Updated Chi You Men Leaders Photo

It makes me really happy to see all this talk about The Chi You Men.
I really hope none of the other leaders were cut and we still get to see them in future games.

Note: I forgot to mention that I also reached out to Pix N Love to see if they are able to hand over the original artworks they used to make the book. I want that high quality stuff. They have not responded yet. (They can take a long time to respond sometimes)
 
@24Nathan thanks for confirming!
Did they have the Niao Sun image in there too? It's been way too long for me to remember what was on that site.
I only remember seeing her full image (the one that fits the shadowed leaders photo) in the Shenmue 3 artbook from Pix n Love.
 
They did not. The only image of her released exclusively through Muecas is my avatar, a cell phone icon.
 
Lately, I've started wondering if Niao Sun might have just become an amalgamation of the other unannounced leaders rolled into one character. Niao Sunā€™s original character description from the 90s reads:

"Wearing a voluptuous red dress, her manner seduces and distracts. Her fearsome eyes pierce everything and are constantly on the hunt for their next prey. She takes pleasure in cruelty and eliminates people like bugs".​

However, in Shenmue 3ā€™s character descriptions, her profile has been altered:

"One of the leaders of the shadowy Chi You Men criminal organization. Belying her captivating beauty, she is an expert martial arts practitioner. However, her greatest talent is said to lie in the area of plotting and strategy, and she makes use of her cunning wits to play dirty tricks. 'Niao Sun' is merely her nickname inside the organization, a reference to one of the Four Heavenly Beasts - the Vermilion Bird. However, regarding such details as her real name, background, and why she joined the Chi You Men, nothing at all is known".​

Niao Sun is now defined not by her sexiness but by being a master strategist. We see this in Shenmue 3 when she outwits Ryo and Shenhua to obtain the Phoenix Mirror and poses as an ally before trying to assassinate Lan Di to secure total control of the Chi You Men. From interviews with Suzuki-san in the early days of Shenmue 3ā€™s development, we know that strategy and manipulation had been qualities previously reserved for one of the other yet unannounced leaders who was going to appear in Shenmue 3 as one of the four big bosses.

ā€œYS: There will be many new characters. There are the four main bosses. There will be Lan Di from the previous games, and two more fighters. One of those is an extremely beautiful and sexy, but cruel woman. I briefly introduced her image in Shenmue II, but in Shenmue III she will have a proper and extensive role. The last one, on the other hand, is strategist using more cunning than head-on fighting.ā€ (Source: https://www.dualshockers.com/shenmu...tech-romance-ps4-pc-frame-rate-and-much-more/)​

Yet, here is Niao Sun now exhibiting these same traits which should be exclusive to the other unannounced leader.

We know that Suzuki-san spent some time around 2015 figuring out the Chi You Men leader arrangement for Shenmue 3 so he could feature ā€œfour big bossesā€ (see the below images which were drawn-up in 2015).

shen.pngmue.png

This is what I think must have happened: much like Baisha, I wonder if during this same time Suzuki-san found the other leaders (who he hadnā€™t revisited since penning his VFRPG scripts in the 90s) to be a bit underwhelming or uninteresting for whatever reason, hence they did not appear in the finished product. Given that they were not considered important or intriguing enough to be revealed alongside Niao Sun as far back as promotion for the first two Shenmue games, them being underwhelming would honestly not surprise me if it turns out to be true.

Shenmue 3 is written in such a way to suggest these other Chi You Men leaders are non-existent to the organisation which is weird considering we infiltrate their stronghold which would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce everyone as a set-up for Shenmue 4. For example, it is a bit telling that at Niaowu Castle, Niao Sun says ā€œThe Chi You Men belong to me now!ā€ when she thinks sheā€™s finally killed Lan Di ā€“ not really something a mere subservient member of a four-person group who all answer to a bigger overlord would say unless thereā€™s now, in fact, no-one else around to challenge her.

So, rather than make Niao Sun just a walking pair of evil boobs based on her 90s profile, Suzuki-san did the same thing he has been doing when repurposing elements from his 11 chapter concept: he took bits and pieces which would have been reserved for the other villains he drafted in the 90s for VFRPG and gave them to Niao Sun to make her that more interesting. Now, Niao Sun is not only evil, and sexy, but also a master strategist who uses strategy and illusion to get what she wants. If this theory of mine is true, Suzuki-san just made her even more interesting by giving her more characterisation which would have otherwise been reserved to split between the two other unannounced leaders.

Honestly, I could be completely wrong about all of this, and the other leaders are probably still planned to be revealed at the Emperorā€™s Cliff Temple in Shenmue 4. I just find it weird that one big focus for Shenmue 3 dating back to 2015 was a big fight with all four bosses that would comprise the Chi You Men. Suddenly, this idea gets quietly scrapped alongside Baisha, and then when Niao Sun is finally unveiled, she's exhibiting some traits which would have been personified by a different leader.

If the Four Leaders being cut is true, I can see how this reduced villain composition might inevitably anger people considering that this is a fandom that triggered itself enough over the EGS fiasco to lovingly send death threats to a 60-year old developer who was only trying to make a fucking computer game. But I donā€™t know man, if my suspicions are correct and the other leaders were felt to be rather uninteresting Iā€™d rather have two villains who are a bit more multi-faceted than cramming in four bosses with Post-It notes stuck on their foreheads saying ā€œStrategy bossā€, ā€œSexy bossā€, ā€œFighter bossā€ etc who you have to defeat at their own respective dungeon in order to advance Legend of Zelda style. Its always been my feeling that Lan Di and Niao Sun would have been the more interesting members anyway, given how they both represent a Dragon and a Phoenix in their organisation which reiterates the same symbolism we keep seeing everywhere in this series of these two opposing mythical creatures.
 
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Lately, I've started wondering if Niao Sun might have just become an amalgamation of the other unannounced leaders rolled into one character. Niao Sunā€™s original character description from the 90s reads:

"Wearing a voluptuous red dress, her manner seduces and distracts. Her fearsome eyes pierce everything and are constantly on the hunt for their next prey. She takes pleasure in cruelty and eliminates people like bugs".​

However, in Shenmue 3ā€™s character descriptions, her profile has been altered:

"One of the leaders of the shadowy Chi You Men criminal organization. Belying her captivating beauty, she is an expert martial arts practitioner. However, her greatest talent is said to lie in the area of plotting and strategy, and she makes use of her cunning wits to play dirty tricks. 'Niao Sun' is merely her nickname inside the organization, a reference to one of the Four Heavenly Beasts - the Vermilion Bird. However, regarding such details as her real name, background, and why she joined the Chi You Men, nothing at all is known".​

Niao Sun is now defined not by her sexiness but by being a master strategist. We see this in Shenmue 3 when she outwits Ryo and Shenhua to obtain the Phoenix Mirror and poses as an ally before trying to assassinate Lan Di to secure total control of the Chi You Men. From interviews with Suzuki-san in the early days of Shenmue 3ā€™s development, we know that strategy and manipulation had been qualities previously reserved for one of the other yet unannounced leaders who was going to appear in Shenmue 3 as one of the four big bosses.

ā€œYS: There will be many new characters. There are the four main bosses. There will be Lan Di from the previous games, and two more fighters. One of those is an extremely beautiful and sexy, but cruel woman. I briefly introduced her image in Shenmue II, but in Shenmue III she will have a proper and extensive role. The last one, on the other hand, is strategist using more cunning than head-on fighting.ā€ (Source: https://www.dualshockers.com/shenmu...tech-romance-ps4-pc-frame-rate-and-much-more/)​

Yet, here is Niao Sun now exhibiting these same traits which should be exclusive to the other unannounced leader.

We know that Suzuki-san spent some time around 2015 figuring out the Chi You Men leader arrangement for Shenmue 3 so he could feature ā€œfour big bossesā€ (see the below images which were drawn-up in 2015).

View attachment 8630View attachment 8631

This is what I think must have happened: much like Baisha, I wonder if during this same time Suzuki-san found the other leaders (who he hadnā€™t revisited since penning his VFRPG scripts in the 90s) to be a bit underwhelming or uninteresting for whatever reason, hence they did not appear in the finished product. Given that they were not considered important or intriguing enough to be revealed alongside Niao Sun as far back as promotion for the first two Shenmue games, them being underwhelming would honestly not surprise me if it turns out to be true.

Shenmue 3 is written in such a way to suggest these other Chi You Men leaders are non-existent to the organisation which is weird considering we infiltrate their stronghold which would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce everyone as a set-up for Shenmue 4. For example, it is a bit telling that at Niaowu Castle, Niao Sun says ā€œThe Chi You Men belong to me now!ā€ when she thinks sheā€™s finally killed Lan Di ā€“ not really something a mere subservient member of a four-person group who all answer to a bigger overlord would say unless thereā€™s now, in fact, no-one else around to challenge her.

So, rather than make Niao Sun just a walking pair of evil boobs based on her 90s profile, Suzuki-san did the same thing he has been doing when repurposing elements from his 11 chapter concept: he took bits and pieces which would have been reserved for the other villains he drafted in the 90s for VFRPG and gave them to Niao Sun to make her that more interesting. Now, Niao Sun is not only evil, and sexy, but also a master strategist who uses strategy and illusion to get what she wants. If this theory of mine is true, Suzuki-san just made her even more interesting by giving her more characterisation which would have otherwise been reserved to split between the two other unannounced leaders.

Honestly, I could be completely wrong about all of this, and the other leaders are probably still planned to be revealed at the Emperorā€™s Cliff Temple in Shenmue 4. I just find it weird that one big focus for Shenmue 3 dating back to 2015 was a big fight with all four bosses that would comprise the Chi You Men. Suddenly, this idea gets quietly scrapped alongside Baisha, and then when Niao Sun is finally unveiled, she's exhibiting some traits which would have been personified by a different leader.

If the Four Leaders being cut is true, I can see how this reduced villain composition might inevitably anger people considering that this is a fandom that triggered itself enough over the EGS fiasco to lovingly send death threats to a 60-year old developer who was only trying to make a fucking computer game. But I donā€™t know man, if my suspicions are correct and the other leaders were felt to be rather uninteresting Iā€™d rather have two villains who are a bit more multi-faceted than cramming in four bosses with Post-It notes stuck on their foreheads saying ā€œStrategy bossā€, ā€œSexy bossā€, ā€œFighter bossā€ etc who you have to defeat at their own respective dungeon in order to advance Legend of Zelda style. Its always been my feeling that Lan Di and Niao Sun would have been the more interesting members anyway, given how they both represent a Dragon and a Phoenix in their organisation which reiterates the same symbolism we keep seeing everywhere in this series of these two opposing mythical creatures.

Great and detailed post, itā€™s definitely something interesting to consider. Itā€™s clear Suzuki has amalgamated and incorporated many elements from the chapter title cards over the years. Given the fact at least one other member of Chiyoumen (if I have identified them correctly based on high resolution scans we saw on rough cut of Shenmue documentary) I wonder what the story implications are.
 
Lately, I've started wondering if Niao Sun might have just become an amalgamation of the other unannounced leaders rolled into one character. Niao Sunā€™s original character description from the 90s reads:

"Wearing a voluptuous red dress, her manner seduces and distracts. Her fearsome eyes pierce everything and are constantly on the hunt for their next prey. She takes pleasure in cruelty and eliminates people like bugs".​

However, in Shenmue 3ā€™s character descriptions, her profile has been altered:

"One of the leaders of the shadowy Chi You Men criminal organization. Belying her captivating beauty, she is an expert martial arts practitioner. However, her greatest talent is said to lie in the area of plotting and strategy, and she makes use of her cunning wits to play dirty tricks. 'Niao Sun' is merely her nickname inside the organization, a reference to one of the Four Heavenly Beasts - the Vermilion Bird. However, regarding such details as her real name, background, and why she joined the Chi You Men, nothing at all is known".​

Niao Sun is now defined not by her sexiness but by being a master strategist. We see this in Shenmue 3 when she outwits Ryo and Shenhua to obtain the Phoenix Mirror and poses as an ally before trying to assassinate Lan Di to secure total control of the Chi You Men. From interviews with Suzuki-san in the early days of Shenmue 3ā€™s development, we know that strategy and manipulation had been qualities previously reserved for one of the other yet unannounced leaders who was going to appear in Shenmue 3 as one of the four big bosses.

ā€œYS: There will be many new characters. There are the four main bosses. There will be Lan Di from the previous games, and two more fighters. One of those is an extremely beautiful and sexy, but cruel woman. I briefly introduced her image in Shenmue II, but in Shenmue III she will have a proper and extensive role. The last one, on the other hand, is strategist using more cunning than head-on fighting.ā€ (Source: https://www.dualshockers.com/shenmu...tech-romance-ps4-pc-frame-rate-and-much-more/)​

Yet, here is Niao Sun now exhibiting these same traits which should be exclusive to the other unannounced leader.

We know that Suzuki-san spent some time around 2015 figuring out the Chi You Men leader arrangement for Shenmue 3 so he could feature ā€œfour big bossesā€ (see the below images which were drawn-up in 2015).

View attachment 8630View attachment 8631

This is what I think must have happened: much like Baisha, I wonder if during this same time Suzuki-san found the other leaders (who he hadnā€™t revisited since penning his VFRPG scripts in the 90s) to be a bit underwhelming or uninteresting for whatever reason, hence they did not appear in the finished product. Given that they were not considered important or intriguing enough to be revealed alongside Niao Sun as far back as promotion for the first two Shenmue games, them being underwhelming would honestly not surprise me if it turns out to be true.

Shenmue 3 is written in such a way to suggest these other Chi You Men leaders are non-existent to the organisation which is weird considering we infiltrate their stronghold which would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce everyone as a set-up for Shenmue 4. For example, it is a bit telling that at Niaowu Castle, Niao Sun says ā€œThe Chi You Men belong to me now!ā€ when she thinks sheā€™s finally killed Lan Di ā€“ not really something a mere subservient member of a four-person group who all answer to a bigger overlord would say unless thereā€™s now, in fact, no-one else around to challenge her.

So, rather than make Niao Sun just a walking pair of evil boobs based on her 90s profile, Suzuki-san did the same thing he has been doing when repurposing elements from his 11 chapter concept: he took bits and pieces which would have been reserved for the other villains he drafted in the 90s for VFRPG and gave them to Niao Sun to make her that more interesting. Now, Niao Sun is not only evil, and sexy, but also a master strategist who uses strategy and illusion to get what she wants. If this theory of mine is true, Suzuki-san just made her even more interesting by giving her more characterisation which would have otherwise been reserved to split between the two other unannounced leaders.

Honestly, I could be completely wrong about all of this, and the other leaders are probably still planned to be revealed at the Emperorā€™s Cliff Temple in Shenmue 4. I just find it weird that one big focus for Shenmue 3 dating back to 2015 was a big fight with all four bosses that would comprise the Chi You Men. Suddenly, this idea gets quietly scrapped alongside Baisha, and then when Niao Sun is finally unveiled, she's exhibiting some traits which would have been personified by a different leader.

If the Four Leaders being cut is true, I can see how this reduced villain composition might inevitably anger people considering that this is a fandom that triggered itself enough over the EGS fiasco to lovingly send death threats to a 60-year old developer who was only trying to make a fucking computer game. But I donā€™t know man, if my suspicions are correct and the other leaders were felt to be rather uninteresting Iā€™d rather have two villains who are a bit more multi-faceted than cramming in four bosses with Post-It notes stuck on their foreheads saying ā€œStrategy bossā€, ā€œSexy bossā€, ā€œFighter bossā€ etc who you have to defeat at their own respective dungeon in order to advance Legend of Zelda style. Its always been my feeling that Lan Di and Niao Sun would have been the more interesting members anyway, given how they both represent a Dragon and a Phoenix in their organisation which reiterates the same symbolism we keep seeing everywhere in this series of these two opposing mythical creatures.

good post!
 
Lately, I've started wondering if Niao Sun might have just become an amalgamation of the other unannounced leaders rolled into one character. Niao Sunā€™s original character description from the 90s reads:

"Wearing a voluptuous red dress, her manner seduces and distracts. Her fearsome eyes pierce everything and are constantly on the hunt for their next prey. She takes pleasure in cruelty and eliminates people like bugs".​

However, in Shenmue 3ā€™s character descriptions, her profile has been altered:

"One of the leaders of the shadowy Chi You Men criminal organization. Belying her captivating beauty, she is an expert martial arts practitioner. However, her greatest talent is said to lie in the area of plotting and strategy, and she makes use of her cunning wits to play dirty tricks. 'Niao Sun' is merely her nickname inside the organization, a reference to one of the Four Heavenly Beasts - the Vermilion Bird. However, regarding such details as her real name, background, and why she joined the Chi You Men, nothing at all is known".​

Niao Sun is now defined not by her sexiness but by being a master strategist. We see this in Shenmue 3 when she outwits Ryo and Shenhua to obtain the Phoenix Mirror and poses as an ally before trying to assassinate Lan Di to secure total control of the Chi You Men. From interviews with Suzuki-san in the early days of Shenmue 3ā€™s development, we know that strategy and manipulation had been qualities previously reserved for one of the other yet unannounced leaders who was going to appear in Shenmue 3 as one of the four big bosses.

ā€œYS: There will be many new characters. There are the four main bosses. There will be Lan Di from the previous games, and two more fighters. One of those is an extremely beautiful and sexy, but cruel woman. I briefly introduced her image in Shenmue II, but in Shenmue III she will have a proper and extensive role. The last one, on the other hand, is strategist using more cunning than head-on fighting.ā€ (Source: https://www.dualshockers.com/shenmu...tech-romance-ps4-pc-frame-rate-and-much-more/)​

Yet, here is Niao Sun now exhibiting these same traits which should be exclusive to the other unannounced leader.

We know that Suzuki-san spent some time around 2015 figuring out the Chi You Men leader arrangement for Shenmue 3 so he could feature ā€œfour big bossesā€ (see the below images which were drawn-up in 2015).

View attachment 8630View attachment 8631

This is what I think must have happened: much like Baisha, I wonder if during this same time Suzuki-san found the other leaders (who he hadnā€™t revisited since penning his VFRPG scripts in the 90s) to be a bit underwhelming or uninteresting for whatever reason, hence they did not appear in the finished product. Given that they were not considered important or intriguing enough to be revealed alongside Niao Sun as far back as promotion for the first two Shenmue games, them being underwhelming would honestly not surprise me if it turns out to be true.

Shenmue 3 is written in such a way to suggest these other Chi You Men leaders are non-existent to the organisation which is weird considering we infiltrate their stronghold which would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce everyone as a set-up for Shenmue 4. For example, it is a bit telling that at Niaowu Castle, Niao Sun says ā€œThe Chi You Men belong to me now!ā€ when she thinks sheā€™s finally killed Lan Di ā€“ not really something a mere subservient member of a four-person group who all answer to a bigger overlord would say unless thereā€™s now, in fact, no-one else around to challenge her.

So, rather than make Niao Sun just a walking pair of evil boobs based on her 90s profile, Suzuki-san did the same thing he has been doing when repurposing elements from his 11 chapter concept: he took bits and pieces which would have been reserved for the other villains he drafted in the 90s for VFRPG and gave them to Niao Sun to make her that more interesting. Now, Niao Sun is not only evil, and sexy, but also a master strategist who uses strategy and illusion to get what she wants. If this theory of mine is true, Suzuki-san just made her even more interesting by giving her more characterisation which would have otherwise been reserved to split between the two other unannounced leaders.

Honestly, I could be completely wrong about all of this, and the other leaders are probably still planned to be revealed at the Emperorā€™s Cliff Temple in Shenmue 4. I just find it weird that one big focus for Shenmue 3 dating back to 2015 was a big fight with all four bosses that would comprise the Chi You Men. Suddenly, this idea gets quietly scrapped alongside Baisha, and then when Niao Sun is finally unveiled, she's exhibiting some traits which would have been personified by a different leader.

If the Four Leaders being cut is true, I can see how this reduced villain composition might inevitably anger people considering that this is a fandom that triggered itself enough over the EGS fiasco to lovingly send death threats to a 60-year old developer who was only trying to make a fucking computer game. But I donā€™t know man, if my suspicions are correct and the other leaders were felt to be rather uninteresting Iā€™d rather have two villains who are a bit more multi-faceted than cramming in four bosses with Post-It notes stuck on their foreheads saying ā€œStrategy bossā€, ā€œSexy bossā€, ā€œFighter bossā€ etc who you have to defeat at their own respective dungeon in order to advance Legend of Zelda style. Its always been my feeling that Lan Di and Niao Sun would have been the more interesting members anyway, given how they both represent a Dragon and a Phoenix in their organisation which reiterates the same symbolism we keep seeing everywhere in this series of these two opposing mythical creatures.
Very insightful post. Maybe Niao Sun has inherited some traits of other Shitennou at this point. I sort of took her talking about gaining control of the CYM as more of a representation of her revealing her gambit, though. I get the sense that Lan DI didn't have the dragon mirror on him, but that NIao Sun knows where he's keeping it, and believes it's as good as hers now. I was really interested in how this might cause the Shitennou to factionalize, so I hope the other two weren't dropped. I would be kind of surprised it they were, only because of how prevalent the four gate guardians have been in the series. Can't rule it out, though.

I do think there's an assumption being made that, "Four big bosses," is indicating that all four of the Shitennou were going to be part of this game as bosses. If I were trying to work backwards, and given the shorthand, I would probably assume that in Japanese it was just. "Shitennou," which might be translated to "Four big bosses" out of convenience. However, Lan Di and Niao Sun are Shitennou, and the word doesn't necessarily preclude that all four would be represented. Although, that also wouldn't mean that it wasn't intended for three of them to show up.
 
Lately, I've started wondering if Niao Sun might have just become an amalgamation of the other unannounced leaders rolled into one character. Niao Sunā€™s original character description from the 90s reads:

"Wearing a voluptuous red dress, her manner seduces and distracts. Her fearsome eyes pierce everything and are constantly on the hunt for their next prey. She takes pleasure in cruelty and eliminates people like bugs".​

However, in Shenmue 3ā€™s character descriptions, her profile has been altered:

"One of the leaders of the shadowy Chi You Men criminal organization. Belying her captivating beauty, she is an expert martial arts practitioner. However, her greatest talent is said to lie in the area of plotting and strategy, and she makes use of her cunning wits to play dirty tricks. 'Niao Sun' is merely her nickname inside the organization, a reference to one of the Four Heavenly Beasts - the Vermilion Bird. However, regarding such details as her real name, background, and why she joined the Chi You Men, nothing at all is known".​

Niao Sun is now defined not by her sexiness but by being a master strategist. We see this in Shenmue 3 when she outwits Ryo and Shenhua to obtain the Phoenix Mirror and poses as an ally before trying to assassinate Lan Di to secure total control of the Chi You Men. From interviews with Suzuki-san in the early days of Shenmue 3ā€™s development, we know that strategy and manipulation had been qualities previously reserved for one of the other yet unannounced leaders who was going to appear in Shenmue 3 as one of the four big bosses.

ā€œYS: There will be many new characters. There are the four main bosses. There will be Lan Di from the previous games, and two more fighters. One of those is an extremely beautiful and sexy, but cruel woman. I briefly introduced her image in Shenmue II, but in Shenmue III she will have a proper and extensive role. The last one, on the other hand, is strategist using more cunning than head-on fighting.ā€ (Source: https://www.dualshockers.com/shenmu...tech-romance-ps4-pc-frame-rate-and-much-more/)​

Yet, here is Niao Sun now exhibiting these same traits which should be exclusive to the other unannounced leader.

We know that Suzuki-san spent some time around 2015 figuring out the Chi You Men leader arrangement for Shenmue 3 so he could feature ā€œfour big bossesā€ (see the below images which were drawn-up in 2015).

View attachment 8630View attachment 8631

This is what I think must have happened: much like Baisha, I wonder if during this same time Suzuki-san found the other leaders (who he hadnā€™t revisited since penning his VFRPG scripts in the 90s) to be a bit underwhelming or uninteresting for whatever reason, hence they did not appear in the finished product. Given that they were not considered important or intriguing enough to be revealed alongside Niao Sun as far back as promotion for the first two Shenmue games, them being underwhelming would honestly not surprise me if it turns out to be true.

Shenmue 3 is written in such a way to suggest these other Chi You Men leaders are non-existent to the organisation which is weird considering we infiltrate their stronghold which would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce everyone as a set-up for Shenmue 4. For example, it is a bit telling that at Niaowu Castle, Niao Sun says ā€œThe Chi You Men belong to me now!ā€ when she thinks sheā€™s finally killed Lan Di ā€“ not really something a mere subservient member of a four-person group who all answer to a bigger overlord would say unless thereā€™s now, in fact, no-one else around to challenge her.

So, rather than make Niao Sun just a walking pair of evil boobs based on her 90s profile, Suzuki-san did the same thing he has been doing when repurposing elements from his 11 chapter concept: he took bits and pieces which would have been reserved for the other villains he drafted in the 90s for VFRPG and gave them to Niao Sun to make her that more interesting. Now, Niao Sun is not only evil, and sexy, but also a master strategist who uses strategy and illusion to get what she wants. If this theory of mine is true, Suzuki-san just made her even more interesting by giving her more characterisation which would have otherwise been reserved to split between the two other unannounced leaders.

Honestly, I could be completely wrong about all of this, and the other leaders are probably still planned to be revealed at the Emperorā€™s Cliff Temple in Shenmue 4. I just find it weird that one big focus for Shenmue 3 dating back to 2015 was a big fight with all four bosses that would comprise the Chi You Men. Suddenly, this idea gets quietly scrapped alongside Baisha, and then when Niao Sun is finally unveiled, she's exhibiting some traits which would have been personified by a different leader.

If the Four Leaders being cut is true, I can see how this reduced villain composition might inevitably anger people considering that this is a fandom that triggered itself enough over the EGS fiasco to lovingly send death threats to a 60-year old developer who was only trying to make a fucking computer game. But I donā€™t know man, if my suspicions are correct and the other leaders were felt to be rather uninteresting Iā€™d rather have two villains who are a bit more multi-faceted than cramming in four bosses with Post-It notes stuck on their foreheads saying ā€œStrategy bossā€, ā€œSexy bossā€, ā€œFighter bossā€ etc who you have to defeat at their own respective dungeon in order to advance Legend of Zelda style. Its always been my feeling that Lan Di and Niao Sun would have been the more interesting members anyway, given how they both represent a Dragon and a Phoenix in their organisation which reiterates the same symbolism we keep seeing everywhere in this series of these two opposing mythical creatures.
Absolutely amazing post! You bring up some very valid points here. I hope the other leaders are not cut. Would break my heart to see major story elements gone with history.
 
Based on what backers of the Shenmue Documentary are now saying about some high resolution Chapter 7 (Shenmue 4) concept art shown in the rough cut, my theory might have already been shot down and the other two leaders are indeed right around the corner. Perhaps Yu initially thought in featuring all the leaders in Shenmue 3, but then when his budget increased massively, he chose to instead take his time with the story and keep to his original vision of introducing them all a bit later on.

If true, that's also excellent news as we're getting more of the original VFRPG concept. And I like that he's not only creating these leaders as originally planned, but he's also making each individual leader more multifaceted as we saw with Niao Sun.
 
IMO I think the others 2 leaders should be cut, because it's so close to the treasure. If they were in it, they would probably be underwhelming. I think Tentei should still be in it, as like a screwed up adoptive father to Lan Di, and because he could the final obstacle Sun needs to take over the organization completely. Tentei could give Sun some character development, let's say if she was jealous of him and Lan Di's relationship. He could also be a way to explain the lore, and a connection to Shenha's history. If Sun gets the treasure it all goes wrong, a trap or curse whatever, and she's destroyed by her own obsession, like Ryo and Lan Di might be.

Ziming I think still needs to be in it, possibly as a wannabee leader, that really hammers home that the Chi You Men will destroy themselves, even with Sun gone. Lan Di needs to exile himself, after all the futility that Chi You stands for... and I assume Ryo lets him go. So in a way, you still kind of have 4 leaders.
 
IMO I think the others 2 leaders should be cut, because it's so close to the treasure. If they were in it, they would probably be underwhelming. I think Tentei should still be in it, as like a screwed up adoptive father to Lan Di, and because he could the final obstacle Sun needs to take over the organization completely. Tentei could give Sun some character development, let's say if she was jealous of him and Lan Di's relationship. He could also be a way to explain the lore, and a connection to Shenha's history. If Sun gets the treasure it all goes wrong, a trap or curse whatever, and she's destroyed by her own obsession, like Ryo and Lan Di might be.

Ziming I think still needs to be in it, possibly as a wannabee leader, that really hammers home that the Chi You Men will destroy themselves, even with Sun gone. Lan Di needs to exile himself, after all the futility that Chi You stands for... and I assume Ryo lets him go. So in a way, you still kind of have 4 leaders.
What makes you think weā€™re at all close to the treasure?

If the treasure really is at the cliff temple (which Iā€™m assuming is your assumption), I donā€™t see how they can possibly stretch that out over two more games (Ryo and gang are already en route).

This would also mean scrapping the Meng Cun area which seems to be integral to the story in many ways.
 
What makes you think weā€™re at all close to the treasure?

If the treasure really is at the cliff temple (which Iā€™m assuming is your assumption), I donā€™t see how they can possibly stretch that out over two more games (Ryo and gang are already en route).

This would also mean scrapping the Meng Cun area which seems to be integral to the story in many ways.
'I believe the treasure at the heart of the calamity, is hidden within those mountains', 'My dear, I believe you hold the treasure map' Yeh

I think either the treasure is there, or it not there, but it shows where all of it is across China, so it's the key point of the treasure.

I think the next 2 chapters, whether it could be 1 or 2 games could first focus on the treasure 'turning against' Sun and Tentei, then the next chapter how this affects Lan Di and Ryo, and their final encounter.
 
'I believe the treasure at the heart of the calamity, is hidden within those mountains', 'My dear, I believe you hold the treasure map' Yeh

I think either the treasure is there, or it not there, but it shows where all of it is across China, so it's the key point of the treasure.

I think the next 2 chapters, whether it could be 1 or 2 games could first focus on the treasure 'turning against' Sun and Tentei, then the next chapter how this affects Lan Di and Ryo, and their final encounter.
Iā€™m leaning very much towards this being the case. We know that the mirrors themselves form a map and it would make no sense at all for the map contained within the mirrors to lead to the location that they were originally hidden (if youā€™ve found the mirrors then you wouldnā€™t need the map).

I envisage some sort of device that will point to a new location when combined with the mirrors with each location leading to the next until they eventually point to the treasureā€™s final location.

Assuming this ends up being the case and the player is taken across China; I donā€™t see why we couldnā€™t still meet the other leaders.
 
IMO I think the others 2 leaders should be cut, because it's so close to the treasure. If they were in it, they would probably be underwhelming. I think Tentei should still be in it, as like a screwed up adoptive father to Lan Di, and because he could the final obstacle Sun needs to take over the organization completely. Tentei could give Sun some character development, let's say if she was jealous of him and Lan Di's relationship. He could also be a way to explain the lore, and a connection to Shenha's history. If Sun gets the treasure it all goes wrong, a trap or curse whatever, and she's destroyed by her own obsession, like Ryo and Lan Di might be.

Ziming I think still needs to be in it, possibly as a wannabee leader, that really hammers home that the Chi You Men will destroy themselves, even with Sun gone. Lan Di needs to exile himself, after all the futility that Chi You stands for... and I assume Ryo lets him go. So in a way, you still kind of have 4 leaders.

You leave those two leaders right where they are or I'll send Tentei after you
 
Iā€™m leaning very much towards this being the case. We know that the mirrors themselves form a map and it would make no sense at all for the map contained within the mirrors to lead to the location that they were originally hidden (if youā€™ve found the mirrors then you wouldnā€™t need the map).

I envisage some sort of device that will point to a new location when combined with the mirrors with each location leading to the next until they eventually point to the treasureā€™s final location.

Assuming this ends up being the case and the player is taken across China; I donā€™t see why we couldnā€™t still meet the other leaders.
I think it could be too much like Zelda, going to each region for 7 treasures or whatever, too much of a fetch quest. If Shenhua is related to an emperor, I don't think she will want it, destroying the map and if it's cursed by Chi You, letting the empire be lost. I think that sounds more appropriate.

Ryo letting go of his vengeance, letting go of the hope to resurrecting the dynasty, letting go off the past. That's why I don't think the treasure hunt has to be dragged out.
 
IMO I think the others 2 leaders should be cut, because it's so close to the treasure. If they were in it, they would probably be underwhelming.
If we're worried about new characters being introduced too late into the story, I wonder if reintroducing Master Baihu from Shenmue 2 as one of the Four, specifically the White Tiger boss, might be a good idea (unless that's the actual plan here). There is already some history there between him and Ryo given their encounter in Shenmue 2. The story also foreshadows that we may meet him again at a later point ("Hazuki...I shall remember that name). Its also a bit coincidental that he just so happened to practice the same Tiger Swallow Style that Lan Di uses, resembles a tiger in his visual design what with his orange-white colour scheme, and that his name means "White Tiger" in Chinese.

The only thing that might throw this theory into question is that we beat one of the Four Big Bosses as early as Shenmue 2 when Ryo has barely begun his martial arts journey and is still grappling with petty thugs. But, perhaps Baihu is almost the Kylo Ren of the Chi You Men: a proud young man who thinks he's all-powerful but who also struggles at letting his pride cloud his judgement which results in him getting beaten by a teenager with limited Kung Fu. After Shenmue 2, Bailu likely went away to complete his training, furious that he was beaten by a mere teenager. He likely was scolded by Tentei/Niao Sun/Lan Di for being a complete joke, and he perhaps struggles at being the competent fighter he is expected to be as one of the Four. He'll train harder to not let Ryo humiliate him again, but his quest will ultimately be that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology: a character who rolls a boulder up a hill only for it to roll back down for eternity. He'll attack Ryo in Shenmue 4, perceiving himself to finally be a more powerful rival, and Ryo will swiftly humiliate him once again. Maybe this could even progress into a redemptive arc where Baihu considers that maybe he is just not cut out for being one of the Chi You Men and Ryo assists with his redemption. Just a thought.
 
I think it could be too much like Zelda, going to each region for 7 treasures or whatever, too much of a fetch quest. If Shenhua is related to an emperor, I don't think she will want it, destroying the map and if it's cursed by Chi You, letting the empire be lost. I think that sounds more appropriate.
They could still cut regions without cutting the leaders. Iirc, thereā€™s a leader for North, South, West and East. Weā€™ve met two of them, so 2 more regions of China and then the final location of the treasure doesnā€™t seem like too much of a stretch.

I know Zimming isnā€™t intended to be one of the leaders, but this isnā€™t canon as of the moment so he could easily become one for the sake of speeding things up a little (we kind of need to meet him anyway).
 
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