Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[code l name]

Payton literally says in the interview, "...[a revolutionary new type of game] is not what fans want. They want to see the story continue".

I would be really curious what that original pitch entailed. I’m curious if that involves character perspective and warring factions elements previously discussed or something else entirely. I for one am glad they stuck to the core Shenmue elements but obviously happy for further refinement and enhancements.

Due to the way things panned out, not much work at all was done on content post-Shenmue II. So basically that infamous Kikizo article was a load of .

That brings back bad memories. It was clear from the fallout after the article it was bunk but I guess Adam never outright confronted this fact.

 

[orient]

Some stuff from the Patreon-only Q&A session at the end, that I mostly forgot about:

• They knew while working on II that they wouldn't be going straight onto III. III depended on the sales of II
• They built II on Dreamcast with Microsoft's platform in mind (they specifically say Windows, but I don't think they mean Windows CE) which made porting II to Xbox a lot easier than porting I. That's why the original was just a movie on Xbox
• Yu Suzuki was part of a small group who helped design the Dreamcast hardware, and his suggestions of keeping discrete components for CPU, GPU and sound (to avoid bottlenecking the CPU) had a huge positive impact on Shenmue
• Before GDROM, Yu asked his boss about putting Shenmue on 50 CDs...once they moved to GDROM he asked his boss about putting it on 30 GDROMs...that's when they compressed the shit out of the audio
• Shenmue 1 was really hard to finish due to the sheer amount of bugs. The game was just so large, and it seems the QA team couldn't actually skip time whenever they wanted, or cutscenes. If they wanted to test from beginning to end it could take the team 3 days to do it
• They cheaped out on the live orchestra at the game's launch event in Yokohama, and Yu was cringing at mistakes but no one else seemed to notice
• The main criticism of the first game that stuck with Yu all these years is the fact that your Father's just been murdered but you can go to the convenience store, do a bunch of other menial activities that don't contribute to the overall story. He says that, nowadays, most games are like this and no one complains

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

• The main criticism of the first game that stuck with Yu all these years is the fact that your Father's just been murdered but you can go to the convenience store, do a bunch of other menial activities that don't contribute to the overall story. He says that, nowadays, most games are like this and no one complains

100% visionary game.

 

[SMDzero]

Some stuff from the Patreon-only Q&A session at the end, that I mostly forgot about:

• The main criticism of the first game that stuck with Yu all these years is the fact that your Father's just been murdered but you can go to the convenience store, do a bunch of other menial activities that don't contribute to the overall story. He says that, nowadays, most games are like this and no one complains

At least Ryo had a few days to mourn immediately after his father's death.

So Peyton got close to yelling at Suzuki because he told him he "didn't understand" what fans wanted in S3?

Why would he do something like that?

 

[orient]

So Peyton got close to yelling at Suzuki because he told him he "didn't understand" what fans wanted in S3?

Why would he do something like that?

Because passionate people sometimes have heated discussions about things they're passionate about...does this really need a justification?

He says right afterwards that he has a strong friendship with Yu. He knows him personally, unlike me or you. You really don't need to worry about Yu being bullied, or disrespected, or whatever it is you're worried about.

 

[spud1897]

So there we have it. Some heated discussions, not yelling in Yu's face, or forcing him to do anything. I did know that Ryan is a good personal friend of Yu Suzuki and they stay in touch.

So in short to say he's the reason Shenmue III wasn't what some wanted is rubbish, seems he wanted it as close to the others as possible.

So in short end the hyperbolic crap

@orient Thanks for digging this up.

 

[SMDzero]

Because passionate people sometimes have heated discussions about things they're passionate about...does this really need a justification?

He says right afterwards that he has a strong friendship with Yu. He knows him personally, unlike me or you. You really don't need to worry about Yu being bullied, or disrespected, or whatever it is you're worried about.

It just seems odd to strongly challenge Yu Suzuki on what Shenmue 3 should have been. I would have loved to know exactly what they were debating.

Ah well.

Does anyone have the link to the Patreon part of the Peyton interview.. or was that still only for Patreon donators?

 

[Yokosuka]

The heated discussion only meant a constructive debate where a lot of arguments and counter-arguments could be heard from both sides around the table since you can have 100 different Shenmue 3 according the artistic direction you choose, like Shenmue 2 could have been focused on NPC autonomy if Suzuki minded the pre-production differently then.
"Heated" was to be taken for the excitement meaning, not anger.
Many thanks Orient for the exhaustive transcription.

 

[ShenSun]

Friends, family, colleagues, etc all have disagreements. Sometimes it can get heated. It's apart of life and sometimes its needed. Other times its not.

I've had them. You've had them. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I know its 2020, and its apparently "cool" on the internet to throw cr@p at someone with no proof, and to blow it out of proportion in a hyperbolic way. But lets not forget, ryan was a key component in making Shenmue 3 a reality. For that, i take my hat off to him.

I listened to the podcast again and it just sounds like two men having a grown up conversation. Agreements, disagreements, constructive debate, helping each other out, etc. Sounds like a good friendship to me.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

So in short to say he's the reason Shenmue III wasn't what some wanted is rubbish, seems he wanted it as close to the others as possible.

So in short end the hyperbolic crap

@orient Thanks for digging this up.

The question here is:

Is there a way to make a game that makes happy to the 100% of the people? If he kept it too classic, it would receive bullshit from new people. If he kept it too casual, from hardcore fans that doesn't touch a game since 2004. Just look at the dojo, people even complaining because you need to get money (hello? it's called immersion?!?!) picking flowers (you hated that system in Skyrim right?!?!?!) and trashing because there is a round circle in the flowers to help you see them (so we don't want quality of life with that now?!)

The community it's toxic and retard. If you actually do a good game (let's call, Assassins Creed Oddysey) the community starts trashing saying "uugghhh, it's the same graphics that AC Originsss (did you complain when they did that with 2, BH and Rev? No you didn't, right?) omg Ubisoft are so lazy, this is not a game, this is a DLC!! (a DLC of more than 100 hours of gameplay yeah kid go to sleep, it's late). So why are we surprise of this? The fact that some people waited almost 20 years doesn't make them better at all. And the same it's happening with Half life 3, that's why Valve isn't gonna make it unless they REALLY need to (Epic Store, Valorant > Counter Strike, etc). Just imagine the comments if they release it tomorrow. "What? 13 years for this?" "So that's it?" "This looks like a 2009 game" "If you gonna do this, don't do anything and let's remember the myth of Half Life 2". This comments sounds familiar? It should. It. Fucking. Should.

 

[iknifaugood]

Shenmue 1 was really hard to finish due to the sheer amount of bugs. The game was just so large, and it seems the QA team couldn't actually skip time whenever they wanted, or cutscenes. If they wanted to test from beginning to end it could take the team 3 days to do it

Technically speaking QA best practices is to do just that; you have to start the game from the beginning, especially close to release, because you have to replicate the end user experience exactly. Obviously there should be dev tools in place to skip to any point in the game--I'd be shocked if that wasn't available in S1 (imagine if there was a bug during the 70 man battle??).

The main criticism of the first game that stuck with Yu all these years is the fact that your Father's just been murdered but you can go to the convenience store, do a bunch of other menial activities that don't contribute to the overall story. He says that, nowadays, most games are like this and no one complains

I don't really see how this is true at all. Most games start with a fast paced action hook to draw the player in and set the story up (like, you know, Shenmue 2), this was common practice even at the time, which is probably why it was a criticism of S1 and is still a criticism of S3. It's possible that something is getting lost in translation and he's talking more specifically about having the option to do menial activities, but in S1 (and S3), even if you follow just the story you have to do menial activities, which is where I think the criticism lies.

Just look at the dojo, people even complaining because you need to get money (hello? it's called immersion?!?!)

I found it completely immersion breaking that a remote village, in 1987, where people need to make a 2 day journey for supplies, would have a $2000 bottle of wine for sale; to say nothing of the fact that the game would require me to grind up that much money when you make like $70 per job. Let's stop defending this nonsense unless you actually want more of this in the series moving forward. In S2, when I was asked to make $500 to meet Ren and then he stole that money from me, I did not consider that to be a pillar of the Shenmue formula going forward.

picking flowers (you hated that system in Skyrim right?!?!?!)

Did someone actually complain about this or are you making this up? Because tons of beloved games let you pick flowers (Witcher, BotW, Skyrim etc.).

trashing because there is a round circle in the flowers to help you see them (so we don't want quality of life with that now?!)

Right, because the quality of life improvement we were all begging for was a giant circle indicating what's interactive in a game where every drawer has exactly one interactive item in it and there's only ever one plant on the screen at a time. Never mind that it's one of the ugliest parts of an already very ugly UI.

The community it's toxic and retard. If you actually do a good game (let's call, Assassins Creed Oddysey) the community starts trashing saying "uugghhh, it's the same graphics that AC Originsss (did you complain when they did that with 2, BH and Rev? No you didn't, right?) omg Ubisoft are so lazy, this is not a game, this is a DLC!! (a DLC of more than 100 hours of gameplay yeah kid go to sleep, it's late). So why are we surprise of this? The fact that some people waited almost 20 years doesn't make them better at all. And the same it's happening with Half life 3, that's why Valve isn't gonna make it unless they REALLY need to (Epic Store, Valorant > Counter Strike, etc). Just imagine the comments if they release it tomorrow. "What? 13 years for this?" "So that's it?" "This looks like a 2009 game" "If you gonna do this, don't do anything and let's remember the myth of Half Life 2". This comments sounds familiar? It should. It. Fucking. Should.

Complaining about people complaining makes the environment more toxic, not less. If you disagree with the complaints, then explain why you disagree; don't poison the well by inventing complaints (seriously, no one has ever said S3 is bad because you can pick flowers) and then using that to dismiss valid criticism. People hold the Half-Life games in really high regard so if Valve releases HL3 and it's as half baked as S3 then they will rightly be torn up and down the internet for it. The reason they're not making it is because they only want to do it when they have another breakthrough mechanic like the gravity gun specifically because they understand how high the stakes are (and because they have just so, so much money that they don't actually need to make it).

 

[~ ひかり ~]

I respect different opinions i just don't understand that some people are complaining about everything as if Shenmue III is the worst game of all time.

Some people waited 18 years to play this game but now they complain about everything, sure people can dislike a game but complain about every little thing i just don't get it, saying bad things about Yu Suzuki i just don't get it, searching for culprits about why Shenmue III is the way it is i really don't get it, compare Shenmue III to AAA games and things like that i really don't get it, saying Shenmue III has only 20 minutes of story i just don't get it.

Like many here i wanted more story in Shenmue III but i don't think Shenmue III have only 20 minutes of story, meeting new characters is not a part of the story? sure i wanted more screen time for them, i wanted to see more about Shiling and other characters but meeting this characters is a part of the story in my opinion.

The flashbacks about the mirrors is not a part of the story? the conversations with Shenhua is not a part of the story? Ryo and Shenhua are now more closer. Training with master Sun and learning a new move is not a part of the story? Ryo
trainning with Grandmaster Bei is not a part of the Story?

Ryo learning more things about what his father did is not a part of the story? for me it is because for me the Shenmue story is about Ryo's Journey, Ryo growing up as a martial artist and as a human being, is about the people he meet and what he learns from them, and i really think that important things will happen in Shenmue 4 and 5.

Some people in the Shenmue community are so toxic that when i said my opinion about the game one person reacted with a angry face in my comment, i didn't offend anyone, this was on a Facebook group, i saw many toxic things so i decided to left the group, i prefer to stay here. I'm not asking for people to like Shenmue III, i'm not asking for people to agree with me, all i'm saying is that i don't get it and i don't agree complaining about everything about Shenmue III.

I gave 8.5 out of 10 for Shenmue III, i saw good things in the game and i saw bad things but i will not complain about every little thing, i said this other times and i will say again, i respect Yu Suzuki and i am really grateful that Shenmue III exists.

 

[GhostTrick]

Technically speaking QA best practices is to do just that; you have to start the game from the beginning, especially close to release, because you have to replicate the end user experience exactly. Obviously there should be dev tools in place to skip to any point in the game--I'd be shocked if that wasn't available in S1 (imagine if there was a bug during the 70 man battle??).


I don't really see how this is true at all. Most games start with a fast paced action hook to draw the player in and set the story up (like, you know, Shenmue 2), this was common practice even at the time, which is probably why it was a criticism of S1 and is still a criticism of S3. It's possible that something is getting lost in translation and he's talking more specifically about having the option to do menial activities, but in S1 (and S3), even if you follow just the story you have to do menial activities, which is where I think the criticism lies.


I found it completely immersion breaking that a remote village, in 1987, where people need to make a 2 day journey for supplies, would have a $2000 bottle of wine for sale; to say nothing of the fact that the game would require me to grind up that much money when you make like $70 per job. Let's stop defending this nonsense unless you actually want more of this in the series moving forward. In S2, when I was asked to make $500 to meet Ren and then he stole that money from me, I did not consider that to be a pillar of the Shenmue formula going forward.


Did someone actually complain about this or are you making this up? Because tons of beloved games let you pick flowers (Witcher, BotW, Skyrim etc.).


Right, because the quality of life improvement we were all begging for was a giant circle indicating what's interactive in a game where every drawer has exactly one interactive item in it and there's only ever one plant on the screen at a time. Never mind that it's one of the ugliest parts of an already very ugly UI.


Complaining about people complaining makes the environment more toxic, not less. If you disagree with the complaints, then explain why you disagree; don't poison the well by inventing complaints (seriously, no one has ever said S3 is bad because you can pick flowers) and then using that to dismiss valid criticism. People hold the Half-Life games in really high regard so if Valve releases HL3 and it's as half baked as S3 then they will rightly be torn up and down the internet for it. The reason they're not making it is because they only want to do it when they have another breakthrough mechanic like the gravity gun specifically because they understand how high the stakes are (and because they have just so, so much money that they don't actually need to make it).

It's actually a convenient excuse for some people to say that "there never was any winning situation here, it was always going to be divisive".
Yet, I see Half Life Alyx getting shitload of high scores. I see FFVII Remake getting a shitload of high scores.

Sure, Shenmue III had budget constraints as opposed to those two games. But to say that no matter what, Shenmue III was doomed is just plenty wrong. The game is what it is and we cant change it for better or worse. But in the end, it landed where it is now. But it's not because "you cant make everyone happy". It's just because it wasn't good. It wasn't bad either mind you. But some people just wont accept that it wasn't a situation that was going to happen "regardless of quality".

 

[Sonoshee]

I found it completely immersion breaking that a remote village, in 1987, where people need to make a 2 day journey for supplies, would have a $2000 bottle of wine for sale; to say nothing of the fact that the game would require me to grind up that much money when you make like $70 per job. Let's stop defending this nonsense unless you actually want more of this in the series moving forward. In S2, when I was asked to make $500 to meet Ren and then he stole that money from me, I did not consider that to be a pillar of the Shenmue formula going forward.

Pretty sure the journey out of Bailu was for supplies like medicine.
Having a $2k bottle of wine in the village doesn't change that

 

[spud1897]

Without this thread turning into another let's bash Shenmue III topic from the same people, it's always easier to see the negative side of things with anything in life. Now I'm not saying the criticisms with 3 are unjustified but people will care to repeat the same points time after time after time. That's what becomes wearing with this. The point has been made, a lot, let's move the discussion forward.

It's actually a convenient excuse for some people to say that "there never was any winning situation here, it was always going to be divisive".
Yet, I see Half Life Alyx getting shitload of high scores. I see FFVII Remake getting a shitload of high scores.

Sure, Shenmue III had budget constraints as opposed to those two games. But to say that no matter what, Shenmue III was doomed is just plenty wrong. The game is what it is and we cant change it for better or worse. But in the end, it landed where it is now. But it's not because "you cant make everyone happy". It's just because it wasn't good. It wasn't bad either mind you. But some people just wont accept that it wasn't a situation that was going to happen "regardless of quality".

I've not played HL Alyx but it looks fun. FFVII Remake I'd never gotten into the series but it's well presented. I do think the internet has a particular soft spot for FF as a series. However that doesn't get away from the fact, from the demo I sampled, the game is well put together and looks great/has a certain quality. I can't say more because I've not played it and probably won't.

I think in the proper hardcore fan-base (e.g here and the 500k) they were on a hiding to nothing whatever they did because these elements who have been on this 18 year journey have bigged this up to such a point there was always going to be a layer of disappointment, and yes that is "regardless of quality". As I keep saying wider of here, oddly on twitter, the game has been generally well received by fans to such a point Embracer even commented on it themselves.

And to say it wasn't good is subjective in the persons eye. Of course reviews are mixed (68/69 on Metacritic, with our without weighting) but a game rounded up to a 7 is much nearer good than not.

Also some people don't have to accept a certain point of view, they have their reasons and as long as those can be explained we have the right to agree/disagree and not have an alternative shoved down someone's throat because you (or anyone else) doesn't agree with it. That's not how things work.

 

[ShenSun]

Personally, i really like Shenmue 3. It has has many flaws, but i dig it. Some don't like it at all and that's cool aswell. I actually agree with alot of their criticisms, but it didn't really hinder my experience for the game, but that's just me. Everyone is different.

There is a growing trend and concern here though. It seems there are certain people who constantly derail threads into hyperbolic nonsense, or who have to argue ferociously with anyone who has an opposing viewpoint. When called out on such behavior, you see the victim card being played. "I'm being silenced or everyone is against me" etc.

That or they 10x their emotional outbursts when someone calls them out. It's definitely something we'll be taking note of going forward, especially if the same people keep doing it. There is a thread for every type of Shenmue 3 topic on the dojo, so post in the respected threads and don't derail other threads.

Express whatever views you want, good, bad, neutral. But just do it in a civil, respectful and levelheaded manner and not in a hyperbolic way. I've said it before and I'll happily say it again. This forum will never, ever be a drama, hyperbolic, outrage forum where we attack or smear people or try to implement mob mentality. I think we're all too old for that nonsense. Its also toxic and poisonous towards your fellow man/woman and ruins the experience for everyone.

Thankfully, the vast majority of people on this forum are awesome, so its not a massive issues, but its definitely worth mentioning.

Stay cool.

 

[GhostTrick]

Without this thread turning into another let's bash Shenmue III topic from the same people, it's always easier to see the negative side of things with anything in life. Now I'm not saying the criticisms with 3 are unjustified but people will care to repeat the same points time after time after time. That's what becomes wearing with this. The point has been made, a lot, let's move the discussion forward.



I've not played HL Alyx but it looks fun. FFVII Remake I'd never gotten into the series but it's well presented. I do think the internet has a particular soft spot for FF as a series. However that doesn't get away from the fact, from the demo I sampled, the game is well put together and looks great/has a certain quality. I can't say more because I've not played it and probably won't.

I think in the proper hardcore fan-base (e.g here and the 500k) they were on a hiding to nothing whatever they did because these elements who have been on this 18 year journey have bigged this up to such a point there was always going to be a layer of disappointment, and yes that is "regardless of quality". As I keep saying wider of here, oddly on twitter, the game has been generally well received by fans to such a point Embracer even commented on it themselves.

And to say it wasn't good is subjective in the persons eye. Of course reviews are mixed (68/69 on Metacritic, with our without weighting) but a game rounded up to a 7 is much nearer good than not.

Also some people don't have to accept a certain point of view, they have their reasons and as long as those can be explained we have the right to agree/disagree and not have an alternative shoved down someone's throat because you (or anyone else) doesn't agree with it. That's not how things work.

I mean yeah, tastes are subjective. You can hate a game that is vastly praised and love a game that wasn't. But in Shenmue III's case, we're not talking about a game that was vastly praised. It's a game that was seen as a flawed game with some qualities. For that reason, I dont think saying "people were always going to be disappointed" is fair. Sure, there are some people that could have had a few nitpicks even if the game scored a 90+. But we're not in that case. Shenmue III is in the range in which criticism isn't craziness from "toxic and retard people" who are nitpicking. It's not a divisive game in spite of reviewing very well, there's a root to said criticism, it didn't appear out of thin air.

 

[GhostTrick]

Personally, i really like Shenmue 3. It has has many flaws, but i dig it. Some don't like it at all and that's cool aswell. I actually agree with alot of their criticisms, but it didn't really hinder my experience for the game, but that's just me. Everyone is different.

There is a growing trend and concern here though. It seems there are certain people who constantly derail threads into hyperbolic nonsense, or who have to argue ferociously with anyone who has an opposing viewpoint. When called out on such behavior, you see the victim card being played. "I'm being silenced or everyone is against me" etc. That or they 10x their emotional outbursts when someone calls them out. It's definitely something we'll be taking note of going forward, especially if the same people keep doing it. There is a thread for every type of Shenmue 3 topic on the dojo, so post in the respected threads and don't derail other threads.

Express whatever views you want, good, bad, neutral. But just do it in a civil, respectful and levelheaded manner and not in a hyperbolic way. I've said it before and I'll happily say it again. This forum will never, ever be a drama, hyperbolic, outrage forum where we attack or smear people or try to implement mob mentality. I think we're all too old for that nonsense. Its also toxic and poisonous towards your fellow man/woman and ruins the experience for everyone.

Thankfully, the vast majority of people on this forum are awesome, so its not a massive issues, but its definitely worth mentioning.

Stay cool.

Honestly speaking, I see more abusive behaviour from some people loving the game. I have yet to see someone who criticised the game insulting personnally another person who loved the game. In fact, on this very page, I see a post calling said part of the community "toxic and retard".

 

[spud1897]

I mean yeah, tastes are subjective. You can hate a game that is vastly praised and love a game that wasn't. But in Shenmue III's case, we're not talking about a game that was vastly praised. It's a game that was seen as a flawed game with some qualities. For that reason, I dont think saying "people were always going to be disappointed" is fair. Sure, there are some people that could have had a few nitpicks even if the game scored a 90+. But we're not in that case. Shenmue III is in the range in which criticism isn't craziness from "toxic and retard people" who are nitpicking. It's not a divisive game in spite of reviewing very well, there's a root to said criticism, it didn't appear out of thin air.

We need to be very careful in terms of who is toxic in terms of what's being said. I can think of a few users who came in here and literally first post, "Game sucks anyone liking it is an idiot", that's toxic. The room forcriticism is there but in the same breath (in a separate topic) there were some odd nit-picks.

I remember a user moaning about Ryo's mouth not moving when he stops you moving into a locked area. General Impressions Topic, that was it. It's a balance between genuine/fair criticism and stuff that's, quite frankly, a little OTT

 

[iknifaugood]

Pretty sure the journey out of Bailu was for supplies like medicine.
Having a $2k bottle of wine in the village doesn't change that

Without this thread turning into another let's bash Shenmue III topic from the same people, it's always easier to see the negative side of things with anything in life. Now I'm not saying the criticisms with 3 are unjustified but people will care to repeat the same points time after time after time. That's what becomes wearing with this. The point has been made, a lot, let's move the discussion forward.

I have no desire to go over S3's flaws again, but in the interest of S4 being better, excusing things like grinding for money as somehow "immersive" has me really concerned about the future of the series. I have zero desire to be told to buy an absurdly expensive item with no recourse but to grind repetitive minigames ever again and it's fine if you liked it in S3--it exists, there's no changing it--but, seriously, show of hands: if S4 asks you to grind $10,000 before you can enter the Cliff Temple; do you honestly want that? Because it seems like Suzuki thinks you want that.

I think in the proper hardcore fan-base (e.g here and the 500k) they were on a hiding to nothing whatever they did because these elements who have been on this 18 year journey have bigged this up to such a point there was always going to be a layer of disappointment, and yes that is "regardless of quality".

There's an element of truth to this with every fanbase, GMTK just did a good video that relates to it:


Though I must qualify that the flaws the Shenmue fanbase is talking about are far more substantial than something like an unbalanced enemy type.

And to say it wasn't good is subjective in the persons eye. Of course reviews are mixed (68/69 on Metacritic, with our without weighting) but a game rounded up to a 7 is much nearer good than not.

Saying it's good is also subjective. It's worth remembering that game reviews notoriously skew very high compared with movies, it's rare for a major release to see anything lower than a 7 almost regardless of quality (there even used to be a joke about IGN's 7-10 review scale). Put it this way: can you even imagine a world where the latest Final Fantasy or Zelda game earns a Metacritic score in the 60s? People legitimately get fired over things like that.

Also some people don't have to accept a certain point of view, they have their reasons and as long as those can be explained we have the right to agree/disagree and not have an alternative shoved down someone's throat because you (or anyone else) doesn't agree with it. That's not how things work.

Totally true, but since negative backlash is being considered by Suzuki, it's especially worth it for people who love S3 to imagine how that will influence S4. I think it's healthy to have discussions where we try to approach a middle ground.