understand this argument. Sure, having pre-order bonuses is a good thing to incentivize people to pay early, I don't think anyone denies that. But the issue is also not giving those bonuses to backers. And it's not like they would make more money since these are, you know, pre-order bonuses that aren't for sale otherwise. Giving this to backers would cost them zero and not have any impact on initial retail sales.

First, please read the meaning of EXCLUSIVE. Second, regardless of reason giving things for free means loss of potential sale.

Now you are being obnoxious. They have already confirmed refunds, and the money comes from Epic, so by saying that you are either a fervent Epic supporter or mean-spirited towards those who have genuine concerns.

Thank you. I still wish you denial on your refund request. I'm neither supporter nor mean-spirited. You see, it's clear that you are inclined to buy the retail version no matter what so you would contribute towards sales and if Ysnet still keeps your backer's money it will contribute towards the series longevity. See? It's for a good cause. No malice there.

 

[shibeouya]

Thank you. I still wish you denial on your refund request. I'm neither supporter nor mean-spirited. You see, it's clear that you are inclined to buy the retail version no matter what so you would contribute towards sales and if Ysnet still keeps your backer's money it will contribute towards the series longevity. See? It's for a good cause. No malice there.

I think you got it reversed. If I get a refund it will actually benefit YS Net. If I get a refund the money comes from Epic (confirmed) so no harm to YS Net, and then once I pre-order it again on PSN YS Net gets the money. Me getting a refund will essentially allow YS Net to have twice the money for the game. By saying you wish denial on refund requests, you are actually wishing less money for YS Net.

 

[Cebman]

Just to clarify, refunds are for those unhappy about the Epic deal, that had selected a PC version. The Kickstarter has yet to acknowledge refunding over preorder bonuses. Epic did say refunds would come out of their pocket, but I believe that too dealt with the PC deal. I highly doubt Tim Sweeney is willing to pay refunds to PS4 users upset about preorder bonuses that Epic had nothing to do with.

 

[shibeouya]

Just to clarify, refunds are for those unhappy about the Epic deal, that had selected a PC version. The Kickstarter has yet to acknowledge refunding over preorder bonuses. Epic did say refunds would come out of their pocket, but I believe that too dealt with the PC deal. I highly doubt Tim Sweeney is willing to pay refunds to PS4 users upset about preorder bonuses that Epic had nothing to do with.

That is correct, and I had selected as such, then changed my mind to PS4, then changed my mind again to PC after they announce refunds. I had asked YS Net in PM and they had confirmed it was still fine to switch again to PC now.

To be honest, without them locking the surveys and still saying people can still switch, anyone can get a refund.

 

[spud1897]

@Cebman agreed I've got an e-mail from the Kickstarter Team to that effect. PC only refunds. I'd be shocked if they refunded anything PS4 at all. They aren't obliged to but as a PR exercise they could give backers something to sweeten the deal, not that I personally mind. I'm getting Shenmue III in all its glory and that's good enough for me.

On a side note can we stop goading each other on both sides of this discussion. I'd rather not have to lock the thread but if we keep going through the same cycle that's what will happen.

 

[Guppy]

I've only ever backed Bloodstained Slacker Backer before and yes, now that you guys mentioned it, yes apparently they did give this 8-Bit style Bloodstained spinoff to backers for free. I backed the physical ps4 version but it seems they automatically gave you a steam key for the spinoff unless you told them otherwise before some deadline. It seems that email went straight to my spam folder and so I missed the deadline and got a steam key for that spinoff game even though I don't play on pc. How on earth they do not automatically give you the spinoff for the same platform you backed the core game for is beyond me but I just didn't give enough of a fuck about it. Those "pseudo 8-Bit games aren't really my thing.

So yeah, other Kickstarter campaigns have been more generous to backers I guess. I totally agree with you guys that it was a dumb pr move on YS Net and Deep Silver's part not to give that away to backers for free but my point still stands. No reason to create a fuss about it. Those people were looking for reasons to be outraged about. They'll take even something as insignificant as this and get all worked up about it.

I just find it incredibly disappointing and unprofessional on Deep Silver's part. I mean, Yu is an old geezer who doesn't have the slightest clue how social media or the internet in general work. I get that and I don't blame him for it. I just think there should have been younger people at YS Net or social media people at Deep Silver who would tell him that the last thing you want to do on the internet is feeding the trolls. And that preorder bonus move was troll feed at its finest.

As a fellow Bloodstained backer, I have to correct you on the spin-off game being free. Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon was just one of the many stretch goals that the team fulfilled as part of the deal they had with their backers. There was nothing generous about it. If you want to make a fair comparison to what's happening to Shenmue 3 then Iga should have been handling free exclusive pre-order retail steelbooks and PS4 themes to backers, but that didn't happen.

 

[Reprise]

As a fellow Bloodstained backer, I have to correct you on the spin-off game being free. Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon was just one of the many stretch goals that the team fulfilled as part of the deal they had with their backers. There was nothing generous about it. If you want to make a fair comparison to what's happening to Shenmue 3 then Iga should have been handling free exclusive pre-order retail steelbooks and PS4 themes to backers, but that didn't happen.

Good point. People who pre-ordered Bloodstained got steelbooks. Backers didn't... Quick everyone, let's all get outraged!

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

But honestly if it's not true regarding pre-orders, I don't understand why YS Net is just dodging the question and replying with ambiguous answers. Like, they replied yesterday to my question about pre-order bonuses with the same answer about having to purchase DLC. Why are they unable to provide a clear unambiguous answer to this question if there is nothing to it? It's hard to fault people for imagining the worse case scenario in these circumstances.

Probably because the people who answer your questions aren't Y's Net directly, but someone from Awesome Japan using the Y's Net name. Even if it is Y's Net, it wouldn't change much. Deep Silver is the one who makes these decisions, Y's Net is simply under their thumb. So they either don't know because Deep Silver and/or Epic are keeping them in the dark. Or they do know but can't say anything as per their arrangement.

 

[GhostTrick]

As a fellow Bloodstained backer, I have to correct you on the spin-off game being free. Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon was just one of the many stretch goals that the team fulfilled as part of the deal they had with their backers. There was nothing generous about it. If you want to make a fair comparison to what's happening to Shenmue 3 then Iga should have been handling free exclusive pre-order retail steelbooks and PS4 themes to backers, but that didn't happen.

Nice try. But steelbooks are stuff made by retailers. People here arent asking for retail stuff but ingame content made by YsNet.

And the fact that you're telling backers to "rebuy the game" clearly shows you're missing the point.

It's funny because reading some people here, it's almost like backers are assholes for believing in the game before anyone else. And that they should be grateful to receive the game in the first place (even though they dont deserve it).

If you want to think that preorder bonuses shouldn't be given to backers too that's your opinion. Unfortunately, most of the other people dont think so. Call them entitled. Call that "outrage culture" or whatever. Keep thinking Deep Silver and YsNet can do no wrong.

I'll say it once again: even Mighty n9 didnt do that kind of shit. Now if you think the general public agrees with that kind of stuff, you might want to take a look on the reactions.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

The biggest mistake they made with the Kickstarter was acting like it was going to be all about fan input and that they'd actually listen to and interact with us. Beyond that first failed Twitch chat, we got very little interaction with Ys Net or anyone else involved with the project. You can still see traces of stuff like that all over the page. If you’re gonna do Kickstarter, hire great PR.

 

[GhostTrick]

The biggest mistake they made with the Kickstarter was acting like it was going to be all about fan input and that they'd actually listen to and interact with us. Beyond that first failed Twitch chat, we got very little interaction with Ys Net or anyone else involved with the project. You can still see traces of stuff like that all over the page. If you’re gonna do Kickstarter, hire great PR.

Fan inputs are important. Unfortunately, I dont feel like we were asked.

Now before anyone grabs the pitchfork:
I didn't say "ask the fans anything and let them weight on how the game will be".
But feedbacks on some matters could've been good.
We could've had surveys about logo choice. Surveys about the boxart choice. Surveys about some design questions qnd such. This is why Bloodstained has been better managed.

 

[WuyingRen]

Fan inputs are important. Unfortunately, I dont feel like we were asked.

Now before anyone grabs the pitchfork:
I didn't say "ask the fans anything and let them weight on how the game will be".
But feedbacks on some matters could've been good.
We could've had surveys about logo choice. Surveys about the boxart choice. Surveys about some design questions qnd such. This is why Bloodstained has been better managed.

Most people backed Yu Suzuki’s vision of Shenmue 3. Backer surveys would have only served to dilute that vision. I’m glad they didn’t pander to backers at every turn as I’ve come to realize over the past few months that many of the people that backed this project are, for want of a better word, idiots. One only needs to visit the Kickstarter comments section for confirmation of this.

 

[Guppy]

Nice try. But steelbooks are stuff made by retailers. People here arent asking for retail stuff but ingame content made by YsNet.

Steelbooks were made by whoever for retail in the same vein that the Shenmue 3 EXCLUSIVE in-game content pre-orders were made by Ysnet (in likely whatever agreement it had with DS) for retail. As the steelbook had design and manufacturing costs, these in-game items also cost man-hours to create, integrate and test them into the game for specific retailers. And yes specific retailers, because I didn't see Gamestop/EBgames or Amazon offering the same DLCs, costumes and technique scrolls from Sony Store or Epic Games. So yeah, I don't really see the difference.

And the fact that you're telling backers to "rebuy the game" clearly shows you're missing the point.

I didn't tell anyone to do anything, but just simply wished from my heart that refunds get refused. Apologies if that offended you. And yes, I might have missed the point that as backers we were entitled to ask for stuff beyond the Kickstarter agreement for free, or even have a say on how the design/art direction of some of the elements of the game should go (ie. logo, anything else?).

*Also by the way, as a Bloodstained backer (considerable high tier to boot) I certainly didn't have any creative input on the game at all. Also, they didn't go out of their way to give me anything more than what was estipulated by their Kickstarter campaign. So I don't see how or why people are saying they were generous compared to Shenmue 3.

 

[danielmann861]

Most people backed Yu Suzuki’s vision of Shenmue 3. Backer surveys would have only served to dilute that vision. I’m glad they didn’t pander to backers at every turn as I’ve come to realize over the past few months that many of the people that backed this project are, for want of a better word, idiots. One only needs to visit the Kickstarter comments section for confirmation of this.

This...I'd rather have a creators vision as opposed to a market tested beyond comprehension product. That's the exact reason why a good deal of modern day movies suck ass. Too many hands in the pot doesn't always pan out well

 

[shibeouya]

So yeah, I don't really see the difference.

Are we really arguing here that a steelbook with real manufacturing costs is the same as some digital jacket that costs nothing to replicate?

Personally I don't care about the retailer exclusive crap, but the in-game items created by the devs I do.

 

[GhostTrick]

Most people backed Yu Suzuki’s vision of Shenmue 3. Backer surveys would have only served to dilute that vision. I’m glad they didn’t pander to backers at every turn as I’ve come to realize over the past few months that many of the people that backed this project are, for want of a better word, idiots. One only needs to visit the Kickstarter comments section for confirmation of this.

It's almost as if I adressed your point:
I didnt talked about the game itself. I talked about the stuff around it. The campaign. Heck the bonuses. How is it betraying Yu's vision for the community to vote for the artwork on the sleeve ? Or have a community based reversible cover art ?
Or even vote for the bonus skin for backers ?

 

[GhostTrick]

Are we really arguing here that a steelbook with real manufacturing costs is the same as some digital jacket that costs nothing to replicate?

Personally I don't care about the retailer exclusive crap, but the in-game items created by the devs I do.

When someone doesnt, on purpose, see the difference between an ingame item that has very little production cost and can be generated as will and a steelbook that has nothing to do with the game itself and requires money to produce for everyone (and is handled by the retailer btw) you cant argue much more.

If some people dont want to see that, as meaningless as it is, it comes off as greedy for the entire world, let's stay in that bubble and pretend its fine that backers may have to pay for something non backers gets for free.

Even if fuckin Mighty N9 didnt come as low.

 

[WuyingRen]

It's almost as if I adressed your point:
I didnt talked about the game itself. I talked about the stuff around it. The campaign. Heck the bonuses. How is it betraying Yu's vision for the community to vote for the artwork on the sleeve ? Or have a community based reversible cover art ?
Or even vote for the bonus skin for backers ?

I really can’t imagine that there are too many backers out there that care too much about the logo or cover art, but if it really bothers you that much, you could always try reaching out to DS or YSNet to share your concerns? If that doesn’t interest you, you could always make your own cover for the game in photoshop.

Personally, I’d rather the dev team spent their time working on the actual game than wasting it creating multiple mock-ups of logos, box art and digital jackets, writing and sending out surveys, collating results and then implementing these trivial changes just to please a handful of fans.

These things take time and money and every moment and penny that is wasted on nonsense like this is time and money that is not being spent bettering the actual game.

 

[GhostTrick]

I really can’t imagine that there are too many backers out there that care too much about the logo or cover art, but if it really bothers you that much, you could always try reaching out to DS or YSNet to share your concerns? If that doesn’t interest you, you could always make your own cover for the game in photoshop.

Personally, I’d rather the dev team spent their time working on the actual game than wasting it creating multiple mock-ups of logos, box art and digital jackets, writing and sending out surveys, collating results and then implementing these trivial changes just to please a handful of fans.

These things take time and money and every moment and penny that is wasted on nonsense like this is time and money that is not being spent bettering the actual game.

But it's not the dev team job to do so. It's the job of Awesome Japan, Deep Silver or whoever they partnered with and freaking pay for it.

It's funny that Bloodstained publisher and partners have the time to do it often yet Shenmue III cant do it like two times a year.

Then again some people here are telling me "it was either an expanded game or a free jacket". If the choice was that, that means either the jacket is the most detailed one ever made or the expanded content is the cheapest one ever made.

And when people tell me "for Bloodstained, they promised a free game" okay. It was a stretch goal. Now what happen if the Character Perspective System apppears in some form in the DLCs ? Am I owed the DLC ? Or like the pre order content, I'd be "too entitled" ?

For real, I can understand that you may not want to raise concern because some publications just run click bait headlines. But it doesn't mean what's happening is right. It doesn't mean it's terrible either. It just mean that if preorder bonuses have to be paid by the people who dropped hundred of bucks in the game when it was nothing when new comers get it for free, then it's greedy af for the parties involved. Even if you and I dont care about getting those (I honestly dont care). But the picture it shows is a really bad one.

 

[Reprise]

I still can't believe we're arguing over pre-order bonuses. They're not even substantial ones. Even if we assume we're not getting them based on a few vague messages that don't specifically reference them, those messages say backers and slacker backers will be getting their own exclusive bonuses. So the chances are, we may well just be getting a different move scroll and outfit.

As for the steelbook "not counting" because of manufacturing costs, I thought the argument was over whether backers should receive the same pre-order bonuses as retail consumers... a steel book is a pre-order bonus. You can't just move the goal posts half way through the debate.