Were you happier with no Shenmue III? Or do you prefer living in a post-Shenmue III world?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

We may be talking at each other here based on our definition of grinding. If you are talking about for example, slow repetitive turn based combat in an RPG then I would I agree. But if you get to a point in a game where you need to halt progress and spend a significant amount of time (i.e hours) leveling up, it breaks the flow of the game and is widely seen as a bad thing. Worse still if the game makes you do that frequently making grinding a core part of the gameplay loop.


Is 75% your threshold? It's hard to quantify but Shenmue 3 is like 30%-50% grinding. I would say that's a lot by any games standard.

I would certainly want Shenmue 4 to lean away from that as I would think most people would.

'mue III is maybe, MAYBE, 25% of the game grinding and that's just being generous.

Be realistic.

We must have different definitions of grinding because to me that implies doing the same thing over and over and over. You can earn money fighting, betting, chopping, fishing, herb picking, forklifting, winning arcade games and pawning. If you can't do some tasks from that list to earn money and advance the plot and consider that a grind then that's a shame. And besides if you've done some of the above already through natural game play it's as easy as going to a vendor and cashing in.

I don't see why Shenmue 2 gets a free pass because you can save scum it. The games trying to teach you that money is a precious commodity and you should be wise and not waste it and that earning money is tough. Yes you can win big by gambling but just as easy lose it all... Or you can do some solid labour for guaranteed returns...just like real life. Isn't that what Shenmue is all about?

And bingo.

Grinding is, indeed, doing the dame thing over and over and over and over again.

And you perfectly put into words, why 'mue III is NOT a grindy game.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

In terms of grinding, on their original play-through did anyone else just wood chop their way to 2000 even if it took longer cause fishing and gambling are not that fun

I found Fishing was a ton of fun.

EDIT* You see how everyone is mashing their opinion in this discussion and trying to make it objective?

Grinding, like anything in life, is a fantastic if done in moderation.

 

[Nigel]

That's the definition of grinding, spending 2 entire in-game days doing nothing but repetitive chores to meet a required sum.
It's not fun and it's not worth defending.

Not to be a third voice here (I try to keep a moderate position on these topics), but I'd also suggest that that's a bombastic claim. That said, while I do agree that the financing in S3 is less accessible than that of S2, I never found it unenjoyable. As someone who's been more critical of the game than many around here, I'll still try to find a middle ground.

S2's financing is simpler and easier to bypass: gamble, and gamble directly for cash. I'd be lying if I suggested I prefer the "economy" of trading in S3 (I can recognize why it was implemented for international publication concerns), but I still enjoyed it. 2 wins on accessibility, but it's not as if it bypasses 3's structure. People keep mentioning the $500 for Ren, but let's not forget the initial Kowloon entrance fee for fights. This is also a repeat, and at higher stakes.

In particular, I'd distinguish pure grinding and an effort to engage you in the game. I explored Bailu more due to the demand of that need for money: I finally took up fishing, and herb collecting became a more addictive aspect. It made me appreciate what was supposed to be going on in a rural town. They can't pay much there, and it's supposed to be humbling to make scratch through menial tasks.

That said, more to your point, it felt a little less "organic" in the Niaowu setting, closer to the negative sense of grind. I can see how the idea was that you'd probably have a decent amount of money by that time, but it nonetheless may feel like unvaried design. There, it admittedly does smack more of grinding. So too, it doesn't help that every means in Bailu is repeated in Niaowu without new options.

 

[spud1897]

Guys, @Thomasina has a point.

Grinding in games is never good, whether it be for money, exp, resources, or whatever else.

While some of you may not have minded it much we should be sending the message as fans to YSNet that we don't want Shenmue to continue down this path going forward. Do we really want S4 to have more grinding for money?

I mean I don't personally feel that is a cornerstone of this series. Especially if Shenmue is to gain more mainstream appeal which it requires if you want it to continue.

While I understand your sentiment I'd say there is a contributing factor here, which is rightly raised above. The pay-off.

Shenmue III is much lighter in that regard and thus highlights the grind more because of the lack of pay-off. Had the story elements been stronger I suspect people wouldn't be so upset about it. It's definitely not a cornerstone of the series as a whole.

As I said I spend 2 in game days doing it so that's doing herbs and chopping only. So what about an hour and a bit realtime. Not that long and if you establish a routine on top of that you have more than enough very soon into the game.

That said it's not everyone's cup of tea and that's fair.

 

[hmjohnny]

'mue III is maybe, MAYBE, 25% of the game grinding and that's just being generous.
Be realistic

As I said hard to quantify. Depends on how you look at it. The core gameplay loop in S3 requires you to level up Kung Fu which requires you to train moves over and over again which requires you to buy expensive move scrolls which requires you to earn money, albeit in a variety of ways (which I appreciate!). A good chunk of the game is doing this, and tbh it felt punishing to play at times especially when you add the stamina system requiring you to constantly eat. this means a huge chunk of the game is about earning money and the game is designed to minimize the gambling exploits from S2 making it take way longer. This feels like padding to me and if you prefer that term to grinding then so be it I don't want to mince words here if you feel grinding must purely be repetitive.

What makes matters worse is there 2 times in the game where you have to basically scrum for money to get behind a paywall for the game to continue. I would see this as bad in any game.

don't see why Shenmue 2 gets a free pass because you can save scum it. The games trying to teach you that money is a precious commodity and you should be wise and not waste it and that earning money is tough. Yes you can win big by gambling but just as easy lose it all... Or you can do some solid labour for guaranteed returns...just like real life. Isn't that what Shenmue is all about?

FWIW I personally don't give S2 a pass for it. It was one of the (few) things I didn't like about the game since the first time I played it. I can somewhat forgive it since it's a 20 year old game though and Shenmue 3 (and 4!) should be moving away from it not leaning in further.

Shenmue III is much lighter in that regard and thus highlights the grind more because of the lack of pay-off. Had the story elements been stronger I suspect people wouldn't be so upset about it. It's definitely not a cornerstone of the series as a whole.

Kind of. It's possible the gameplay loop was added for that very reason. I'm not against the games having these things if they were completely optional. Remove the stamina system and fix the leveling to be like the old games and it would fix 80% of it for me. Still, I don't like it when games but arbitrary bullshit you need to halt your progress to deal with and Shenmue shouldn't get a pass from us just because we're fans.

 

[Thomasina]

Not fun in your eyes, its personal opinion & not fact. So stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. I spent probably the same amount of time in Shenmue 2 back in the day getting the money for the first street fight.

Also many RPG games have elements of grinding in them. Be it for levels, skills or money to get to an endpoint.

Yes, everything I say is my opinion. I don't think that needs to be said every single time I post. Maybe you'd be less offended by my opinions if you could realize that every time I post, it's my opinion and I'm not in any way attempting to override your opinions with my own.

I don't see why Shenmue 2 gets a free pass because you can save scum it.

It doesn't get a free pass. We're still talking about it 20 years later.

You can earn money fighting, betting, chopping, fishing, herb picking, forklifting, winning arcade games and pawning. If you can't do some tasks from that list to earn money and advance the plot and consider that a grind then that's a shame.

It's grinding because the majority of it is repetitive.
- Chopping stays the same for the entirety of the game.
- Forklift driving was the same route every single time with no alternatives. It completely lacked the dynamic aspects of the first game, like people walking on the pier, and other forklifts, and finding the quickest path.
- Fishing is the same sequence for every single fish.
- Herb picking is alright, but the convoluted combination system was out of place and unnecessary,
- Pawning wasn't just a matter of a direct exchange. It involved running around buying nonsensical items like lamps and other household items and then trading those items for an unknown price. I personally avoided the entire exchange system until I couldn't any more because it was so uninteresting and yet so complex.

 

[ShenSun]

I dunno, i mean i had no issue buying the drink and martial arts move. By the time i reached Niaowu i was filthy rich and bought all those expensive clothing items because i had so much cash. My personal favorite being the black kung fun outfit. Admittedly, I spent like 25 hours in Bailu and 20 hours in Niaowu so i made full use of everything. But all i did was do odd jobs here and there, do some gambling, fishing, etc. It all added up. I should also add i played on the hardest difficulty from the get go.

If you rush the game and try to progress the story without training, then your fighting will suffer, as will your stamina. (Side note my stamina was perfectly fine after a couple of days. I spent my mornings training hard at martial hall)

If you don't interact with the economy, you will be punished hard down the road. After training in the morning, id do the odd job for Mr Tao and some fishing. It became very clear on the second day that the big guy in joy park gave you good return for your gambling.

Money, Stamina, the leveling system etc was never an issue for me because time was managed efficiently. The training system was awesome because that forced me to practice my marital arts rather than fight here and there in an empty car park or see progression through a cutscene.

Maybe all of this should be preserved for the hardest difficulty, but then all my friends went through the game relatively easy on normal so i dunno. Maybe its lack of patience and the need for instant gratification thats the issue. This has become a problem in general outside of gaming.

I've seen the same issues brought up though around the forum so a readjustment couldn't hurt and should take place.

In Shenmue 4, Suzuki should make an ultra easy mode with quest markers, arrows, directions, and as much hand holding as possible. That should hopefully satisfy newcomers. He should also make an easy mode for Shenmue fans so they can just run through the story in a short amount of time and not interact with everything that the game has to offer. Maybe even put some prompts and direction in there aswell as a precaution. Hardcore mode should be the same as Shenmue 3. That's what id be going for

Ultimately Suzuki is damned no matter what he does. As i said in my previous post when Shenmue 4 and 5 comes out some will love it and some will hate it. It is what it is.

 

[Thomasina]

In terms of grinding, on their original play-through did anyone else just wood chop their way to 2000 even if it took longer cause fishing and gambling are not that fun

I tried to mix it up. Fishing I would just zone out and not look at the screen until the indicators came on. Sometimes I would have play sessions for the sole purpose of doing chores and earning money. It killed my enjoyment of the game. Coming home from work and planning "ok, today I'm going to play for an hour, but I'm only going to fish and chop wood, and then I'll stop and do that again tomorrow"..... What made it worse is after catching a ton of fish, I still only ended up with an abysmal amount of cash and it wasn't worth it.

In Niaowou I would resort back to chopping because it was the shortest mini game.

 

[Thomasina]

Remove the stamina system

That's another thing about the game, is you always need to buy food, so the grinding has less pay off because instead of doing the fun things like playing arcades or buying move scrolls, a large portion of your earnings have to go to food just so you can function in the game.

If players weren't forced to grind to buy food, the grinding would be way less problematic.

I think if the food system were removed, my experience would have been significantly more positive. It ruined the game for me.

 

[spud1897]

Yes, everything I say is my opinion. I don't think that needs to be said every single time I post. Maybe you'd be less offended by my opinions if you could realize that every time I post, it's my opinion and I'm not in any way attempting to override your opinions with my own.


It doesn't get a free pass. We're still talking about it 20 years later.


It's grinding because the majority of it is repetitive.
- Chopping stays the same for the entirety of the game.
- Forklift driving was the same route every single time with no alternatives. It completely lacked the dynamic aspects of the first game, like people walking on the pier, and other forklifts, and finding the quickest path.
- Fishing is the same sequence for every single fish.
- Herb picking is alright, but the convoluted combination system was out of place and unnecessary,
- Pawning wasn't just a matter of a direct exchange. It involved running around buying nonsensical items like lamps and other household items and then trading those items for an unknown price. I personally avoided the entire exchange system until I couldn't any more because it was so uninteresting and yet so complex.

Maybe you would do better to watch your tone with the other users on here and show some respect for their opinions and maybe some will respect yours.

And yes you are as everytime this comes up you're shouting this isn't defendable

 

[hmjohnny]

I think if the food system were removed, my experience would have been significantly more positive. It ruined the game for me

This is the crux of it. The single biggest mistake Shenmue 3 made was the inclusion of the stamina system. Thankfully it's also an easy mistake to remedy.

 

[Thomasina]

This is a text based format so I'm not sure why you insist on telling me what my tone is, or why you think I'm shouting. If I wanted to convey shouting, I'd use bold, italics, CAPS, or even an exclamation point!!! I'm not doing any of that.

Thankfully it's also an easy mistake to remedy.

What do you mean by this?

 

[code l name]

It's grinding because the majority of it is repetitive.

- Forklift driving was the same route every single time with no alternatives. It completely lacked the dynamic aspects of the first game, like people walking on the pier, and other forklifts, and finding the quickest path.

Not sure if it’s worth responding because every game can be broken down into simplistic descriptors, i.e. Mario is repetitive because all you do is jump.

However this is patently false to say route remains same as there is several variants. Not as diverse as original with much larger harbour, plus this time you had added challenge of additional types of cargo.

 

[hmjohnny]

Grinding, like anything in life, is a fantastic if done in moderation.

I don't think I would call it fantastic. Grinding generally has a negative connotation to it.

grind also means boring, tedious work, often in the sense of "grind away" or "the daily grind.

Grinding is a term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game

I'm not saying that ppl can't find it enjoyable but generally that's the case when you choose to do it. using an RPG as an example: if you want to reach max level that may require grinding and can be seen as worth it to the player who values that. Not so if you simply cannot progress the game unless you spend considerable time repeatably levelling until you are strong enough to proceed.

Regardless, it's something that shouldn't be leaned into if you want any kind of mass appeal.

What do you mean by this?

They can just remove it from Shenmue 4 and it won't cost them anything to do.

 

[Thomasina]

However this is patently false to say route remains same as there is several variants.

No there's not. There's the front door and the back door. It's the same route to both doors, as everything else is blocked off by pylons. To me, the forklift driving is the most blatant "fan service" in the game because it clearly seems to be thrown in there with minimal effort.

 

[spud1897]

This is a text based format so I'm not sure why you insist on telling me what my tone is, or why you think I'm shouting. If I wanted to convey shouting, I'd use bold, italics, CAPS, or even an exclamation point!!! I'm not doing any of that.


What do you mean by this?

Lol you came in here an insulted the majority of the users by saying they were deluded if they liked Shenmue III and then claimed your tone wasn't the problem. So yes tone is a problem as is when you talk down to others who challenge you.

That's the crux of it. This threads being derailed. PM me to discuss further if needed.

 

[Thomasina]

The thread is on topic and everyone is having no issue discussing the game. The only thing off topic is you puffing your chest at me, as you do in every topic. If you want to discuss it then PM me as you're the one who has the issue.

 

[Sergeynest]

No there's not. There's the front door and the back door. It's the same route to both doors, as everything else is blocked off by pylons. To me, the forklift driving is the most blatant "fan service" in the game because it clearly seems to be thrown in there with minimal effort.

Sorry man, but I really don't see where is the minimum effort.
They made a dock, a boat, a detailed warehouse, the forklift, npc's and besides having just boxes to carry like in the first one , they made a ton of other stuff like arcade machines, statues, Jars, etc...
Its fan service but at the same time makes sense because it is a tourist river town.
Not to be rude but if you can do it better why don't you sign in and help out.

 

[ShenSun]

The thread is on topic and everyone is having no issue discussing the game. The only thing off topic is you puffing your chest at me, as you do in every topic. If you want to discuss it then PM me as you're the one who has the issue.

Just for the record, im the one who has banned your account for 48 hours. I've just caught up on all the threads and seen how you continue to post in the same aggressive tone over and over again. Belittling others and always become standoffish when someone doesn't share the same opinion as you. Come back with a better attitude. All the other members who have a different opinion conduct themselves in a calm, reasonable manner. You should too.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

As I said hard to quantify. Depends on how you look at it. The core gameplay loop in S3 requires you to level up Kung Fu which requires you to train moves over and over again which requires you to buy expensive move scrolls which requires you to earn money, albeit in a variety of ways (which I appreciate!). A good chunk of the game is doing this, and tbh it felt punishing to play at times especially when you add the stamina system requiring you to constantly eat. this means a huge chunk of the game is about earning money and the game is designed to minimize the gambling exploits from S2 making it take way longer. This feels like padding to me and if you prefer that term to grinding then so be it I don't want to mince words here if you feel grinding must purely be repetitive.

What makes matters worse is there 2 times in the game where you have to basically scrum for money to get behind a paywall for the game to continue. I would see this as bad in any game.

FWIW I personally don't give S2 a pass for it. It was one of the (few) things I didn't like about the game since the first time I played it. I can somewhat forgive it since it's a 20 year old game though and Shenmue 3 (and 4!) should be moving away from it not leaning in further.


Kind of. It's possible the gameplay loop was added for that very reason. I'm not against the games having these things if they were completely optional. Remove the stamina system and fix the leveling to be like the old games and it would fix 80% of it for me. Still, I don't like it when games but arbitrary bullshit you need to halt your progress to deal with and Shenmue shouldn't get a pass from us just because we're fans.

No problem, points taken and obliged; I can't fully agree with your POV though, no biggie :)

I'm not saying that ppl can't find it enjoyable but generally that's the case when you choose to do it. using an RPG as an example: if you want to reach max level that may require grinding and can be seen as worth it to the player who values that. Not so if you simply cannot progress the game unless you spend considerable time repeatably levelling until you are strong enough to proceed.

Regardless, it's something that shouldn't be leaned into if you want any kind of mass appeal.

I LOVE the daily grind lol and I can definitely see how the tedium can set in, in everyday life... but personally, I feel that, as mentioned above, the grind is what keeps us going and living; moderation is key (which is why you need vacations/escapes/vices/whatever, to balance everything out).

Thanks for discussing this maturely, btw, I appreciate it :)