Why the story in Shenmue 3 is good/Why the story in Shenmue 3 is bad

Has anyone considered that the inconsistency in Ryos ability is down to him as a person. He lacks judgement and control.

He rushes into things head first without thought or a clear head so this will impact when he fights. He's not even close to being a master yet. Ryo has ability for sure but everything he's learnt is only half baked at this stage.

I suspect in Shenmue 4 we might see a time skip/segment where Ryo goes into proper longer term training to push him forward.
 
iknifaugood said:
Ok but this thread is about the storyline, so it doesn’t really matter how much you like the gameplay, I thought the forklift driving was pretty good, how does it fit within the story and make it good?
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It's almost as if narrative and gameplay are interlinked and affect each other 😮 Trying to dismiss my points by creating a hard divide between story and gameplay, and then attempting to equate training with forklift driving to prove your point, can only be summed up by this emoji: 🥴 Really not interested in debating the "validity" of my opinions as decided by you. If the OP has any problems with me discussing how gameplay supports the story I'm sure they'll let me know.

iknifaugood said:
True but Suzuki has gone back and forth on the storyline, claiming it’s important and then downplaying it. I think it’s important that he recognize that mini games are not what people like Shenmue for and clearly not what are going to expand the audience.
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I honestly don't think we have to worry about the story feedback passing him by. It's literally one of the main criticisms for most players and is brought up all the time in reviews, YT videos etc. I'm sure he's already well aware of the game's shortcomings, also.

I don't think he's flip-flopping on how important the story is. I think he realised he wasn't going to be able to deliver everything he wanted with the story so he changed tactics and began to emphasise other aspects of the game. When you're selling something you've got to play to your strengths, after all.

For what it's worth, I would've preferred something else to the forklift returning. Taken on its own it's actually a pretty cool mini-game. It's fun and doesn't feel wildly out of place (feels more natural than having multiple big-ass arcades, for example)...but if they wanted to bring back mini-games I personally would've preferred multiple, smaller activities over forklifting...Big or Small, Darts, maybe some unique combat challenges like the wrestlers in II. In fact, adding more variety and polish to the combat would've been ideal. Oh well!
 
orient said:
It's almost as if narrative and gameplay are interlinked and affect each other 😮 Trying to dismiss my points by creating a hard divide between story and gameplay, and then attempting to equate training with forklift driving to prove your point, can only be summed up by this emoji: 🥴 Really not interested in debating the "validity" of my opinions as decided by you.
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I’m not saying your opinions are invalid, I’m saying you’re not making the connection between the gameplay and story. I know games tell narrative through their gameplay, I’ve explained how and given examples, but S3 does not. Training mini games are a way to pass time as a number increases the same way working the forklift or gambling or chopping wood is; it’s not woven into the story and the story that’s there (get a move to defeat an opponent while he casually waits around for weeks) is bad.

orient said:
I honestly don't think we have to worry about the story feedback passing him by. It's literally one of the main criticisms for most players and is brought up all the time in reviews, YT videos etc. I'm sure he's already well aware of the game's shortcomings, also.
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This is true, I’m sure he knows what’s wrong with the game but I’ve heard him say that Shenmue fans shouldn’t really concern themselves with the story because the games are about “more” than that. S4 is likely going to have an even smaller budget so I hope he has his priorities straight.

orient said:
I don't think he's flip-flopping on how important the story is. I think he realised he wasn't going to be able to deliver everything he wanted with the story so he changed tactics and began to emphasise other aspects of the game. When you're selling something you've got to play to your strengths, after all.
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I’ve considered this but I just keep coming back to “this story has been planned for 20 years”: THAT seems like it would’ve been the strength to focus on since it should’ve already existed. I just don’t see how we got from “the story is compromised” to “I won’t even try to tell the story so here’s Niaowu instead”. All while promising big story reveals and declaring the game bigger than the first two. It reads to me more like he knew that’s what people wanted and tried to contort what little he had to fit that image when in reality the story is either not very well planned out or just not very good.
 
I actually wish that some of those Characters in the castle were introduced in Niaowu - the end is far too bunched together into the castle.

However top marks for the Niao Sun reveal - I thought that was by far the best thing. I was wondering for the last hour or so why the woman from the boat had sent the Red Snakes away!!

I think it did just enough but I was disappointed in the story although it’s moved us on nicely in the end. Would of preferred a lot more relevant characters in the main game really.
 
The Niao Sun reveal worked for me, too. Most players won't go in looking for a reveal because, story-wise, we don't even know she exists, so I don't think it's obvious from that standpoint.

I didn't guess who she was until the hideout scene and even then, that scene was both intruiging and creepy. Her Japanese VO is spot on. When I realised she'd been monitoring Ryo, testing him even, I felt suitably tricked.
 
I have sat on my feelings about this game for over a month now, so its been given time to mature in my mind.

To be blunt the story presented and its grueling pace at which it is delivered is what has turned most people sour with the game. Its a plodding story, with no real character development with new characters simply being present and given no reason for helping Ryo and contributed next to nothing to his development, topped off with more story in the last 30 minutes in the entirety of the 25 hours beforehand that in retrospective really just feels like a bunch of side distractions and grinding to reach a unsatisfying conclusion in the form of a cliff hanger with a flawed translation the obscure what little information is there.

Its true that 3 could be setting up the foundation for the development of a 4th game both in the sense of its story, and the actual funding and partnerships to make a 4th game possible but its the weakest entry by far and the internet at large is calling it out on that. And to be quite frank if Shenmue 4 continues forward in the story with the same issues with pace and design I literally do not want it.

If they can not do a open world and a cohesive story on the budgets they can get, its pretty obvious which one should be sacrificed and likely should have been sacrificed in the third title. Shenmue 3 focused far to heavily on building a Shenmue like gameplay loop complete with arcades, jobs, and side distractions. Those elements were the best part of the game. But what purpose do those daily down to earth distractions and jobs serve if there is not a world built around them in order to give them purpose with story and colorful characters?

Bailu and Niowu had the exact same generic trope like structure between the two regions both of which made you dump large sums of in game currency and grind away at training in order to progress as obstacles to your progression. Whats more offensive about the training elements is the fact that combat is basically non-existant in the game outside of being an obstacle in your path that repeatedly makes you return to the grind. There are no random fights or minor encounters with side characters, and none of the fights in the main story were memorable or unique in their gamplay like in Shenmue 2's Kowloon especially.

You had the guy with an eye patch named Zhouhong Kong who was borderline impossible to beat unless you used that blind spot to your favor, or the fight with Sarah where your on the tight platform suspend upon a massive drop where if you fall off your done for, Master Baihu where your forced to fight for Joys life when he is brutally hard to kill and menacing to boot and clearly was meant to be someone of importance. But more importantly they all felt different, while the fight halls just felt like all the enemies progressively did more damage and got more health but otherwise fought the same.

Combat really was not important in Shenmue 3 at all, and when it was it essentially just felt like an obstacle with literally no relevance to overall plot because the stakes were incredibly low until the last moments of the game. There were no set pieces like the rooftop battle or the Sarah fight. The whole game felt like it was going down the Shenmue checklist and doing the absolute minimum to be a Shenmue game.

The most frustrating part of that for me is the vast majority of problems I have with the game came from story elements and building suspense and stakes, which this game never really bothered to do at all until the final moments. You fight the Red Snakes Leader supposedly named Longqi Ge,Yanlang, and Lan Di. But thats its besides grinding in Martial Halls, and those fights were not really anything special besides Lan Di's which does have stakes and weight to it because everything's going to hell lol.
Yanlang just kicks your teeth in outside some huts several times, and then you beat him normally and the same is true with Ge, your allowed to go back home to the homestead or hotel with zero issues. They don't drag you off to Lan Di or capture you and throw you somewhere, they just kick your around a bit and let you go which destroys any weight those fights could have had because loosing meant nothing.
 
Life_247 said:
I actually wish that some of those Characters in the castle were introduced in Niaowu - the end is far too bunched together into the castle.

However top marks for the Niao Sun reveal - I thought that was by far the best thing. I was wondering for the last hour or so why the woman from the boat had sent the Red Snakes away!!

I think it did just enough but I was disappointed in the story although it’s moved us on nicely in the end. Would of preferred a lot more relevant characters in the main game really.
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I disagree on Niao Sun's reveal- that whole scene in the hideout is just odd. Why would she talk like that whilst still in disguise? She should've still been playing innocent at that point and claimed she was kidnapped (and actually tied up) along with another girl and she'd overhead them say they'd taken her to the castle... Ryo/Ren save her and she actually helps organise the boat to cross and is part of the squad that crosses perhaps but stays behind at the dock. Then when you enter the room it's her still in disguise but she's standing there with henchmen and Shenhua but then starts talking as Niao Sun and then visually changes infront of Ryo. Ryo and Ren could've even discussed the fake mirror strategy on the boat over in front of her...

Also her general handling is poor- neither she , the castle or the CYM are mentioned by anyone in city, ever, to my knowledge. Only the red snakes... There could've been references to rumours of the red snakes working for a shadowy organisation by the locals (or even her in disguise herself still throughout the game... Her leaving the breadcrumbs to CYM/Castle throughout their little interactions in the game would've worked and added more weight and context to the reveal).
 
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🤢 Niao Sun reveal.. You'd have to use your imagination to the highest degree to fluff that one up because the game itself does nothing.
 
Like many side characters Lin Shiling (aka broom girl) may be underexploited in the main plot and side quests, however I found that she's one of the few NPC that have quite interesting dialog lines to say at any point in the game (compared to Mr Hsu/Fat man for example). Some of them are even quite funny, for example if you go see her when Ryo is looking for a way to get to the VIP section of that gambling place she'll be disappointed that Ryo might be a creep looking for cheap sensations. And few other lines come to mind as well, I really did enjoy talking to her as much as possible. I'd sure like to see her again in the future.
 
titanium3819 said:
Like many side characters Lin Shiling (aka broom girl) may be underexploited in the main plot and side quests, however I found that she's one of the few NPC that have quite interesting dialog lines to say at any point in the game (compared to Mr Hsu/Fat man for example). Some of them are even quite funny, for example if you go see her when Ryo is looking for a way to get to the VIP section of that gambling place she'll be disappointed that Ryo might be a creep looking for cheap sensations. And few other lines come to mind as well, I really did enjoy talking to her as much as possible. I'd sure like to see her again in the future.
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That's very cool. I will definitely make a point of speaking to her more often during my next playthrough.

I would also like to see her again. Despite my complaints about her seemingly being shoehorned into the final battle and beating enemies with a broom, I did like her character. Appearing again in the future would retroactively give more meaning to her presence at the end of Shenmue III. And judging by your post, it sounds like she does actually have a decent amount of optional character development depending on how much you talk to her (which is the case for many NPCs in the Shenmue series).
 
I do think Yu has got bogged down making a Shenmue engine - there's an obscene amount of mini games (Turtle Racing, Pail Toss, High/Low & Colour Gambling, Lucky Hit, Whack a Mole, QTE Title, Boxing QTE, The Pinball Type thing, Racing Game, Chobo Fighter). You can also work doing Chopping Wood, Forklifts, Gathering Herbs & catching Ducks. Now this could of been the team learning the engine and working on things but it seems mad for a mid budget title.

The "quests" in the game feel almost tutorially the whole way through - find someone, fight and lose, work on training, return and win. Its basically wash and repeat. Why the game doesn't make you complete the Rose Garden fights or have another tournament you have to complete I don't really know. I hope that there is another game because with so many Shenmue elements in the system, the Unreal engine will upgrade as required for next-gen and Yu can concenrate on the Game rather than mechanics.

For the next game I don't think we really need anything additional other than more training games - personally I would of liked a QTE training game to increase Stamina.
 
Life_247 said:
I actually wish that some of those Characters in the castle were introduced in Niaowu - the end is far too bunched together into the castle.

However top marks for the Niao Sun reveal - I thought that was by far the best thing. I was wondering for the last hour or so why the woman from the boat had sent the Red Snakes away!!

I think it did just enough but I was disappointed in the story although it’s moved us on nicely in the end. Would of preferred a lot more relevant characters in the main game really.
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For me, Niao Sun had to be the biggest letdown of the game. Plot twists only work if there's been some kind of setup - something to give you expectations that can then be turned upside down. But both twists involving her character come out of nowhere. Let's imagine for a sec that we haven't had 18 years to pour over concept art and old developer interviews regarding this character. Without our knowledge as fans to say, "Oh, that's Niao Sun!" there is no reveal. Instead, a character who we know nothing about is suddenly revealed to be...a different character we know nothing about - not even her name! And a few minutes later, this character reveals that she's betraying Lan Di...again, with no setup or explanation. We have no clue that she's a leader of the Chiyoumen or that she has any connection to Lan Di whatsoever outside of being in the same castle. One might guess that she's just the leader of the Red Snakes since her red dress and hair are her only defining features [insert boob joke]. Might as well have been one of the nameless black-suited thugs suddenly betraying Lan Di.

Imagine if, instead of just being a girl that Ryo randomly notices on the boat to Niawu and then bumps into a couple of times, Li Feng were established in Bailu as someone who comes to Ryo for help. Maybe she pretends that her father is the other stonemason who was captured (who, not to diverge, was also useless to the story) and Ryo ends up helping her the same way he's helping Shenhua. Even better, you get to know her over the course of the game through similar conversations to the ones you have with Shenhua at night. All the while, we learn subtle clues from beating up thugs about the mysterious, faceless leader of the Chi You Men that seems to be pulling all their strings. Now the twist at the end of Li Feng being the villain we've been searching for all along suddenly packs a huge punch.

If you enjoyed the story, that's great. Hard for me to say if I'd be as critical of the story had it played out 18 years ago right after 1 & 2. 34-year-old Mike is way more jaded and critical of his entertainment than he was as a teenager...
 
With Niao Sun, Suzuki basically invented the concept of meta-plot-twist. You needed to follow the extra work of Shenmue to get the OMG effect. Brilliant!

More seriously, I agree her reveal made no sense despite being blown away at the moment. I had the luck to meet her as an interactive NPC at the Cafe so it nicely boosted my naivety.
 
I'll start with saying I am relatively forgiving with the story being a bit (IMO) underbaked given the circumstances. I've mentioned a few times that I'd guess the reason the story turned out how it did is one part due to budget and another due to planning, but that's not the point of this thread and I'll leave it at that.

I actually don't mind if S3 was never intended to push the main story forward very much, but with the story we had, so many plot reveals between point A to point B were underdeveloped and odd. If everything that was in Shenmue 3 was properly fleshed out and well executed, I would be absolutely happy with the story overall. The first interactions with new characters were too brief, it feels like almost every cutscene was truncated in some way, and there was this really weird lack of urgency in a few moments ("gotta go stop the thugs that I know are up that path right now, but oh wait, I guess I'll play hide and seek!" and "The thugs took a hostage and are staying put in this house for some reason for days on end! I'll let them chill there for a few days and save the kid at my convenience since they'll just stay at that same location 24/7").

I would also agree with @iknifaugood that there's a bit of a disconnect between how the idea of training is implemented in the story, especially compared to Shenmue 2. In Shenmue 2, you're being taught martial arts philosophy and ethics, discipline, and yes, some new moves like in Shenmue 3. But the difference in Shenmue 3 is the act of "learning" those moves is functionally there to just gate the story. There's not really the sense that Ryo is learning things like any martial artist of true virtue should know (like the wude).

I do think that everything that was there COULD have been interesting with better execution and a bit more development. Some of the ideas were there, like coming across the old training grounds of your father, learning more about the phoenix mirror from the local yokels, being trained in this ancient rural martial arts focused town, Li Feng actually being Niao Sun and then double crossing Lan Di and essentially causing a rift between the Chiyoumen. There's part of me that would have really enjoyed if Bailu village taught Ryo to relax and have patience, and have some more time to reflect on his life and choices up to this point.

While we didn't learn too much directly about Shenhua, I still would say that the chats with her contributed positively to the overall story. There are also a few small and easily missable lines of dialog she had, (which will be paraphrased and butchered going from here) like when she mentioned she feels like she has the memories of many different generations of people, and that the Shenmue Tree's flowers are in bloom but will die out soon. I think this supports some of the theories that Shenhua is reincarnated. I'm hoping that during another playthrough I can find a few more of these small moments.

Overall, it is a bit frustrating because there's not really a way you can have a do over of the story. I'm just hoping then can make some big improvements for Shenmue 4.
 
As soon as Ryo noticed her on the boat, I assumed that chick was Niao Sun in disguise 🤷‍♂️

We knew Niao Sun was gonna be in this game, and we hadn't met her halfway through the story, and there's no reason for the camera to point at Li Feng like that. When Ryo and Ren notice her in the Red Snakes hideout and then just walk way when she's being so bleedingly obviously ominous, I facepalmed. I know Ryo isn't the smartest tool in the shed, but come on :grinning:

I'm usually absolutely terrible at seeing twists etc. but I thought this one was handled incredibly clumsily.
 
Amir said:
We knew Niao Sun was gonna be in this game, and we hadn't met her halfway through the story, and there's no reason for the camera to point at Li Feng like that. When Ryo and Ren notice her in the Red Snakes hideout and then just walk way when she's being so bleedingly obviously ominous, I facepalmed. I know Ryo isn't the smartest tool in the shed, but come on :grinning:
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Ryo didn't even know she existed at this point and the only encounters with her were shown as she's, not a, "big player," in Niaowu, but that she's familiar with everyone and knows her way around.

In the story, Ryo has 0 reason to suspect her and he hasn't seen her be anything remotely, "evil," until that point in the shed.

You're coming from hindsight, as you're a fan and you know the scoop, but in the scope of the story, it makes complete and total sense.

This is why I've been so up in arms over everyone freaking out; we all know the story and how things play out, but the characters in-game don't; we're armed with hindsight and expectations and that's why people are, "disappointed," when the story itself isn't actually bad.

Remove yourself and your feelings from the plot and then you won't see it in the same light.,
 
Truck_1_0_1_ said:
Ryo didn't even know she existed at this point and the only encounters with her were shown as she's, not a, "big player," in Niaowu, but that she's familiar with everyone and knows her way around.

In the story, Ryo has 0 reason to suspect her and he hasn't seen her be anything remotely, "evil," until that point in the shed.

You're coming from hindsight, as you're a fan and you know the scoop, but in the scope of the story, it makes complete and total sense.

This is why I've been so up in arms over everyone freaking out; we all know the story and how things play out, but the characters in-game don't; we're armed with hindsight and expectations and that's why people are, "disappointed," when the story itself isn't actually bad.

Remove yourself and your feelings from the plot and then you won't see it in the same light.,
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That still doesn't explain why Ryo remarks upon her at all on the boat. Why does he give special attention to her? Because of her looks? The fact that she disappears from the main narrative until appearing in the Red Snakes hideout as well makes it all the more conspicuous. Having her tag along as a friend and/or interacting with her would have had a greater effect. We know she speaks with Shenhua, and we know with the Character Perspective System we serve supposed to play as Shenhua; perhaps this is where the interaction with Li Feng would have appeared (besides her sitting down in a cafe)?
 
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