Worried about Free Battle System

hazuki00 said:
And above all...I hope they don't include ever again first person fighting mode, horrendous.
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They didn't. The only time this happens outside of a glitch or bug is at Beverly Hills Wharf in 2 and that was only due to the camera not working well in tight places.
 
orient said:
The main issues with the combat in the first game are:

A) there simply isn't enough of it to make training feel worthwhile
B) training up moves isn't required and is only rewarded in one fight (Chai arcade)
C) training mostly amounts to repeating combos in an empty park without an opponent -- this isn't how improving your sparring techniques work in real life and is probably the biggest missed opportunity in the first game. They should've had sparring partners for Ryo in Dobuita and the harbour

In Shenmue II the camera troubles become more prominent, perhaps due to an increase in enemies, confined spaces etc. and the inclusion of Command QTEs in some fights feels cheap and frustrating for the most part.

Straight away, there are a bunch of things they could improve upon in Shenmue III, but based on that single combat screenshot, one thing I don't think we'll be getting is traditional fighting game combos. If that screenshot is any indication of the general camera positioning (and it may not, but if it is...) then direction-based combos will feel terrible from behind-the-shoulder, just like when Ryo is facing towards/away from the camera in Shenmue I & II. They're going to create a style that feels condusive to an analogue stick, not a D-pad, which means something that works better in 3D.
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I won't debate you on 3 since we have so little information or the inherent flaws of the combat system in the first two games since it's better at one on one fights than against multiple opponents. The only thing I'll say about 3 is that problem will be rectified by having Ryo attacking multiple opponents. However your first three points about Shenmue I disagree with.

1. There is plenty of combat in the first game especially if you unlock various extra cut scenes. Even if that wasn't the case you can replay the 70 man battle multiple times.

2. Leveling up your moves gives you more powerful moves to use in battle. I'd rather Ryo do a lower crawl cyclone, a handstand kick mud spider, a brutal tiger that doesn't leave Ryo vulnerable, a pit blow that ends with a elbow slam and so on. Mastering your moves not only gives you more powerful moves to utilize but increases your combo options.

3. As a former martial arts practitioner solo training is just as important as sparring with another. In the game much like real life practicing your moves continuously increases your familiarity with them. In reality it's to get the proper form down while in game it's to improve your input speed since Ryo has the perfect form already. The sparring with Fukuara and Jianmin is to apply what you've learned much like real life sparring.
 
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Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
I won't debate you on 3 since we have so little information or the inherent flaws of the combat system in the first two games since it's better at one on one fights than against multiple opponents. The only thing I'll say about 3 is that problem will be rectified by having Ryo attacking multiple opponents. However your first three points about Shenmue I disagree with.

1. There is plenty of combat in the first game especially if unlock various extra cut scenes. Even if that wasn't the case you can replay the 70 man battle multiple times.

2. Leveling up your moves gives you more powerful moves to use in battle. I'd rather Ryo do a lower crawl cyclone, a handstand kick mud spider, a brutal tiger that doesn't leave Ryo vulnerable, a pit blow that ends with a elbow slam and so on. Mastering your moves not only gives more powerful moves to utilize but increases your combo options.

3. As a former martial arts practitioner solo training is just as important as sparring with another. In the game much like real life practicing your moves continuously increases your familiarity with them. In reality it's to get the proper form down while in game it's to improve your input speed since Ryo has the perfect form already. The sparring with Fukuara and Jianmin is to apply what you've learned much like real life sparring.
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1. I'd agree with @orient to a point. However once you get into disc 3 you get much more combat and the 70 man battle is the icing on the cake before you beat down chai.

2. I'm a stickler for Ryo using the advanced form of the moves so I will happily train them. It does make a difference, especially if you have your basic moves trained up as you can quickly wipe out weaker enemies which in the 70 man battle is vital to getting a quick time and not getting bogged down.
 
orient said:
the inclusion of Command QTEs in some fights feels cheap and frustrating for the most part.
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I agree with everything you said in your post except this. I love the QTEs in the fights. They were always totally unexpected my first time playing and fun to overcome and eventually master. I grin ear to ear when I fail the first one or two attempt to dodge Izumi's attack and then start using her attack against her as I wisen up... it's just another thing that makes this series so immersive to me...
 
Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
1. There is plenty of combat in the first game especially if you unlock various extra cut scenes. Even if that wasn't the case you can replay the 70 man battle multiple times.
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Off the top of my head I can think of about 10 free battles in the entire game. That isn't very many for a 20-30 hour game even if I'm forgetting one or two.

Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
2. Leveling up your moves gives you more powerful moves to use in battle. I'd rather Ryo do a lower crawl cyclone, a handstand kick mud spider, a brutal tiger that doesn't leave Ryo vulnerable, a pit blow that ends with a elbow slam and so on. Mastering your moves not only gives you more powerful moves to utilize but increases your combo options.
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My point is, why put in all the time and effort to level up your moves when there is little reward for doing so?

Imagine if there was a secret fight club at the harbour, and if you worked your way up through the ranks and beat the champion you got an awesome cutscene with Goro cheering you on at the end, and maybe even a unique capsule toy. That's the sort of thing a game with an in-depth fighting system needs.

I'm just saying, there are things that Shenmue III can learn from.

Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
3. As a former martial arts practitioner solo training is just as important as sparring with another. In the game much like real life practicing your moves continuously increases your familiarity with them. In reality it's to get the proper form down while in game it's to improve your input speed since Ryo has the perfect form already. The sparring with Fukuara and Jianmin is to apply what you've learned much like real life sparring.
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Solo training is a big part of martial arts. I've been training in karate for 5 years, which isn't long, but it's long enough to know a little bit. I don't really want to derail the thread by going into martial arts theory. My main point is, gameplay-wise, practicing moves is boring compared to sparring an opponent, and there should've been more sparring partners. Again, just something they can learn from in my opinion.
 
I quite like the QTEs in fights too. It's another layer of challenge keeps you on your toes.

Super satisfying when you pull them off also.
 
Jibby said:
Super satisfying when you pull them off also.
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Shenmue is one of the few games that does QTEs right in this regard. They're actually challenging and make sense for the most part as far as the inputs. Most modern games just throw random buttons at the screen and it's more like padding than part of the gameplay, but Shenmue managed to make QTEs feel natural and satisfying...
 
I don't want to see that first-person crap we had to endure in S2, that's for sure. No idea what the decision was behind all that.

Suddenly, Left/Right input becomes Up. No thanks.
 
Clint said:
I don't want to see that first-person crap we had to endure in S2, that's for sure. No idea what the decision was behind all that.

Suddenly, Left/Right input becomes Up. No thanks.
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I always thought it was because the camera wouldn't work in those tight areas

Agreed though it was annoying
 
Jibby said:
I quite like the QTEs in fights too. It's another layer of challenge keeps you on your toes.
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I have no problem with QTEs in fights, as long as failing them isn't an instant loss/restart, which is just bad game design. It's Command QTEs specifically that I just don't think are well executed in Shenmue II. The concept of a multi-button QTE is fine, but the timing is too ambiguous. I mentioned previously, a circular bar or something that fills around the button to indicate how long you have to press each one -- that would improve things greatly.

I don't know if I think challenging QTEs are really the way forward, though. Most people do not like demanding QTEs. It's one of the biggest complaints I've seen with the re-releases. I think there are better ways to increase the difficulty over super quick QTEs.
 
Clint said:
I don't want to see that first-person crap we had to endure in S2, that's for sure. No idea what the decision was behind all that.

Suddenly, Left/Right input becomes Up. No thanks.
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I didn't mind the control changing with the camera, I actually find it kinda interesting in yellow head building when I have to do this often in tight spaces... but yeah it was dumb to force it like that all the time at the wharf...
 
Aside fom both Chai fights, pretty much any harbour fights with the two guys who kick Mark's lunch off the dock make training very worth while. Also, certain QTE might be different if the moves are levelled. Training matters in the first game, especially when transferring save over...

Even the other fights without those two aforementioned Mad Angel gangsters, if moves are advanced, they're so much more satisfyingly efficient. Only reason they aren't really required to do is so casual players wouldn't be comepletely turned off and mkae the game too difficult.

Also... first person was for a very short amount of time for extremely weak opponents whom you could sneak past if you try well enough... Wouldn't say we had to "endure" haha. Bit melodramatic, eh? Espcially when you should be training in multiple directions anyway. Oh, wait, then the one eyed man... shit, my bad. Sucha chore to endure haha

As far as CQTEs. One of the major reasons i absolutely adore Shenmue is it transcends games in a way; meaning, if you listen to Iwao and Xuiying or Jianmin about keeping your mind polished and clear and focused--relaxed, not tense--all those CQTEs come with ease. You literally need a bit of Kung Fu to play Shenmue the best.
 
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I think the training is important from a self satisfaction point of view but really playing through fights fully leveled vs barely leveled doesn't make a HUGE difference, just slightly harder honestly... It's more of a personal satisfaction thing of being efficient as well as carrying progress over...
 
It is my thought that daily move training in the park or parking lot aids more to Ryo's development and the story as a whole. I think there needed to be more sparring partners for more conducive gameplay. Not arguing that move training in the park should be removed, I just however, think that just because something is realistic dose not mean it has to be the end all. Shenmue has always been decent at balancing realism and fun, we don't want a literal walking simulator like Life Is Strange, no it has to be fun.
 
xatruio said:
As far as CQTEs. One of the major reasons i absolutely adore Shenmue is it transcends games in a way; meaning, if you listen to Iwao and Xuiying or Jianmin about keeping your mind polished and clear and focused--relaxed, not tense--all those CQTEs come with ease. You literally need a bit of Kung Fu to play Shenmue the best.
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In theory...yes. In practice...you will probably fail and then try to remember the button combination so you have a better chance of pulling it off next time because the window of time is so small. That's how a lot of them went for me my first time through (and judging by streams, a lot of other people).
 
orient said:
In theory...yes. In practice...you will probably fail and then try to remember the button combination so you have a better chance of pulling it off next time because the window of time is so small. That's how a lot of them went for me my first time through (and judging by streams, a lot of other people).
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Well, no, not in theory--in practice. Where as I only fail if im drunk or just spaced out not paying attention haha.
 
I highly doubt you nailed every CQTE your first time through ;-)

CQTEs are awesome, until you fail, then the illusion of being a zen martial artist is broken and you just have to repeat it.

Both games actually do a really good job of allowing you to miss a few button prompts and still succeed in regular QTEs, or even fail completely and have the game progress anyway. This is how it should be.

It all comes back to difficulty. I don't think hard QTEs are good game design because QTEs are meant to make you feel like a badass, not a fumbling idiot. This is why games don't have hard QTEs anymore and why newcomers are surprised (and annoyed) by the difficulty of Shenmue's QTEs.

I just want Shenmue III to be a great game that finds success in today's market, and I don't think hard QTEs are going to help it.
 
Upon first play I didn't have the zen to not fail the Lucky Plaza bldg. Had my revelation during Yellow Head canopy kicks. Those kicked my ass for the loongest time for awhile and I even swore the game off for a few hours in a fit of teen rage hahaha.

Don Niu counter elbow assault gave me one or two fails because it was the biggest challenge to not be tense and anxious as hell; with him barrelling down at you like he does--yikes haha. Nevertheless, even on my first play over 15 years ago I eventually realized i just needed to relax the fuck down haha. Rather than be over concerned and trying too hard. Unfortunate the CQTEs are given such disdain, which I definitely see being a popular opinion.

Although, I never remember any besides the rooftop jump and Rocky Area cliff jump because theyre so blatantly obvious. So, in that way, my nerdy zen theory still helps because i simply don't know what to expect, haha

Funny how newcomers/younger generation feel they're difficult. If anything, I feel original Shenmue QTE are too easy for too much of the game. Understandably, they're dumbed down for the first disc, but i feel like mostly disc 3 had any tougher ones. Also don't like how A/B are overused, X rarely and Y never are prompted. Heartbeats was somewhat lengthy, but easy. Off top of mind, first good one was the Jimmy chase.
 
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