Why the story in Shenmue 3 is good/Why the story in Shenmue 3 is bad

[RyoIsTheShenmueTree]

I think that Yu Suzuki chose to flesh out the world by having random NPCs send us on random fetch quests, when he could have had us interact with story related characters and villains more to create more story.

Of all of the characters(not named Ren or Shenhua) we probably spent the most time with Jiusi Sun, the drunken master who lives in the abandoned shrine.

We spend almost no time with Grandmaster Feng. I spent more time talking to Wenxu Su, the old guy in Bailu who has all of the tall tales.
This is what the budget allowed them to do in the other games. We also had different types of gameplay like the infiltration mission in S1 and the mission where you had to follow Don Niu's henchman in S2.

That said, Bailu had us interact much more with story related characters than Niaowu. I only interacted with Qiu Hsu (fat martial artist #2) once or twice. We only interact with Shiling Lin (broom girl) once, or maybe twice, because her shrine was vandalized, and yet she shows up to help us storm the Old Castle like Keira Metz showing up at the battle of Kaer Morhen in Witcher 3.

Do we ever actually learn the name of the Red Snakes leader?

Now that I think of it, if Bailu was built before Niaowu, it makes sense that this area's characters are more fleshed out if YsNet was running out of time and money to finish the game, especially knowing that the game had to have some kind of finale, no matter how undercooked we feel it is, a lot of resources probably went into the cutscene heavy last hour or 2 of the game.

 

[Vivi-gamer]

I feel that many of the Pros & Cons are separated by the locations, Bailu Village was a brilliant experience but Niaowu had nothing to offer. I personally would have preferred Niaowu to but cut entirely (Not including the Fortress section of course) & Have Bailu Village expanded upon more - More time with the masters and learning about Iwao & his time there - Also about Ryo's mother.

The biggest problem was the extension of the plot revolving around Shenhua's father - He should have been rescued in Bailu Village and given us information that would compel us to go to Niaowu, rather than the map we found at the tower which I still don't see what it was referring to that was actually in Niaowu...

An easy way to have fixed Niaowu would have been to have Niao Sun as a replacement for Mister Muscles. While you could say she was actually in charge of the Red Snakes, I think we needed to experience tension against her through out that whole section - Like Yuan & Dou Niu in Shenmue, a reoccurring threat that builds the oppositions presence. Niao Sun's appearance/actions in the Fortress is underwhelming as we've barely met her as a character still.

I was against the idea of DLC, but I am now sort of hoping that it brings more unique content to Niaowu as a whole. I'm not expecting a complete 180 on the narrative, but more side stories would be nice.

 

[scooterusa]

I feel that many of the Pros & Cons are separated by the locations, Bailu Village was a brilliant experience but Niaowu had nothing to offer. I personally would have preferred Niaowu to but cut entirely (Not including the Fortress section of course) & Have Bailu Village expanded upon more - More time with the masters and learning about Iwao & his time there - Also about Ryo's mother.

The biggest problem was the extension of the plot revolving around Shenhua's father - He should have been rescued in Bailu Village and given us information that would compel us to go to Niaowu, rather than the map we found at the tower which I still don't see what it was referring to that was actually in Niaowu...

An easy way to have fixed Niaowu would have been to have Niao Sun as a replacement for Mister Muscles. While you could say she was actually in charge of the Red Snakes, I think we needed to experience tension against her through out that whole section - Like Yuan & Dou Niu in Shenmue, a reoccurring threat that builds the oppositions presence. Niao Sun's appearance/actions in the Fortress is underwhelming as we've barely met her as a character still.

I was against the idea of DLC, but I am now sort of hoping that it brings more unique content to Niaowu as a whole. I'm not expecting a complete 180 on the narrative, but more side stories would be nice.

I generally agree with this point but I love the urbanity of Niaowu. If it had just a bit more story and main characters to interact with, along with some more NPCs (to make it feel full), a later curfew), and some additional late night activities (pool/billiards/darts), It would have been amazing.

 

[shredingskin]

Thinking about the game again I believe that the tone of the game isn't very developed.
The first one had a somewhat noir flavor, dreary, the revenge plot was in every corner, and kept it mysterious with a ominous feel throughout.
The second one went for a more asian martial arts movie, going for both the spiritual aspect of it in the first part and a more hands on/action aspect in the second part. The guilin section seemed to be Ryo reconnecting with nature and a more straight up / simple "version of life", "how easy was my life" type of deal.
The third one... I expected a lot more nature connection in bailu, I guess the chicken chasing was something, but nothing more, fishing was more of a sport for the guys than an actual way of living, the cows were just kinda there, Shenhua just made some allusions to taking care of animals but nothing substantial, the stone masons the same, the were just carvers, I guess the herb minigame was something similar to what I was expecting. But the overall plot of that section didn't really mix well in tone for me. Maybe I had a weird expectation, since when you arrive in guilin in SII it feels like a place forgotten by humans (with shoeless kids, people just having a nap on grass, Shenhua telling you how they struggle for certain things, but then in Bailu we don't see much of that).
And Niaowu, just felt like a tourist backdrop.

I can't really say I felt any strong tone from the overall game, like I did with the older ones.

 

[iknifaugood]

Maybe I had a weird expectation, since when you arrive in guilin in SII it feels like a place forgotten by humans (with shoeless kids, people just having a nap on grass, Shenhua telling you how they struggle for certain things, but then in Bailu we don't see much of that).

I felt exactly the same way. We met Shenhua as she's making a 2 day journey for supplies and when we get to Bailu Village there are several fully stocked shops that carry $2000 bottles of wine.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

You guys would've been free of complaints had Bailu simply consisted of three huts and a couple of country people. That's for sure.

 

[GhostTrick]

Thinking about the game again I believe that the tone of the game isn't very developed.
The first one had a somewhat noir flavor, dreary, the revenge plot was in every corner, and kept it mysterious with a ominous feel throughout.
The second one went for a more asian martial arts movie, going for both the spiritual aspect of it in the first part and a more hands on/action aspect in the second part. The guilin section seemed to be Ryo reconnecting with nature and a more straight up / simple "version of life", "how easy was my life" type of deal.
The third one... I expected a lot more nature connection in bailu, I guess the chicken chasing was something, but nothing more, fishing was more of a sport for the guys than an actual way of living, the cows were just kinda there, Shenhua just made some allusions to taking care of animals but nothing substantial, the stone masons the same, the were just carvers, I guess the herb minigame was something similar to what I was expecting. But the overall plot of that section didn't really mix well in tone for me. Maybe I had a weird expectation, since when you arrive in guilin in SII it feels like a place forgotten by humans (with shoeless kids, people just having a nap on grass, Shenhua telling you how they struggle for certain things, but then in Bailu we don't see much of that).
And Niaowu, just felt like a tourist backdrop.

I can't really say I felt any strong tone from the overall game, like I did with the older ones.

That's exactly how I feel. When I played Shenmue II, Bailu felt like a mysterious and mystical village lost in the woods. Deep inside the mountains. The forest felt like some mystical place cut from civilisation.

In fact, it felt like Languishan was supposed to be the place were Bailu villagers came to get stuff. Instead ? It feels like Languishan was actually the lost village. And Bailu was actually a big village with regular kids. Heck, remember how that kid in Languishan was wearing different clothes ? And never heard of gachapon ? Well, kids in Bailu village looks like your average kid that knows about all those "modern" japanese stuff. Heck, they even have an arcade wtf. Even if if you forget about the "gameplay elements" even in term of design, Bailu doesn't make sense.

You guys would've been free of complaints had Bailu simply consisted of three huts and a couple of country people. That's for sure.

At least, it would've felt unique and it would've made more sense.

 

[iknifaugood]

You guys would've been free of complaints had Bailu simply consisted of three huts and a couple of country people. That's for sure.

I would've settled for a remote martial arts village where Ryo trains under his father's old master, learns about phantom river stone, the mirror's magical properties, the Shenmue tree, the "proof" that Shenhua's father wrote about, and the poem that outlines a prophecy specifically about Ryo and Shenhua that originated in the fucking village but maybe that's just me. Capsule toys and grinding for money that was considered prohibitively expensive 2 games ago is definitely way more core to the Shenmue experience than all that nonsense...

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Alas, Ys Net never considered hiring Shenmue Dojo user iknifaugood to direct his own Shenmue game.

 

[iknifaugood]

Alas, Ys Net never considered hiring Shenmue Dojo user iknifaugood to direct his own Shenmue game.

Unfortunately they were too busy listening to other Shenmue fans who wanted to make sure Chai, forklift racing, and phone calls to characters from previous games made it in instead of paying off story elements that were set up in the cliffhanger ending that they sold the Kickstarter campaign on.

(EDIT) Also some of the things I mentioned, like finding out about the poem and the Shenmue tree were things that Suzuki promised would be in the game.

 

[bellator]

Alas, Ys Net never considered hiring Shenmue Dojo user iknifaugood to direct his own Shenmue game.

Looking at his post and what we actually got in the game, maybe they should have.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

I just finished my second run. Story wise, Shenmue 3 is a waste. Gave in 69 hours of my life into it. With all due respect, it's not worth the debate. The game can't and won't be fixed. I still a fan and would give another go on the series, but I fell no matter what, Shenmue IV won't be good enough. We dreamed getting a good game and got a joke.

 

[shredingskin]

You guys would've been free of complaints had Bailu simply consisted of three huts and a couple of country people. That's for sure.

I'd be happier if one of those country people was a villain that actually had any development, for sure.

But really I do feel like there is a very thematic tone to the first games, and in SIII feels like the theme is "train a lot" (which is also kinda covered in the first and second), and tried to implement it at the gameplay level, but I don't know what the thematic feel is. I felt a lot more connected with nature in the guilin portion of the second part, hell, even to Shenhua. Which seems to have been the actual focus of Bailu in SIII in theory, but in practice it's miss-able sidecontent contained in optional dialogue, while the actual game is about finding and defeating a thug that is not interesting at all and has no major connection to the overall story.

Each area of SI had a feel a theme and a progression, Ryo's house has cozy but still intricate enough to lose yourself in, the place where you learn to investigate, the place that still holds secrets even to Ryo.
Yamanose is the nexus between inward and outward, with the cat being an "emotional anchor" for the game that mimicks Ryo's state (and also used as a plot tool).
Sakuragaoka is the residential part of town where Ryo probably grew, his friends are there, the little town vendor, the gossipy neighbours.
Dobuita is the center, and a juxtaposition for the overall Yokosuka region, a small port town, which has both the little town aspect and the "strangers" from the port coming at night to have a drink.
The port is a straight forward place (and you can even see that in the rectilinear architecture), with a seedier undertone, making the contrast between his highschooler life and he "manning up", getting a job and leave his home.
It follows a progression between home and alien, between small and big, between people knowing you and people on their day just working.

Contrast it to Bailu or Niaowu, the stuff is just "there". I understand the dojo being one of the first things you see coming from Shenhua's house in the sense of reminding the player to practice or the watchtower being in the center of the map. Everything else I don't really see any thematic reason why (maybe it's just because I have a hard time trying to find an overall theme and feeling from the game).

I could go on and on, maybe it's just my nostalgia for the first games occluding my judgement or making me being extra harsh on S3, but I'm not the only one that feels that on a narrative level the game was lacking.

 

[GhostTrick]

I just finished my second run. Story wise, Shenmue 3 is a waste. Gave in 69 hours of my life into it. With all due respect, it's not worth the debate. The game can't and won't be fixed. I still a fan and would give another go on the series, but I fell no matter what, Shenmue IV won't be good enough. We dreamed getting a good game and got a joke.

I understand the criticism here but I still feel like it's kinda exagerated. The game isn't broken. It's still a decent game at its core. Same for the story. The problem is, for me, it looks like Shenmue, it plays like Shenmue but it's not Shenmue. For reasons I already established before (cutscene direction, character developpement). It's still an enjoyable trip, but it's not a journey and yes, kinda feels like a filler episode.

 

[orient]

I actually have no idea what you consider to be important in terms of Shenmue's gameplay because you haven't articulated anything except to say you disagree with me.

You're right, it's not like we had a whole discussion on training via gameplay and how I think it's pretty darn important for a game about becoming a better martial artist.

Y'know, I was in the middle of replying to other parts of your post that continued to misconstrue most of what I said, when it hit me: this is a massive waste of time At least when I disagree with @GhostTrick and others I feel like I know their stance and they know mine.

 

[iknifaugood]

You're right, it's not like we had a whole discussion on training via gameplay and how I think it's pretty darn important for a game about becoming a better martial artist.

Y'know, I was in the middle of replying to other parts of your post that continued to misconstrue most of what I said

For someone who keeps saying I'm misconstruing what you're saying, you keep misconstruing what I'm saying, conflating points, or simply reading specific sentences out of context. We were not discussing "training via gameplay" when I made the comment you just quoted, we weren't even talking about Shenmue 3; we were talking about the importance of gameplay in the Shenmue series at large as well as other, less "gameplay forward" genres, like adventure games. I oversimplified Shenmue's gameplay to the point of "run around pressing A on things and fighting" and you... never really elaborated on any of it except to say that you disagree with me.

this is a massive waste of time

Welcome to the internet :)

At least when I disagree with @GhostTrick and others I feel like I know their stance and they know mine.

I spent the better part of my last post to you asking you to clarify your stance, specifically so I could better understand where you're coming from, and you refused to except to say that you disagree with me and now that it's a "waste of time".

To reiterate what we were discussing (feel free to let me know what I'm misconstruing):

1. Gameplay in Shenmue, as in adventure games, is important but secondary to the story (plot, setting, characters etc.) because without those, the gameplay doesn't stand on its own. As a counter point a game like, say, Super Mario Odyssey, places gameplay at the forefront because it stands on its own outside of story related context. You can skip all the cutscenes, the game can take place in any location, the characters are all interchangeable and the gameplay isn't affected: that isn't true of Shenmue or most adventure games.

2. I'll just copy/paste because if this is me misconstruing what you're saying then I'm not sure how:

You said: "examples of why the gameplay is nothing special: "...there's very little to do when it isn't tied to the story" and "all you do is walk around talking to people and sometimes performing minigames to earn money" -- examples that are just as true for II as they are for I and III (in fact, III has way more to do than I and II, but I digress)."

So if that isn't implying that S3 is better because it has more minigames then I don't actually know what you were driving at here.

3. I agree that there's value in providing more options to the player and allowing the player to approach things in their own way but Shenmue never does that. You can choose how to earn money in S2 and S3, that's it. In most games with actual player agency (like, say, Deus Ex), the choice would be whether or not you want to pay for an item, steal it, or talk someone into giving it to you. To be clear, this isn't a criticism of Shenmue; there's nothing wrong with being linear, but it doesn't provide much player choice.

4. I'm going to copy/paste this again because I'm genuinely curious what your response is:

So in Shenmue 1 (and parts of 3), when Ryo exhausts all there is to do and the only objective is "come back tomorrow" and you have several in game hours to kill, what would you call that? Or when the game just stops your progress and says "you now need X number of dollars to unlock the rest of the game", go play some minigames for a bit; that's what I consider to be a waste of time and you seem to consider a "major" aspect of the series, so my question is why? Is that part of the "life sim" element of Shenmue? Is it something you want to see more of from the series? Do you actually enjoy those parts?

 

[iknifaugood]

I understand the criticism here but I still feel like it's kinda exagerated. The game isn't broken.

No, it's not broken but that's a pretty low bar to clear in this day and age. I agree that the hate for S3 can be somewhat overstated but that's only because it had so far to fall from S2.

It's still a decent game at its core.

I disagree. The stamina system, the constant need to grind for strength and money, the drawn out interactions, the dearth of meaningful content, and the poor quest design are all drawbacks that would cripple any other game. Were it not the sequel to S2, I would have stopped playing for sure.

Same for the story.

Super disagree here. The story is bad because it lacks compelling characters, memorable villains, it has almost nothing at stake, most of the information is reiterated from the previous game, story points that were set up to be answered in the cliffhanger ending of S2 were seemingly abandoned, the relationship between Shenhua and Ryo lacks drama and depth, and the ending is a rushed, jumbled mess. At best it feels like a filler episode of a TV show, at worst it's downright incoherent.

The problem is, for me, it looks like Shenmue, it plays like Shenmue but it's not Shenmue.

THIS! Though I think they changed too much (specifically the stamina and combat systems) to truly feel like it plays like Shenmue.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I just finished my second run. Story wise, Shenmue 3 is a waste. Gave in 69 hours of my life into it. With all due respect, it's not worth the debate. The game can't and won't be fixed. I still a fan and would give another go on the series, but I fell no matter what, Shenmue IV won't be good enough. We dreamed getting a good game and got a joke.

Dude, can it.

Ghostrick said it better than me, but that's horseshit and you know it.

It's not a BAD game and nobody with a sane state of mind, expected this to be a groundbreaking game.

 

[orient]

For someone who keeps saying I'm misconstruing what you're saying, you keep misconstruing what I'm saying, conflating points, or simply reading specific sentences out of context. We were not discussing "training via gameplay" when I made the comment you just quoted, we weren't even talking about Shenmue 3; we were talking about the importance of gameplay in the Shenmue series at large as well as other, less "gameplay forward" genres, like adventure games. I oversimplified Shenmue's gameplay to the point of "run around pressing A on things and fighting" and you... never really elaborated on any of it except to say that you disagree with me.


Welcome to the internet :)


I spent the better part of my last post to you asking you to clarify your stance, specifically so I could better understand where you're coming from, and you refused to except to say that you disagree with me and now that it's a "waste of time".

To reiterate what we were discussing (feel free to let me know what I'm misconstruing):

1. Gameplay in Shenmue, as in adventure games, is important but secondary to the story (plot, setting, characters etc.) because without those, the gameplay doesn't stand on its own. As a counter point a game like, say, Super Mario Odyssey, places gameplay at the forefront because it stands on its own outside of story related context. You can skip all the cutscenes, the game can take place in any location, the characters are all interchangeable and the gameplay isn't affected: that isn't true of Shenmue or most adventure games.

2. I'll just copy/paste because if this is me misconstruing what you're saying then I'm not sure how:

You said: "examples of why the gameplay is nothing special: "...there's very little to do when it isn't tied to the story" and "all you do is walk around talking to people and sometimes performing minigames to earn money" -- examples that are just as true for II as they are for I and III (in fact, III has way more to do than I and II, but I digress)."

So if that isn't implying that S3 is better because it has more minigames then I don't actually know what you were driving at here.

3. I agree that there's value in providing more options to the player and allowing the player to approach things in their own way but Shenmue never does that. You can choose how to earn money in S2 and S3, that's it. In most games with actual player agency (like, say, Deus Ex), the choice would be whether or not you want to pay for an item, steal it, or talk someone into giving it to you. To be clear, this isn't a criticism of Shenmue; there's nothing wrong with being linear, but it doesn't provide much player choice.

4. I'm going to copy/paste this again because I'm genuinely curious what your response is:

So in Shenmue 1 (and parts of 3), when Ryo exhausts all there is to do and the only objective is "come back tomorrow" and you have several in game hours to kill, what would you call that? Or when the game just stops your progress and says "you now need X number of dollars to unlock the rest of the game", go play some minigames for a bit; that's what I consider to be a waste of time and you seem to consider a "major" aspect of the series, so my question is why? Is that part of the "life sim" element of Shenmue? Is it something you want to see more of from the series? Do you actually enjoy those parts?

"No you're doing the thing you said I was doing!" -- that's the level we're at right now.

Me: I'm no longer replying, this is pointless
You: Writes essay repeating yourself

 

[iknifaugood]

"No you're doing the thing you said I was doing!" -- that's the level we're at right now.

I very clearly outlined where you were misconstruing what I said (generally this is seen as a good faith gesture), a courtesy that you have not provided (a bad faith gesture).

You: Writes essay repeating yourself

Your last several replies to me were bitching that I was misconstruing what you were saying without pointing out where or how, so who's repeating themselves? I was attempting to get the conversation back on track and allow you to clarify.

this is pointless

Agreed.