Random Shenmue IV Thoughts.

Lol. Well, I don't know if I'd go that far, but I do think every penny counts when you're trying to get a series like this made. If they can get the funds to make a fully realized Shenmue and manage to include the English VA, I'm all for it.
 
mjqjazzbar said:
Lol. Well, I don't know if I'd go that far, but I do think every penny counts when you're trying to get a series like this made. If they can get the funds to make a fully realized Shenmue and manage to include the English VA, I'm all for it.
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Cutting english voices isn't going to "save them a lot of money".
If they want to "save budget" there are far better choices like removing QTEs or replacing secondary characters voices with texts.
 
There was a post around here suggesting the English VA likely cost 500K-$1 million. That's a pretty substantial amount of money for a game that supposedly cost $10million to develop. It certainly didn't attract a lot of praise, beyond a handful of fans, for the game. I think it's a net negative, unless the cost is minimal. I'd take text as well.

But with all of that out of the way, I doubt any of these compromises will be made. All of these ideas seem to be against the spirit of what Yu Suzuki wants to achieve.
 
But, english voice acting makes the game more accesible.(Some people don't play games which don't have english voice acting)
Not everyone is a fan of reading subtitles in games.

The main reason voice acting costed that much is due to having like 100 npcs that have voice acting.(Shenmue 1 also wasted a lot of money for that according to Jeremy Blaustin.)
 
Ryo2040 said:
I certainly would play it, but something would be missing without Corey.
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Personally, I would miss nothing. Unpopular opinion, but I don't care much for Corey. The Japanese dub shits all over the English dub in these games and is really the only way I can play anymore. I understand the appeal of the dub -- the same way I understand the appeal of so bad it's good Kung Fu dubs or Godzilla dubs -- but speaking personally? I'd miss nothing if they didn't bother with an English track from here on out.

Same way I don't care about lack of English dubs in Yakuza. There's something about playing Shenmue with the Japanese track that just feels right to me.
 
danielmann861 said:
Personally, I would miss nothing. Unpopular opinion, but I don't care much for Corey. The Japanese dub shits all over the English dub in these games and is really the only way I can play anymore. I understand the appeal of the dub -- the same way I understand the appeal of so bad it's good Kung Fu dubs or Godzilla dubs -- but speaking personally? I'd miss nothing if they didn't bother with an English track from here on out.

Same way I don't care about lack of English dubs in Yakuza. There's something about playing Shenmue with the Japanese track that just feels right to me.
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I'm an oddball when it comes to dubs. I prefer Yakuza with the Japanese dub but Shenmue with the English dub.
 
ShenSun said:
I'm an oddball when it comes to dubs. I prefer Yakuza with the Japanese dub but Shenmue with the English dub.
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The problem for me remains with both lack of direction and stiff translations. I'm not a dub hater by any means. Actually, in some ways, I prefer the Persona 4 English dub over the Japanese dub and would point to that as being a rather well done dub in both translation and direction.

But with Shenmue -- having been studying Japanese for 7 years or so -- it gave me new appreciation for the headaches of translation. The dub and translation is so slavishly faithful that it kind of does point out why going direct from Japanese to English doesn't always work and why translators do need to take certain liberties when localizing. At least in the first game that is to say.

For instance, take the old "Especially since you bought merchandise..." line from the original game. I think Switch wrote about this on his blog but it's a perfect example of a translation that is trying to stay as faithful as possible but also shows why that doesn't always work and can come across as utterly clunky in a different language.

I think that's why I've come to prefer the Japanese dub -- I admit there is a bias here for me having some knowledge of the language under my belt -- but yeah, I don't particularly care for the clunky almost too faithful translation. It's a shortcoming of both the dub and localisation for me.

Yes, I know it has a certain charm...but speaking personally, it actually kind of annoys me now to look at it and think "this could have been done better."

And a part of that falls on Yu's shoulders as Yu really wanted that first game to capture the Japanese feeling and tone of dialog. Well he got that but in the process, it kind of exposes how clunky literal translation can be. So for me, I can't really go back to the English dub anymore.

Especially with the first game. The first game just feels so much better in Japanese to me. Little things like Tom's broken Japanese (or the foreigners broken Japanese in general) just makes so much more sense and is so much more immersive to me. Where as the English dub is trying to be faithful to that, but ultimately comes across as if everyone has borderline brain damage at times whether it intends to or not.

As for the quality of the dub? They did the best with what they had -- actors who had never really acted before -- but again, the Japanese dub just out guns it. There's a bit of direction going on there and the stoic Japanese Ryo stands above stoic English Ryo for me.
 
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I think that having an english dub is actually most useful as a promotional point:
It emphasis the idea of appealing to most, with an accessibility argument.

Of course, for non-english speakers or, in general,
for people that can't connect better with the english dub than with the japanese one,
having more than one dub will not resonate too much.
(In an ideal world, the saga could offer a dub for most language it is distributed from.
But, only US english and japanese might be the best compromise.)


To be honest, I'm not that picky about the english dub itself as a bit of kitsch is fine, at times.
What I hope we have is better localisation for the subtitles, for each language.
(with more care about context and, possibly taking liberties if it helps the quality.)
 
mjqjazzbar said:
There was a post around here suggesting the English VA likely cost 500K-$1 million. That's a pretty substantial amount of money for a game that supposedly cost $10million to develop. It certainly didn't attract a lot of praise, beyond a handful of fans, for the game. I think it's a net negative, unless the cost is minimal. I'd take text as well.

But with all of that out of the way, I doubt any of these compromises will be made. All of these ideas seem to be against the spirit of what Yu Suzuki wants to achieve.
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I recall reading said post at the time and noticing how very flawed the logic in coming to that estimate was.

There’s no way the English dub cost anywhere near this amount. Even if it did, for a game that will sell the vast majority of its copies in the western market, to not have an English dub would be foolish in YSNet’s part. I’d cut the Japanese dub before I cut the English one, even if it is performed to a much higher standard.
 
Dg1995 said:
But, english voice acting makes the game more accesible.(Some people don't play games which don't have english voice acting)
Not everyone is a fan of reading subtitles in games.

The main reason voice acting costed that much is due to having like 100 npcs that have voice acting.(Shenmue 1 also wasted a lot of money for that according to Jeremy Blaustin.)
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Shenmue is a super niche serie. The remaster and III was the last shot for the serie to become mainstream. IV isn't going to do any better.

The people who might skip IV based on no english dub can be counted on one hand.

And honestly speaking, while I know some people love the english dub and Corey, it has nothing to do with good quality but nostalgia and cheesy jank. And that's an issue. I dont see the point in throwing hundreds of thousands in an element that make the game worse in the eyes of the general public. Yakuza 0 had no english dub and it sold a lot more than Shenmue III could ever hope for.
 
Basing the dub on my band/gigging days (we used to pay on average £1000 for 3 days studio time plus £200 for mastering) you can see how easily costs can spiral out of control for a dub. You've got recording, editing and mixing for all main characters plus NPC's. All actors need paying and from what I understand you can cost it at a per line/ per minute on a 1 read through or hire in main actors at a per hour cost.

This studio in the UK costs £200 ph for an actor and then £60ph for the director/recording/editing per hour https://www.voquent.com/rates/#example

Of course this isn't an exact science as no one knows how much Corey made from it. I'd assume less than the above (Bill Black said they did it cheap) but still relatively costly. He was in the studio for a month. Assume £50 an hour. £400 a day, £2000 a week, £8000 a month, which sounds extortionate. He might have done it for way less but we don't know. My point being is that cost can spiral if you're then paying for the studio, director etc. They could have got some flat rates for some actors, Corey probably would have done it for less as it's Shenmue.

Heres another for reference: https://www.thevoicerealm.com/voice-over-rates.php

This is the studio/firm that did the Shenmue III English dub and localisation.

www.lionbridge.com

Game Localization, Translation and Testing from Lionbridge

Lionbridge’s end-to-end suite of game localization, translation, testing and audio services ensure game developers deliver compelling gaming experiences in any language or culture.
www.lionbridge.com www.lionbridge.com

This is based on nothing but a quick google but I'd be shocked if the dub didn't hit over $200k but I suspect it was way more
 
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Honestly though, if it is feasible for them to carry on with, it doesn't really bother me having a dub either.

This series is long past being embraced by the mainstream. I think it's destined for a niche audience (that being us) so if its feasible for them to get away with and wasn't a hindrance to Shenmue IV being theoretically green lit then I wouldn't have a problem with it either.

I just know for me personally I can't go back to the English dub after hearing the Japanese dub. It's just my preferred way of playing now.
 
spud1897 said:
Basing the dub on my band/gigging days (we used to pay on average £1000 for 3 days studio time plus £200 for mastering) you can see how easily costs can spiral out of control for a dub. You've got recording, editing and mixing for all main characters plus NPC's. All actors need paying and from what I understand you can cost it at a per line/ per minute on a 1 read through or hire in main actors at a per hour cost.

This studio in the UK costs £200 ph for an actor and then £60ph for the director/recording/editing per hour https://www.voquent.com/rates/#example

Of course this isn't an exact science as no one knows how much Corey made from it. I'd assume less than the above (Bill Black said they did it cheap) but still relatively costly. He was in the studio for a month. Assume £50 an hour. £400 a day, £2000 a week, £8000 a month, which sounds extortionate. He might have done it for way less but we don't know. My point being is that cost can spiral if you're then paying for the studio, director etc. They could have got some flat rates for some actors, Corey probably would have done it for less as it's Shenmue.

Heres another for reference: https://www.thevoicerealm.com/voice-over-rates.php

This is the studio/firm that did the Shenmue III English dub and localisation.

www.lionbridge.com

Game Localization, Translation and Testing from Lionbridge

Lionbridge’s end-to-end suite of game localization, translation, testing and audio services ensure game developers deliver compelling gaming experiences in any language or culture.
www.lionbridge.com www.lionbridge.com

This is based on nothing but a quick google but I'd be shocked if the dub didn't hit over $200k but I suspect it was way more
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Even assuming Corey did make £8,000 (which I suspect is a high estimate), he was the lead actor and had considerably more lines than anybody else in the game. Let’s say Briana made the same (again, generous considering she had fewer lines) and we’re at £16,000. I very much doubt they hired union voice actors for the extras and even if they got union actors for the other named characters (Lan Di, Broom Girl, Mr Muscles 1/2, Ren and the 2 masters), their lines probably warranted no more than 1/2 hours studio time at most (about $11,000 dollars assuming each of the actors was paid for 2 hours at $800/hour).

There are obviously some other costs (studio hire, director, technician, etc), but I don’t see these making up the other $150,000+ from your $200,000 estimate; let alone the $950k+ from the upper end of the estimate made in the OP.
 
tomboz said:
Even assuming Corey did make £8,000 (which I suspect is a high estimate), he was the lead actor and had considerably more lines than anybody else in the game. Let’s say Briana made the same (again, generous considering she had fewer lines) and we’re at £16,000. I very much doubt they hired union voice actors for the extras and even if they got union actors for the other named characters (Lan Di, Broom Girl, Mr Muscles 1/2, Ren and the 2 masters), their lines probably warranted no more than 1/2 hours studio time at most (about $11,000 dollars assuming each of the actors was paid for 2 hours at $800/hour).

There are obviously some other costs (studio hire, director, technician, etc), but I don’t see these making up the other $150,000+ from your $200,000 estimate; let alone the $950k+ from the upper end of the estimate made in the OP.
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You'd be surprised what these studios (certainly from my experience in music) cost out when you're in these professional places, for want of a better expression. Some even have the nerve to charge file transfer costs....

Lionsbridge also did the localisation so maybe they negotiated a package. I do also know that some actors were not union, Corey said so himself in one of the Zoom calls he did. Greg Chun would have probably commanded a decent wage given his name in the VO world.

Without concrete information we will never know and as I said this was based on a quick google plus some personal experience. Its certainly not gospel but I can see how costs in this area quickly spiral.

I also recall Bill Black saying they did it as cheaply as they could. 1 line 1 take stuff, minimal edits etc.
 
danielmann861 said:
The problem for me remains with both lack of direction and stiff translations. I'm not a dub hater by any means. Actually, in some ways, I prefer the Persona 4 English dub over the Japanese dub and would point to that as being a rather well done dub in both translation and direction.
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Absolutely this. I think one of the reasons the english dub is awkward is the dialog system in shenmue might be too hardcoded to the japanese dub which means that the english one need to preserve the same NPC interactions and I believe japanese has a certain way of doing dialogs that is weird to English speakers. I believe that japanese mannerism was also one of the reasons that snake in metal gear solid always repeated what the other person said which, if I am correct, is a way for Japanese speakers to show you are following the conversation.
 
spud1897 said:
You'd be surprised what these studios (certainly from my experience in music) cost out when you're in these professional places, for want of a better expression. Some even have the nerve to charge file transfer costs....

Lionsbridge also did the localisation so maybe they negotiated a package. I do also know that some actors were not union, Corey said so himself in one of the Zoom calls he did. Greg Chun would have probably commanded a decent wage given his name in the VO world.

Without concrete information we will never know and as I said this was based on a quick google plus some personal experience. Its certainly not gospel but I can see how costs in this area quickly spiral.

I also recall Bill Black saying they did it as cheaply as they could. 1 line 1 take stuff, minimal edits etc.
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I get that like many things, it’s all speculation, but am wary of posts suggesting that the VO cost $500k - $1m and the impact that they could have on fan perception of the series (and this in turn the series itself) moving forward.

Fans are clearly divided on the English dub and it’s easy to see why, but given the minimal impact having an English dub likely has on the overall budget (which is probably more than offset by the number of people who wouldn’t pick it up if there was no English voiceover), I really can’t see much of an argument for scrapping it.

If budget is really that tight that one of the dubs needs to go, there’s a much better argument to be made for scrapping the Japanese dub. Although superior in quality, from an immersion point of view, Ryo is the only character post Shenmue 1 who would be speaking in Japanese whilst many Chinese people speak English (certainly a lot more than speak Japanese at least). Ryo would also have studied the English language at high school as all Japanese high school students do (although the quality of teaching leaves quite a bit to be desired) and so it would be far more likely that Japanese and Chinese people would communicate in English than any other language.

From a marketing point of view, only about one quarter of all Shenmue sales are in Japan and so it would again make sense to prioritize the English language dub (perhaps some of the money saved on the Japanese dub could be used to hire a decent director to improve the English dub). Sure there are some westerners who prefer the Japanese dub, but this won’t be the case for casual players (who probably haven’t even heard the Japanese dub) and it seems that Yu would like to target this group while moving forward with the series.
 
Yeah, Yakuza ditched the english dub because of this that it is more popular in Japan.

And Shenmue can ditch the Japanese dub since it is more popular in west.
 
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