Why the story in Shenmue 3 is good/Why the story in Shenmue 3 is bad

[Truck_1_0_1_]

That still doesn't explain why Ryo remarks upon her at all on the boat. Why does he give special attention to her? Because of her looks? The fact that she disappears from the main narrative until appearing in the Red Snakes hideout as well makes it all the more conspicuous. Having her tag along as a friend and/or interacting with her would have had a greater effect. We know she speaks with Shenhua, and we know with the Character Perspective System we serve supposed to play as Shenhua; perhaps this is where the interaction with Li Feng would have appeared (besides her sitting down in a cafe)?

Agree with that 100%.

I think he and Shenhua both remark about her because she approached them on the boat or something of that nature (the dialog is hard to gather how they indeed encountered each other, initially).

It could also be 100% the devs just placing emphasis on her, to get our minds going.

 

[iknifaugood]

I would also agree with @iknifaugood that there's a bit of a disconnect between how the idea of training is implemented in the story, especially compared to Shenmue 2. In Shenmue 2, you're being taught martial arts philosophy and ethics, discipline, and yes, some new moves like in Shenmue 3. But the difference in Shenmue 3 is the act of "learning" those moves is functionally there to just gate the story. There's not really the sense that Ryo is learning things like any martial artist of true virtue should know (like the wude).

Just to clarify this a bit, my issue with how training is handled in S3 is threefold:

1. The story makes it very clear that Ryo's strength doesn't matter; he's strong enough to beat them, he just doesn't have the move he needs to win, therefore training is not something he has to do, therefore the story isn't about him training. This also runs counter to how every other "unbeatable" opponent in S1 and 2 are handled and runs counter to how martial arts actually works.

2. The set up is all wrong; the bad guys defeat Ryo and just wait around for him to try again? Zero effort was put into making anything about this make any kind of sense and the fact that it's repeated again is just unforgivable imo. (it doesn't actually bother me all that much that random thugs are posing such a challenge to Ryo at this point, but it is worth pointing out that these villains are not threatening in the least so overcoming them is anticlimactic at best)

3. The stamina training microgames are weird and alienating and take way too long to progress and the strength training is actually useless without a new move equipped (which is SUPER not how martial arts works).

If the story was set up in a way that Ryo had encountered Mr. Muscles in Bailu Village, was defeated by him and his strange martial arts style, and the game required Ryo to actually learn how to counter that style while resisting the urge to follow him to Niaowu (maybe he learns that Lan Di and the CYM are in Niaowu) and rush in unprepared, then that would indeed be a story about Ryo training. As it stands, it's about Ryo learning 2 nearly identical moves in order to beat 2 nearly identical opponents.

 

[hmjohnny]

Regarding the training being integrated into the story, I agree with a lot being said here already.

Out of curiosity though do we know that the game doesn't gate you from progressing without training?
I, and I assume most players, were already doing the training and fighting at the dojo alongside the main quest. Is it possible to learn the body checks at any level? Or will the game stop you from learning the move and force you to grind if you are not at a minimum level to progress?

If it's the latter then you could make a (weak) case that training is a part of the story.

 

[titanium3819]

If I remember well, Master Sun asks you to fight in the Dojo until you beat White Tiger at least before (or after?) having you catch the chickens (maybe it was between two sessions, can't remember). In my playthrough I already had defeated him so I was able to go on without grinding, but I guess you might call it a way to force you to grind as there's little chance the player would defeat White Tiger without training at least a bit.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Shiling's got it; you MUST beat *Gold* Tiger, before he will teach you the moves.

 

[iknifaugood]

If I remember well, Master Sun asks you to fight in the Dojo until you beat White Tiger at least before (or after?) having you catch the chickens (maybe it was between two sessions, can't remember). In my playthrough I already had defeated him so I was able to go on without grinding, but I guess you might call it a way to force you to grind as there's little chance the player would defeat White Tiger without training at least a bit.

True but this still doesn't really address any of my criticisms as the game is still not about Ryo training. He doesn't need to train to beat the boss, he needs to train to "prove his worth" to Master Sun in order to learn the move to beat the boss (I too had already beaten everyone at the dojo during my play through at that point). I don't remember, does Ryo have to defeat anyone in Niaowu in order to learn the second move?

 

[Creward]

Um, of course it does. Training is a large part of the gameplay. You need to train and get stronger to be able to beat the game. Even the story beats are about Ryo learning new moves.


No, finding Yuan is the McGuffin that gets Ryo from point A to point B, it isn't about Yuan really at all. It's about Ryo progressing as a martial artist.


Of course it does, everything about the gameplay is tied into training and getting stronger. Train your endurance to be able to get around easier, train your attack to hit harder, hell the entire in-game economy is based entirely around getting move scrolls.


It certainly doesn't teach us more about the Chi You Men, but how could anyone possibly say it doesn't develop Ryo and Shenhua's relationship? I wonder how much effort and time went into their night time conversations?

I certainly have some major issues with the game's character development and story, but your complaints are borderline nonsensical to me. Did we play the same game?

I completly disagree on the training part being properly done gameplaywise. I have played game reaaaaly slowly so in Bailu I max kungfu when I faced the Thugs and the game just makes me lose because I do not have the "supermove".

That is a clear example of ludonarrative dissonance where gameplay told me yeah you are the strongest you can but the story did not and forced a staged failure just to force Ryo to learn a move that is used once. Take as an example the Landi fight in that fight it is imposible to actually hurt him and the gameplay and story aligns with the message that Ryo ia not ready to face him.

The forced loses would actually have been better as unwinable qte sequences than actual fights.

 

[titanium3819]

True but this still doesn't really address any of my criticisms as the game is still not about Ryo training. He doesn't need to train to beat the boss, he needs to train to "prove his worth" to Master Sun in order to learn the move to beat the boss (I too had already beaten everyone at the dojo during my play through at that point). I don't remember, does Ryo have to defeat anyone in Niaowu in order to learn the second move?

Yes, Master Bei asks you to defeat White Dragon from Wu Shen Hall. Guess that's why I was mistaken about Gold Tiger earlier.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

I really wish either Dojo master, but espcially the one in Bailu, had an ounce of personality and were maybe some what relevant to the plot?

Like, why not make Sun or Feng master of the Bailu Dojo, and we can learn about how Iwao trained there?

In Niaowu, if Fat Man was going to come be your bud at the end of the game, why not make him master of the Niaowu Dojo? Or the guy with the white beard at that other temple that had no plot relevance whatsoever?

 

[Sh3ppy]

Or the guy with the white beard at that other temple that had no plot relevance whatsoever?

Well he does give you a skill book that once belonged to Iwao... Not huge plot relevance but there is that.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

and there was this really weird lack of urgency in a few moments ("gotta go stop the thugs that I know are up that path right now, but oh wait, I guess I'll play hide and seek!" and "The thugs took a hostage and are staying put in this house for some reason for days on end! I'll let them chill there for a few days and save the kid at my convenience since they'll just stay at that same location 24/7").

I can't think of an open world video game where this sort of thing doesn't happen, to be fair. It's especially prevalent in the Yakuza series.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Oh yeah!

lol, I spent 3 days on one chapter in Judge Eyes, completing side stories, VR and a few other things, all the while I had to hurry in-story XD

 

[iknifaugood]

I can't think of an open world video game where this sort of thing doesn't happen, to be fair.

The difference is that in most (good) open world games, following the story missions is presented with a sense of urgency whereas in S3, it's not. Playing hide and seek with kids is not some random side mission, it's something you have to do while searching for Shenhua's father while the section of the tiny village that the bad guys are in is arbitrarily gated off. It's a combination of such poor storytelling and bad game design that I honestly can't think of a similar example.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

The difference is that in most (good) open world games, following the story missions is presented with a sense of urgency

No it's not, stop it.

Saving Haruka from thugs in Yakuza should be priority #1, yet you can go play UFO catcher for 5 hours if you wish.

 

[iknifaugood]

Saving Haruka from thugs in Yakuza should be priority #1, yet you can go play UFO catcher for 5 hours if you wish.

I said following the story missions. Obviously the player can pursue whatever side content they want, or run in circles, or stand completely still for days on end if they want to.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

lol but it's not. You can spin it any way you wish, but that is a false claim and EVERY open-world game has proven that.

Again, the only time there is an actual sense of urgency, is if there is a timer/clock present (which Yakuza specifically, does VERY infrequently).

 

[iknifaugood]

lol but it's not. You can spin it any way you wish, but that is a false claim and EVERY open-world game has proven that.

Again, the only time there is an actual sense of urgency, is if there is a timer/clock present (which Yakuza specifically, does VERY infrequently).

You're completely misrepresenting the argument. Open world games have a sense of urgency within their story missions; in between those missions, anything goes. I can't name a single game where you have to find someone in a tiny village but in order to do so, the main character will just arbitrarily refuse to explore the whole village and decide to play hide and seek with a bunch of kids to try to find out information instead as part of the story.

 

[hmjohnny]

I can't think of an open world video game where this sort of thing doesn't happen, to be fair. It's especially prevalent in the Yakuza series

All games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance to some extent. As others have mentioned you could technically drop the controller, have your character stand still and nothing would happen most of the time.

Some games are worse at it though depending on what their stories are about. In FF7's third act you literally have a planet destroying meteor overhead but can spend all your time at the Gold Saucer dicking around; the sense of urgency is destroyed but it's a necessary compromise.

Shenmue has been called an open world game a lot recently but I don't think it ever was, not in the modern sense of the word. In most open world games the main missions are quite separate from the sandbox of the world itself. Shenmue plays more like an RPG, it has side content, mini-games etc. but it only has one quest at time that you can work towards. Talking to NPC's is always about the quest at hand, you can't deselect it and just not do the quest at all like in GTA.

Also, Shenmue, especially 3, has urgency at the forefront of its story. The way that is told through the main mission structure has to count for something.

 

[Creward]

It is not that hard to have a in-game justification for some of the "urgent" missions in Shwnmuw3

The scene would have been excessively different if when Ryo is about to collapse one of the thugs ask the other one "how much we need to wait for the informant to come back?" the other then responds "3 weeks" and you have a justification and a possible bad ending scene.

Is not as we have that many life and death situations here like a meteorite falling.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Dude's nitpicking. I run into the same type of scenario in every open world game. You don't even have to sleep or eat in most open world games. Is that bad writing too?